Re-start training at another FTO?

[BigEddie]

Hello,

I need some advice. Last year I was training with a well known FTO, however 30+hours in to my training the FTO weren't happy to continue with my training as they said they didn't think I had the skills & apptitude to go all the way to a RHS. In my opinion I felt this was just an excuse to get rid of me as I had made my feelings clear that I wasn't making much progress, 6months of training with only 30hours flying and 8 different instructors, (some instructors with low hours and giving me conflicting information). Other guys on my course group were already taking their PPL. This was meant to be a full time course? When I orignally went for selection I passed the aptitude tests with high scores and I reached solo standard within 14hours.

My questions are these: Firstly am I capable of knowing if I can make it all the way to FO from my limited flying and secondly how do I explain what happened at my previous FTO and why am I still not there now to a new integrated FTO? In my opinion I am not happy to give up flying until I know either way, and I am considering obtaining my PPL to satisfy my curiosity. My concern is that I am putting money and time in to geting my PPL when I should/could be using it to go towards an integrated FTO?

Any answers will be appreciated and if you have any questions please ask.

Thanks in advance.

[eoincarey]

hey man.

First thing, and I know you probably don't want to hear this, but you really need to listen to waht they are saying. Whether their points about your suitability are valid or not, you owe it to yourself (and to your bank manager) to really investigate whether or not you're cut out for commericial flying. I would highly reccommend taking GAPAN's aptitude tests at Cranwell. Costs about £170 but is a worthwhile investment. Would also give you the chance to chat to some highly experienced pilots, which will give you an even better idea about your suitability.

Next thing to look at is the FTO in question. I assume from the rather limited info you gave us that you're doing a modular course? How well did you do you homework about it? What's their success rate like for exams, IR etc? What's their normal dropout rate? It may be that many people experience similar complaints and move on; or it may be that most people are reasonably satisfied, stay, and complete the course. In this case, these students are most likely experiencing the same conditions as you (in terms of instructor turnover etc). Maybe you need to ask yourself why they might be succeeding where you are not. You may not like what this school has to say, but we all know its a dog eat dog world in commerical flying training. I find it highly doubtful that they would wish to turn you (and your money) away without a well conceived reason; i.e. that you may not have the aptitude, or that you may not suit their school.

Eoin

[BigEddie]

Eoin,

Just to reply to a couple of points in the above reply. The school wasn't modular as such, and you aren't the customer. I don't want to name the school for obvious reasons but the company makes money once they place you in a job so if you are going to take longer than expected in training you will be costing them money! Its business!

You are correct in saying I might not like to hear that I haven't got the ability but IMOH I wasn't given the chance to practice what I was being taught. Dual-solo flights are usually to be done after each other, in my case it was sometimes a week! Some other trainees did run into problems but perhaps as they didn't make as much fuss as myself and they were given more chances.

Ed

[Hufty]

Naah, if it's your money then you ARE the customer so it isn't up to you to explain anything to your new FTO - it is up to them to win your business so they should be bending over backwards to impress you not the other way around!

Maybe you need a different style of instruction? Maybe a smaller school with more personalised tuition and fewer (more experienced) instructors might be they way forward for you. Everybody learns at a different pace and 8 instructors in 30 hours seems like an awful lot. Why go integrated anyway? There are lots of other options. That would let you get your PPL then you could go off on a modular course and save yourself some money.

I don't know if you're cut out for flying, but maybe you should just go find a good instructor with lots of hours under his or her belt and do some flying with them? Maybe do some general stuff, some circuits and maybe some time under the hood. They should be able to give you a reliable second opinion.

There are loads of FIs on this site so they will hopefully be able to help you more than I can.

Good luck and get flying!!

[HappyFran]

Hi Big Eddie,

You are obviously in a differcult dilema,
The previous post suggesting the GAPAN test is a very good idea

Notice you are in Portsmouth, I'm training over at BCFT in Bournemouth, whilst I would highly recommend them as a full modular training provider,
I would however, givern your current situation, suggest that you may want to do a trial flight with one of the instructors over at Old Sarum, (Salisbury), David Scoles is the top man and is very very good. I have been up with a few of the other instructors and they are very experienced, and I believe will give you very honest feedback on you flying skills / aptitude. I have never found that they would flatter anyone just to grab your money.
Recommend you be very honest with them as to your situation, they will listern with compassion, but give you a very dispassion assessment back.

If they think you are up to the challenges, and you like them, you could do a lot worse for a PPL training FTO
and there relatively cheap :}

good luck

Fran

[The Ginger Prince]

BigEddie - I agree with Fran get checked out at a local flying club, if that goes well then get the PPL.
You can always go integrated after that if you so wish - but I reckon the modular route is more flexible and equates to better value for money. You'll be in the driving seat and that helps.

Good Luck.

[PAJ]

Just because the training organisation in question says they don't think you have what it takes does not mean you can't be a pilot. I know the company you are referring to very well (I am just doing my IR at the moment) and as much as I don't have any issues at all personally with the training I have been given, I know some people who like yourself, have not gone through at the same pace as others for a number of reasons, largely down to having instructors who aren't proactive enough and really really bad luck with weather! As you say, the nature of the scheme is such that they need the trainee to be complete to the standard in a certain time period, and given how tough the selection is and how much further than the bear licence issue minimum standards the training takes you, perhaps means that this is not a conventional method of becoming an airline pilot, but rather a more intensive programme. They require the finished product to reach a minimum standard if the relevant airlines who take us on are going to stick around. And Hufty, you definitely are not the customer here! The contract basically says so, but they quite clearly tell you this throughout selection before you sign on the dotted line.

Perhaps Integrated is not the way forward - think as others have said about modular (try to do one-stop modular though). Having the drive to get there is one of the biggest hurdles. If you can get onto a scheme like this in the first place, you are clearly qalified and have the right personality. You just need the right instruction to get you there, so shop around.

[Hufty]

I don't know who the FTO is that is being discussed here is but I am still amazed that you get assessed to see if you're worthy enough to give an organisation £80k, then when they decide you are, you give them it and you're not the customer! THEN they tell you you're not good enough! I mean, let's really just stop and think about that for a minute......where else in any other industry would that happen? I'm not getting at anybody who has posted here (all very good advice) ....maybe me just getting a little too much like Victor Meldrew in my old age!!

PAJ is spot on though - it sounds like a compatibility issue - tell them to poke it, take your money and go somewhere else..

It is YOUR money, YOUR career, YOUR training. They need to do what YOU want and YOU are doing them a favour by giving them YOUR money. They are in it for the profit and don't give a fig about YOU so don't be afraid to be a little more assertive with these characters. Some people view these FTOs as "gatekeepers" to an airline career.....no. They are just third parties sitting between you (the pilot) and the employer (the airline). I'm not saying that you shouldn't play the game, just make sure you realise that it is all about YOU!!

Anyway, I'll get me coat. Rant off! :)

[SkyCamMK]

If an FTO gets a student that requires extra time they will sideline him/her and hope they get the message. If you as an FTO prefer to train only the brighest and quickest learners that has not much to do with whether or not you could make it to RHS. If you can get to Cranfield I could fly you and convince you in one hour that you can fly well enough. If you put in the requisite amount of effort you would get a licence at least at PPL. The advice about GAPAN is good but anyone who can drive can fly IMHO. Your learning style should match the teaching style for max progress. Some instructors cannot vary their teaching style. Do not give up. Do not give away any more cash until you have flown at a club with a CFI or similar. Good luck PM if you wish. I was chopped on jets in the RAF in 70's and rightly so at the time but I still knew I had the "potential" having passed the tests and being commissioned. Life is odd at times. I was in my 40's before I got round to the JAA ATPL's. Time is on your side. You should write and ask for copies of your instructor comments and for a full explanation. Another school would get your records if you move. There is hope....CU

[eoincarey]

Regarding the comment that if you can drive you can fly.

Absolutely don't agree. Flying, as we should know, is a much more complex affair. To do it well, it involves a good degree of technical comprehension, as well as an awareness and use of a variety of different disciplines; radio, navigation, meteorology, a/c tech etc. Lets face it, how many drivers could really tell you how their engine is transmitting power to the wheels? Or explain how their power steering works? Aviation examines pilots' ability to fully comprehend their skill; driving, whilst not denying that it involves a certain degree of practical skill, demands nothing like what flying asks of its pilots in terms of spatial awareness and general nous.

Granted, there are people out there, who as have been mentioned require a lot of extra work to get them to the standard, and just attain the PPL. This, it must be rememberd, is a minimum standard, and does not make them particularly proficient pilots. I'm sure we've all flown with guys (and girls) whose level of skill, awareness and confidence in the sky leaves much to be desired. IMHO this is the reason why so many PPL's lapse so soon; its not because of money, time, or inexperience. Its because they admit to themselves that that they have peaked in their level of proficiency.

Getting back to the FTO question. I stand by what I said. You may be aviation's equivalent of Frank Spencer, or you may just be the next 'Maverick'. EIther way, you owe it to yourself to investigate your abilities a little further before you reject out of hand their advice and plough on.

Eoin

[clear prop!!!]

Wise words indeed.

The truth sometimes hurts and it's the good schools/instructors that give it.

There's a lot of hard earned cash at stake. Go do an aptitude test as suggested and hopefully, you have been given duff advice.

Good luck

[akindofmagic]

I would suggest that as the original poster passed the entry tests to get onto the course in the first place, there is little to be gained by doing further tests; be they GAPAN or any other. The initial (I'm assuming Pilapt) tests obviously indicated suitability for training, and a low training risk, or he would not have been offered a place on the course, so I would further suggest that aptitude itself is not the problem.
To echo other posters, the best course of action may well be to find an instructor that you like and get on with, and do some flying.
Good luck!

[SkyCamMK]

To clarify, I am sure that anyone can learn to fly just like given the right education and coaching one could learn anything if so motivated. How well and whether or not they might achieve any particular licence depends on many inter-related and diverse factors. I have witnessed several so called rejects being coached and who blossomed in a different environment under a very senior instructor who had a particular aptitude for passing on knowledge and skills. Whilst I have some sympathy for the criticism of my last post I thinkl if it is read carefully I am not suggesting absolutely anyone could become an airline pilot easily let alone a 747 or A320 Captain!

[speedrestriction]

Firstly am I capable of knowing if I can make it all the way to FO from my limited flying No, there is no way to tell. Did you get feedback from your instructors as to where you needed to improve?

how do I explain what happened To whom do you expect to explain. Other schools in all likelyhood won't care. Provided you get decent CPL and IR passes it shouldn't feature as an issue at interview. However, should a lack of progress become a problem with your next school then you may need to reconsider where you are going with this as a career.


At the end of the day, to get a job on something big and shiny with low hours you will probably have someone somewhere looking through your training record. To type rate and line train somebody takes a lot of time, effort and money. Airlines, quite understandably want minimum risk with cadets.

sr