Spare seat anyone?

[Boing7117]

Just finished a bout of integrated training. Still in the hunt to secure employment.

I've got a CPL / IR (A) - but with only 150 hours I'd really like to get those hours up.

Can anyone point me in the direction of an outfit that might operate a fleet of Seneca's or something similar and could consider letting a bloke like me do say, positioning flights etc - or even acting as co-pilot?

There would obviously be NO need to pay me. I would hopefully be helping someone out, and I will be able to keep a hand in my flying at the same time.

Bit of a long shot. Still, if you don't ask......

[Chippie Chappie]

Boing7117,

If you offer to work for nothing, that's how you will be valued. People might even call you a few nasty names. I know that it can feel quite desperate to get that first job but you will win no friends yet gain many enemies if you offer to work for free. Feel free to delete your post.

Chips

[FL470]

You can't log co-pilot time on a Seneca! So there's no use doing this.
You can log PIC time in a Seneca, but I doubt that any serious outfit would let you fly a Seneca in IFR conditions and single-pilot with 150 hours logged.

Try to apply with Easyjet, Swiss, Lufthansa or any other airline which hires low-timers.

At the moment the industry is booming. Just hang in there and you will find a job where you get paid for and where you don't have to pay for your type-rating!

Cheers!

[MIKECR]

You could always just go for the experience. I did some flying in a king air and found it thoroughly worthwhile. Im not type rated so cant log any of the hours but it certainly got me into the environment - all airways stuff, busy RT, busy airports etc. All good 'real world' stuff, a far cry from the comforts of the training courses. Try hunting around your local airfields and have a chat with some of the local owners. Some are only too glad to have someone else suitably qualified along for the ride.

[Boing7117]

MIKECR,

My thoughts exactly. Even if I can't log any hours - it's just for the experience.

"A far cry from the comforts of the training courses"

Yes.

But also a bloody big far cry from the discomforts of working to keep a living, while applying and enquiring and writing and telephoning and everything else that goes with trying to get that first job.

Sorry folks if I've upset a few of you - I honestly didn't expect, nor intend to offend.

[MIKECR]

Tell me about it. I've been at it for the last 12 months!

[JB007]

With your experience level, can I suggest:
Loganair
Eastern Airways
FlyBe
Highland Airways
Air Southwest


Forget the big shiny jet at this stage, I would say they are only open to CTC Cadets, which are Cheap as Chips for the airlines or experienced FO's (i.e. FO's moving from the above hopefully creating a seat for you!)

Keep at it - good luck

[eghi r20]

Dont forget Isles Of Scilly Skybus. The Otter is a beast. A great first job to learn your trade on;).

[Flying Farmer]

You have probable missed the boat with Air South West, 2 courses have already been run with 1 to go.

[MIKECR]

Logan, Highland and Eastern wont consider low timers just now. 1000 hours is generally the bench mark. They need people with quick command potential, not low timers who will take twice as long to be eligble. Theres always the odd exception though. Flybe however are probably the best bet, they'll consider all experience levels. The turnaround time to process applications takes months so get your application in asap.

[Flintstone]

Boing 7117.

Purely for sh!ts and giggles can I suggest you nip out for a walk. Find yourself some roadworks or a building site. Pick out the biggest, nastiest looking navvy you can see then tell the foreman you'd happily take over the navvy's job for free. Don't forget to tell the navvy too. If you're not brave enough to do that what makes you think it's a good idea to undercut your 'fellow' pilots?

When interviewing I make a point of finding out how people got their first breaks. Guess what happens to the fly for free brigade?

[Gentleman Aviator]

Perhaps I missed something here.

A chap has finished training, has low hours, and little experience of real-time Ops.

He would like to sit in an aircraft, that is single pilot, in the RHS, knowing he probably can't log hours, but wanting to gain experience of such an operation.

He is then slated by people on this forum.

May I ask what he has done wrong?

How can he be damaging other pilots' prospects by sitting in a seat that does not have, nor need, an employee.
This is like being shouted at by a Union rep for attending work experience with your dad.

Chaps, some of you need to calm down, re-read what appears to be a genuine post from a new guy in our world and give him the benefit of the doubt.

GA

[Flintstone]

Beg to differ but the last time I looked positioning an aircraft for a commercial flight counts as 'work' and therefore attracts 'pay'.

Unless someone's offering to do it for nothing :rolleyes:

[PicMas]

Lets not gang up on the poor guy here. The industry has been hurting for the past 5 years or so, this has especially been hard on the not-so-experienced pilots (which I still consider myself a part of). Then came the genious piss-in-the-pants-to-stay-warm approach of buying a rating, then everybody did it, and the market still sucked. Then everybody went and paid for linetraining, offered/ agreed to fly for no pay or peanuts. I bet the original poster has met his share of "which rating are you buying after graduating?" crap.

It has become the norm, and quite accepted by freshly graduated pilots, that you MUST buy a rating and work for free to fulfill the dream of flying. In fact it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

At least, here is an attempt to gain experience the "correct" way by building experience and climbing the career ladder the good old fashioned way - I respect that! Rather than paying one of the lo-co's to fly their same 12 boring destinations for poor pay, is here an attempt to gain actual experience.

I strongly disagree with offering your skills for free, and will recommend that you value your skills, then a potential future employer will do the same - or not employ you, thats a win-win situation.

With your experience level you should look for photoflying, paradropping or maybe going the FI route. I am aware that you probably did not start out with an ultimate goal to captain a C172, but doing that puts you in a position to make contacts and most important: MAKE DECISIONS!

This part of the industry that is corporate aviation has largely been spared for the PFT that has corrupted the airline industry, probably because many hiring commitees are "infested" with pilots and honestly, do you want a guy in the right seat that will pay to make you unemployed?!?

Go out, fly whatever you can get your hands on, but do it at marketprice you will make contacts faster than you probably imagine. The jump from a C172 to a Seneca is not so great once you have some time under your belt. Then a Navajo, then a King Air ......

[On speed on profile]

PicMas,

the genious piss-in-the-pants-to-stay-warm approach of buying a rating

That is THE best and THE funniest quote I have ever heard on this website. Not only is it so true but it so accurately sums up the whole situation.

Boeing7117, while I am completely anti buying a type rating, we all have to get experience and I commend you for having the attitude that so many little stuck up little sh$ts dont have! If you work hard and scrounge all that experience that so many of us have done before, you wil be a better pilot for it and when it really matters, you will be glad you did it the hard way, scaring yourself as you go along! Best of luck!

OSOP

[Boing7117]

Flintstone - feel free to PM me with the airline which you recruit for.

I'll ensure you don't ever receive my application.

I seriously can't understand what the harm is in asking to sit in the RHS of something just for the experience?

I'm not sure how you completed your flight training nor what your job prospects were when you finished, but for me, I've done my training, racked up a bit of a debt, and now I'm managing to get by using some skills from my uni degree to keep the cash coming in.

In the meantime, my CV / application form is out there to as many potentials as possible.

In my spare time in the evenings - my CV is going out to anyone else I can think of / find out about.

I'm not the only one doing this. There's plenty more of us. Although I seem to be the only one making a bit of a noise here.

But I miss the flying. I enjoyed it while I was training, because, funnily enough I quite like the idea of doing this for a living.

I'm not belittling myself, nor my "fellow" pilots by offering to do some flying for free. I've already got a "living" at the moment therefore I don't need to be paid (given that any airline runs a fairly tight setup I would have hoped a lack of financial outlay might have been an incentive - but some of you turn it round which is disappointing).

Thanks to the rest of you for some positive pointers on my initial posting.

[Platinum206]

Bit off topic, but curiosity is getting to me....

You say you have 150hrs, is this 150hrs P1 or what is it?

I needed to have logged 150hrs total before starting my CPL course.

Maybe your flying somewhere where the rules are vastly different, or maybe i'm missing something?

[Chippie Chappie]

Boing7117,

If you do a quick search on this website you will find out who Flinstone works for (hint: they're fairly big and operate out of Farnborough). I think it's fair to say that his opinion is well respected in the GA community.

If you glance up the page a little, you'll find that I stated how people might react to your post and suggested that you might delete it. You didn't take that advice (I'm not offended) and people made it clear they didn't like what you're doing.

Now take a step back and look at it. You've looked at persuing a course of action and asked for help. No-one had endorsed it! Quite the opposite. I'll say it again, you will win no friends yet gain many enemies if you offer to work for free. If you seriously want to get on in this business, listen. Take it as the constructive criticism you would receive after a bad flight in training.

Chips

[PicMas]

Guess what happens to the fly for free brigade?

The get seatlocked on a non-APU aircraft?

To the original poster:
If you have income to keep creditors at a safe distance, and just want to fly, why not do it in a flying club? No offense intended.

If you want to make a living from flying, then free work is a wrong path to take.
I can understand and partially agree that a RHS in a Seneca might give you some valuable "time spent in good environment". I do, however, feel that if you occupy that seat, you should be a ressource to the pilot flying - and paid as such. So get up that experience and find an outfit that will pay marketrate for your service.

I'll ensure you don't ever receive my application.

Umm... ok, because you reserve the right to work for free, and any company forcing pay upon the employees doesn't deserve your labor?!? :ugh::hmm:

Come on, you write here for advise, take it at face value.

[Phil Brockwell]

I think this is a little unfair. It's not as if he has offered his services as an online Pilot for free, simply some aircraft positioning and deadleg flying as a way to build hours and get a foot in the door. This has been the way of things for 20+ years.

Phil

[Flintstone]

Boing, as PicMas says the actions of those undercutting others is an emotive subject with some people, particularly those who paid their own way. Sorry to disappoint but I'm self funded and therefore immune to the slings and arrows of having had a cushy airline cadetship or military training.

I'm sorry you have to work at something else to tide you over until your first flying job. It was a bitch when I had to do it too. Loans, they're a bugger eh? Thing was I knew what I was getting into so got myself out of it, eventually. Sure, I could have flown for free but I wanted to look my colleagues-to-be in the eye afterward. So I didn't.

I'm not speaking for my employers, they'll do what they want but then it has been known for me to 'know of jobs going' in the past so who can say where I'll pop up? Man of mystery I am ;)

the genious piss-in-the-pants-to-stay-warm approach of buying a rating Bloody funny :O

[Boing7117]

Point taken folks. Didn't make too many friends with this posting, and managed to stir up a bit of commotion along the way.

Most of you highlighted this early doors - but I thought it was worth keeping it open a little longer.

Even though the damage is done.....

I could always backtrack my initial post. Change the word "free" to "current market rate"

:)

Flintstone - given that we've made such a lasting friendship, I'm sure you'll let me know when one of them jobs pops up....

:O

[rotorknight]

At least you have a sense of humor:D,
And as so many people before you,just hang in there,get your time somewhere and it will probably work out in the not so distant future.
And yes,I did it the hard way as well:}

[Flintstone]

Boing.

Funnily enough I would. If it were a paying job that avoided you having to sell your soul ;) As I said, we've all been there.

Not much use to you right now but when you hit 1000 hours give me a shout.