Why is OZ even considering Lion Air???

[The Chef]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23361003-401,00.html

After yet another serious Indonesian Airline accident, why is Australian still considering letting an Indonesian carrier operate domestically in Australia?? We should be following the example of the EU...

With QF / DJ / JQ / TT all ordering more aircraft, can the Australian market cope with another carrier anyway??

[Wizofoz]

The EU hasn't banned Indonesian OWNED airlines! Just those operating on Indonesian AOCs.

As I understand it, Lion will be 51% Australian owned, with an Australian AOC. It will come under the regulation oc CASA, so it's up to them to assure standards and complience.

[hot tuna]

Using Sky air world's AOC as a start up called Lion air Australia..51% OZ owned therefore becomes an OZ airline -

[airtags]

as titled - the key precipe is that it's up to CASA to regulate. Too this end all journalists should refer to CASA chief B.Byron's statments and war cries at the presser held at the opening of last year's safer skies talkfest in Canberra.

Sadly despite the CASA boss drawing the line in the sand, CASA's performance in this respect by the granting some of the illogical dispensations given to some LCC's (or new world carriers as some like to called), - including 'defacto' ETOPs, suggests that (still) nobody is listening to the boss.

Baseline for me is that if anyone wants to fly in Oz skies they must be made to comply with a common set of standards and the notion of self regulation/compliance/reporting be set aside. (esp. given the likes of Lion's 'impressive' safety achievements).

If they fly on a FAOC then they should be made to upgrade to Aust standards rather than us issuing dispensations.

Open skies and deregulation should not be a predecessor to downgraded safety.:=

[TurbineDreamer]

The Chef

I think word of mouth is a pretty strong thing, it will not matter if CASA give them the nod or not. You don't get bums on seats because of a fundamental perception that you are not safe - well the market will speak and they will not be around for long.

Saying that there is every chance that the travelling public are fairly stupid and if they can ride for eg $4.95 between Adl and Mlb, they'll do it.

Market forces will hopefully take care of them. That's if they even get going.

[Led Zep]

Here's to the day I can travel domestically with a choice of full service carriers.

[THRidle]

Amen to that Led Zep.

[Buster Hyman]

"It's Merpati & I'll fly when I want to, fly when I want to....you could fly to if you're as dumb as meeeeee"

[Dixondik]

Why is OZ even considering Lion Air???

BECAUSE, Jen Hawkins has some form of involvement or knowledge that the mob exist!:ugh:

[john_tullamarine]

It's Merpati & I'll fly when I want to, fly when I want to

A couple of consultant mates of mine could tell a tale or two from some years back out in the back blocks of the Indonesian hinterland ... then again, they did get to see more of the local area than was originally anticipated .. in between trips to the airport ...

Having flown a number of times on Indonesian carriers from Garuda down .. the only one which really sticks in the mind was a G1 flight to Ambon .. but I won't bore you with the details .. other than to say it was interesting.

[apacau]

I'm not (yet) confident that Lion Air will even fly in Australia...

I'm also yet to totally understand SkyAirWorld either and their strategy. On the one hand they're operating their own RPT services to Honiara, then they're wet/damp leasing to others such as Air Nuigini. Plus the odd charter. Then they're chasing (reportedly) mining contracts and finally looking at doing the Lion Air deal!

Their future fleet is a bit of mixed bag as well - E170, E190, E145s (any news on these and where they'll go?) and of course the joint-venture Lion Air 739ERs!

[Lasiorhinus]

So if I fly on Lion, I get to sit next to Jennifer, but if I fly on Jetstar, I sit next to Magda?

:confused:

No contest, is there;)

[priapism]

The only ones who would consider flying Lion are the bogan element similar to those who have embraced Tiger. If a Lion aircraft pranged in Aus it would save the country a fortune in dole , single mother and other bogan payments.

Bring them on! The "current affair" programs will have a feast on such types complaining when they don't get 5 star hotel accomodation when their 30 dollar flight to Sydney is cancelled.

Sitting back with the remote in hand now!

[RENURPP]

If Lion Air have an Australian AOC, employ Australian crews, and Australian engineers, whats the problem? :bored:
Do you suspect they will give all their staff lobotomies so the wonderful Australian Airline culture is downgraded to the Indonesian version. :confused:
Not only would I fly with them, I may even apply for a job with them.:ok:

The main difference is that it will be funded by Rupiah with Indo input into management. Consider what we think or our current management and is that such a problem?

I can assure you that regardless of the nationality of my superior, I will not be operating any different to how I do now, and its an insult to believe any other pilots, engineers would either.

I thought they were planning on being a full service carier?

[The Baron]

From what I've read on their website the Australian operation will be a 3 class setup i.e. full service. Crewed by Aussies, maintained by Aussies, heavy maintenance done in a 3rd world country. No difference to Qantas or Virgin really...

[blow.n.gasket]

Except, unlike Qantas ,Lion's aircraft I expect, won't be museum pieces!;)

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

The only ones who would consider flying Lion are the bogan element similar to those who have embraced Tiger. If a Lion aircraft pranged in Aus it would save the country a fortune in dole , single mother and other bogan payments.

Bring them on! The "current affair" programs will have a feast on such types complaining when they don't get 5 star hotel accomodation when their 30 dollar flight to Sydney is cancelled.

Sitting back with the remote in hand now!

Remote in one hand... :confused:...in the other! :eek::hmm:

Australian AOC, Australian crews....hellloooo!!!!! :ugh:


If Lion Air have an Australian AOC, employ Australian crews, and Australian engineers, whats the problem? :bored:
Do you suspect they will give all their staff lobotomies so the wonderful Australian Airline culture is downgraded to the Indonesian version. :confused:
Not only would I fly with them, I may even apply for a job with them.:ok:

The main difference is that it will be funded by Rupiah with Indo input into management. Consider what we think or our current management and is that such a problem?

I can assure you that regardless of the nationality of my superior, I will not be operating any different to how I do now, and its an insult to believe any other pilots, engineers would either.

I thought they were planning on being a full service carier?

Much better! :ok:

[Aeroplane Jelly]

here's some info I dug up on this from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Australia
Even though it will be majority owned by SkyAirWorld, Lion Air president Rusdi Kiranait was reported as saying that his company would be the operator and control the business
So this wouldn't be an Australian based airline, it would be Indonesian based because as it stated, Lion Air would be operating it.

The fleet they'll be operating over here would have previously been maintained and operated using indonesian standards and it's no doubt that they'll be using their own Lion Air facilities in Indonesia to continue the maintanence of this fleet, which will be allowed to fly domestic and international routes throughout Australia and south-east asia.

Yes, a lot of Australian airlines outsource some of their repairs to facilities in asia, but they still do the majority of the servicing in Australia using our standards and workers.

People will argue that they'll be maintained to meet CASA's requirements, but at the end of the day, the work would have been done in some third world workshop with workplace standards well below Australia's funded by a company that doesn't have a good safety track record.

[Ralph the Bong]

AJ, there is a massive amount of ignorance regarding the standards in 3rd world countries. You will find, if ever you venture off shore, that there are some very well established and resourced maintenance organisations staffed with knowlegable, dedicated engineers.

On the other hand, there some really crap maintenance providers in Australia.

There is no doubt that there will be some difficulties in cultural attitudes between SAW and Lionair, but who is to say that they cannot be overcome? I cannot see why this company should neccessarily be shonky, as some have suggested.

I wonder if the whole venture revolves more around access to European ports (which Lionair has lost and would regain by using an Australian AOC) than access to the Australian market.

[alangirvan]

I think the 6 Lion Air Australia planes will be newly delivered from the production line.

If Lion Air Australia wants to have the planes maintained in Asia, it will have to be at a facility that has been approved by CASA. If Lion wants to operate the planes on EROPS, the facility will need that approval as well. Besides, it is a long distance to ferry Australian based 737s somewhere in Asia for periodical checks, when there are lots of Australian or NZ bases within close range of SE Australia.

Talking about range - the range of a 737-900ER is about 3200 miles, right? Indonesia is the only Asian country within that sort of range from SE Australia. Bali is well within that range. Even Jakarta is just on the edge of the published range of a 739. I do not think there is anywhere else in Asia you could fly to non stop from SE Australia in a 739. Singapore, Malaysia look like they are beyond the non stop range. If you have to do a stop in Darwin or Cairns on the way to Asia that seems to limit what the plane would do for you. As a plane for Transcon Australian routes - Brisbane-Perth, or Trans Tasman the 739 would be a great plane.

[galdian]

The success, or otherwise, assuming they get up and running, will be determined by one factor only - if there is even a hint of Indonesian pilots being involved in any way in the operations/management etc of the "Australian" part of the operation then commercially they have kicked an own goal, QF/VB/porn and pussy won't even have to say anything, a raised eyebrow will be enough to send a current affair/today tonight etc off to do the story of the Indonesian aviation scene (doesn't have to be Lion specific) - and as we all know there really is quite a story. :eek:

IF the Oz operation is crewed and managed locally, IF the weaknesses within Indonesian aviation are acknowledged, IF it is pointed out and reinforced and proven (as required) that the Oz operation is indeed totally separate from Lion Indonesia, IF the Australian aviation safety record and the use of local pilots/management/new aircraft is successfully highlighted and emphasised to the market - then maybe there's half a chance comercially.
Suppose we'll have to wait and see whether Lion Oz have similar views.

Of course just IMHO - and WTF would I know! :ok:

[alangirvan]

Also, yes EU has come down very heavily on Indonesian airlines because of the safety record, but Garuda did announce a big order for 777-300ERs at the Singapore Air Show, and I guess that order would not have been announced if Boeing and Garuda did not believe that Indonesia is heading in the right direction to gain EU approvals. Boeing placed some conditions on Lion when the order for 737-900ERs was announced - Boeing does not want to have one of their planes written off with passengers on board.

Thought: SAW in Queensland could provide a lot of training support for the Indonesian part of the operation. There could be a lot of benefits from the relationship for the Indonesian operation.

[Left Wing]

The only conditions Boeing placed on Lion is to mandate only their 737-400 crew will move to 737-900ER not the Md88....thats it... zero safety mandates or audits....not even a IOSA...

[Kangaroo Court]

I have seen pasengers board aircraft that quite frankly would still get on if one wing was on fire...if the ticket price was low enough!

[Buster Hyman]

I have seen pasengers board aircraft that quite frankly would still get on if one wing was on fire...if the ticket price was low enough!


:confused:....What? Like Pilots on sub-load?

[amos2]

Yep!...and traffic clerks too!! :=:=

[ithinkso]

how do i apply??

[galdian]

For those interested have a look at Fragrant Harbour, thread about "demise of HKA", an interesting article posted about how Indo aviation has set the safety record back 5 years.
Pretty much supports my previous post.

When all this started a few months ago the boss of SAW, Mr Charlton, indicated he perceived "no problems regarding the Indo safety record" and "no reason why people wouldn't fly Lion(oz)."
IMHO he was wrong then, if similar thoughts still persist in Lion(oz) management then they are wrong now and should they actually start operating they deserve to fail - as I believe they would.
IF they have matured, looked at the real world and have devised a strategy to mitigate the Indo (aviation safety) connection and demonstrate why it will have no bearing on Lion(oz) then they have a chance.

As for people climbing on any carrier if the price is right - not when there are other LCC connections (porn/pussy) around, maybe not quite as convenient but based, and operated, from countries that have a different safety record to that of Indonesia.
And the brief from porn/pussy to their ad agencies: "allude, but do not state, to the punters they will die on Lion(oz) but wont with us because of our safety record which we can prove - be subtle, play with their minds!"
One wonders what the ads might look like. :ok:

[8888]

...and if the recent G/A by a familiar A320 in Melbourne is any indication of the exemplary standards demanded by said 'pussy/porn' operators just how long can the ad agencies run with the myth of 'safety' over there?

[Kwaj mate]

And when would you be willing to pay the full price of a full service airline on Oz. You want the money they offer - with all FOC travel. It is not you who will make a full service airline a reality, it is Joe Hunt, a member of the traveling public.

[galdian]

Hmmmmmm :suspect:

For "8888" I would suggest "alleged" stories of near misses will be trumped by pictures of burning, broken aircraft and lists of passengers either dead or unaccounted for, every time.
The ad agencies could continue until such time as there are pictures of burning, broken aircraft and lists...etc where the aircraft is Oz registered/operated.
Hasn't happened yet but, like everything in life, tomorrow's a new day and anything's possible.

Now if I really wanted to finish off on a bitchy note (which is far below my dignity :p) I would suggest that should an incident occur in Oz then all hell will break loose from the regulator wheras in Indonesia the authorities are either too busy, too lazy, too incompetent or too paid off to care and killing people is simply the price for "doing business."

Luckily I do not want to finish on such a note! :ok:

Trust that has resolved the concerns you have raised.

regards
galdian

[8888]

Not really, but no bitchiness taken... Are the regulators not supposed to operate in such a way that their actions preempt a nasty 'incident', not simply allow all hell to brake loose after the fact? The 'alleged' incident above and others thus far take some explaining in order to use that word "alleged".

[Frank Burden]

Surely the small Indonesian travel market cannot be compared to the vibrancy of what we are doing in Oz?

Just a bunch of bush pilots using heavy metal on short (and expensive) sectors.:cool:

[Ralph the Bong]

Panicky pilots caused jet tragedyFont Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print By Stephen Fitzpatrick | March 26, 2008

AN Indonesian jetliner smashed into the ocean, obliterating all trace of its 102 occupants, after its pilots accidentally disengaged the autopilot while they were trying to reset a failed navigational system, an inquiry has found.

The Adam Air Boeing 737 was en route from Surabaya, East Java, to Manado, North Sulawesi, when it foundered on New Year's Day last year.

The investigation details the terrifying final moments as the two inexperienced and poorly trained pilots veered off course in stormy weather, tried to reset their malfunctioning instruments using a guide book that had been downloaded from an unauthorised website and then failed to right the craft as it banked and dived almost 25,000 feet in just over a minute.

The findings probably come too late to affect the company: Adam Air was grounded last week on safety concerns, days after announcing it was insolvent and needed tens of billions of rupiah to continue operating.

The operator, founded by parliamentary speaker Agung Laksono and businesswoman Sandra Ang - and named for her chief executive son Adam, 27, - has a history of going off course at the strategic and operational level.

The pilots of the doomed flight DHI 574 can be heard on the cockpit voice recorder expressing panic that they were heading in the wrong direction and into a violent storm.

The two became so fixated on rectifying the problem that they ignored automated cockpit warnings to take control of the plane as it banked 100 degrees to the right and then pitched 60 degrees forward.

One year previously, an Adam Air flight had veered hundreds of kilometres from its intended route and landed on a little-used airstrip in Sumbawa, eastern Indonesia. Investigations into the instrument failure that caused that incident were criticised as cursory and part of a political cover-up.

A National Transportation Safety Committee senior director Mardjono Siswosuwarno admitted yesterday it was possible the same equipment failure that caused the 2006 incident was behind last year's disaster.

The crashed aircraft's Inertial Reference System, which helps the autopilot system maintain its bearing, had failed multiple times in the months before the disaster, according to Adam Air maintenance records.

However, investigators found senior pilots at the airline were unable to explain how the IRS system worked. Nor did the airline provide training in IRS system failure or in how to right an upset aircraft.

The report notes a range of failings in individual pilot abilities and the airline's training and maintenance regimes.

It suggests the entire industry has a long way to go before an estimated 34 million passengers per annum can fly with any expectation of safety.

Indonesia recently signed a $22 million transport safety assistance package with Australia, and trains with the International Aviation Safety Commission. Last month, it received a surprise award for its air traffic control systems from the prestigious Jane's Airport Review, although a European Union ban remains on Indonesian aircraft flying in its airspace.

Herman Mulyadi, an air force colonel and medical doctor who is also a member of the National Transportation Safety Committee, said yesterday the Adam Air crash should not be regarded as the result of "human error" but rather of "human failing ... because this is one of the risks of flying".

"There was a failure in human performance and to err is human," he said.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is basic CRM stuff. Remember the L1011 in the Florida everglades?

Some interesting observation regarding the senior company pilots, too.:yuk:

[galdian]

8888

Yeah, OK - use of the word "alleged" regarding some incidents was inappropriate, would have been more appropriate to maybe say "alleged accidents" which are fortunately lacking in Oz.

How do you quantify if the regulator is doing things properly??
I can only do so by looking at broken aircraft, body bags and manifests of persons missing, "presumed dead"; so far fortunately lacking in Oz, not so in Indonesia.

In fairness the regulator is only one part of all the components (training, resources, aircraft airworthiness etc etc) that come together to build a framework in an effort to maximise safety and minimise accidents, incidents will always occur (hell you can injure yourself getting out of bed and falling over the cat, if the cat doesn't get you the meteor hitting your house surely well! :p ), hopefully they don't turn into accidents and weaknesses that caused the incident(s) are identified and addressed.

[galdian]

having just read the above report in full I'm impressed that Adam Air actually HAD some maintenance records! :p

OK so lets get serious - IF you believe CRM is an integral part of safety then maybe, speaking generally, it's time to acknowledge that the traditions and culture of certain parts of the world are incompatible with what's required to maximise safety in modern operations and for an external body (remember it wasn't Korean Air management who decided crashing aircraft and killing people was a bad thing it was the insurance companies) to come forward and say:
" right you lot, if you want to operate aircraft you will have in your ops manual stated company policy that outlines the obligation and responsibility for ALL crew to hear and absorb information and react appropriately, a method whereby the copilot can express concerns to the Captain culminating in the copilot being required, with the stated support of the company and without fear of retribution from any individuals, to take over should issues be unresolved and the safety of the aircraft is in question.
Company management will provide entheuastic training and support to reflect the above, monitor compliance and deal firmly with miscreants.
We don't give a f**k how your society is structured, the above is solely aimed at improving air safety world wide - if you don't like it then don't fly."

So any nice little acronym (ICAO, IATA, someone, anyone??) who'll step up??

Not holding my breath! ;)