Rumour: ANZ crew refuses to fly through TIBA

[Roger Standby]

A rumour has been cast that an ANZ flight, having not been notified of TIBA procedures in OZ oceanic airspace prior to departure, elected to turn the flight around and return rather than fly through the non-airspace.

Anyone able to shed some light or shoot this one down?:hmm:

[belowMDA]

Domestically we operate outside controlled airspace occasionally so it is not that unusual. If it was a widebody then maybe it was too scary for them :}
The beauty of rumours is that they don't have to have any fact attached so they can make for great stories. :E

[No Further Requirements]

belowMDA - a TIBA isn't uncontrolled airspace - it is NOTHING. No ATC, no Traffic Information, and no SAR. That's why people don't want to fly through them. There are no ATC services provided.

Cheers,

NFR.

[On Guard]

Isn't that effectively the same thing?

[No Further Requirements]

No, in Class G you still have SAR, traffic info, and someone actually monitoring the progress of your flight. TIBA has none of these. You are on your own. If you scream, no one can hear you.......I wonder if the punters down the back know that?

Cheers,

NFR.

[27/09]

Class G you still have SAR, traffic info, and someone actually monitoring the progress of your flight

I don't think so. Yes, there might be someone you can talk to who can tell you about any known traffic but there is no one monitoring the progress of your flight. Once you're clear of controlled airspace you're on your own. You work out separation by soley by talking with other traffic, which is what would happen in TIBA.

[No Further Requirements]

That may be so in NZ, but in Australia, if you are IFR, you still get monitored where there is radar coverage, and directed traffic information on other IFR and known VFR aircraft.

Cheers,

NFR.

[aulglarse]

A few weeks ago I have heard an NZ B767 diverting around the Melbourne region to remain in CTA on a PER-AKL flight. The crew had been ACARS'd with an updated Notam regarding TIBA being introduced in certain airspace where the B767 just happened to be tracking to.

belowMda, is this a company requirement that international ops cannot operate through TIBA airspace?

[ampan]

Those old DC8 dogs out there will be getting the giggles over this one.

[excellr8]

Either way if it's true TIBA was enforced over AUS domestic airspace it is disgracefull. Hello Airservices hope you give refunds for enroute charges.......ye right!

[NZScion]

I don't think so. Yes, there might be someone you can talk to who can tell you about any known traffic but there is no one monitoring the progress of your flight. Once you're clear of controlled airspace you're on your own. You work out separation by soley by talking with other traffic, which is what would happen in TIBA.

What a load of bollocks. In NZ, even in Class G airspace, aircraft are handled similar to the procedures that "No Further Requirements" posted. Under IFR when in radar coverage you are monitored by control, and outside radar coverage you are required to report at all compulsory rep. points to CH Info or the applicable ATS unit as per the FISCOM chart in the AIPNZ. I have before forgotten a reporting point when operating out of radar coverage and I had CH Info calling me within mins of my ETA at the point.


Glass G = Information/SAR service provided
TIBA = For when the s hit hits the fan.... (Severed comms link/ATC centre evacuated/lack of staff at ASA)

[SM4 Pirate]

Traffic information is provided before the onset of TIBA procedures/entry into TIBA region.Please Explain?

Who holds SAR exiting a TIBA?

How do they know they plane is coming; thus know when and where to go looking?

[ACMS]

How's about calling your company ops on SAT phone or even HF and giving them your position reports. Wouldn't that be good enough for SAR purposes?

And calling the next FIR and advising them of your ETA at their boundary?

That would be a good idea as well.

I'm not sure I'd be worried about SAR coverage.

[peuce]

Well, if TIBA doesn't seem to be such a big deal .... lets start by making all Oceanic Airspace Class G ... that's gotta save some FTEs :E

[Howard Hughes]

I know there are quite a few aircraft going back and forth across the Tasman at any one time, but 99% of them are being driven by experienced, competent professionals. So with TCAS fitted and operating why would it not be safe to fly quadrantally, using the correct TIBA procedures across the Tasman? I mean you could even offset your track by 5 miles to the right if you wanted to add another layer of safety!

Seems like overkill to me, unless it's company mandated!:ok:

[Showa Cho]

The point is not whether a crew can call their company, or the next FIR. The point is that AsA are not providing an ATC service. And it is happening far too often. I have seen aircraft add many, many mile to their journey to avoid TIBA areas - QF will not fly through them, where as Jetstar will. I suppose it is up to each company's risk management people to determine the response.

In the case of Ocean Sector being TIBA, I am unaware of any way that the outgoing NZ sector could provide any traffic information - there's no one on the other end of the line. They can't see into the airspace - no radar coverage. The sector to the West of Ocean would perhaps know they are coming, but would have no firm estimate apart from the AFTN generated departure message. And when the aircraft is in the TIBA, they would have to rely on the rest of the traffic doing the right thing with their broadcasts. Including foreign crew who would most likely not have a clue about operating in a TIBA and would have to brief themselves on the run, if that information was available!

If I were Joe public, I would not wish tor travel though such airspace. However, I don't think Mr and Mrs Public even know that they are in a TIBA. If they did, I think I know what the reaction would mostly be.....:eek:

Thanks,

Showa

[Blip]

There is not going to be any aircraft up there in the declared TIBA airspace that has not submitted a flight plan so that is one way ATC at either end can look ahead and see what is out there for passing on traffic information purposes if required.

And as stated earlier why not offset some distance and perhaps fly 100 ft below or above the standard level e.g. FL349.

It is not true to say that Qantas do not fly through TIBA airspace. There was TIBA airspace outside Perth some weeks ago and flights continued through it without incident.

By the way I think it is disgraceful that it has come to this.

[SM4 Pirate]

There is not going to be any aircraft up there in the declared TIBA airspace that has not submitted a flight plan so that is one way ATC at either end can look ahead and see what is out there for passing on traffic information purposes if required. Nope, they can give you nothing more than an appreciation of what is already on their screens. This is particularly dangerous near the FIR boundary, between BN and ML centres, as the information displayed on the other side of the boundary is at best inaccurate; at worse non existent.

Getting a Snapshot from Melbourne Sectors or SY TCU about what's over the OCN is totally a no no, and as an ATC I can state we have not had any training in what is or isn't appropriate to say. I wouldn't be giving you any advice about what's over the water, cause I don't know, and probably anything I did say could give you a false sense of security.

As for offsets etc; everything is fine until the conflict is also offsetting the same altitude difference or the other side of track; and then it offsets only solve opposite traffic really. With crossing tracks offsets count for zip.

[Blip]

OK Thanks for the info SM4 Pirate.

When it comes to offsets, yes they are only a defense against opposite direction traffic. Basic rules of the air (CAR's) say to veer to the right when passing opposite direction traffic so there shouldn't be a conflict there between left and right offsets. To mitigate this risk that someone does choose to offset to the left, I would be offsetting by some random amount say 1.7 nm or whatever.

Here is some of the relevant CAR...

162 Rules for prevention of collision
(1) When 2 aircraft are on converging headings at approximately the same
height, the aircraft that has the other on its right shall give way, except
that:
(a) power-driven heavier-than-air aircraft shall give way to airships,
gliders and balloons;
(b) airships shall give way to gliders and balloons;
(c) gliders shall give way to balloons; and
(d) power-driven aircraft shall give way to aircraft that are seen to be
towing other aircraft or objects.
(2) When two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so and
there is danger of collision, each shall alter its heading to the right.

I suppose all you can do is try your best to reduce the chances of conflict. You can never eliminate them.

[flyitboy]

What a bunch of girls !:} What diff does it make? You have the same humans in airspace that's uncontrolled day in day out as in CTA. What makes thier lives any less than the high rollers? ZERO ! Big joke it is, with all the modern alerting stuff in planes these days I hardly think that a TIBA CRZ sector is any less dangerous than flying at night below LSALT when allowed to, like I said bunch of girls. We Ozzies do it all the time thes e days!
We have all been spoilt, welcome to the new world where the 'security' pillow isn't always at hand to suck !:E
F

[an3_bolt]

I know there are quite a few aircraft going back and forth across the Tasman at any one time, but 99% of them are being driven by experienced, competent professionals. So with TCAS fitted and operating why would it not be safe to fly quadrantally, using the correct TIBA procedures across the Tasman? I mean you could even offset your track by 5 miles to the right if you wanted to add another layer of safety!

Seems like overkill to me, unless it's company mandated!

So - just a couple of questions:

1. Does that mean you are relying on a serviceable TCAS for traffic separation and collision avoidance?
2. Have you ever attempted see and avoid at a closing speed of 1000 kts?
3. How do you know that you might be doing the right thing - but is EVERYONE else doing the right thing from asian carriers, middle east carriers to biz jets that fly the pond?
4. Does offsetting necessarily remove the conflict of crossing traffic?
5. What about in emergency situations where aircraft are unable to maintain correct altitude / tracking?
6. What about if an aircraft is non-rvsm / rvsm failure and in TIBA?
7. Are you going to apply RVSM separation in TIBA?
8. What separation standards are you going to apply - and what are you going to do when some turkey is going to fly through you level in close proximity and do it regardless of your protest?
9. Why do you have to accept TIBA procedures when it is a result of lack of staff? Is it acceptable to to do TIBA in this day and age when it is not necessary especially when it is due to the systemic management failures of air traffic services?
10. If 99% know what they are doing - what about the 1% who are trying to kill you?
11. By the way - how many aircraft fly across the pond each day and on how many tracks do they do this?

[Track Coastal]

flyitboy you never cease to amaze me.

Shut your mouth and be thought a fool but open it and remove and all doubt seems very apt for you.:rolleyes:

I sincerely hope that as I walk the aerobridge to catch the next one to where ever, you are not at the pointy end.

[Capt Fathom]

flyitboy:Big joke it is, with all the modern alerting stuff in planes these days I hardly think that a TIBA CRZ sector is any less dangerous than flying at night below LSALT when allowed to, like I said bunch of girls

And the possibility of someone like you being there is good enough reason to avoid it whenever possible.


flyitboy:We Ozzies do it all the time these days!

Do not use the word We!

[pakeha-boy]

Flown through many TIBA,....But it was part of our SOP....company approved,and always part of the flight plan

The comment about the DC-8 boys getiing a kick out of this brings back memories,because for many years....TIBA was all you had

BelowMDA......your comment about domestic is taken...but what is ANZ.,s policy on international TIBA????.....is it approved,??

for a crew to refuse to fly through a TIBA,would/might/is be based upon circumstances contradicting the SOP,S....because ultimately the crew will be asked to explain their actions..

.......of course this could also be a bu@#sh@t rumour,which I reckon it is

[Roger Standby]

Can anyone answer the question about RVSM levels in TIBA?:uhoh:

[Maggott17]

"2. Have you ever attempted see and avoid at a closing speed of 1000 kts?"

Nope, always see and ENGAGE at whatever closure puts you in the correct aspect for your weapon load.12 o'clock with the right rocket is not insurmountable, but challenging.

Kiwi A4's never carried the right rocket, and were always easy meat when you saw them coming.

[Maggott17]

RVSM goes out the window when all the holes in the cheese don't line up.

747s at one hundred paces is too scarey to allow pilots to handle.

[Howard Hughes]

At five NM, I believe you are considered off the airway, well and truly.
What is the navigation error after a pacific crossing?:rolleyes:

The whole premise is to advise those around you using TIBA procedures that you are 'off the airway', I m not advocating offsetting then reporting on the airway.

As I said, international SLOP does not cater for anything like five NM offsets.Not even for weather avoidance?:eek:

If the company SOP's prohibit flight through TIBA then the correct action is to not fly through TIBA, however if you are permitted, there are a number of options available to complete the flight safely! This is evidenced by the number of aircraft in Australia that are now doing this routinely on a daily basis, of course this is not ideal, but that is a whole other thread going on elsewhere in D&G!:ok:

[flyitboy]

'Cpt Fathom' & 'track coastal' (although TC is on my ignore list so can only imagine his ugly response) I guess you guys don't live in the real world. TIBA IS happening & will continue to do so accept or get out of the skies!
Whether I'm at the pointy end making decisions whilst you guys might be onboard makes no diff to me but I get great delight in knowing that yr afraid you might be.

Like I said, bunch of girls!:E


f

[cjam]

Is the TIBA airspace semi permanent or is it just Notam'd day by day as needed?
What airspace are they doing it in?

[virgindriver]

Is the TIBA airspace semi permanent or is it just Notam'd day by day as needed? What airspace are they doing it in?

Notam'd when needed- result of staff shortages. I saw it happen just last Sunday afternoon going into Melbourne. Aircraft departing/arriving into Melbourne and even going Sydney Perth were some of the routes affected.

Pretty 3rd world I think...

I wonder if the airlines get a discount on Nav charges for lack of service. Gotta love the management at AirServices.

[Capt Wally]

We are all very fortunate indeed in this country, TIBA would be the least of our worries compared to the worlds major hassles in aviation of which we expereince little here. It is a disgrace that we have to have TIBA in this country 'cause our skies are virtually empty here compared to the rest of the world.

'Flyitboy' you obviously have a bee in yr bonnet about this subject
although yr statement: "What diff does it make? You have the same humans in airspace that's uncontrolled day in day out as in CTA." does have some obvious meaning but some in here will not see that, that's the part where you seem to thrive on! Still this is a public forum where we all have different opinions.
Keep the good work up ATC, where with you 100 % despite yr obvious hassles with management.



CW

[Howard Hughes]

I operate a system with GPS and three IRUs so the error is quite small - maybe 0.03N. Maybe less. Then no one can easily work out where you are. Mr Eclan, you seem to contradict yourself, surely if your navigation equipment is accurate to 0.3NM, then everybody will know exactly where you are to within 0.3NM!

Why would 'the feds' frown upon the concept?

As I eluded to earlier,without actually saying it, it is normal to go a lot further off track for weather avoidance! The three tools ATCers use to separate aircraft are altitude, distance and closing angle, surely pilots should use the same tools when required?

[elaine12345678]

The beauty of rumours is that they don't have to have any fact attached so they can make for great stories. I like your words. Rumors are rumors. Forget about it. :D:D:D