BA Sponsorship Rumour?

[ElSupremo]

Hey, I've had a search on these forums but found nothing so I posted this here (mods feel free to move if I've missed something!) :)

I've read/heard recently of rumours that BA may/will be once again offering sponsorship sometime. Are these rumours reliable? Is the re-opening up of its sponsorship scheme realistic/likely? Finally, when is this rumoured to be happening?

Cheers :)

[nick14]

Interesting, with the opening of the NetJets sponsorship, and the substancial finacial contribution of the Flybe sponsorship with OAA, BA will now be losing maybe 10% of the Top candidates to these 2 airlines as they get selected pre training.

They will be forced to offer something in order to maintain the intake of high quality SSP's unless they can maintain that with the current guys going through the training, at OAA and the other ways.

Nick

[TopBunk]

So long as BA can recruit the required numbers from the qualified pilot pool, why would they start a sponsorship scheme?

Sorry to disappoint you all, but I doubt if it will happen anytime soon.

[The African Dude]

Just to add to what TopBunk has said, BA have also taken pilots from CTC when required.. if there are enough pre-selected cadets of the right standard then I can't see them setting up their own scheme either.

[RogerUK]

Hi Nick,

Is there any link/website to the Netjet sponsorship info? I've tried googling it, no success :bored:

Thanks,

Roger

[pt_flyer]

Roger here it is:

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/netjets/nj_main.htm

:ok:

[Artie Fufkin]

Admittedly this is somewhat out of date but I remember when I was passing through Oxford (about 3 or 4 years ago now!), BA turned up for a presentation and were asked about sponsorship schemes.

They said it was highly unlikely it would ever be brought back as it wasn't about getting "the best of the crop" but more about delivering a steady supply of low hours people.

With all the integrated schools full to bursting (one of our cabin crew said he wants to go to one of them but both the courses and even selection is booked out for months to come) it seems unlikely that the needs that drove sponsorship still exist.

The chap who did the BA presentation (who is still in charge of recruitment) described sponsorship as an outdated legacy of the days when BA was state run.

Still, anything is possible.

[poss]

Lets put it this way, a lot of pilots are prepared to pay for everything now adays. There are a few sponsorship programs out there to help those that would like to pay for everything but don't have the money nor assets however as stated previously BA recruit from Netjets, CTC and other intergrated courses in which a lot of cadets are passing through. There would be no need for them to take the risk of sponsoring people.
It's a sad truth.

[RogerUK]

Many thanks pt_flyer,

Roger:)

[student88]

Yes they will - I hear they're looking for about 80 cadets and they'll be training with FTE in Jerez.

There is also truth in a rumor that easyJet will be following BA at FTE.

S88:ok:

[Alin83]

A have a friend that works in BA and he told me about the scolarship, could happen end of 2008, beginning of 2009.:ok:

[ElSupremo]

That's awsome news!! However, what does FTE stand for? I'm new to this game...

[pt_flyer]

Why would Easyjet change from CTC to FTE?
Are they not happy with the quality of training that CTC provides?:confused:
If the BA rumour is true that is amazing!:) Would it only last for a few years, or would it be open every year to take a steady number of cadets into their fleet?

[Adios]

BA wouldn't necessarily have to offer scholarships and certainly not 100% funding. Nothing says they have to do it like they used to in order to meet their goals. If all they do is make job offers before training starts, they will still be swamped with applications. If they work in an unsecured loan option, they could have their cake and eat it too. They could get this at CTC already, unless their capacity is already spoken for. Perhaps they might want to spread it around a bit and do something with more than one FTO.

[nick14]

Sounds like an interesting rumour,

I think that the big problem BA will find is the required intake of high QUALITY candidates. Netjets, Flybe, Thomas Cook and Excel now get the pick of the best candidates through OAA, and through CTC the airlines associated with them get their pick, as with FTE.

With all the airlines wanting the best or a certain standard, the competition for the high end guys will be fierce, so if needs be, to attract a higher number of people to the industry that otherwise couldn't afford the training/otherwise put off, and therefore increase the chances of having enough people of the required standard, there may be a need for BA and other airlines to offer something.

Then again, being a legacy carrier they may not need to do the above as the airline is attractive enough, who knows, some people do, but the rest of us may only speculate.

Nick

[clanger32]

Whilst I totally agree with Nicks comments regarding BA perhaps not getting the very cream of the crop, as they used to and perhaps expect, due to the other sponsorship schemes out there, it's also worth remembering that not all of the "cream" are on mentored schemes...for example OAA currently have one student who is 7 exams in to the theoreticals and is sitting on a 100% average and loads moreon >95% averages...

As far as I, or any of my colleagues, are aware no-one else has EVER achieved 100% on all exams taken and 99% isn't exactly shabby either, so it would be fair to assume that at least one very worthy candidate is still unattached....

[FlightDeckDave]

Its all very well passing exams with 100% average but the big question is...Can he fly?!

[clanger32]

Personally, I don't know how good he is, but I do know he's got 100+ hours on his PPL, so - annoyingly - it looks like the answer is yes.

Besides, whilst I do agree that aceing the exams is no good if you can't pass the flying tests, you can only jump the hurdles placed in front of you at any given time.....all we can say so far is that he has a perfect training record, the rest remains to be seen, but it does seem a bit harsh to be questioning his flying capability just now, purely because he's got great results. The same ("can he fly") could be said about any other cadet, could it not.......

[MrHorgy]

I don't understand, if all the other airlines have pick of the "best" at OAA, why are so many going to Ryanair?

I'd be very surprised if airlines started some sort of full sponsorship soon (other than Atlantic) because there's a massive pool of fATPL's out there, if only airlines weren't so shortsighted as to realise there are more than 4 flightschools out there!

Horgy

[Pilot Pete]

I don't know how good he is, but I do know he's got 100+ hours on his PPL, so - annoyingly - it looks like the answer is yes. Not sure how you come to that conclusion. Hours are hours, doesn't mean you are any good.;)

PP

[Groundloop]

The question asked was simply "Can he fly?". so, with a PPL he, obviously, can fly.

However, "How well?" is another question (which was not asked!):ok:

[clanger32]

Groundloop ....:ok:
I only answered the question as to whether he can fly or not! I ALSO specifically said that "I don't know how good he is"....so - at least I thought - accounting for the hours meaning diddly!

[Pilot Pete]

I'll get me coat.........:O

PP

[Philpaz]

I do know he's got 100+ hours on his PPL

Thought OAA had a limit on PPL hours, 60 i believe?

[clanger32]

TBH, I'm not sure on the exact terms, as that part never affected me. I know that no hours count towards the course and that when you get to the 100 ish mark they suggest that modular might be more appropriate, but as far as I'm aware, there is no upper limit - although I'm quite possibly wrong on that. I do know a couple of people on our course have >100 hours though...

[nick14]

Interesting,

That is very rare, your example is only one out of a class of 18/24 of which there is a class every 3/4 weeks.

Yes he may be an exceptional candidate, but having a PPL means very little, the standard of flying required in the CPL and IR is so much higher and having 100 hours is by no means an advantage, It may be the opposite as bad habits may have to be stamped out.

Im interested to see how this student fairs in goodyear.

What course are you guys?
Nick

[nick14]

no hours limits, but having 100 hours then going on an integrated course for 60 grand seems a little excessive unless the 100 hours were gained without debt?

I had 65 hours on starting OAA

[747-436]

Remember BA are not only interested in flying ability or whether you get 99% in all your exams. They are also looking for people who have the potential to be good managers so if you haven't got the potential to do that then you ain't going anywhere with them!
BA don't necessarily need all the 'cream'!

[hollingworthp]

Nick - we are on 278

[nick14]

ah interesting,

you will be coming out soon then.

[Philpaz]

What are the entry requirements for the Scheme?
If you wish to apply for the scheme, then you must fulfill all the criteria detailed below:

Have an unrestricted right to work in the UK
Be educated to 2 ‘A’ levels (or equivalent) to include Mathematics and a Science based subject.
Hold, or be capable of gaining, a UK issued JAA Class 1 medical
Have less than 60 hours of flying experience
FlyBe Scheme, knew i'd seen it somewhere!:p
Doesn't look like it applies to AppFO or even netjets.

Seems odd to me, but i suppose whatever FlyBe (the customer) wants, they get.

Paz

[hollingworthp]

As long as todays Ops doesn't sour the deal - it was pretty damn tough!

[nick14]

Mr Horgey,

The airlines get their pick before training, the graduates that are not preselected are going to ryanair.

nick

[rmoller]

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/airline_schemes_ba.htm

[Re-Heat]

no hours limits, but having 100 hours then going on an integrated course for 60 grand seems a little excessive unless the 100 hours were gained without debt?
UAS most likely...

[Tootles the Taxi]

OAA currently have one student who is 7 exams in to the theoreticals and is sitting on a 100% average and loads moreon >95% averages...

Not suggesting for a minute that the above is related but wasn't there some controversy recently about a 'database' being discovered & the expulsion of a couple of students/candidates for cheating?

[hollingworthp]

As I understand it, a set of most (if not all) the school finals papers were doing the rounds until an honest chap took a disc to the CGI. The school finals papers at OAA are very different to the JAA's (so that we cannot rely on Bristol) so that fact - in addition to my knowing the 100%'er myself - means there is no way I believe he or anyone else on my course would have used this disc.

As a consequence, we were unable to make any notes in our school finals debrief and in some subjects we were not even given the paper during the debrief to go through. Bummer really. I imagine it had been done with camera phones as we not able to have our phones near us etc.

Also 'who wants to be a millionaire' style coughing shenanigans were discovered recently - the students were expelled i think ....

[clanger32]

There was, but I can assure you the two are unrelated - those guys were on a different course. The guys who got caught cheating got the kicking they deserve. The guy I'm talking about has no need to cheat....put it this way, I've NEVER heard of anyone else who's bachelors degree was passed with such a high average, so his performance to date is clearly not unusual....

[pt_flyer]

The airlines get their pick before training, the graduates that are not preselected are going to ryanair.

nickNick, are you saying that OAA self-sponsored students get a job before they finish their training and that all those who don't go to Ryanair?

I have researched a lot of information about OAA and have never found anything that said this. Can you explain it please.

[nick14]

no not at all,

the people who apply to the airline schemes have a job before training.

Im assuming that people who apply to the schemes and are unsuccessful continue on to become pilots.

With that in mind, the cream will have already been selected, the rest will apply for jobs as normal, of which yes a high percentage have gone to ryanair recently due to their demand of late.

Hope that makes sense

[Adios]

Nick14 was responding to Mr. Horgy's post at the top of page 2.

What he meant was that the Thomas Cook, FlyBe, XL.com and NetJets cadets at OAA are chosen by the airlines and given a conditional job offer before they start training. This makes them off limits for BA recruitment via their SSP scheme, which occurs near the end of or even after completing OAA's integrated course. The assumption is that the cadet programmes soak up the "best and brightest" wannabes, which will eventually pressure BA to compete for them on the front end of the course instead of the back end. Multiply the effect by the 3-4 FTO's BA recruits from on the SSP scheme, since the other FTOs have cadet schemes as well and it could well be putting pressure on BA.

Clanger32 points out however that not all of the best and brightest necessarily care about locking down a job on the front end, so perhaps the pressure on BA is not as strong as Nick14 implies.

The truth probably lies somewhere between the two positions. I suspect the Baby Boomer retirement bubble that is predicted to hit BA in the next decade has more to do with why they might need a cadet programme, but the cadet recruitment competition for the high aptitude wannabes is probably a factor as well.

[pt_flyer]

Yes that makes sense. I didn't understand what you meant the previous post.

How do you feel about the quality of training you are getting from OAA?
Do you think they really help with employment like they all say?
BTW, what are the 3-4 FTOs that BA do accept for low hour pilots?

Thanks

[Re-Heat]

The truth probably lies somewhere between the two positions. I suspect the Baby Boomer retirement bubble that is predicted to hit BA in the next decade
Baby boomer bubble retirement finished around 3/4 years ago; with the '74 starters now with an option to continue to 60, the bubble has long passed...

what are the 3-4 FTOs that BA do accept for low hour pilots?
OAA, CTC, FTE

[Smell the Coffee]

The airline’s current growth plans will mean the recruitment of more than 300 new BA pilots in the next two years.

Willie Walsh, BA CEO - extract from BA Intranet News item, dated 14/02/08

Not implying anything here, just a fact to consider in the debate.

[nick14]

im happy so far,

i have experience of other fto's and the whole industry has its own associated problems, these problems are pretty constant throughout the fto's but less pronounced in some as i believe they are with OAA.

groundschool was first class, flight training is excellent.

Im not too sure how much help they give with the job finding but ask me again in 5 months,

my friends say they have had some assistance.

Yes im most probably am wrong about BA, but you make ure mind up and voice ure opinion on what you have heard/experienced.

[Adios]

Reheat,

The peak birth rate during the post WWII baby boom was 1960. Fast forward that lot to age 60 and the year will be 2020, so on the surface, I am not convinced they've all retired just yet. I'm not saying you are wrong, as I don't claim to be particularly well informed on BAs retirement issues. Have they released any studies on the matter?

Smell the coffee,

300 new pilots over two years is a tiny number for BA. When you consider that probably half or more would be DEPs, that leaves no more than 75 per year for SSPs from Cabair, FTE and OAA. These sort of numbers don't seem like they would create much pressure for a cadet programme unless BA really do fear they won't find the quality they want because of the other airlines with cadet schemes taking them first.

[Groundloop]

The peak birth rate during the post WWII baby boom was 1960. Fast forward that lot to age 60 and the year will be 2020, so on the surface, I am not convinced they've all retired just yet.

What on earth does a high birth rate have to do with BA's pilot recruitment? Are you trying to say that because more people of the right age were available at a certain time BA just decided to recruit extra pilots?:confused:

[Re-Heat]

True, but that is not the demographic of how BOAC / BEA recruited - the bulge has already passed through the BA seniority list.

[Von Smallhausen]

It seems as if the current demand for pilot recruitment is not being met by the supply of DEPs, SSPs and ex forces. The following is an extract from a letter to all pilots from the GM Resourcing and Strategy last December. Bear in mind the plan constantly changes, but nonetheless, the last line will be of interest to cadet wannabes. Please don't ask me questions as I have no more particular knowledge on the subject. Good luck though!


It is worth looking at BA’s fleet plans over the next year to dispel any
concerns you might have about your employment security or career
opportunities within mainline. At London we are embarking upon a period
of significant growth. Between January 2009 and April 2009, BA will take
delivery of 4 B777-200s and from August 2010 to February 2011, we will
see the arrival of the first 6 B787-8s. All of these aircraft are ‘growth’ hulls
and represent approximately 180 extra BA pilots on the master seniority
list. With part time working opportunities factored in (of which we have
received 128 bids in the current Priam round) and modest turnover
assumptions, we anticipate a level of recruitment that will exceed 150 in
the next financial year. Our future projections show that this will be the
minimum level of recruitment required in subsequent financial years. To
fund this recruitment, we will be evaluating a new ab-initio training
programme to guarantee supply of some of our pilot need.

[ElSupremo]

Hurrah... let's hope this happens!!

[adwjenk]

Hey,

I think the comment that 'the best' get onto cadet schemes is very wrong. I know dam good pilots who are Integrated and modular and did not get onto cadet schemes due to some being to young and some being to old!
Also some pilots have no drive to work for airlines like netjets, I know many who wanted to fly airliners and not business jets to start their career, some who aim to fly jets and not turboprops hence why some people do not apply to Flybe.
Each to there own in my opinion, and all the best to everyone.
Cadet schemes are far and few between now these days, netjets seems to be the only continuous one at OAT.
The reason so many are going to Ryanair is it offers plenty of jet hours and a good place to start a career, nice aircraft even though the T&C are not the same as British Airways etc... (please do not start off slagging Ryanair, this is being done else where and to be honest has go way over the top).
I would agree that the chances are there for BA to open up a monitored scheme or offer some form of financial support, but I do not see it being a fully sponsored course. As many have said part sponsored will still get lorry after lorry pulling up at Cranebank with applications.
All the best to everyone I do hope this happens it will generate some fantastic opportunity and could force other airlines into the same situation, then you never know airlines might start offering more financial aid to candidates to try and draw more towards their company!
Who knows

ADWJENK

[bradhighland]

Very well said adwjenk. I'm applying at a Oxford right now. Just waiting for my interview. Like you said, i'm interested in flying airline jets, hence why I didn't apply for NJ/FB.

[magnificent_man]

Just my 2cents but...

I think the largest Airline in the UK not offering any sort of sponsorship is shameful. There is no reason why the national flag carrier (I know Virgin technically is!!) couldn't lop off a little bit of the Fat Cats salaries at the top to provide some sort of Sponsorship program. BA's profits have been huge and the issue of training 20 or 30 Cadet Pilots a year to work for them shouldn't even be an issue.

This is all about cynical economics. Where is the promotion of flying for British Airways as a career? Surely there must be someone in the company who believes that British Airways has a responsibility to promote aviation and flying amongst the young or aspiring flyers!?

Yes there are enough of us willing to career into heavy debt in the pursute of a job, any job, flying with British Airways being the Gold Cup for many. But so what? It shouldnt all be about need. I know its not state run anymore and the better for it but, Quantas, Emirates, Singapore, Cathay and others all seem to do something!? - Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

This used to be one of the top jobs in the UK. A place for many aspiring young pilots to aim for, to work hard for. BA never sponsored huge amounts of people but it was the opportunity that counted. Now the ugly truth is that they don't need to sponsor....so they dont. Great. Inspiring isn't it?

M.M

[Re-Heat]

BA's profits have been huge
Yes, so huge that they can't pay dividends...the profits may seem large, but the invested capital from the shareholders is massive and they have not seen a dividend for a long time now, and the margins are dire. Your fiduciary duty as a director is to shareholders, not to some ideal goal - if the resources are there to recruit, they won't sponsor. If not, they will.

[ford cortina]

sorry but I thought that British Airways was a business and had shareholders....... Why should they or anyone give you or for that matter me a job??

[Adios]

If BA could get back what they've paid in fines over the last 12 months, there'd be enough for shareholders, executive bonuses, a pay rise for employees and a cadet programme. That's not necessarily what they'd do with the funds, but it puts in perspective what a bad decision taken by a handful of misguided people can do to damage a great company. The old saying, "One Oh S*&t can wipe out a thousand attaboys" comes to mind. At least there is about to be good news as the fruit of a lot of dedication and hard work is about to open this month. Let's hope it's the start of a long upward trend.

[Ullevi]

At least there is about to be good news as the fruit of a lot of dedication and hard work is about to open this month

Sponsorship scheme?

[Adios]

Ullevi,

I was referring to good news for BA stakeholders, not wannabes. BA's sparkling new Heathrow Terminal 5 opens this month.

[Ullevi]

Thank you for clearing that up!