View Full Version : Balpa Pr: Pilots Object To Id Card Demand

10th Mar 2008, 07:35
British Airline Pilots’ Association
9th March 2008



The Government's announcement that workers at UK airports will be amongst the first Britons to get ID cards has been met with great concern by members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA).

BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan said 'BALPA will not stand by and allow policies to be introduced by administrative means that don't have the consent of Parliament.

'The implication of not being able to work as a pilot without a UK ID is nothing short of coercion,' he said. 'It also raises questions about the many professional non-UK pilots flying for UK airlines that will not be able to secure an ID card.

'On a practical level, and from what is known about the plans, this would be an additional requirement to the existing criminal record check, the five-year reference check, the existing airside pass process which itself varies from airport to airport and the inconsistent security regimes practised at check in at individual airports.

' The combination of all of these existing checks is already seen by the majority of pilots as uncoordinated, intrusive, unprofessional and has been shown in surveys to be highly stressful and a growing threat to flight safety.

'The Home Secretary's proposals offer no improvements in security or any other benefits, as far as we can see.'

Jim McAuslan said the addition of this extra tier would be madness without a fundamental rethink of the security treatment of Flightcrew.

'If the Government is serious about 'joining up' they need to go back to first principles.'

( I am sure they won't mind the text being posted here )

10th Mar 2008, 09:39
Might have guessed that we would be among the first guinea pigs to have to to 'volunteer' to carry these vile things.

Yeah, volunteer or lose your job.

I rather thought I was a trusted citizen of this country, so why am I the first to be treated like a criminal suspect?

I'll resist as long as possible

10th Mar 2008, 10:31
We must all resist this.

Send your views to

Ms Sara Marshall
External Affairs Director
I/D and Passport Office
Home Office

She's woman trying to sell the idea - you've got about three months to persuade her otherwise. If we all pull together they will not be able to make this work for aircrew.

Now watch this thread get moved to Jetblast, as was the previous one. Why?

10th Mar 2008, 10:48
We need to get all the various unions that cover airline/airport staff to worktogether on this one. So let's get the ball rolling by each contacting our own unions and expressing our disgust with this id card enforcement.

10th Mar 2008, 11:16
Perhaps we need an airline employee petition on the No 10 website objecting to this?

How will this improve safety?

10th Mar 2008, 11:18
Given Press coverage in the UK claiming certain people have infiltrated the Met shouldn't the first Guinea Pig group be Police Officers????


Oh B*****r, that'll shift this to jetblast.

10th Mar 2008, 11:51
Wondered where my original thread went!!!
Letter in post to ALAE....what about the rest..200,000 messages to MPs should help?

This will link to a site that you can write to your MP in a simple manner and voice your opinion. (yes it does work my MP replied by snail mail).

James Beam
10th Mar 2008, 12:29
I agree with whats been said here! As a ground engineer based in the UK it seems i too will be coerced into accepting an ID card or lose my job AND career pretty much. All unions representing airside pass holders should get together on this one and jump on it bigtime. I cannot even begin to explain how this whole ID card scheme makes my blood boil. Im a uK citizen my family have lived here for centuries as far as im aware and peacefullty too. This system of ' picking off' vulnerable groups one by one is a tried and tested method made popular oooh about 70 years ago by a certain mr A Hitler, when it hits everyone looks away and prays it wont be them next, only one time it will be until we are all sucked into this evil scheme...... too late to complain then!! personally if im made to have one of these vile things ill carry a yellow star of David too!:mad:

Skipness One Echo
10th Mar 2008, 13:48
So how do we know who the rest of the punters are then? I mean we know thats most are white UK citizens with no little or no criminal record, however the sheer number of peeps that are in the UK from "elsewhere", and I don't mean that in a bad way just that we are a magnet for people in lot of ways.

The systems falls apart because of the sheer complexity and duplication involved and so it seems to have been realised that a clean sheet start with a fingerprint as what is called a primary key is the best way forward. This is a generational realisation, over decades to clean up and understand WHO actually lives here and just how many multiple identities certain people have. I don't LIKE that useless bunch of TWONKs at HMG having my fingerprints as it has connotations of me being a criminal, however since I was arrested a good few years ago I can't really see how it would affect me *cough*. I do sympathise with most of you who just want go to work honestly and have people mind their own business.

I suspect our kids may wonder what all the fuss was about. My dabs on a plastic card are not an issue for me as long as they are only linked to date of birth, convictions, points on my licence etc and that info is kept accurate. The danger is mission creep where we add behavioral analysis, blood type, sexuality and that for me is creepy......

10th Mar 2008, 14:21
We need to get all the various unions that cover airline/airport staff to work together on this one. So let's get the ball rolling by each contacting our own unions and expressing our disgust with this id card enforcement.
I have already started the ball rolling with Unite who represent the majority of Airport/Airline workers.
I'll post as soon as anything official comes my way....You are right it's not just an Aircrew problem.....

10th Mar 2008, 14:43
Sorry if I'm guilty of thread creep, and I'm sure it's been brought up before, but I think it's worth constant repetition.

Why on earth do the government or anyone else think that the ID card will be accurate proof of identity? Surely the crux of the matter is that no matter how sophisticated the biometric data, the failure point of the system is the central data base, kept on computer, with the weakness of the human/machine interface.

Yes, I can see that in a mix up on the database you could give your DNA again to prove there's been an error. But how does this help in the instant process of identification needed at a security checkpoint?

What really scares me is the blind faith that the database will be 100% secure combined with the increasing "computer says no" mentality of those using it.

"Computer says you're guilty"

"Computer says you're not who you say you are"

10th Mar 2008, 16:09

This will link to a site that you can write to your MP in a simple manner and voice your opinion. (yes it does work my MP replied by snail mail).

Many thanks for that !

I intend to use it.

10th Mar 2008, 16:12
I can only urge you, agin, all to contact every elected official you can and your unions, I certainly have. My union is the GMB.

I've already had a very brief reply from my MEP and expect to hear more soon. Use www.writetothem.com (http://www.writetothem.com) and it will list your Councillors, MP and MEP's. I am going to put this link up on the office notice board too. Make sure you all do the same too please.

10th Mar 2008, 16:21
While I consider this an invidious proposal, and wholly in keeping with the self righteous authoritarianism of our Government, if you Google "ID Cards +BALPA" you will find this:

BALPA - Much to gain from ID cards
Monday, 26 Apr 2004 15:29
The British Airline Pilot's Association (BALPA) said that there is little to lose and much to gain from the Government's plans to introduce ID cards.

Jim McAuslan general secretary of BALPA said: 'All pilots carry ID cards in the course of their work and see no reason why there should not be an ID card for everyone. No one has anything to lose and we all have a good deal to gain, not least in strengthening the security of our country.

... Which might go some way to explaining why the situation has arisen

10th Mar 2008, 16:46
Knowing the Government's skill and competence, relax. You will be able to get a great ID card on E Bay within 6 months of their introduction (I can't bring myself to say "Roll Out!)

10th Mar 2008, 17:38
Grackle, that BALPA announcement is four years old. The national ID cards scheme (made law in 2006) has come a long way since then. It's only in the last year or so that people have really wised up to the truly awful nature of the scheme.

The BALPA press release is highly significant. That pilots are opposed to ID cards proves the lie that the government is there to 'protect' you.

This position against ID Cards has to go to the wire and beyond if we are going to maintain our freedoms.

10th Mar 2008, 17:53
It's bad enough that I've recieved 2 wonderfull letters from the MOD letting me know that my passport details and such like have been lost. One of them going to an address I haven't lived at for 10 years.

Now if my finger prints and other data are stored at a central location and then lost or stolen what's to stop it being used? Even a google search of "fooling fingerprint readers" gives over 19000 answers.

Shows how easy it is to use latent prints, now to be offered in an easy to steal format carried in your wallet and on the laptop of some junior government worker who's looking to show off to their mates.

Let the politicians get the cards and try them out for 10 years. Then give them to the Police. Then quietly scrap them when the Police object to the whole idea

10th Mar 2008, 18:46
Unless BALPA is going to organise a national pilots strike, this is all just a lot of hot air. And then fascist Brown will get what he wants.

10th Mar 2008, 21:43
Sorry folks, but you are well behind what is happening in the uk with regards to identity.
I work in the NHS as an IMT Manager. To do my job I have to have a card. To get a card you have to produce passport, picture driving licence etc, and also recent utility bills.
This alows me to access the "spine" - otherwise known as the National Care Records Service." This time next year I will probably have access to all you medical records !!
Despite what they say i cannot concieve a point where they will not combine records from NHS, CAA, and anyone else you wish to mention.
SLF will soon have vast details handed over to who knows in the USA including credit cards etc I guess everyone will have access to everything about me.
I once had a great video clip which I used as a teaching tool re the data protection act & how data could be used. Will try to find it at work & post it as it's very informative.
Honestly though, I think the argument is pretty much over. Employers will want to please Government. More & more of this will be "eased in" especially occupationally.
So what can you do ? Give up you job & work in another country ? If you want to fly into uk airspace you will need one of these ( prob same for US soon ). I wish you luck, but I have to have this ID else I don't have a job as there ain't many jobs in health informatics.

10th Mar 2008, 22:16
Nhs - my airside security pass was only issued once they'd checked everything else - a proven record of where I'd been every week for the past numerous decades, employment history, previous convictions etc. Add to that the laborious process of achieving an ATPL - including Class 1 medical - and a verified application from my airline. Only then do they let me go airside and fly 200+ people.

If you're saying that - according to the nhs logic - these checks on me are insufficient then the whole of UK (and by default worldwide) aviation security is compromised.

Not sure what level of security you really need to do whatever it is you do in the nhs but be assured aircrew are already subject to the most stringent of checks - not only for the issue of their passes but by virtue of their continually assessed job.

The fact that you think you'll be able to access my medical records within the year only goes to show how vital it is we fight these proposals.

10th Mar 2008, 22:31
nhs, I know you're only trying to make a point, but I think your post will cause a certain amount of outrage - so you've definitely made the point!

If indeed you and others will have access to everyones' centralised records, what level of security clearance will that access require?

How is everyone with this access going to be deemed trustworthy?

The potential for the unauthorised selling of information or blackmail or god knows what else is going to be huge.

Laughable were it not so serious.

10th Mar 2008, 22:43
An that is waht worries me. I have had no PRC criminal records check for my post - ok as excusable as in post before they started them. Have had one when doing some work in my daughters school.
All you guys (& girls - wouldn't want to exclude ) have had multiple checks to get to where you are, probably far mor than I have . Having that sort of info on a card is no problem from my POV, but the Gov aim is ( I suspect ) to be able to ultimately be able to link all data. With biometrics they will be able to do that, rather than just cross-checking name/dob etc. Biometrics are a unique identifier.
I would have no problem with such a database as long as it was secure, & there lie my doubts. If you have a secure database someone will try to hack it just for fun. If someone can do that then someone with less honest objectives will be able to do it.
Ultimately your data will be available to anyone who is willing to pay - I doubt it would be that hard to find someone who could give me your latest bank statement !
I object to this move purely as it heads to multiple linked databases which will not be secure & I suspect not just uk gov/nhs data but also credit agencies etc.

10th Mar 2008, 22:47
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:16,17

This is where it will end up folks.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six. (666) vs 18

10th Mar 2008, 22:54
As an aside, I am think I am correct in saying that you can tell your GP that your don't want your medical records put on the Central system. It is never going to work anyway - it is 5+ years late and 300% over budget and still not up and running properly. Another EADS triumph

10th Mar 2008, 22:59

I'm not sure Outrage is bad.

About 6 months ago many NHS smartcards expired without warning.
Major problem as without this there would have been no hope of meeting gov targets.
I was then allocated permission to renew the card for people where I work. To do that they gave me permissions to the system which would have allowed me to change data on every single card in the uk system !!
This was because I am in a position of trust, but I was given far more access than I really should have been, but sytems design meant breakdown had this not occured.

I have seen what a mess the gov has made of IT systems in the past, the major mistakes they have made in this one. They want to join up all this data - ok I can understand from an Orwellian point of view, but not from where system security stands at the moment in uk lead IT.

10th Mar 2008, 23:05

You can tell your GP what you like but your record will still be uploaded to the spine. If your record is coded properly it will however have a "lock" on it which will require further permissions for access - similar to politicians, entertainers etc. It will still be there available to any competent hacker.

Red Top Comanche
10th Mar 2008, 23:24
Lets look at how difficult it will be to get a false ID card to work anywhere.

A while back an enterprising reporter set out to get a False passport, a gun and a 14 year old girl.

If I recall the article in the evening standard, he got the gun and the passport by the end of the first day, the girl took another 24 hours.

The next target will be any pilot visiting a licensed airfield, so I had better go down my local pub and order mine soon, its bound to be cheaper than a real one.

11th Mar 2008, 02:16
Much as I don't like these proposals I am comforted by the fact that the authorities (Jacqui Smith et al.) have not realised that a significant number of airport workers don't actually reside in the UK.....

Oh how I will laugh.....or give up work......:}

11th Mar 2008, 02:39
I blame J Edgar Hoover, he started it which got The Land Of Great Demand hooked on it. For some reason or other Mr Brown quite likes swish pads in New England and his Yank hosts have sold him a policy pup on this one. Or was it Blair?
This coupled with the ruthlessness of the old Economic League (where are they now?) brings us here. As M Python said "A wine to lie down and avoid"
I have nothing against ID cards at all if it would only replace your passport in EU but no further, not even driving license. Health data no.
I work in local government and appreciate the difference we have between systems, it means I screen out what I think inappropriate as does the other end, happens between us and cops.
I'll put up with some extra plastic rather than merge it.

11th Mar 2008, 07:02
As the Government will be monitoring this forum one of their apologists will appear soon. Probably with a 'soft' argument against ID Cards. It's all part of the propoganda. Make it seem inevitable. It's not.

11th Mar 2008, 08:26
nhs wrote:

>>About 6 months ago many NHS smartcards expired without warning.
Major problem as without this there would have been no hope of meeting gov targets.
I was then allocated permission to renew the card for people where I work. To do that they gave me permissions to the system which would have allowed me to change data on every single card in the uk system !!
This was because I am in a position of trust, but I was given far more access than I really should have been, but sytems design meant breakdown had this not occured.<<

I.e. the government will use the National Identity Register to fit people up. Namely it's political opponents.

This has already happened to me when HMRC overcharged my tax by over £4000. It was, eventually, traced to an input of false data. It was a devil to sort out.

11th Mar 2008, 08:43
The best approach is for all airport workers to refuse to accept ID cards - that leaves the government with the option to either back down or fire everyone who works airside, thus bringing air travel to a complete halt. Firing everyone would open a huge security hole because there would be no one to keep the sites secure, and trying to hire in a load of brand new people would be an even bigger security risk, whether they had ID cards or not.

11th Mar 2008, 09:45
Airline and Airport staff (and, of course students) are the selected guinea pigs for the UK Government's, desperately required, showroom for ID cards.

The ID card system, and associated gubbins, is BIG business with a global demand for decades to come. The Government is absolutely desparate to get a large slice of that business but needs to show prospective foreign government purchasers that the UK system does work, hence, UK PLC needs a showroom.

Airports and universities make wonderful showrooms compared to, let's say, MoD establishments, because they are centralised, compact, have a moderate throughput of the same individuals day-in-day-out and already have a well-established IT system with large fibre connections that are separate from the UK's public internet backbone. The latter point means that it will be relatively easy to plug airports and universities into the central ID card computers.

What a wheeze! Quite a clever solution to a problem that has always existed with regard to ID cards in the UK, i.e. how to develop such systems and deploy them in a society that defends the citizen's liberty.

And, is today's news that BAA get a 23.5% increase in the charge for aircraft landings unrelated - you decide?

Of course, not all is well for the government's plan because BAE and Accenture, the UK companies most closely associated with ID cards, have announced that they are not going to bid for the contract which just leaves foreign companies in the bidding. Not what the government wants at all and rather clever of BAE and Accenture because, knowing the goverment's overall strategy, they are in a great position to bargain.

So, thanks to airport staff for helping with future pensions etc. and for helping UK PLC.

Damn, can't retrieve my tongue from cheek.

11th Mar 2008, 12:04
Response from the ALAE (Association of Licenced Aircraft Engineers) on their site....Time we worked together with BALPA?


11th Mar 2008, 12:06
Topslide...Good post. The combined TU's are beginning to wake up. All members must approach the officials and Push them along the correct route. If all the Unions come out against this then it will die in the water.

11th Mar 2008, 14:56
just to add my opinion. I don't think that anyone would deny that there are requirements for security checks and as airport workers we are probably more checked than most.
The main contention is that an unrepresentative, wholly unelected minority are seeking to impose there will in controlling our freedom for annonimity, and free speech. This scheme if followed to it's ultimate conclusion is that everyone will be monitored, money transactions, purchases, consumer habits. Human activity profiling on a national scale - the price if you don't comply, allienation, inabillity to hold assest, possible criminal record.
This might be viewed as paranoid but just view some of the evidence of this already on www.no2id.net ( wronfull arrests, interigation centres already built for getting your first passport, the evidence is there ). The gov't have said that there won't be a requirement to carry and produce your id card, this is apparenlty directly contradicted by the police commisioner who indicated that they would see this as a requirement.
Is this what we realy want. If not then get onto BALPA lets get a march organised, a show of our want for our freedom. If this could be organised with other unions and the numbers were large enough then it would make the gov't realise that they are not representing a large portion of law abiding hard working citizens.

Paradise Lost
11th Mar 2008, 15:36
Quote:Me too. I also once thought that, please, please, check me out once and for all, however you like - iris/retinal scans, facial recognition, fingerprints and any other biometrics,convictions or illegal tendancies. Tattoo me, bar code or chip me, even an anal probe if you must, BUT then leave me the f*** alone to walk unhindered; no hassle with shoes, tweezers, water or toothpaste.

No anal probe for me thanks. Don't reckon I'd look good in a tatoo but the chips sound fine. It really would be much better security if we all lived in government controlled residences and were ferried to and from the aircraft by Group 4.....and you can all cut out that union nonsense too!

11th Mar 2008, 15:40
But Group 4 will get you to the wrong aircraft, place of work or lose you on the way!!:}

11th Mar 2008, 16:04
Let the Government officials, M.P's and Civil Servants be the first to prove the security of their systems.

Once they have been processed, and have their personal data lost / stolen / misuesd they may well re-think their actions.

11th Mar 2008, 18:03
Laudable sentiments from all, however a few years too late I fear. the police state that we would all wish to avoid is already established.

Even were it not, I am reminded of a wise old gentleman's advice "never, never, ever trust a pilot" Sadly pilots will never stand together against anything, firstly because of the 'Officer and gentleman' syndrome ( strikes and militant behaviour are for the working classes and we are above all that )

Secondly because if one man refuses to fly for any reason, be that political, moral, safety related etc: A thousand others will rush to take his place for the twin time / jet time / wide body time / command time.
The airlines realised that truth many years ago and that is why our terms, conditions and salaries are now so laughable. Sad really because as a body we probably wield more bargaining power than almost anyone else. Think of what the complete stoppage of air transport would mean to this country, even for a day or two, not to mention what could be achieved on a global scale ! United, we could affect any legislation but I for one will not be holding my breath.

11th Mar 2008, 19:21
pilots will never stand together against anything

moonburn, we are in new territory here. Pilots are sick to death of being treated like common criminals when they go to work. The ID Card just makes this worse.

BALPA have reacted very well to this. It would have been disastrous for them to have been a political poodle to New Labour.

The problem at the moment is that the first pilot to be frog marched to the interrogation centre is going to need solid union solid backing to refuse. BALPA must address this point at the outset.

Pilot Pete
12th Mar 2008, 09:00
I have just written this to my MP (it was late last night and it is a little disjointed, but it will do);

Dear Lady Winterton

I am writing to you regarding the recent announcement by the Government
that National ID cards are to be compulsorily rolled out to immigrants
from outside the EU and UK airport workers. This is a stealth
introduction of an extremely unpopular scheme and as an airline captain
at Manchester Airport I object to this measure.

The system is supposedly being introduced on the grounds of enhancing
security at UK airports. This, in my opinion is incorrect. We already
have to undergo a Criminal Records check via Disclosure Scotland to get
our current airport identity card. This includes a 5 year verifiable
history. Another identity card is not going to enhance security. The
argument is that it will contain biometric data about the individual
and this is 'more secure'. Please take time to read this report from
the Royal Academy of Engineering, which contains input from UK's
Academy of Social Sciences.

This report highlights the limitations of the technology and
demonstrates that biometric data is far from secure, which is what the
Government want the general public to believe. I consider this stealth
introduction of ID cards into selected industries (there will surely be
more to follow in time) to be an erosion of my right to privacy. The
reason for the introduction is nothing to do with enhanced security, it
is merely targeting groups which are in no position to refuse. How can
I resist the introduction of another ID card if I make myself
unavailable for work in my current job by so doing?

The recent scandals over lost data which various agencies hold on me,
my family and the general public at large is truly shocking. I have no
faith that the current Government and their departments can hold my
data securely and prevent ANY unauthorised disclosure or access to my
personal data and possible identity theft. Ian Angell of the Times
recently wrote an interesting article highlighting the issues;

The whole aviation security industry is disjointed and a farce. The DfT
issue guidelines which are interpreted by airport operators. They do
their own thing within the guidelines and then add in their own 'bits'
however they so choose. Manchester Airports Plc is about to introduce
iris scanning for airport workers. Again, I cannot refuse this
introduction or I will be in effect making myself unable to carry out
my job. I am unhappy about this issue too. Who will have access to this
data? Who will prevent fraudulent use of my data? I cannot trust
Manchester Airports Plc 100% and therefore view this issue as an
invasion of my personal biometric data by an 'authority' who are
introducing it on a whim.

I carry a Manchester Airport issued ID card which allows me access to
the areas of the airport I need to carry out my job. However as a
pilot I fly out of many other UK airports and struggle to gain the
required access at times because there is no 'joined up' scheme between
airports. In my opinion all UK airport workers should hold a DfT
issued ID, which would be recognised at ALL UK airports, no matter who
owns/ operates them.

The current breed of terrorist that attack our aviation infrastructure
and transport network are so called 'clean skins', born in this country
and 'turned', therefore they would presumably be more than able to
legitimately obtain an ID card before committing any terrorist act?
Take the Glasgow bombing an an example. Respectable professionals
committing a terrorist attack. The Government, I suspect would not be
able to tell me that these people could not have applied for and been
issued a National ID card under their rules. Forcing all of us in the
industry to obtain a new ID will NOT prevent such activity and
therefore disproves the 'enhanced security' argument.

My professional association, BALPA (the British Airline Pilots
Association) have just issued a statement which echoes my comments.

I would ask you to look into this issue and welcome your comments and
feedback from the House.

Yours sincerely,

Captain xxxxx

Take a look at the report linked to above. It is pretty in depth and a real eye opener about the limitations of the current technology and the social impact of ill thought out policy.


Swedish Steve
12th Mar 2008, 09:32
I am a British Passport holder living in Sweden. I have a Swedish ID card. I acquired it when I moved to Sweden 20 years ago. It looks the same as any other Swedish ID card and there is no statement on it that I am not Swedish. You cannot live in Sweden without one. It is required to get money out of the bank, and to use a credit card in a shop. You must show it at the doctors. Theoretically, because it does not show citizenship, it cannot be used for foreign travel, but it has served me well in Oslo Helsinki and Copenhagen over the years.

Now I noticed that the first recipients of the UK card will be foreign students. So how will anyone know that they are not British? And all airport workers will have one. How many of these are not British? Soon loads of foreigners will be swanning around with British ID cards, and who will look at the small print wher it says British ID, citizen of Iraq?

View From The Ground
12th Mar 2008, 10:39
The overwhelming sentiment here is opposed to the forced introduction of the ID card. Regretably I doubt that all airport workers feel the same way, and many indeed may just be apathetic about this issue. I doubt therefore that we will be able to bring aviation to a grinding halt for even a few hours, since we would need concensus and this is likely to be unachievable. It is however possible to protest in realistic ways such as the statement from the Engineers, BALPA, and the excellent letter to an MP. If all of us who are opposed lobby effectively against this onerous imposition we may have a chance to influence a change in policy. This is really blackmail, since it will not be voluntary for those of us who work at airports, since if we refuse the ID card we will lose our jobs.

12th Mar 2008, 11:35
Just got a reply from my MP (Keith Simpson) clearly he is an opponent of ID cards, but no promise of action from him!! Can we get Ann Winterton and Keith to talk to one another and get some weight in to this issue. Clearly they work in the place that has the ability to actually make the necessary changes to this awful law making? Any more MPs being lobbied? (is that the correct spelling??)

12th Mar 2008, 11:52
I emailed every MEP for the North West and UKIP have invited me to their public open day at their conference in Morcambe, where the first speaker is from NO2ID. I have also lobbied my MP, James (brownnose) Purnell, who will not go against the Government as he is a "rising star". Still no response from my union though.

12th Mar 2008, 12:38
What is the date of this open day in Morecambe, maybe more people would be interested in turning up especially to hear what no2id have to say.

12th Mar 2008, 12:44
Moonburn - quite correct upon all issues.

Anyone else just counting the days till they can get out of this stupid industry ?

12th Mar 2008, 13:39
on the ukip site www.ukip.org/ ( if you can look past the political view of the party - be open minded so as to make an informed judgement) two thing to look at that will maybe give an insight as to where all this id stuff is comming from.
follow the link on their site for www.noremotecontrol.org
and ukip tv - the video EU parliament abandons democracy - but the battle goes on

the key words in the video seem to be EU citizenship.

Dear moderator - don't delete this please - it is relevant!

12th Mar 2008, 15:02
There is a very simple solution to all of this.... Kick the lizzard brown out, and vote for the blues, most of your current problems will go away......for now at least!:ugh:

12th Mar 2008, 15:26
I apologise for intruding on this discussion, but I would like to point out to you the following website: Innocent in London (http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html).

It's a long read but a highly informative blow-by-blow narration of a person's experience to try and get his fingerprints and DNA removed from the police (and private!) databases, after being unlawfully arrested (as determined by the IPCC) while waiting for the tube in London.

12th Mar 2008, 15:40
This is a result of the UK allowing anyone and everyone to enter the country and either claim 'political asylum', prejudice against them, or religious intolerance in their country. The UK can only blame themselves for this crass stupidity; maybe the country should not try to be as politically correct as they are, and blatantly do as other countries, ie keep the UK for those who have a true right to be here.............

12th Mar 2008, 20:53
Another extremly good read is I Fought the Law (http://www.amazon.co.uk/I-Fought-Law-Dan-Kieran/dp/0593058089/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205351498&sr=1-1) by Dan Keiran.

Please don't delete this post Mods as the book is highly relevant to the way the current Government want's to curtail out Liberties and Right to Free Speech.

12th Mar 2008, 21:59
Here is an interesting one for you... Myself along with many other British guys work for KLM. We are no longer resident in the UK, but never the less are British and flying in and out of British Airports. Shall wait to see what happens......... We find it bad enough at the moment as none of the airport security staff in the UK can understand why we dont carry BAA passes nor a pass from a UK airport but rather one from another EU Country. You should see the ID's we have to produce.....

12th Mar 2008, 23:13
Here is an interesting one for you... Myself along with many other British guys work for KLM. We are no longer resident in the UK, but never the less are British and flying in and out of British Airports. Shall wait to see what happens......... We find it bad enough at the moment as none of the airport security staff in the UK can understand why we dont carry BAA passes nor a pass from a UK airport but rather one from another EU Country. You should see the ID's we have to produce.....

You are missing the point. The national I.D will not alter your I.D requirements at British airports. It will not gain you access. It will not solve the problem of multiple airport I.D's. It will not change anything at all for you security wise....

13th Mar 2008, 15:27
I believe we should just not get one

If they insist on moving forward with this ridiculous programme then it will be very quiet.

BALPA should not need to organise a 10,000 pilot strike, which might be difficult as it is the government not our employers with whom we are in dispute. However BALPA will need to be very focused to get everyone aligned.

14th Mar 2008, 14:11
See this: http://wikileaks.cx/leak/nis-options...is-outcome.pdf for an insight into how they plan to soften us up first. The side notes are by No2ID.

A chilling read and about as Orwellian as it gets.

Pilot Pete
14th Mar 2008, 16:59
Sure that link's correct Desperate?

14th Mar 2008, 17:43
Try this:


It's a leaked report of how the Home Office cynically decided their various 'options' in selling the idea to us, the public. Quite long - 7 pages - but worth the read for those still in any doubt.

For reasons I don't understand, the above url was changed so it no longer works.
The last part of the original url ended /nis-options-analysis-outcome.pdf just in case it changes again.

14th Mar 2008, 18:53
Petition the PM at:


John Farley
14th Mar 2008, 19:41
I have read this thread with increasing fascination.

My reading of most posts is that a lot of pilots object to carrying something (in this case an ID card) and having to show it as part of their employment.

I cannot see the slightest reason to worry about such a trivial requirement. I really can't. But then I did not understand why people objected to being made to wear a high viz jacket which was last years concern.

Perhaps it is an age thing.

HOWEVER if people are objecting to having their biometric data stored in a central database then that is an ALTOGETHER different matter. I can see all sorts of reasons why that could be a very bad thing.

So would it not be better if people voted or petitioned about the real issue? Namely the problems regarding a central data base of all our info.

I suspect a lot of the general public feel they would find their lives easier with an ID card (like me who tried to open a building society account with £500 the other day and had to provide the most silly list of documents to verify who I was and then they wanted the same for my wife as it was a joint account and she by definition could not provide the utility bills required because I pay them)

So please do not let the data base thing be obscured by making a fuss about ID cards - say exactly what it is you don't want - namely the data base.

14th Mar 2008, 20:49
The current proposal using fingerprints as the biometric data, could be used to find out where you have been and not who you are. If a picture can be forged, then maybe iris scans could be used.

14th Mar 2008, 21:00
John, I think it's safe to say that the database is the issue. But since HMG are insisting that the database is an integral part of the program regarding the ID card then the two are now inseperable.

15th Mar 2008, 15:27
The safest place to keep details of my fingerprints are on the end of my fingers! If indeed I do commit a crime then my finger prints left at the scene will lead directly to me and my guilt, that is supposing that the police find me. Whilst I have not committed a crime and therefore my finger prints, DNA, Iris scans etc are still only known to me there is little chance of someone else assuming my identity other than credit cards etc.

If I wanted to commit any form of subversive action then the government having my details would not stop me all that would happen is that they would find out who I was a lot quicker AFTER THE EVENT.

This proposal is very very dangerous because it suggests that we are all suspects in the global fight on terror, whilst neatly giving the government access to our movements and quite frankly the right to spy on our financial movements and our health. Where will the use of this information go? Will Europe have the right of access to our data and use it for god knows what?

We live in a country that allows freedom of movement and speech in what is sometimes a delicate balance of trust between citizens and government. This scheme swings that balance towards the communist ideals that have long since fallen in other parts of the world where the state is all seeing and all knowing and where the state will control you.

I for one will not have an ID card and I urge us all to stand together and say no. If we don't want one then what can they do; ground every airline? There will have to be a cut off date when our applications have to be submitted prior to a start date.......if there are no applications then what will they do, send the police to our doors?

Make no mistake this is a fight we must win and we can only do so by standing together.

There can be no negotiation just a simple letter from all our unions that represent each of our sectors in aviation that states that the members will not be having their ID cards. That is what is known as democracy.


Oh that's super!
15th Mar 2008, 16:34
Why the hell should I be forced to carry a card, against my will, containing vast amounts of personal data which just happens to be contained in one database somewhere. No doubt said database will fit nicely onto a DVD that can be left on the backseat of a car somewhere.

And even if they do not lose the DVD, someone will have access to the information - and if that person happens to be someone unscrupulous, then the information is very open to all sorts of abuse.

15th Mar 2008, 16:46

The ID card itself is not an issue, all the data HMG wishes to collect as part of this "scheme" is an issue.

A Very Civil Pilot
15th Mar 2008, 17:33
just show your ID card and fixed, no difficult procedure to prove your identity

This is a case of where we are relying on the ID to be correct. If there is an assumption that the ID proves you are who you say you are, then there will be nothing to stop the criminals and terrorists, using false IDs from getting on with their business.

Despite what the government say, false IDs will eventually be out there.

15th Mar 2008, 19:19
I know who I am, my airline knows who I am, the CAA knows who I am, BAA ID department knows who I am, the passport office knows who I am, even the staff car park owners know who I am. Who else needs to know?

What other vocation has as many authorities that know who they are already?

Will I have to carry it at work at all times? Will I not be allowed airside if I don't have it?

So what is the point other than we wont have a job if we don't comply? This is pure and simply a case of Dick Turpin politics to achieve the governments desire to know all about you and eventually control you.

If it is not going to be used by the entire population then why will having one make my life easier? Because the systems already used to identify you to the bank, utilities etc will have to remain for those that don't have them.

As far as illegal immigrant workers are concerned we already have a system of ID to cover that; it is called a national insurance number! Been around for years, so if its not working who is responsible for its failure........the government.

The government have proven to be a shambolic bunch of money grabbing, self serving, snivelling, failures and they now want to have access to what is essentially information about my body and its make up and I am supposed to be comfortable with that.

No way, no way on gods green earth.


Pilot Pete
16th Mar 2008, 02:58
Interesting response to my letter to my MP received yesterday.


Clearly we are not alone in believing that the National ID card system is not being introduced for the reasons stated by our present government.


A and C
16th Mar 2008, 08:55
I don't have too much of a problem with the ID card idea, what I have a problem with is that ALL my personal data would be in one place and one security breach could result in all my data falling into the wrong hands.

With the goverment's record on data protection I don't think that they are able to keep the data secure on technical grounds alone, regulating offical access to the data is a can of worms that I won't open.

16th Mar 2008, 22:17
I live in country where ID documents/cards are mandatory to conduct most business (i.e. opening bank accounts, rent a DVD, use a library, enter some business premises, etc, etc). As a mostly unwilling participant in this scam, I believe I’m qualified to make a number of observations:

The security of your personal information is often placed in the hands of individuals who are by no means the most highly salaried members of society. This leaves the door wide open to all forms of corruption. Supplying a single disc of personal data to those with devious agendas can easily bring a financial reward equal to greater than a years pay. It therefore happens, and it happens more often than you think.

Secondly, it is laughably easy to obtain a false ID. It takes approximately three weeks to be issued with a genuine ID, while a fake takes two days - issued by a crooked government official at a somewhat higher fee. Since the fakes are produced on the same machines as the genuine articles, they are virtually impossible to spot. Identity theft is spiraling out of control over here. The net effect is that a lot more illegal immigrants are now steaming in, since an “ID” is all you need to prove your right to abode (a loophole few politicians spotted when the system was implemented).

I am not suggesting that the UK system will initially be this easy to foil, but I’m willing to bet it won’t take an eternity before the same is seen. I suggest you dig your heels in and fight this all the way.

16th Mar 2008, 23:38
Well I will have nothing to do with it. With, or without BALPA support. (where were you guys on the Iris Recognition issue...).
I'm sure those with a career-making agenda on this will be aware of our stance through this very forum, so it is important to let them know that it is not going to work.
Aviation is the security whipping boy at the moment, and once we accept national I.D. The next target will be all M.O.D. staff, Police, public servants, and so on.
The sentiment "Thin end of the wedge" says it all.
We have nothing to gain from this, remember...

17th Mar 2008, 07:24
If this wee to be brought in under the sly manner that they clearly intend why not start with MPs and those working at Westminster? Then the 'simple' service (ie Civil Servents, their own employees) am sure there are a large population there to experiment on and a captive audience....Might find a few of the illegals cleaning the offices as well!!! Surely those administering the ridiculous system should be first in line? We only have to see the posts from 'nhs' here to see the access to the data base will be flawed from the word go. Anyone in a newspaper knows that flaws in data access to the Police National Computer.

There again the Cash for Honours investigation proved the old saying that there is one rule for us and one for the rest of you.....(No DNA testing of those arrested in that case. Lord Levy et all .....Why?).:mad:

17th Mar 2008, 08:32
Spanners, they would never impose it on themselves or their staff as it would show how many illegals are working for them...

Can't have that, can we.

17th Mar 2008, 11:44
I sent an e-mail to my MP on Saturday night.

I had a personal phone call from him at 09:05 this morning.

I was impressed!
If people do feel strongly about this then please, please do something. There do appear to be some politicians who are prepared to listen.

17th Mar 2008, 13:01
This is the reply from my MP, much in the same vein as Lady Winterton's.

Conservatives are firmly opposed to ID cards on a number of grounds: The cards will not work, they are a waste of money, and they are an invasion of privacy. My colleague David Davis, the Shadow Home Secretary, has made it clear that, if the Conservatives win the next election, his first act will be to scrap the scheme. He has written to the Cabinet Secretary to inform him of this.

The Government has recently revised the timescale of the ID cards plan, meaning that it won’t be until after the next General Election that ID cards will be available with passports. The Government has also announced plans to introduce them to students and airport workers earlier which is I think just another attempt to introduce ID cards incrementally. Airport workers are already subject to intense scrutiny due to the obvious security issues that exist at key sites such as airports. I believe that the Government is contriving to implement by spin and stealth it’s now utterly discredited plan for the ID cards.

The Home Secretary’s suggestion that there won’t be a central database is pure spin – personal details will still be clustered on a national identity register, a sitting target for criminal hackers and terrorists. I do not trust the Government to manage the amount of data that the database will retain, especially following the astonishing loss of data from HM Revenue and Customs. They have lost the argument, and I believe the public’s trust. It’s time that they faced up to these stark truths and ditched ID cards for good.

17th Mar 2008, 14:04
I'm Pro ID Cards. I don't see why BALPA should come out and say Pilots are against the idea? Did they conduct a survey? They didn't ask me!

Paradise Lost
17th Mar 2008, 22:30
Well Rebellion, you seem to be in a minority of 2 on this post so far, so even if Balpa were to conduct a survey it wouldn't change the general feeling expressed here.
That same witch, The Hon Jaqui Smith,today features in the press for trying to amend the rules so that white indigenous men cannot complain about unfair selection/interview processes, while all others not in that category retain the right to legally challenge any decisions! Seems to me that she is not likely to be in the least interested in the views of a bunch of middle class skilled workers like us, unless she recieves sufficient flak from our democratically elected representatives (her colleagues!).
This is just another unacceptable imposition by this "Big Brother" government that we elected, who delight in trampling on our freedoms and our human rights.

18th Mar 2008, 17:10
I'm Pro ID Cards. I don't see why BALPA should come out and say Pilots are against the idea? Did they conduct a survey? They didn't ask me!
Maybe because you haven't quite grasped the thrust of the argument???:ugh:
Even when we are discriminated against and forced to have these cards on threat of dismissal, we will not be required to carry it. As the rest of the country will not voluntarily participate the showing of other forms of ID will continue in the greater world.
Iteresting replies from MP's......I can't see this Government getting any votes from this voter in the future

19th Mar 2008, 00:07
Simplest way to get on an a/c is buy a ticket. Go through pax control, then use airport pass to access apron if necessary. Other route is to get an airport pass from non-UK airfield, combined with aircrew licence must allow access. In all other EU countries official ID is a passport, (photograph), driving licence (photograph) or national ID card (photograph). You have to have a passport to be a commercial pilot, so further ID is not required. If so, it would imply non acceptance of passport as ID. That is absurd.

19th Mar 2008, 10:21
Petition here for those that haven't signed it and feel like doing so:


22nd Mar 2008, 20:41
Copied below is a good post on the No2ID forum:


>>I think NO2ID should start appealing to airport workers to get in touch. I mean basically I see it as the whole project pivoting around this initial trial. If we can get the government to pull out of it then we are on the right track, but if they accept then it's like the net drawing in considerably closer and to some more than others.<<


>>those groups who don't protest will be the first in line. The airport workers appeared to accept all the post 9/11 'security' measures so this is what happens to compliant people. We must get out of this mindset that keeping your head down is the safest thing to do, it is not and my experience is a little resistance and you will get clobbered, a lot of resistance and they will never dare argue with you, but this is only the case after having a proven track record of success over their prior attempts to subjugate you. One big hit is worth more than a lot of small ones as well. If they did strike, whether legal or otherwise, and they did it so that the airports were crippled to the point the government had no choice it would not mean they would all loose their jobs, indeed they would be in a privileged position and this would apply to anything the governmnet/managment were thinking of doing to them in future.<<


>>So what I think we should do is try and get some of these people on board and work together to solve this problem. As time gets closer there will be many worried airport staff and being in a strong group is very good in that you are not alone and it will give them strength. ark. The government love to isolate groups and we should do the reverse.<<

1st Apr 2008, 07:44
A really excellent No2ID pop video:


It had me in stitches.

2nd Apr 2008, 18:34
Got my reply from my MP:

Dear Radar 707

Thank you for your email.

I have read it with interest and I regret to disappoint you but I
support what the Government is proposing on ID cards. I am grateful to
you for letting me know your views and, if I can be of further help, do
please let me know.

Yours sincerely

Bill Olner MP

Sign the petition: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

2nd Apr 2008, 20:31
More polite than my MP, he hasn't bothered replying. I am toying with the idea of going to one of his surgeries.

Another TD
2nd Apr 2008, 23:49
Personally I believe it's a must and the sooner it's brought in the better. why? I hear you all shouting. Because 2 years ago an investigation found a big player at LHR had it's cabins cleaned by illegal immigrants (subsequently proved) from the horn of Africa. They had all passed security checks to obtain a BAA airside card.
Here is the best bit.... when the cleaning team have finished cleaning the cabin the team leader places, usually just in front of the ECAM screen, a signed sheet of paper which states that the cabin has been security checked...by an illegal immigrant from an country saturated with Islamic extremists! Probably they were decent chaps but who knows!
So when you all moan about additional cards I wonder if you are truly aware of what’s going on out there. The imposition of these cards is aimed not so much at you but more at the real unknown's who have access to your aircraft.
I'm Curious. Do you also want security cameras removed from our town centres now crime has been moved on from there, how about scrapping passports and lets not waste time with the national DNA data base that could solve a rape/murder in hours!
I feel happy that I live in country that is using as much technology as it can to prevent me and my family being harmed, If you dont like it try living in Mogadishu!
Happy and very safe flying.

Pilot Pete
3rd Apr 2008, 00:13
Another TD

Let's hope you never find yourself trying to prove your innocence when an element of YOUR biometric data is found at the scene of a crime.....you really think this lot is more foolproof than the current systems? Have the government EVER delivered an IT project of this magnitude? Securely? :rolleyes: Read the report from the Royal Society of Engineering. You, like most of the general public seem to believe the spin that is peddled when the reality and limitations of this technology is far from secure. You reckon it is a good idea to have ALL our data in one form that is 'easy' to use and verify, thus making it quicker and easier for me to change jobs! (latest quote from the Home Office in response to my letter). Easy to use, all in one record, in the hands of our current government with such an excellent record regarding security of personal data.:rolleyes:


3rd Apr 2008, 07:45
Another TD

So far I have seen nothing that would prevent your 'illegal' immigrants getting a national ID card.

5th Apr 2008, 09:42
Does anyone know how active BALPA are going to be in the anti ID Card campaign?
After the initial press release it's gone quiet.

5th Apr 2008, 16:29
Also awaiting the ALAE position on this.....
Bout time that pr*ck Smith at the Home office was removed?:}

5th Apr 2008, 16:49
Lets cut the nonsense here. I live in a modern westernised country smack bang in the middle of Europe. ID cards are compulsory.

It has no effect on crime, no effect on immigration and in fact the 9/11 bombers lived and worked and studied there.

Wake up all you fools who think this is going to improve anything. It is nothing more than big brother, serves no purpose other than control, but finally and probably most importantly, your life is placed on a database that will be monitored and maintained by idiots who will undoubtedly lose or sell some of the information.

Great Britain and the United Kingdom became Great without such id's, Great Britain and the United Kingdom always stood up for what was right, freedom and democracy without burdening the individual citizen with legal requirements.

However we are now part of Europe. That says it all.

6th Apr 2008, 23:31
Good post....:ok:

9th Apr 2008, 09:27
This is how ID cards could end up being used:

http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf (http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf)

Don't like the idea? then sign the petition:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

9th Apr 2008, 18:59
Flying Lawyer,

If you're perusing this argument, a quick question for you:

Should the government get this in and we refused to participate and subsequently had to resign from our jobs, would we have a case for constructive dismissal against the government? (My knowledge of employment law is a little rusty!!)

9th Apr 2008, 21:09
Good Post Radar 707....surely the proponents of this awful idea realise the genie they will let out of the bottle if this were to be introduced?:*

9th Apr 2008, 22:17

It would appear that they don't know, which is why we should make our voices heard now before it gets too late

James Beam
9th Apr 2008, 23:06
Radar 707 .... that simulation is both brilliant and chilling.Via various means most of that data exists within many systems currently in use.However that one unique number is the key to tying everything about you together. The data and systems are cheap and easy and the data is a very valuable and marketable commodity! That whole simulation neatly encapsulates our near term future. If anyone can say this CANNOT happen ... ill sign up for a card tomorrow!....aint gonna happen!:D

Big mustache
12th Apr 2008, 07:21
If the scheme is indeed going to be "voluntary" for all non aircrews, you can bet your bottom dollar it will not remain so long. The Government know most people are against ID cards, and to add insult to injury are going to make you pay a kings ransom out of our own bloody pockets for the damn things!

Welcome to Britain.

12th Apr 2008, 08:03

same here, we have ID cards too but I fail to see the connection with "Europe"?
ID cards in the UK have been talked about for years but its only now that Brown (and Bliar before him) have really pushed this...

...while I remember, as an EU citizen YOU vote for you MEPs - if you don't like how they behave you can VOTE them out, go and visit them, phone them, email them etc etc...its called democracy but you do get the government you voted for and if you fail to make your views known (BALPA have gone quiet) then they'll ride all over you.

E145 Driver

Desk Jockey
12th Apr 2008, 19:38
The physical ID card is not the point. It's the biometric data held which will determine identity. You are your own ID card. If someone else gets in first and registers themselves as you you will cease to exist. Or at least you will have to register as someone else. I don't suppose anyone will want to register as Willie so at least he is safe!
Hows that for thread drift?:E

12th Apr 2008, 20:38
Sign the petition

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

Lets make our voices heard

13th Apr 2008, 15:35
hi fc101

my point about europe is that most euro countries already have id cards. The current uk govt want to appear "european".

My point being that the statistics for the uk as a country not having id cards is no better and no worse than any other in europe over a wide range of issues.

Therefore it wont make any difference if they are biometric id's, dna id's or no id's. Someone determined to pull off a disgraceful act will do it regardless.

Therefore the only possible explanation for wanting so much info on a national database is nothing more than big brother.

13th Apr 2008, 16:01
Dont worry the computer system is being ordered by civil servents and speced by them it`ll never work.

14th Apr 2008, 10:24
Dont worry the computer system is being ordered by civil servents and speced by them it`ll never work.

Surely that's even more reason to worry about this system!!

14th Apr 2008, 12:45
Dont worry the computer system is being ordered by civil servents and speced by them it`ll never work.
Surely that's even more reason to worry about this system!!

And it's us that pays for it.
I’m not a pilot and sorry for butting into this very important issue. I do however work in IT (sorry) and I’m appalled by this scheme. IT analysts reckon this will ultimate cost about £300 per person to build i.e. about £19,500,000,000. Quite apart from the privacy issues, this epic waste of money needs to be stopped NOW!

14th Apr 2008, 21:53
Given that the government is fighting the release of progress reports of the whole ID card scheme on the grounds that they need to keep them secret otherwise civil servants will not be honest in their assessment of the progress of the system (i.e. while it's secret the civil servants can say it's all a steaming pile of cr:yuk:p but if it gets published they have to toe the official line).

Someone ought to point out to Gordon and Lackey Jackie that if they've got nothing to hide then they've got nothing to fear by making the reports public.

15th Apr 2008, 06:27
Exactly well said.....I see BALPA and ALAE have all gone quiet on this?

15th Apr 2008, 12:29
Unfortunately, most colleages seem to have their heads firmly buried in the sand on this one. BALPA were commendably quick to take the lead and issue their press release, but sadly the overwhelming apathy amongst the membership may have been detected by head office.

19th Apr 2008, 06:52
This month's 'Log' has a statement about ID cards. The relevant bit is:

''The UK Government has announced that from 2009 all airport workers, including aircrew, will be required to apply for UK national ID cards in addition to the airport ID cards we carry at present. This is to be part of a Government response to give 'customers' - i.e. the British public, you and me - more choice over whether such ID cards are useful!

Several unions/associations including BALPA have already issued statements objecting to the government's plan. If YOU feel strongly about this issue,

e-mail Sara Marshall of the Identity and Passport Office at:

[email protected]

Include the words 'consultation response' in the title, and ensure you respond by 30th June 2008. "

Is this a strong or a weak position?

Wig Wag
21st Apr 2008, 07:00
How completely wet of BALPA. What this says is that they are not going to lift a finger on the issue.

So, a pilot whose airside pass need renewing and gets a letter from the Home Office instructing him or her to attend for an 'innterrogation' interview will get absoulutely no support from BALPA. No ID Card, no airside pass. Simple as that. Phone up BALPA to complain? Sorry, you had the right to object up until 30th June 2008.

Will it make any difference objecting? Probably not but if it's the only thing you can do to stop ID Cards then it's worth five minutes spent writing the e-mail.

BALPA HQ, of course, don't need airside passes so won't be forced to have ID Cards. Maybe that's why they are not interested in a fight.

21st Apr 2008, 09:01
What's the lifetime of an airside pass? Is it useful for anyone with a pass near expiry date to accidentally feed it to the dog
and so need a new one now rather than when the new rules came in? A lot of people have renewed passports early so as to avoid that side of ID cards - mine now doesn't expire for ten years so they won't get me by that route until then.

Losing it would no doubt create all sorts of problems, presenting a chewed but identifiable one for replacement would be less of an issue.

21st Apr 2008, 12:22
They will just cancel your Airside ID so it won't matter if you have just renewed it. It will be shut down on the computer and you will not be granted access.
However, It is not linked to or replaces your Airside ID in anyway.

21st Apr 2008, 13:15
As I understand it you will be called forward for your ID Cards when you apply for a new pass or your existing pass expires. The use of a 'stage' approach is designed to counter mass opposition. It will be down to people refusing and protesting in dribs and drabs.

Think about it, if you have spent a fortune on a CPL are you going to refuse your first airline job because you don't want an ID card?

Issuing ID cards in this piecemeal way is a highly divisive tactic and designed to be difficult to oppose.

23rd Apr 2008, 14:13
I don’t know how authentic this is – but……

Don't you wish that you had written this?

Subject: Passport Application

Dear Minister,

I'm in the process of renewing my passport and I am at a total loss to understand or believe the hoops through which I am being asked to jump.

How is it that Bert Smith, of T.V. Rentals Basingstoke, has my address and telephone number and knows that I bought a satellite dish from him back in 1994, and yet the Government is still asking me where I was born and on what date?

How come that nice West African immigrant chappy who comes round every Thursday night with his DVD rentals van can tell me every film or video I have had out since he started his business up eleven years ago, yet you still want me to remind you of my last three jobs, two of which were with contractors working for the government?

How come the T.V. detector van can tell if my T.V. is on, what channel I am watching and whether I have paid my licence or not, and yet, if I win the government-run lottery, they have no idea I have won, or where I am, and will keep the bloody money to themselves if I fail to claim in good time. Do you people do this by hand?

You have my birth date on numerous files you hold on me, including the one with all the income tax forms I've filed for the past 30-odd years. It's on my health insurance card, my driver's licence, on the last four passports I've had, on all those stupid customs declaration forms I've had to fill out before being allowed off planes and boats over the last 30 years, and all those insufferable census forms that are done every ten years and the electoral registration forms I have to complete, by law, every time our lords and masters are up for re-election.

Would somebody please take note, once and for all, of the following: I was born in Maidenhead on the 4th of March 1957, my mother's name is Mary, her maiden name was Reynolds, my father's name is Robert, and I'd be astounded if there are amendments between now and the day I die!

I apologise Minister. I'm obviously not myself this morning. But between you and me, I have simply had enough! You mail the application to my house, then you ask me for my address. What is going on? Do you have a gang of Neanderthals working for you? Look at my damn picture. Do I look like Bin Laden? I don't want to activate the Fifth Reich for God's sake! I just want to go and park my weary backside on a sunny, sandy beach for two weeks’ well-earned rest away from all this nonsense.

Well, I have to go now, because I have to go to back to Salisbury and get another copy of my birth certificate because you lost the last one. AND to the tune of 60 quid! What a racket THAT is!! Would it be so complicated to have all the services in the same spot to assist in the issuance of a new passport the same day? But nooooo, that'd be too damn easy and maybe make sense. You'd rather have us running all over the place like chickens with our heads cut off, then find some tosser to confirm that it's really me on the goddamn picture - you know... the one where we're not allowed to smile in case we look as if we are enjoying the process!
Hey, you know why we can't smile? 'Cause we're totally jacked off!

I served in the armed forces for more than 25 years including over ten years at the Ministry of Defence in London. I have had security clearances which allowed me to sit in the Cabinet Office, five seats away from the Prime Minister while he was being briefed on the first Gulf War. I have been doing volunteer work for the British Red Cross ever since I left the Services. However, I have to get someone "important" to verify who I am -- you know, someone like my doctor…..who , before he got his medical degree 6 months ago WAS LIVING IN PAKISTAN ...

Yours sincerely,
An Irate British Citizen.

23rd Apr 2008, 21:01

The government is about to force aircrew to volunteer their acceptance of the national ID scheme.

Aircrew to lead the way for all citizens of the UK by walking blindly into a loss of freedom.

only 245 have bothered to sign the petition!

Am shocked and admit to being a little frightened by our blind acceptance.

24th Apr 2008, 07:09
Am shocked and admit to being a little frightened by our blind acceptance.

Me too. But what is BALPA going to do? If a pilot refuses to turn up for an 'interrogation' interview will BALPA just stand by and see the pilot lose his job? It strikes me that the Log statement is a crafty political move by the BALPA wheels. They want to maintain an anti ID Card stance but have batted the ball back to the pilots to do the actual protesting. Yes, everyone should send an e-mail to the Identity and Passport Office opposing ID Cards. But if this 'campaign' is not better orchestrated their will be a weak response and ID Cards will be pushed on us.

BALPA need to show, publicly, a lot more muscle to make their anti ID Cards stance seem more credible.

Everyone will hate the ID Cards scheme when it hits them. Once your details are on the National Identity Register they stay there until five years after the calender date of your death.

Why not protest now, before it's too late?

24th Apr 2008, 11:01
The number of signatories on the petition is disappointing, however it is still early days.
If you object then make your voice heard, sign the petition

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

24th Apr 2008, 12:33
There is a demonstrable unity over this issue. Seldom have I witnessed pilots in such clear agreement on a subject. That should tell BALPA something about what the next move should be.

As someone said earlier in the thread everyone has to stick together but to be effective you need an organisation as a hub. Who could be better than the pilot's union. If not BALPA then perhaps the IPA?

Thanks to tapilot for that brilliant quote & yes I do wish I had. However I'll add one thing to that. When discussing ID cards with a friend who lives in Spain, where they are compulsory, it is truly shocking how it seeps into every corner of your life. The Spanish govt don't have the Stasi realated approach that the UK has & so there's no database, it's just left over from Franco but...

If they did organise it like the Brits intend to, then you can bet similar practices will develop as it's just so easy to justify. You need to produce your card and enter the number on a form if: You collect a letter from the post office, buy a mobile phone, join any organisation, deal with any official body - including your doctor, stay in a hotel, the list goes on & on. Practically everything basically. With a UK style database a complete picture of your life is there for those with access to see, which will no doubt include the Inland Revenue & that's probably what this is partly about anyway. Pilots are simply being used to slip it in the back door.

To the barricades I think. It worked for the Pole Tax & is demonstrably the only way they listen. Normal protests don't deflect politicians, they watch note & do it anyway (Iraq) so a strike is the only sensible counter measure.

PS: Less than 250 signatures on the petition, which will be taken as tacit acceptance of the idea. Remember the guy who was fined £210 because his wheelie bin wasn't fully closed. They mean business.

24th Apr 2008, 13:34
I am utterley against ID cards and will refuse to have one but the No.10 petitions are pointless. I have signed lots and the responses are always "We are right so we are not changing our minds". The only exceptions are the ones about things which turn out to be untrue like the refusal to have The Red Arrows at the London Olympics and the compulsory scrapping of old cars.

I suspect that the only use, if any, "they" make of the petitions is to compile lists of trouble makers!

24th Apr 2008, 14:17
I am utterley against ID cards and will refuse to have one but the No.10 petitions are pointless.

So how do we protest against ID Cards if BALPA do nothing more than make a couple of announcements?

24th Apr 2008, 14:42
I am utterley against ID cards and will refuse to have one but the No.10 petitions are pointless.

They aren't useless, especially when the press get hold of them and start digging deeper into exactly what the petitions are all about. Problem at the moment is that only BALPA have made any sort of official statement about this, the ATC union are against it (or so they say) but are not going to make any form of statement at this time, as for cabin crew, engineers etc, I just don't know.
All I do know is that if HMG is going to force this on us then we need to be as vocal as possible in our opposition.

sign the petition:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

24th Apr 2008, 23:12
I believe that BALPA along with other airport unions are meeting with HMG as we post. Initially, to get a feel for exactly what the government is up to. I assume they will make more announcements and conult with members once they have all the facts. All the other politiacal parties are against, so I suggst in the meantime, everyone writes to their MP and BALPA laying out their objections.

I suspect that HMG are trying to play it softly softly by implying that only basic information will be recorded. If that's the case, why bother.

If the police and immgration services had my details and dabs on a secre system I wouldn't be too concerned (the yanks already have this), but what worries me is all the extra information which is likely to be added and the fact that it is bound to be spread around many departments and possibly private companies.

One airport aready has my iris scan it's only a matter of time before they have fingerprints too. What happens when the monopoly is finally broken and asdasco corportation (owned by US giant Wallnut-market) buys the airport?:eek:

25th Apr 2008, 06:40
Apart from the fact that I am totally against ID cards I must laugh at the arrogance of most of the posters.

Most unions are running around lobbying, campaigning against this while you idiots state from the luxury of your arm chairs, "BALPA aren't doing anything, what about the cabin crew and engineering unions?"

Well if any of you were decent enough to pay your dues and participate in protecting your future, you wouldn't have the need to make such stupid comments because you would be aware of what is going on.

Unions are not obliged to keep non member armchair spectators informed.
It's your own fault and nobody else's when this is forced upon us.

25th Apr 2008, 09:34
Most unions are running around lobbying, campaigning against this

Apparantly not!!

You're right unions aren't obliged to keep non members up to date with what is going on, however as a fully paid up union member, I am disappointed that my union has done nothing about this (despite my querying their position) and was told they will make some sort of announcement later, but as yet do not have a position although, they expect to be against it!

25th Apr 2008, 09:54
It worked for the Pole Tax

An what tax was that one - it must have passed me by. I have a number of poles in my garden -should I be worried? Perhaps its is a special tax for Poles. Then they must have been worried as well. Why no Albanian tax?

25th Apr 2008, 10:26

without knowing exactly who your union is its difficult to comment. However a quick search of most websites will show that most unions involved with aviation have made clear statements.

I have yet to find one that supports this move but that isn't to say there isn't one.

Situations such as this are not easy to influence and take a hell of a lot of work. If every word spoken or every letter written had to be relayed back to the membership there would be no time to achieve anything.

Show some respect and trust your union to deal with as best they can. Your union will be the only body supporting you on this. Alienate them as well and we have all lost

29th Apr 2008, 09:11
I e-mailed all my local party election candidates for their views on this, so far only the conservative candidate has replied:

As for the ID Card scheme, I absolutely oppose it, as does my party and the Parliamentary candidate, Simon Rouse. Whilst not being opposed to carrying one as I have nothing to hide, the security implications are staggering. The justifications proposed by the Government do not hold water. By Spain ’s own admission, ID Cards would not have prevented the Madrid Train Bombings, and an inquiry into 7/7 in London found that they were using their own identities and ID Cards would not have prevented it. A terrorist with the know-how will find a way to obtain an identity, legally or not.

Secondly, it will not, in my view, prevent ID theft. In fact, I fear rather the opposite. Once all of the data about a person is on a card it would give the ID thief every single piece of information that they would need to assume someone’s identity. There has not been a computer system or programme devised that is 100% hacker proof, and the Government’s record on IT systems leaves a lot to be desired.

Finally, the cost of the proposed scheme is staggering. I absolutely refuse to pay upwards of £100 for a card to prove I am who I say I am. It is up to the state to prove otherwise, not for me. The state has always been subservient to the subjects, not vice-versa. I would rather that the money went into crime and terrorism prevention.

29th Apr 2008, 09:45
Maybe we should all pester the unions to get together and on mass call for these ID cards to be dropped.

Is it not bad enough that we are already CRC checked, video'd through out our working day, occasionally molested when going through security with wallets, money and credit cards inspected? I have never seen any evidence of airside workers or crew, who could directly cause any terrorist activity, shown in the news. Would ID cards prevent someone acomplishing this?

I'm sure our anti terrorist/ security services have a list of all airport workers and there's a database with "security risk" employees already logged on it.. probably why friends and colleagues of mine of asian origin get stopped whilst driving by the airport police for no other offence than the colour of their skin... albeit getting an apology afterwards via a letter... a fine way of being treated after working 20+ years as a professional.

After being sexually assaulted a few weeks back by security (see the engineers forum) the reply from my local labour MP was that after a visit to LGW her thoughts were that further security measures we needed... Roll on the next general election!

7th May 2008, 20:45

7th May 2008, 21:30
Radar sad but true!! This is what this bunch of (fascists) in Downing St want us to do!!! Bash our heads on the wall, give up and go away....we need to mobilise an effort against this draconian policy!! Looks like we are all walking in to the showers!!! :}

7th May 2008, 22:56
I wrote to my (Labour) MP enquiring as to why an ID card would improve security when I already have to carry my passport, flightcrew licence, company and airport IDs at all times.

Eventually, and at the second attempt, she replied along the lines of 'safety', 'terrorism', 'illegal immigrants', 'wouldn't be doing my job as an MP if I didn't protect your security' etc.

Judging by last week's local elections, she won't be my MP for much longer. :ok:

7th May 2008, 23:11
Maybe this has already been mentioned, but this evening's BBC Newsnight (UK version) contained an item (the first item) about CRB checks not being required for non-UK originating citizens accessing and working in airside areas!
Apparently it's been that way for the last five years so who knows what sleeper cells are nestled about!

The minister questioned about this (and who drafted the bill allowing this) didn't think it was a problem because accessing airside still requires physical security screening - this obviously misses the point about security risks and of course doesn't mentioned whether the same applies to security screening staff.

I got the feeling towards the end of the questioning that the 'solution' that will come out of this will be the forced introduction of ID cards. I can't see that as necessarily solving the problem as it'd only prove identity not the successful pass of a CRB check but nevertheless doesn't bode well for both security nor the ID card debatable.

7th May 2008, 23:25
Yeah, I saw that and the Minister said the foreigners didn't need the check as they were screened before entering airside. If this is good enough for them then why do British nationals need this extra waste of time and money! Surely it should be the same for one and all. It is either needed or going through the metal detector is enough!!!

8th May 2008, 00:13
#s 145 & 146,

The Newsnight report hit the spot.

Every job these days requires proof of the right to work in the UK.

The majority of jobs require you to hold a "licence" proving your competence.

Security guards (minimum wage employees) need an SIA certificate (means nothing, by the way).

But foreign nationals working airside don't need a clear CRB check. Or, in fact, any CRB check

You need a clear CRB check to deliver mail (I've done that recently just in case any readers think that's derogatory).

So, when the next a/c I fly in as a passenger is sabotaged by a foreign national convicted of terrorism, I'll die happy knowing that the NuLabour Government saved time and money to get them into a low paid job.

8th May 2008, 18:13
Apart from the fact that I am totally against ID cards I must laugh at the arrogance of most of the posters.

Most unions are running around lobbying, campaigning against this while you idiots state from the luxury of your arm chairs, "BALPA aren't doing anything, what about the cabin crew and engineering unions?"

Well if any of you were decent enough to pay your dues and participate in protecting your future, you wouldn't have the need to make such stupid comments because you would be aware of what is going on.

Unions are not obliged to keep non member armchair spectators informed.
It's your own fault and nobody else's when this is forced upon us. 24th April 2008 23:12Well this sort of language hardly endears people who are not in a union minded. As a rep for many many years in the aviation industry I can honestly say I don't view those non members as you do. I do try to educate them and over the years have had some success. Part of this is keeping all the workforce informed of progress or problems.
Anyway back on topic.
The unions are not for ID cards and most have come out and said so. The problem we have is the impact on aviation workers as the front line for testing the issue of cards.
At this moment there are consultations going forward a third meeting is due for the end of the month. I would not like to pre-judge the outcome of that.
I personally am opposed both the national issue of ID cards and obviously with the aviation issue.
My view is we should be saying 'No we ain't doing it!' full stop. However, things are moving a bit slower than that.
Many of us are fighting this, not only for our members but for the freedom of all the UK citizens.
Talking of which, one of our main stumbling blocks is the complete ignorance of the general workforce as to what the ID card database actually means.
Those who realise the dangers should make it a task to educate at least one person per day on the dangers. Hopefully this will create a ripple effect and spread the news the Government wants to suppress.
If I get any information I will post on here.

8th May 2008, 19:22
Sign the petition, e-mail it to your friends and family, get them to e-mail it to their friends and family, lets make people aware that this is the start of the slippery slope into the compulsory introduction of this diabolical scheme for every man woman and child in the country.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

Jim McAusland - General Secretary, British Airline Pilots' Association
"The implication of not being able to work as a pilot without a UK ID is nothing short of coercion. It also raises questions about the many professional non-UK pilots flying for UK airlines who will not be able to secure an ID card.
On a practical level, and from what is known about the plans, this would be an additional requirement to the existing criminal record check, the five-year reference check, the airside pass process, which itself varies from airport to airport, and the inconsistent security regimes practised at check-in at individual airports. The combination of all of these existing checks is already seen by the majority of pilots as unco-ordinated, intrusive and unprofessional,
and has been shown in surveys to be highly stressful and a growing threat to flight safety. The home secretary's proposals offer no improvements in security or any other benefits, as far as we can see."

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

9th May 2008, 07:41
Petition signed and posted on another aviation forum.....


9th May 2008, 09:20
The unions are not for ID cards and most have come out and said so. The problem we have is the impact on aviation workers as the front line for testing the issue of cards.
At this moment there are consultations going forward a third meeting is due for the end of the month. I would not like to pre-judge the outcome of that.

Precisely. ID Cards for pilots will be introduced piecemeal when applying for a new or expired airside pass. Thus BALPA will have to fight the Government on a case by case basis. If you refuse to be issued with an ID Card you won't get an airside pass and will lose you job. Simple as that.

Who is going to help you in this situation? BALPA need to affirm that they will give legal help to pilots sacked at the political instigation of the government.

9th May 2008, 10:16
Precisely. ID Cards for pilots will be introduced piecemeal when applying for a new or expired airside pass.

If you are free to apply early (as you are for a passport) then all do it now. If you need to feed it to the dog so you can get a replacement for a damaged card then that's another option. Of course, this only works if the particular form of ID is valid for a reasonable length of time, although yearly renewals would mean there were enough people at one time to make a fight of it.

Wig Wag
15th May 2008, 06:50
Well, at least the Engineers are fighting:

The Association of Licensed Aircraft Engineers had a letter about ID Cards in Flight International this week. I can't find a link but the relevant extracts are:

'The UK civil aviation workforce is already harrassed and impeded in and around its working environment. This is caused by the antagonistic manner adopted by some security officers. A person in an upset state of mind should not be checking the safety of the aircraft before its departure,

We ask the UK Home Office what difference will be made by carrying yet another ID pass to assist security measures? Will it get the engineer airside at all airports in the UK? We already prove who we are to get past security; do we really need this expensive ID card?

Our association is fundamentally opposed to any government initiative that places even more unnecessary burdens on innocent sections of the population who are only trying to make a living. We believe that the government should listen to those who will suffer this draconian edict, rather than make a decision that is enforced on the workers employed in civil aviation by those who have no knowledge, or even seem to care about those who suffer these stifling security regimes.'

BALPA you need to sharpen you game.

15th May 2008, 09:42
A Conservative government will not introduce these dreadful ID cards. So do what you can to assist the suicide of the current Labour lot. Sorry to mention party politics but it is relevant to this discussion.

Foxy Loxy
15th May 2008, 19:09
avoman, you are spot on there.

Let's hope the rest of the UK opens their eyes to the current shambles in charge in time for the next election.


16th May 2008, 11:53
Gotta love Teh Sun.

They have since been living in West London rent-free and on state benefits at an annual cost of £150,000 to the taxpayer.

So that'd be roughly £0.003 per taxpayer over the conveniently omitted time period.

Avoman : if you think the Conservatives won't introduce national ID of some form or another I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

16th May 2008, 23:08

Last I checked he hijacked an airliner to the UK because he was *anti* Taliban, therefore nominally on 'our' side, as much as there are sides in this debacle. Also, it's worth bringing up the number of Afghan hijackers in the WTC attacks (zero, they were all Saudi, Egyptian or Lebanese). As for the taxpayer funded side of things, as usual the Sun is high on moral outrage but low on specifics. He could be an intelligence asset.

The simple fact is that we don't know, and that story is designed to generate maximum outrage with minimum actual detail.

Norman Stanley Fletcher
16th May 2008, 23:46
There is really only one question to ask ourselves - do we wish to discourage would-be hijackers in order to prevent mayhem in the skies? Two supplementary questions worthy of consideration may be - do we believe that hijacking an aircraft under any circumstances is fundamentally wrong and should we as a nation do absolutely everything in our power to discourage it? If the answer to any or all of those questions is a firm yes, then this sorry tale should alarm us greatly.

To me this issue transcends party politics and there is nothing I have seen or heard from any of the 3 main parties that would make me believe any of them would fundamentally change the ludicrous situation that now prevails. Nonetheless, if you want a snapshot of where we are as a nation then this case is as good as it gets. The key thing to me is that it is utterly irrelevant which 'special interest' group a particular group of hijackers represent. Whether it is Islamic Jihad, the Red Army Faction, the Animal Liberation Front, the IRA, ETA or the dispossessed of any nation on Earth - should that be a factor in our response to aircraft terrorism? If we wish to stamp out hijacking, and it seems to me that most civilised people say they do, then we have to say that hijacking an aircraft under any circumstance of any kind is utterly wrong. That being the case, justice must be done and seen to be done - that means being tough. Therefore to welcome hijackers into our midst, provide accommodation, pay them benefits and cater for their every need simply says to the world that hijacking works. If, however, we impose substantial custodial sentences on hijackers, regardless of why they chose to act criminally in the first place, that sends a clear warning that the UK is not the place to come to.

If I was looking to hijack an aircraft because of difficult circumstances in my home country there is no other nation on Earth I would rather come to more than Britain. This is not a political issue - it is a sign that within our judicial system, the lunatics have taken over the asylum. These are the same people who every day of the week hand out ludicrous sentences for very serious crimes. These judges are buffoons, staggering about in a different world to the one everyone else lives in. All we have done is guarantee that more hijackers will come to Britain in search of life's good deals - and frankly who could blame them?

17th May 2008, 01:41
NSF, I suspect that the treatment of hijackers by the UK security and immigration services would be a very different kettle of fish these days. The Ariana 727 hijacking predated the WTC attacks by a over a year and since then, as we all know, the situation has irreversibly changed for the foreseeable future.

What this has to do with pilot ID cards is rapidly dissipating though, and I don't want to take us too far off-topic.

17th May 2008, 02:18
There was an earlier Ariana B-727 hijack involving only the crewmembers' families as pax. It was in the mid-1980's and the young captain led his crew from Kabul to Rome where they were granted asylum by U.S. authorities.

Years later my friend Mohammed B. is a U.S. citizen and a captain with a major merging airline based in ATL.

Foxy Loxy
17th May 2008, 21:01
Mods, I really think you have missed the point of this thread.... It should have been made a Sticky in R&N, not shunted down to JB