No more expat pilots in India after June´08? [Archive]

bugg smasher

14th Mar 2008, 02:34

As with any expat arrangement, the contracts will reflect the current needs of the carrier, referenced to the absence of suitably qualified local pilots, and said airline’s ability (and connectedness) to justify same to Ministry in Charge of Foreign Corruption and Domestic Purity, absent any prior connections by marriage, blood relation, or erstwhile dalliance, convenient or otherwise.

That notwithstanding, the local pilot population will always demand termination of ‘expert’ pilots at the earliest opportunity, said opportunity being their first landing that does not, in fact, burst more than 50 percent of available tires, or frighten the majority of their passengers into considering transport to destination by alternative terrestrial means.

Call me cynical. It’s a tough world out there, my heart goes out to the aspiring pilots that put up with it all in the name of aviation. Ne’er was there a crueler mistress.

Kato747

14th Mar 2008, 04:41

You've obviously never met my previous wife!

:ugh:

411A - was that ACMI opr8r perchance AAI?

411A

14th Mar 2008, 05:24

411A - was that ACMI opr8r perchance AAI?

Negative...it was CBJ.
The Indian DGCA was on the take from Air India, and got caught, red handed.

Walker Texas Ranger

14th Mar 2008, 05:55

I was supposed to be in India this past November as an FO. I have been waiting around for a PC as nobody was willing to pay for it... Last week when the jerkoffs in India agreed to pay for my PC (it only took since August to figure this out), the DGCA banned all expat FO's. Oh well, I am now going to CA upgrade anyday now instead (so I am being told)...

From what I hear, the local FO's are real winners! They cant do ANYTHING! Trust me I know from previous experience as I was probably their flight instructor a few years ago...

saadnaeem

14th Mar 2008, 06:32

Ahh you know what they say ?
You're only as good as your'e instructor :P
lollll:p

Wyle E Coyote

14th Mar 2008, 06:34

I turned down an indian gig a while ago......the more I read about those who didn't, the happier I am about my decision.

You can't blame a country for wanting to employ their own people, but when decisions are made based on what is written on your passport, or the colour of your skin, it becomes a little concerning. I saw far too much of that in Africa.

driving may be a better option:)

transilvana

14th Mar 2008, 06:46

I saw many indian pilots get killed on 89-91 in US when I was there on traininng and later as FI, everyweek a couple of them. No english, no technical staff, sorry to say this but I don´t trust them.

ZFT

14th Mar 2008, 06:59

You can't blame a country for wanting to employ their own people

Is this so really so unusual?

No matter where you reside/work, apart from one’s own country, you require:-

EU – Need correct passport or right to work
US - Need correct passport or right to work
Rest of the world - Need correct passport or right to work
India – See above

Wyle E Coyote

14th Mar 2008, 07:40

I quite agree, however it's a matter of having suitable candidates.

All of these countries also recognise when there is a skills shortage (perhaps with the exception on the US), and encourage foreign labour until enough of their own countrymen make the grade.

Arbitrarily cutting out foreign labour in an industry where experience is so important to safety is a cause for concern.

Walker Texas Ranger

14th Mar 2008, 07:52

Does anybody know if this means no more expats entering India? Or does this mean getting rid of the current expats as well?

Jazbag

14th Mar 2008, 08:49

WTR

Try not to quote hearsay, it reduces your credibility to childish -not professional...

Am a trainer on the Airbus 320 and now 330. I can assure you that the local FOs are every bit as good or better then the expats.

In addition they are on a general scale very hard working and more important can understand the local lingo...

Many Indians even Captains are NEVER employed by any EU or US airline inspite of having all the requirements and much higher experience...

Need I say more???

JB

Walker Texas Ranger

14th Mar 2008, 09:31

Jazbag,

My sources are very credible as they are my friends who I have many hours flown with and they give me the daily update on Skype.

250 hr wonderkids that leaned to fly at a pilot factory at an uncontrolled airport are not ready for a jet! I have prior experience teaching at a pilot facotry that was contracted to teach Indians how to fly and then send them back to go fly a jet. No matter what, they would walk out with a "license to learn"... Thats the nature of a pilot factory. Especially one where the examiners own the school... There is a reason why schools like this get these contracts!

I am not bashing Indians. I am bashing the DGCA for allowing such inexperience in the cockpit. Maybe when they get to you in your A330, they have figured it out by now? Or maybe they just hide behind your autoland funtion? Im sorry my jet doesnt have that ability!

ManaAdaSystem

14th Mar 2008, 11:06

As for the standard of Indian pilots; I've flown with Indian Captains as well as Indian Copilots. All with a very high standard in knowledge and skill. Friendly and eager to pick up any "nuggets" you might have to offer. The occational w@nker, but that's fairly universal.

On the downside, some of them showed an unusual willingness to bend the rules, especially duty limitations.

Having said that, the Indian aviation boom is producing some very low skilled/experienced copilots. Some of which are operating in a "cruise only" capacity on Indian jets. No take off or landings. Bit of a worry, as the Indian airspace/airports/weather can be very challenging. Not the place to fly single pilot, so to speak.

goldenstate

14th Mar 2008, 11:53

Ok guys this threat was open to discuss about the possibilty of not being able to go to India after June as an expat....

Can anyone throw some light on this?? there´s a lot of people waiting to go and we are starting to freak out....

Regards.

Dream Land

14th Mar 2008, 12:03

250 hr wonderkids that leaned to fly at a pilot factory at an uncontrolled airport are not ready for a jet! I have prior experience teaching at a pilot facotry that was contracted to teach Indians how to fly and then send them back to go fly a jet. No matter what, they would walk out with a "license to learn"... Thats the nature of a pilot factory. Especially one where the examiners own the school... There is a reason why schools like this get these contracts!Please let's not bash India's pilots, as someone already mentioned, you are only as good as the training. The UK and many Asian companies use ab Initio students directly entering the Airbus without any problems, flew with one the other day, all aspects of the five hour flight handled well, since it was the first time I had flown with him I congratulated him on a great flight, by the way, how much experience do you have? The answer was 800 TT. :eek: I couldn't even spell airplane when I had that much flying time. :{

Jazbag

14th Mar 2008, 13:14

WTR

One exercise which i always make young FOs do without which i cannot clear anyone is pilot incapacitation. Most clear this test without any shade of doubt. Some need retraining both expats and Indians. Where the Indians score is following the staccato (rapid fire) English used in Mumbai and Delhi ATC.

I have trained pilots from South America to Australia and they all have basic skills but they generally wait to be told... but the locals get together and prepare on their own and ask. Here it is a communication issue.

No comments on DGCA.... except that they want to be JAR compliant soon.

JB

scubawasp

14th Mar 2008, 14:23

Dear All,

We received an email from XXXX this morning confirming that the DGCA are putting a stop to foreign co- pilots from June 1st 2008.

The reasons for this are supposed to be political due to the number of unemployed Indian nationals looking for an F/O position.

Initially we understood that provided a XXXX was based trained and security cleared before June 1 they could continue to fly on a temporary validation for 3 months. Any XXXX already in India with a temporary validation could extend to a further 9 months on passing Air Law. However we now understand that the DGCA want all foreign co-pilots to cease flying on June 1.

This is a considerable problem for XXXX as they are short of pilots. We are investigating any work arounds that we can but as of the moment we must assume that June 1 is the final date.

Like you we are very disappointed at this development. It is completely out of the control of XXXX and XXXX and may have been brought about by political pressure in an election year.

We will keep you informed of any developments.

Edited to say that I'm due to fly out tomorrow!!!

orangedriver

14th Mar 2008, 15:39

Hmmm...this could become quite interesting. Lets see what "political pressure" we'll see when the jets are sitting around on the tarmac without crew. Money talks....

GSMini

14th Mar 2008, 15:54

As far as I know, expat FO won´t join any Indian carrier from June the 1st, but the ones that are flying here already, will last until their validation expires. But not a forced expiry! But hey..now this new rumour begins..all expat validations will expire on May 31st...

Have the Indian Govt or DGCA measured the impact this new law will have on Indian carriers if they forced them to comply with it right now??

Or..is it just a matter of money???..you know..
Regards:}

JW411

14th Mar 2008, 15:56

I do have experience of being a contract pilot on the Indian sub-continent.

I doubt that this pronouncement will ever happen, but if it does, it will be for quite a short time.

When aircraft stop moving and things look like coming to a halt, money will change hands at a high level and the situation will be reversed.

Situation normal, I would say.

Just make sure that before you agree to go back, you increase your fee by at least 25% for your contract will absolutely NOT last for ever!

vilas

16th Mar 2008, 11:19

Huck

16th Mar 2008, 13:37

An aeroplane like A 320 does not demand manual flying skills of older planes.

I almost hate to do this to you on your first post, but:

click on this..... (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sd2AoYtTcFg)

(and welcome to PPrune!)

Green Guard

16th Mar 2008, 14:47

J.O.

16th Mar 2008, 15:37

Ex pat employment in any country is purely based on non availability of local skill.An aeroplane like A 320 does not demand manual flying skills of older planes. New generation computer savy kid with aptitude for flying will be comfortable in this plane.It gives time to develop other essential aspects of flying.Most of the young ones I have been flying with are quiet competent and keen as they should be.Some Ex pat captains also have been found wanting just as anybody else and have lost their jobs.India has its biases but is a very tolerant country.

You obviously have no concept of the complexity of the job. If India continues down its proposed path, mark my words, the results will be disastrous. People in a certain other Asian country used to speak the same way, until their terrible safety record led to an order to, in effect, pad their numbers with expats. The net result is a near perfect safety record over the past several years. It is no coincidence as to why this has been achieved. The expats have helped them to adapt to the complexities of major airline ops. While it's far from perfect, they certainly have improved markedly.

getsetgo

16th Mar 2008, 16:00

Walker Texas Ranger

some schools in USA gave licences( FAA) to students without even doing actual flying on single engine. when those schools got black listed in ICAO countries,they changed there name and kept on doing the same bussiness.
at least this new system of training and issueing the licence to learn is still :ok:

getsetgo

16th Mar 2008, 16:07

HUCK

nice vedeo
some body was flying the aeroplane:ok:

Sky Dancer

17th Mar 2008, 12:45

well Walker maybe I should tell you my experiences of flying with American FOs.....the only thing one of them could do was Goddamn ..what the hell is going on here ?????he just couldn't keep up with the aircraft or the environment....and the less said about his technical knowledge of the aircraft the better...the only thing he could say was...jezz that's for the engineers....just remember your race does not make you a good pilot..it;s your personal ability...and I agree there are Indian guys and girls who don;t deserve to sit on the flight deck one bit but I'm sure there are Americans of the same breed strutting around....

goosensheep

17th Mar 2008, 14:10

Well don't want to comment on Indian pilots vs expats.
Just got my contract cancelled today. Was supposed to leave soon.
Was told this is a final decision and will not be changed.

GSMini

17th Mar 2008, 17:16

What airline were you working for? PM me if you want.

Regards!:}

warlock45

18th Mar 2008, 12:13

Senior Indian airline executive has just confirmed that this is idle speculation that arose after some questions about security with non-Indian pilots, it's not going to happen ( he says )

vilas

18th Mar 2008, 12:48

I do not know what your opinion is based on. Mine is based on my experience as a check captain on the B 747 and A 300 and close to 1500 hrs on A320 in command and having flown the good old DC3 in the valleys of the Himalayan mountains in military flying and HS 748.It is another thing that standards get diluted when there is rapid expansion.

getsetgo

19th Mar 2008, 00:57

transilvana

you are talking about astronaut Kalpana Chawla indian born girl who died in columbia disaster among other colegues.
or
you work at morgue?

rewfly

19th Mar 2008, 02:09

That's tobad, heard a yank tonight on a T7 out of JFK

DesiPilot

19th Mar 2008, 04:26

Well, the ruling is for expat First Officers and not expat Captain or TRI/TRE. I personally do not see anything wrong with it. Yes, India is protecting the local co-pilots but you cannot say that they are kicking out experience first officers. Some of the expat FO's are also low time pilots and they have come to India to build time.

Now the biggest question is if June'08 is a feasible date? There is no way airlines can train locals and complete their type rating and have them flying as an FO by June'08. We Indians love paperwork and I can bet my life on it that it will take close to 6 months to train an ab-initio 200 hour pilot to sit on the right seat of A320/B737/ATR.

So my guess is that very soon you will see extension to this rule. Then again DGCA is very unpredictable; they have recently stopped renewing the RT license for Indian pilots who've had their RT licenses issued on the basis of foreign RT.

Good luck to all FO's.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Govt_tells_airlines_not_to_hire_foreign_co-pilots/rssarticleshow/2838101.cms

Sky Dancer

19th Mar 2008, 07:12

Hi Desipilot....You are right the local FOs should be given an opportunity instead of expats who are here to build time...BTW the powers that be at the DGCA and the Dept. of Telecom have made a few changes to the RT ruling...if you have the RT and CPL from the same state which should be a commonwealth country then no problem...in addition they have extended the deadline for the guys who don't qualify under this rule...

Wingswinger

19th Mar 2008, 07:30

New generation computer savy kid with aptitude for flying will be comfortable in this plane.

Priceless. Absolutely priceless. Here we go again - the Children of the Green Line who will follow it straight into a mountain.

Basic rules:
1. You can fly an Airbus just like any other aeroplane.
2. If it doesn't do what you want or expect, take over.

And what will happen if they are faced with a failure that leaves them in alternate law, direct law or with no autothrust? There is no substitute for basic skills and basic airmanship. Some things will never change.

powerstall

19th Mar 2008, 10:30

computer generation? or is it because of automation?.. those are two very different facts... can anybody say that their brand spanking new airbus or boeing 737NG fresh out from the factory will always be 100% operational... maybe you forgot about a little thing called "REALITY" my friend... anything can happen once you're up their flying on FL310 or 1,500 ft. AGL... can you use your ECAM/GNSS etc... if you have a full DC/ACW GEN loss? or how about a total hydraulic failure? there goes another new plane written-off.. sad to say but how many new planes that have been in an "incident" as what they say had very hard landings or "bouncy-bouncy" effect as what other indians call it... experience is the best teacher Mr. Vilas.. and basic flying skills are great tools when the need arises... :=

Norman Stanley Fletcher

19th Mar 2008, 10:49

Vilas - Your comments are most unfortunate, and if your experience is as you claim you should surely know better.

I train 200hr cadets who come to our airline straight from a top quality training scheme that is very regulated and controlled. Moreover, their initial screening process is very thorough and the candidates we end up with are the best that can be produced with around 200 hours experience. It is, nonetheles, a huge ask to hope these newbie pilots will be good at flying an Airbus with that level of experience. It is universally recognised that these otherwise very good people have one huge weakness, and that is basic handling skills. We accept that initially due to the other qualities they bring, but there is no getting over it - they are significantly less comfortable than experienced pilots in the handling department - particularly during the landing phase. We should not be surprised at that, because if it was easy you could just go down the Job Centre and pick up a few likely lads to do it on the cheap. Like any company who employs inexperienced pilots we apply strict operating limits until they are more used to the environment. To suggest that the Airbus is easier to handle than other aircraft is a nonsense - what is true to say is that the Airbus is very different. It nonetheless requires specific handling techniques which must be learnt quickly to avoid big problems. The now-legendary Lufthansa film shown earlier in the thread is a clear warning to the unwary - mess with the Airbus near the ground in bad weather and it will bite you very badly.

In my company the majority of our pilots have flown other jets. Every single one says they prefer the 737 to an Airbus in gusty winds, because they feel 'more in control'. It took me a long time to get the hang of the Airbus in these extreme conditions, and I am still cautious several thousand of hours later when faced with big winds. In my opinion, a young and inexperienced pilot is vulnerable to making signficant handling errors for a couple of years after finishing training. That is not to knock them in any way, but it is vital to recognise the importance of experience in general, and nearly as importantly, experience on type.

I have no idea what the truth is regarding the situation in India, and I have no doubt that experienced Indian pilots are every bit as good as their Western colleagues. What I do know, however, is that experience is everything. If the Indians decide to fill their cockpits with inexperienced crews for protectionist reasons, it will ultimately come back to haunt them in a big way.

India is a wonderful nation emerging from the third world and making huge strides to catch up the West. As yet, it is still struggling with issues such as endemic corruption. This means decisions that are clear cut in safety terms may be overriden by the application of cash to placate vested interests. We in the West have many times had to learn from countless tragic errors involving our land, sea and air transport systems. Our air transport is now extremely safe, and although not perfect has much to offer interested parties. I hope the Indians will learn from our errors rather than having to face the tragedies we have before puting safety first, second and third.

Inspector Clueless

19th Mar 2008, 18:14

NSF,

Very wise words.I am in India training Airbus pilots and I agree totally with your post.

The rationale behind this decision is sound in the long run-however to replace the existing FO pilot base with 250 hour cadets in this environment is frankly absurd by giving immediate notice is blunt and crass.Why not give "advance notice" of say 6 months,12 months.

The manner in which this directive was made reflects just how outof touch with reality the DGCA are-I see absolutley no chance whatsover of them becoming JAA compliant.For anyone who knows the machinations of life here they will understand,the performance to get licensed and the archaic route any hoopeful ATPL must take is mind numbing.

My trainees are keen to learn-but several have nothing except an A320 TR and a new licence-and the monsoon here hasnt even started.And as you state the landing is very challenging for them.

You cannot replace experience and many of these foreign FOs have experience from flying turboprops,twins,flying instructors-theyve been doing it for longer than the newbie local Indian,thats all.

The 320 near the ground in challenging weather is a skill and those skills dont come out of a packet contrary to what the DGCA and the individuals who pushed this decsion clearly believe.

It is a ridiculous decision,ill conceived and delivered without thought,some airlines will park aircraft as a result and it is only a matter oftime until the inevitable will happen.

Madness-and I cannot see it happening without significant damage to the standing of aviation in Indian aviation in every respect.:ouch:

rduarte

19th Mar 2008, 19:33

Just to have an idea , IAF lost more than 500 military airplanes in the 80-90.
And from what i saw , with indians trainees,during my flight training , back in the US, a big tragedy will happen. :rolleyes:

Sky Dancer

20th Mar 2008, 07:47

rduarte,

If we were to go by your statistics then the IAF would have ceased to exist in 1995.A loss of 500 aircraft would have been enough to wipe out the operational fighter aircraft of the IAF.As a word of friendly advice, it is important to have well researched and documented facts before you go on to make a statement.

You would have been more correct if you had said the aircraft attrition rate in the IAF is high.But that claim should also take into account many other factors associated with the Indian military.

The views of Norman & Inspector Clueless are very accurate and I could not agree with them more.I am an Indian and I am proud of it but I would be the first to admit that there are inherent flaws in the system and the biggest of all is this.The policy makers have NEVER been able to come out with a policy that would serve the industry well for the next 25 years.If they were we would have never been in the mess we are today.And this applied to both military and civil aviation.

The best example would be the latest set of regulations by the Powers That Be..I agree that Indian nationals should be given an opportunity but they should be qualified and motivated.If you take todays scenario , you have young foreign pilots with low time who couldn't get into their local carriers , pay for their endorsement and get a job in an Indian carrier..they look at gaining experience here and moving back to wherever they came from...now why should we allow that to happen when you have an Indian national available ???

On the other hand if there is a foreign FO who has 500 hrs on type , he would be asset to an airline and deserves his position...

Now there is another problem in India ...there are foreign FOs who could not get command in their countries due to various reasons and are looking getting their command in India...is that fair...

And through it all the Indian DGCA and the Ministry are not helping either by lowering the standards in terms of educational qualifications and flying hours required for obtaining an Indian CPL...right now there are 1500 Indians looking for jobs...by 2009 there will be about 5000 looking for jobs and the number is growing...it is the responsibility of the DGCA to ensure that standards are maintained and for the Ministry to ensure that time tested policies are established..unfortunately none of that is happening....

Back to your comments on race..I have said it before and I say it again..your race does not make you a good/bad pilot.Through my career I have had the privilege of flying with pilots of various nationalities and back grounds....and I have realised one fundamental truth...a good pilot is made by the quality of training he has obtained and also his personal ability....If you want to get regional I can tell you this as well...in general I have observed that the pilots who have been trained in Europe under the CAA / JAA system have shown a very high standard in all areas...

standman

20th Mar 2008, 12:07

I have operated with Indian aircrew in the late 80's. I must say that by and large, the level of professionalism shown by these pilots during their tenure with my airline was nothing short of exemplary. On the same score, the other expats, who were mainly from Oz, were also just as good, give or take a few. Culturally, of course there were many differences that caused a problem or two. All in all, it was an enriching experience, and I did not see any difference in levels of competency between one shade of skin and another, so lets just keep race out of this.
As for airline FOs with 200+ hrs, scary... But aviation is growing at a phenomenal rate in these regions, and there just is no other recourse. But my airline has also been following this practice, with limited ill-effect (unless you count my grey hairs!). On the same score, some of these guys are a lot more help and show a much higher level of competency compared to some highly experienced FOs. What's the word for it, aptitude? :}
Regarding the termination of services of expat FOs, I believe it is inevitable. Wrong move at short notice, but nonetheless inevitable.

getsetgo

20th Mar 2008, 18:53

Some fresh CPLs going to get in to the business, its not easy walk for them or to feel they are in comfortable zone, as no body will compromise on training and safety.
This abrupt notice is not good (harsh).
It should have been…. those who are joining by June can continue and after June no further induction. Something like that.

Fresh CPL intake
As in India two captains can fly together, but 2 f/o cannot.
So short term cockpits will have lots of flying with two captains (cockpit total experience very high) while the fresh CPL holder meets the ICAO standards. And minimum DGCA requirements laid down by the civil aviation authority.and learn flying.
1. It takes care of many posters in various forums who had dreams about the wx, inexperience, accidents Metals, debris and dead bodies.
(Reflects nothing but negative attitude.SADISTIC ATTITUDE.)

2. it takes care of government duty to provide jobs to the citizens

These CPL candidates were not born with the wings, but INDIAN BY BIRTH.
So it is the duty of the government to provide them work as they have right to work.
Some will be good pilots, some average, some bad and some will get eliminates in training.
Like any where in the world…. Government provides job to the citizens
Citizens pay 40% back to the government. and if these CPL candidates start paying back to the government 40% from two years now……….look how much business government has done just by one order of June 2008 exit.

Inspector clueless the show will go on; no aircraft will be on ground due to crew shortage, there will be more captains coming in from all over the globe. (Only captains in future)
The views of Norman are correct.
Abrupt exit of expat f/o thou sad, but I have feeling that it is good for them as well, because they were living on hopes and promises of the companies (dirty work)

Sky dancer There is no 100% perfect systems, accept good things with iota of bad.
I Think Honkong can give insight on JAA/CAA/ICAO
Because it recently joined ICAO (before JAR & CAA)

DesiPilot

20th Mar 2008, 19:05

Wow, I cannot believe it. First sensible post by getsetgo. I guess you took my advice mate and paid a visit to MG Road.

Just minor mistake in your post, no where in the world the authoroties allow 2 FO's to fly for short haul flight. Some countries require that the Captain is allowed to fly from left seat only. Unlike DGCA that allows one way command. Not a very safe practice if you ask me (yepp more experience in the cockpit but more ego as well. You really need great CRM in there for things to go smoothly) but thats only my view and it doesn't count :eek:

getsetgo

20th Mar 2008, 19:17

desi pilot

but 2 f/o cannot
that is what i have written
you need at least one captain who can take up the commercial plane. captain can occupy left or right depanding upon his experience but f/o only right seat.am i correct?

Allan L

20th Mar 2008, 22:48

duty of the government to provide them work

Wow! What a way to run an air service!:{

airvigator

21st Mar 2008, 05:59

It is quite unfortunate that the DGCA has come up with the rule not allowing expat FO's to fly after June'2008. And i also agree with the fact that there are a lot of these FO'S who's livelyhood depends on this Job. However, I am a fresh 250 hr Indian trainee pilot and after having spent 50k USD on my training, i am arranging finances to pay up another 35k USD for my type rating. And as sadistic or mean as this may sound, the news of this new rule from DGCA bought a smile to my face. I guess they should have just chosen a better way to introduce this rule, like may be give the expat FO's a 6 month or a 1 year period.

There are a rising number of unemployed trained Indian Pilots today and a lot of them are my batch mates. The figures, mind you, are catapulting to the top daily. I dont see any reason why a ''DEVELOPING'' country with the 2nd largest population in the world and a booming aviation sector should face a problem like the above.

goldenstate

21st Mar 2008, 11:10

People inside the indian airlines say that it is only a recommendation, not a rule, i even know guys doing their sim refresh in April-May... I don´t know what to think about this, i mean, if they do that, at least one airline it´s going to be force to store some of their aircrafts for a long time...not to talk about receiving new ones...and this does not sound smart for the indian development. We are a lot of people who have been waiting for a long time to go to India because of the lack of TRI´s and now we find ourselves with this scary situation... It´s nice if they want to take care of their own pilots, but not this way and it only sounds to me like money talks, at least that´s what we all hope...

gulia

21st Mar 2008, 13:02

I agree with you if India put some restrictions then it becomes news and other countries are doing it for years

powerstall

21st Mar 2008, 17:26

....only in India, Incredible India. :ugh:

Sky Dancer

21st Mar 2008, 18:29

Allan mate,,,i've got some fair bit of experience..could i get a job in Australia with a leading airline ?????

Allan L

23rd Mar 2008, 10:34

Lots of Aussies don't seem to be able to get work with the majors either.

But it certainly ain't (in my view) the responsibility of government to arrange it for them!

Sky Dancer

23rd Mar 2008, 14:42

certainly not...but the Australian government ensures that people like me don't get a job in an Australian airline....the only time they relaxed the rules was at the time of the dispute....after that it was back to the protectionist regime..its the same story everywhere mate...

Aceninja

25th Mar 2008, 02:10

Does the rule apply to ppl with an Overseas Indian Citizenship? I am originally from India, currently doing my flight training in the US but would love to come back to India and work/live there. My passport however is issued by the USA, but I do have an OCI permit which allows me to work and reside in India...does this count? Please advice.

airvigator

25th Mar 2008, 05:20

I guess u'll have to run that by an airline and see if they are hiring you on the basis of ur OCI. Apparently they are apprehensive. I know of someone (an indian) who gave up the chance to get a New Zealand P.R. jUst so that his job was secure in an Indian Airline.

Aceninja

25th Mar 2008, 05:49

I was kinda worried about that. I'm hoping they will treat the OCI as a PR card and let me work. Does anyone else have any info on this? Anyone out there flying on an OCI card?

av8r76

25th Mar 2008, 06:14

I can't believe at the vitriol directed towards the Indian authorities. By no means do I agree with a significant number of 'bulls' decreed by the DGCA, I find this one to be logical. I don't see the US or the EU allowing any non citizens/residents to fly any commercial airliners under their jurisdiction.

Why this animosity against this Indian ruling? It smacks of racism and discrimination. This ruling DOES NOT AFFECT P1's/TRI/TRE's etc. Only FO's. And why not? With the lines at the offices getting longer, can you blame a government for protecting it's citizens' interests. Anyone saying otherwise smacks of hypocrisy.

Indian airlines have been operating for decades with 250 hr wonders and so far have had no catastrophes related directly to the experience or lack thereof of the FO. So I see no logic stating that an accident is waiting to happen.

There is a dire shortage of experienced type rated crew for the left seat, a shortage of FO's there is not. The DGCA is not restriciting the entry of Captains, just first officers. There are plenty of guys and girls waiting to get online with these airlines. Leave 'em be. If the airlines want to hire a 200 hr guy, let them decide that. If market conditions require that then so be it. Ask anyone who go their licenses in the mid 90's about the job situation in India and the opportunites that could have been grabbed in the US /EU but could not be because of labour restrictions. Now that the situation is somewhat favourable for Indians, people are up in arms about the same restrictions being placed on expat FO hiring. Hypocrisy at it's best.:suspect:

Sky Dancer

25th Mar 2008, 13:44

Well said buddy....

goldenstate

26th Mar 2008, 00:37

All right, i totally agree with that, but what happens with all the guys (believe me, we´re a lot) who have been type rated only because we were supposed to go and fly there? who have been wating for months?, even leaving our previous jobs? i mean, we were about to leave and sudenly we find ourselves with this crazy situation!!??

Every country should take care of their own citizens, i really think so, but doing it like this, they´re playing with our hopes, our passions and with our lives.

powerstall

26th Mar 2008, 00:48

As far as my experience flying for a big cargo company based in India, when they need you bad, they will treat you like a god, fatten you up in terms of money etc, then afterwards, when they have used you up and no longer need your services, trust me, they will drop you like a hot potato. :=

good thing i had a back-up plan. :E

just my experience worth two cents, :ugh:

getsetgo

27th Mar 2008, 13:15

desi pilot

more experience in the cockpit but more ego as well. You really need great CRM in there for things to go smoothly) but thats only my view and it doesn't count :eek:

i don"t think any professional carries his ego from home all the way to work place.

my view about professionals is that they concentrate on job in hand rather than having Egoistic attitude at work.

mirkorak

2nd Apr 2008, 15:13

This is bull. They are lazy and only 10 % are worth of try. Rest are collecting money and nothing else. If expats go just a matter of time how many accidents will be. Even now you have one incident a day. So good luck who wants to come I am going out soon.

Kingfisher320

26th Jun 2008, 05:41

Me: When was the last time you did a night landing?
FO: Last night.
Me: Ok..you have the controls for the landing.

Few minutes later...On a visual app..you're little high....Look you're too high. I have the controls. I asked him what happend? FO: Aircraft wasn't going down. What the hell? This guys has several thousand hours on the 320. Totally clueless, sits there and say nothing, with a stupid look on his face.

Jazbag..Remember those good old days...when Airbus took the planes away from you guys?...why?

av8r76

26th Jun 2008, 10:52

KF320:
How about mentioning all those times when the FO did a bang up job of getting the ac on the ground. Some people are just not meant to be in the cockpit.. it could be an 'experienced' FO as well as a so called type rated expat.

Painting a whole category of pilots which such a broad stroke doesn't validate your anecdotes in any shape or form.

Maybe you're not a TRI/TRE... but don't you think a little advice and instructing would've helped the bloke do a half decent job the next time you guys fly together?

I pick the brains of my captains local and expat sometimes to their annoyance. But almost never has a captain not availed of an opportunity to train or coach me to do a better job next time. The only one time that happened was with a curt I'll do my job.. you do yours... and that was from an expat. Based on that anecdote I can easily conclude that all expats are tightwads who are here to make sure the other guy never learns.