JAA licence

[Crash Barrier]

Just curious to know what all you FAA pilots
think of the JAA Commercial Licence.
There is an unfair amount of FAA bashing on this forum by the Brits in my opinion, they seem to think that the FAA system is easier and not worth the paper it is written on.
What do you think??

[JJflyer]

Oh well...

Have a FAA ATP, but no JAA licence yet. This is due to change though.

Difference is in the systems not in the licenceing itself. Where US system is based in gaining experience and moving up the ladder from smaller airplanes to the big commercial jets. Thus initial training does not need to be very deep and thorough. As for EU, in most countries training has prepared a pilot for a direct entry position in a large jet. Does this preparation make a pilot ready for the challenge ? sometimes yes and sometimes NO.

So both systems have their goods and bads. My personal frustration is the lack of information on the matter of obtaining a JAA licence and still getting credit for previous experience.

JJ

[GoneWest]

I have both FAA and JAA professional licences and instrument ratings.

FAA is easier, by far. I didn't say it is any less professional - I said it was easier.

[Roadtrip]

It's a moot point. Pay, benefits, and labor representation would have to improve considerably before I would ever consider working as a pilot outside the US (even if there were no alien work restrictions). There is little pent-up movement of US pilots to overseas jobs, but there would be a FLOOD of Europeans, Canadians, and Aussies to the US if work permits unrestricted here.

[JJflyer]

Yip that is correct, to a point. Now that there are many airline jobs available in US why go outside and take the risk of entering something unknown.

Still a lot of the VIP pilts I have met flying big jets in Middle-East are from US.
For me... Well if I had a greencard I would not have anything against working in US as long as I could come home to EU as often as possible. So I would rather work here or somwhere else.

JJ

[Mapshift]

as mentioned above the people most like to make negative remarks about FAA licences most likely possess two basic qualifications..

1) Lack of understanding of the total FAA system

2) The desire to work in the USA under the privileges of an(inferior) FAA ATP should the INS allow it...keep in mind....

most US major airlines successfully complete more SECTORS in one year accident-free(with inferior licenses/training) than overseas competitors complete in a decade, in a large variety of weather conditions, congested airports...etc...etc...so you figure it out...

[JJflyer]

It is not a question which is better JAA or FAA. They just have a different filosofies thats all. I have flown many years with FAA licence and have not had problems flying outside US. Europe being no exception to this rule.

The total lack of understandin from JAA towards people that have an FAA licence is evident and approaching discrimination.
I would uderstand this position if EU was actively supporting General Aviation as a viable source of future airline pilots. But unfortunately this is not the case.

More often than not GA in Europe is hit with ever more increasing fule prices, noise complaints and taxes.
More GA airports are being in the process of being closed without a thought given as to where to locate schools airplanes and small companies after closure.

Thats what pisses me off. I didn´t have a viable option when I decided to go for pilot training. I could not afford it in Europe but in US I could. Still If I had to do it allover again I would invest into a EU school.
See if you add the cost of a JAA licence on what you spend in US for living and schooling it comes to about the same. This ofcourse depends on the school you go to.

JJ

[cavu]

Am a British JAA/FAA flight instructor and would consider myself to be unbiased in the matter. I think the JAA theory is clearly superior, but the JAA flying, especially stick and rudder, is lacking.

You don't get many "proffesionally" trained pilots from the US in Europe. Generally, people that have fallen for some PPL-ATPL, $20000 in six months, nonesense in the adds of Pilot or Flyer go back to Blighty and make an arse out of themselves, understandably devaluing the FAA license

The practical flying and theory I see from the guys that have trained at an airline like Comair or with someone like Flight Safety seems considerably better than what I get from the UK.

However, I would say that when the FAA suck they really suck, but that is an issue of maintaining the training and practical test standards for license issuence in a vast country with a huge aviation industry.



[This message has been edited by cavu (edited 09 June 2001).]

[cavu]

One more thought. I once flew back home on a BA flight and the Captain very kindly invited me into the cockpit for the approach and landing. Buckled up at FL360 and asked the engineer when he wanted me to keep my mouth shut for the sterile cockpit.

"Sterile Cockpit. . . Sterile Cockpit. . . uh, that is not a term we use in British aviation" he scoffed.

They then flew the rest of the approach profile blabbing about this, that and the other until they touched down. After October's documentry would'nt be surprised if they were hammered too!

Guys as they say in FAA land: if you're gonna talk the talk you gotta walk the walk.

Think I'll be flying Delta next time!

[Trident Sim]

cavu

You were fortunate enough to be allowed to sit on the flight deck of a BA aircraft for landing. You repaid that favour by making snide remarks about the crew, including the highly derogatory suggestion that they may have been hammered whilst on duty.

If you genuinely believed that, then you should have reported them, immediately on arrival in the UK, to BA, the CAA or the Police, for them to investigate.

It appears you didn’t, and instead chose to make your remarks anonymously, presumably to avoid having to substantiate them, and to minimise the risk of being sued for defamation by the crew concerned.

Fly Delta by all means, but I doubt if any of the Delta pilots I've met over the years will think any more highly of your behaviour than I do.

[cavu]

Trident Sim

I was not seriously suggesting that the flight crew were inebriated. The point I was trying make is that British flight crew often take a patronizing stance in addressing, not only the topic of discussion, but FAA/JAA matters in general.

The flight engineer's lofty tone mocked the idea of a "sterile cockpit"; hardly indicative of a safety conscious attitude, and his general manner suggested contempt for US flying as a whole.

You can rest completely assured that had I suspected any of the crew to be in such a state, I would not have hesitated to report them. Clearly, this was not an attitude shared by the BA cabin crew on the flights filmed during the making of last year's documentary.

With regards to your comment on the perception of my views by Delta pilots, my experience is that many pilots certified in US, American and foreigners, are just a little tired of the patronizing nonsense that confronts them in web postings, magazines and crew chatter. In this matter I am quite confident on which side of the debate US pilots would fall.

You have my sincerest apologies for any unintentional offense, but I stand by suggestion that this debate is often one of the pot calling the kettle black.

[Grandad Flyer]

The thing I find most interesting is the way that the CAA/Brits slagged off the American system of licencing for years. Then along came JAA. All of a sudden the JAA PPL looks, er, identical to the FAA syllabus. Ditto with the CPL. The IR is similar.
I hold FAA and CAA ATP licences. I have flown loads in both countries. I would say the FAA testing is far more practical and I think that having a thorough test of your knowledge of the aircraft you are taking the test in is a very good thing.
Never known an aircraft inside out as well as when doing FAA tests.
But yes, the CAA/JAA theory is obviously far more than the FAA. But then how much do we really use? From my ATPLs and Techs I can say virtually none. Air Law was of some use. Met practical, moving fronts on a piece of paper, well yeah, like I do that all the time...NOT!
So I reckon both systems produce a qualified pilot. There are people going through Oxford who shouldn't be there as they will never make the grade and become commercial pilots. Same goes for some students in the US.
The flying is not that different, you fly the aircraft, you talk to someone on the radio, you fly down an ILS. It rains and is cloudy in American too.

[Trident Sim]

cavu

I made no comment on your views - you’re entitled to them - nor on whether Delta pilots would agree with them. I did however comment on your behaviour.

I've sat on the flight deck jump seat of a few US aircraft, and have had more than a few US pilots sit on mine. Neither I, nor they, have ever felt the need to say anything afterwards, other than "Thanks Captain, let me know when I can return the favour".

If you think it appropriate behaviour to accept a jump seat, and then afterwards make anonymous and derogatory comments about the flight crew, in a public forum, then you differ from every jump seat pilot I've had the pleasure of carrying. If you think you've impressed any US pilots by doing so, you are mistaken!

Your apology for any unintentional offence is welcome, but if you're not serious in your suggestion that the crew were inebriated, far better not to have made it in the first place.

[JJflyer]

Why don´t fellow you stay with the subject instead of arguing about an aircrew that was screwed up. Or is that too hard ;)

JJ

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 10 June 2001).]

[cavu]

Tri-Star Sim

If you invite an individual onto your flight deck, good behavior means being polite to your guest and not mocking their flying practices. Professional behavior requires the crew to focus on the task at hand and not to indulge in chatter extraneous to the safety of the flight in one of the world’s busiest terminal areas.

Of course, being as concerned with behavior as you are, I am sure that you would not be so rude to your guests and that instead, you would choose to concentrate on the task of maneuvering your aircraft safely rather than discussing tomorrow’s tennis game.

Reserve your lecture on behavior for the flight crew in question

[Trident Sim]

cavu

Assuming you were replying to me - (I’m Trident Sim, not Tri-Star Sim, the difference shouldn’t be too difficult for a JAA/FAA flight instructor) - my comments about flight deck behaviour were specifically intended for patronising visitors like you, who are obviously most in need of them.

The words “pot” and “kettle” come to mind. You talk about the professional behaviour you expect from others, but exhibit none yourself in a snide and defamatory little post, toward those who did you a favour and invited you up for landing. Professional to imply a crew was drunk on duty? I think not.

I will accept that the crew made one mistake that day – inviting you to the flight deck!

JJflyer

Your edited second post makes little more sense than your first unedited one, please spare us a third attempt, there’s a good chap!

[JJflyer]

Hey Tristar Sim...

Hope I never have share a cockpit with a person like you.
Judging form your posts, you got a personality of a flounder and seem just the type that would willingly report fellow aviators to what organiastion would be willing to listen, anonymously ofcourse.

English is not my first language and when you speak my language as well as I speak yours, then, and only then can you come and patronise me.
To add to this I am not your good chap. So spare me the BS, get off your high horse and smell what you are showeling.

I have run in to people like you before that mock me for my grammar.
Anything and anybody that does not agree with your views is automatically an idiot, right ? A MCC / CRM living nightmare.

You call yourself professional. I would have another name for yourkind.

JJ

Oh I did have to clean this post up a little as it was getting too nasty.


[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 14 June 2001).]

[Trident Sim]

JJFlyer

Tut, tut, such language!

I didn't mock your grammar, I said your post didn't make sense - by which I meant I didn't understand it - if you thought I meant something else, let me assure you it wasn't intended that way.

However, as you responded so vehemently and childishly, with several pathetic insults about CRM, personality and professionalism, I can't help but wonder if perhaps your abilities in these areas have recently come in for unwelcome criticism.

I leave reporting on pilots anonymously to cavu, which is rather what my post was about, in case you misunderstood it.

As for sharing a cockpit with me - that did make me laugh - I doubt you need worry. :)

[robione]

Get a life will you.Fly Delta and keep everyone happy.