QR fuel policy

[CEJM]

First of all, please don't let this become a Qatar bashing thread. My question and story is in no way intended to offend anybody working for Qatar or the crew involved. If anybody feels offended than I will happily remove the thread.


Last week while we were parked on the apron at Male (VRMM) airport we were a bit suprised by the actions of an inbound Qatar A320.

First of all Male has no radar and relies on procedures to be followed.

During the initial approach the QR flight was informed that he was number three in sequence and given an EAT. Both aircraft ahead were slower turboprop aircraft. QR was instructed to take up the RAXON hold till its EAT.

When entering the hold the (sounded like) Captain came on frequency and told ATC in a very condecending manner that he couldn't stay in the hold till his EAT because he had not enough fuel.

The discussion continued for a little while before the Captain? got angry at the controller and asked to speak to his manager. Just after this another QR (flying overhead) came on frequency and asked the QR flight if he had taken some extra fuel or just had minimum fuel loaded. The guy replied that he departed with mionimum fuel. And had to make an approach now or otherwise he would have to divert.

The number 2 in sequence gave up is position in the landing sequence to let the QR flight land.

Can somebody please tell me what the fuel policy is at QR? Is it normal policy to depart with minimum fuel or do they give the captain a bit of flexibility? And how is this minimum fuel calculated? It seems a bit strange to depart to an island in the middle on nowhere with the closest diversion an hours flying time away. Add to this that at times the time spend in the hold can be rather long.

thanks.

[PositiveRate876]

This sounds like a personal problem (Captain's possible poor judgement, and his lack of R/T professionalism) and not an airline problem.

[Qatari515]

This is a very tricky issue at QR.

There is a policy whereby dispatch will give you a certain amount of flight plan fuel. This is based on statistics and usually is sufficient they say.

In case the crew wants to add extra fuel, the captain of the flight has to discuss this with dispatch! In case extra fuel is uplifted, a raport has to be issued explaining why...

Myself I dont give a damn about this policy, but many of the newer colleagues follow this policy blindly!

With scenarios like this one as a result!

A very professional 5 star airline, isnt it?

[Smirnoff N21]

CEJM, can't tell for sure what happened, you'd be better off asking the Cpt. of that flight. By the way, why didn't you do it?
In general, to my knowledge, there's no problem to stay and consume some of the alternate fuel (VCBI if I'm not mistaken) provided weather minima is fulfilled. Commander is the final authority however and perhaps he did have a sound reason to act the way he did.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[A300Man]

Interesting post. Also interesting to note that VRMM approach gets so busy, with 3 aircraft lined up. Is that a regular occurrence at Male? Any time I have been there, we have been the only aircraft on the ramp, from arrival to departure. I have never seen another aircraft there. I guess ít's very much a seasonal airport??

[JABAL]

A colleague told me if the exxtra fuel taken is justified!! N0 action taken!!!!otherwise is brought to the Attention of someone:rolleyes:
It's all to do with a few bad apples screwing it for the rest by talking unreasonable uplifts (4tons plus)

[loc22550]

...interesting....if i knew Exactly what´s gone happens during my flight (but i don't have a Crystal ball...), than yes i may take minimum or what ever i need exactly...but without crystal ball..why should i put unecessary pressure on myself by taking minimum fuel and just hoping that everything will be according my flight plan during the flight....
As far as i known Fuel is one of the few (if not the only )think that will keep me in the air!!
Unfortunatly we still have some colleagues scared to take extra fuel..yes scared.......:ugh::ugh:
But on the other hand and to be fully honest, if.. it was a A-320 on such a "long "flight expecially if you are at MZFW...you won´t be able to carry that much extra fuel due to your MTOW or MLDW limitation...

[PositiveRate876]

VRMM approach gets so busy, with 3 aircraft lined up. Is that a regular occurrence at Male?

It is during the high season. The ATC is procedural and the most common approach a DME arc for ILS 36. A/C have to make a 180 at the end and backtrack to the small ramp. If more than 3 widebodies are there the fourth one will have to push-back onto the runway to get out of the ramp.

Adjacent to RWY 36 is one of the world's busiest floatplane harbours. Nearest alternate VCBI an hour away.

It would have to be a ver good reason not to take additional fuel.

[Smirnoff N21]

During the initial approach the QR flight was informed that he was number three in sequence and given an EAT. Both aircraft ahead were slower turboprop aircraft. QR was instructed to take up the RAXON hold till its EAT. Two aircraft in approach, how long is that gonna take 10 max 15 min if at all. With the weather up to the applicable minima and ALT fuel for another hour I don't see any reason not to stay at destination and burn the ALT fuel. No stress at all unless some technical malfunctions warranted urgency.
As for departing with OFP fuel, that's quite an industry standard with most majors meanwhile, of course PIC can always override. However doing so one must be certain of actions in case of.....that of course implies good knowledge of the routes flown and procedures. That's the Achilles heel of QR not necessarily applicable to that particular flight. Enthusiasm and corporate identification won't and can't be enforced, it's something very carefully cultivated throughout decades of fruitful collaboration. This is where the most money can be saved. Think about it.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Gillegan]

It's all to do with a few bad apples screwing it for the rest by talking unreasonable uplifts (4tons plus)

Since when is "4T plus" necessarily an unreasonable uplift? Qatar flies some pretty big metal and depending on the alternates, weather, remoteness of the airfield and just how 3rd world (or 1st world - LHR, JFK) the destination really is, "4T plus" just might be a starting point. If Qatar is anything like my carrier (very close by), the dispatchers are not licensed and the sole legal authority for the dispatch of the flight is the Captain.

[loc22550]

Quote""i don´t see any reason NOT to stay at destination and burn the ALT fuel......???????"":uhoh:
Really well i hope the preceeding traffic will not crash on the runway, because then you can just prepare your swim suit as well as the ditching procedure:ouch:.
The only case you can burn your ALT fuel(normal circumstance) in Q.A when you have only one runway at DEST (like VRMM) is when you have an ALT within 30' +..wx......don´t think it´s the case for VRMM??
Or maybe i missed something...

[Smirnoff N21]

You're absolutely right loc. That's exactly the point I object in QR's in flight fuel policy. One can land with only final reserve anywhere but at destination most needed one. That of course makes lots of sense does it? QR's in flight fuel policy is a tailored solution making it very difficult to conduct a proper in flight fuel management enabling commercially preferable solution without compromising safety, of course. PIC is pretty much bounded by all the restrictions, mentioned by you, whereas it's not what JAR OPS says. That's the whole point mate, JAR gives the PIC all the freedom to decide what to do and where to proceed having final reserve left upon touch down only. QR doesn't trust their captains to make this decision thus all those restrictions unnecessary putting lots of pressure on the PIC. That's what I said before OFP fuel isn't a problem, unless NOTAMS WEATHER OR OPS REASONS dictate otherwise, provided PIC has the freedom to manage. NOT IN QR I'M AFRAID.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Cpt. off the hook]

No extra fuel, screw QR. I'd divert just to teach them a lesson. Fuel policy is just crap. Let them bleed. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Smirnoff N21]

Just to show how inconsistent the in flight fuel policy is:
Diversion to VCBI does it really make sense? After one hour flight and burning diversion fuel to find yourself in the same situation like in Male? One RWY again but with only 30 min left. Well, of course, one can speculate about possible crashes on the runway etc yet there's no guaranty for anything.
You think two RWY are gonna save your life? Remember crash of BA 777 in LHR, do you? LHR got shut down completely despite two RWY being in full swing. It's always a risky decision my friend.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[FlyingCroc]

The captain is. Sometimes it takes 0 and sometimes 4t or even 8t. Anyone long enough in aviation knows that. I personally would give a crap towards such policy, if I need more fuel I will take it and I would not have a problem to explain it. Certainly Male is busy at times and that is just a fact, if you did not take the fuel you are in a tight corner, and even more so after a diversion in Colombo. The PAX and certainly the company will not thank you for your screwed up decision. :E

[Smirnoff N21]

It's good that subject has been brought up. Just to wrap up the sandwich.

In-flight fuel management as per JAR OPS.
The commander shall ensure that the amount of usable fuel remaining in flight is not less than the fuel required to proceed to an aerodrome where a safe landing can be made, with final reserve fuel remaining.
If, as a result of an in-flight fuel check, the expected fuel remaining on arrival at the destination is less than the required alternate fuel plus final reserve fuel, the Commander must take into account the traffic and the operational conditions prevailing at the destination aerodrome, along the diversion route to an alternate aerodrome and at the destination alternate aerodrome, when deciding whether to proceed to the destination aerodrome or to divert, so as to land with not less than final reserve fuel.

Good luck to QR with barrel hitting 110 $ US.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Two Dogs....]

Do you actually work for the Goat Vodka drinker? Your Part A must be a bit dusty eh? Policy for cancellation of alternate fuel is clear and conservative. It also overrides JAROPS for all Qatari registered Goat Liners.

That don't mean no goat can run out of fuel eh? Did you hear about the poor bugger that diverted from MCT after the runway was blocked and landed at ALN with less than 600kg?

Far more disturbing than the fuel policy is the secrecy policy....

Have never met a more paranoid human group than The Goaties. Perhaps their bedouin ancestors spent many millenia smoking pot?

Don't take it personally, just take it like a dog....

[knotaloud]

I'm not so sure that cancellation of alternate fuel is that clear?

If you read the 'one runway' requirements you must have an alternate within 30 minutes. Clearly not the case in the Maldives.

However, if you follow the Flow Chart which follows that statement in Part A, you will find no reference to this.

Which 'rule' do you follow? I'll bet you won't get an answer from the author of the fuel policy either.

Personally, I will take whatever amount of fuel I deem suitable and I will not justify it in writing or enter into an argument with others over that quantity.

Should the ACTING CP Tech have a problem with that, we can have a chat later in his office.

This so called Fuel Policy is an ill thought out and half-assed attempt at fuel saving based on dodgy statistics and fear tactics.

[CEJM]

Thanks everybody for your reply's.

The traffic situation in the Maldives is a bit unpredictable to say at least. At times we have spend 30 minutes standing on the runway wiating for a space on the apron. However most of the times they keep us in the hold with similar times going around the hold. This happens only on certain days and certain times during the week. Normally when aal the charter flights from Europe come in.

Personally I would not commit to the Maldives and use my alternate fuel in the hold. Years ago a Twin Otter (seaplane) crashed into the seawall surrounding the airport and scattered debris all over the runway. Runway closed for a considerable time. So it's not only the traffic that actually uses the runway that you have to take into account in the decision.

So if I understand correctly QR uses statistical fuel? Is there any fat in this system when flying to Male? As all we know the guy might have been kept low by Mumbai, hence burning more fuel.

[Smirnoff N21]

T.D. to answer your questions:
Yes I do work for QR.
QCAR is the only valid source for QR without a doubt. Never objected that however the policy as such isn't really sensible one. I just gave you a sample of a JAR OPS one in order to highlight the advantage of such.
Big question mark behind: Isn't Male considered an isolated airdrome?
If so, why shortage of fuel hence 2 hours cruise FF inclusive 30 min ir required over Destination.
General Idea is: Fuel in the wings, being overhead a suitable airdrome is more helpful than being on the way to that airdrome, don't you think?
What advantage does a diversion to VCBI give you, having single RWY and being another hour away? Is there another suitable airdrome within 30 min in case VCBI gets blocked? Which guaranties do you have no one is gonna crash in VCBI and block RWY? Remember you'll only have 30 min left.
Why does QR require one to have an ALT within 30 min? Due to the remote chance of a possible destinations seizure, right? In other words 30 min fuel will take you to your ALT just in case. For you info ALT for VECB is 44 min away so you're doomed with 30 min left. I mean, how good are you at predicting a crash at a particular place? Don't you think the lawmaker was opting conservative probabilities while creating rules? It's obvious that JAR version is a more ripe one cause it simply entrusts PIC with power to decide the safest course of action which QR doesn't. Bottom line is good airmanship and decision making is essential to have safe and cost efficient OPS. Part A is full of flaws my friend and solely to rely on it isn't really prudent.
As for extra fuel I don't see a problem with taken a reasonable amount for the reasons stated above.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[v/s1000]

Is that the way you deal with your company which give you Bread and Butter :D.You should do something better Talk ,Write :ok:

[hairy plotter]

Sure v/s1000, that's the only way this ******** of technical pilot ever listens
Debating and exchange of opinions stall due to personal virtues like being stubborn. 30 min and VHF crap has being picked up after one of the retarded hotshots has declared PAN in Doha and after being questioned the imaginary story about what if....just in case...blah blah blah.
Background of this pathetic rule is Have never met a more paranoid human group than The Goaties. Perhaps their bedouin ancestors spent many millenia smoking pot? You got a point doggy.

[Two Dogs....]

The policy is written in english, I read in english, seems clear enough to me.

The policy is conservative. At MLE if Fuel = Bingo, Decision = Divert now. It doesn't say 10 minutes fixed reserve may be used to haggle with controllers. Neither does it say you may plan for a glide approach at the alternate.

Anyone who has the balls to do that sector with just flight plan fuel surely also has the balls to divert immediately and later boldly justify his decision to the boss. Being a lowly but cunning dog I take more gas to avoid a bone fight in the kennel.

(MLE is not isolated, that argument is not relevant.)

[Smirnoff N21]

JAR OPS is written in English as well no brainier at all:
Isolated Aerodrome: If acceptable to the authority the destination aerodrome can be considered as an Isolated Aerodrome, if the fuel required (diversion plus final) to the nearest adequate destination alternate aerodrome is more than: For aeroplanes with turbine engines, fuel to fly for two hours at normal cruise consumption above the destination aerodrome, including final reserve fuel.
Let's do the math with A330, shall we? actual FPL was taken as ground.
1. ALT Fuel 6800 Kg + Final 2100 = 8900 Kg
2. Hold 2 hours =8400 Kg.
I leave the rest of conclusive brain work up to you.
With planned remaining of 10K don't see a problem there really neither to hold nor to divert.If you find a definition of isolated aerodrome in QR's part A, I'll be surprised. Whatever you do as long as land safely No questions will be asked.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Two Dogs....]

Male is not "isolated".

Seychelles is isolated, Casey Station is isolated, your Part A seems to be isolated too.

Don't take it personally, take it like a dog....

[loc22550]

In Q.A,Seychelles is "islotated" for the "320" family only i think...,as other fleets have an alternate for Seychelles(FMIP if i remember..)..unless i missed something in the definition of an isolated Aerodrome...:uhoh:

[Smirnoff N21]

T.D. it's seems impossible to teach an old dog some new tricks. Even SEZ isn't run under isolated procedure any more. Bottom line is: either leave them being isolated and then in flight fuel management isn't an issue since one has to make up his mind at the PNR or change the in-flight fuel policy to a reasonable guide line. Under present constellation the only way to make a sound decision is to bend the rules at own peril.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[square leg]

Do dispatchers have ATPL's? Or, how many dispatchers have ATPL's? Or, who is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of a flight?

[Smirnoff N21]

S.L. dispatchers are licensed personnel (no ATPL but similar qualification comprising of comprehensive knowledge) and are highly experienced folks.
I'm under the impression that QR tries to implement a mixture of FAA and JAR way regarding the dispatch and flight release. To answer your question:
PIC under QCAR and JAR is the only responsible person and final authority thus having the final say about fuel. Dispatcher conducts a consultative service pertaining the flight and provides information necessary for a safe flight conduct without bearing the co-responsibility for such.
FAR is a bit different in this regard:
Section 121.535: Responsibility for operational control: Flag operations.

(a) Each certificate holder conducting flag operations is responsible for operational control.
(b) The pilot in command and the aircraft dispatcher are jointly responsible for the preflight planning, delay, and dispatch release of a flight in compliance with this chapter and operations specifications.
(c) The aircraft dispatcher is responsible for—
(1) Monitoring the progress of each flight;
(2) Issuing necessary instructions and information for the safety of the flight; and
(3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released.
(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.
(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.
(f) No pilot may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger life or property.
Practical application of FAR means that the commander can't go below fuel specified in the dispatch release but always can top it up, of course.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Johny Walker]

one thing is for sure QR OM needs serious overhaul. Make it simple or just adopt a well designed one. :oh: