Blink

[Go Smoke]

Hi, I wondered if anyone had any info on proposed pay rates for the Blink startup.

http://www.flyblink.com/

Thanks guys,

GS.

[Gbengusa]

I think its in the region of £60,000 for capts and £30,000 for FO's.

[African Drunk]

If they can get 3000hr experienced corporate pilots I will be shocked I would bet the average experience for their Captains will be 1000hrs or they have found a pool no one else knows about.

[CaptainProp]

African - Its all about the money. If they pay GBP 60000/year then I am sure they will find people in the turbo-prop market in UK. Sure there are quite a few guys with some a fair bit of experience who wouldn't mind a change.

CP

[blablablafly]

why interested in pay per annum... these guys will be gone in a blink ;)

[Highflight420]

No it won't,this is a very well financed start up with a detailed a long thought out business plan, 45 aircraft have been ordered to be delivered over four years making it the largest Cessna Mustang operator in the world

Four pilots hired so far, all ex British Airways all but one senior training Captains,the level of experience in hours alone perhaps 55000 flying hours.

The company will not be hiring Captains with a 1000 hours experience,it may be about the size of an APU on a jumbo!!!! but it has a sophisticated avionics fit that would put several modern airliners to shame.

[African Drunk]

The going rate for C525 pilots is £55,000 so I doubt they will poach many from there as most experienced C525/premier pilots are looking to move to larger ac in a buoyant market. So rather than GA pilots they could possibly look at airline pilots from Flybe etc. As from pilots from other jet airlines that is doubtful. They will be lower down the pile than C525 so that will mean no help from handling agents. A mustang will mean cleaning your own ac, getting your own catering and carrying all the bags, and I can't see many BA pilots wanting that! Also the hours they are quoting are similar to NetJets, so why will people not join a large company with large ac, better pay and good prospects.

[Phil Brockwell]

I assume they will be able to cancel / sell off some of those positions if the biz plan proves too optimistic. What are the financial ramifications if the Mustang proves to be unpopular with the paying public? Would Cessna allow Blink to role them over onto proper aircraft?

Phil

[Highflight420]

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of negative comments on this site,for your information the pay will be above industry standard and lifestyle is something that a lot of thought has /will be gone into,together with other benefits.

Id much rather have some very experienced airline pilots with little or no corporate experience up front than a high houred corporate pilot with no airline experience. Having straddled both camps now for over 20 years the SOPs and many other aspects that I currently see in corporate aviation leave a lot to be desired in many cases.The wealthy masses now travelling by private jet think they are somehow getting a better product because of what they are paying but the truth in my experience is somewhat different.

For a lot of pilots a short range aircraft with a max endurance of two hours no catering to worry about and small enough to clean in a jiffy could be very attractive,as the old saying goes size isn't everything and in my experience the larger the aircraft the correspondingly worse is the lifestyle.Personally I have had enough of hotel rooms to last me a lifetime.

Phil it goes up and comes down just like any other aircraft so I guess it must be a proper aeroplane.VLJs are coming just as sure as the LO CO airlines did ten plus years ago and they are super fuel efficient.At the moment each Mustang could probably fetch a $300000 dollar premium so yes if it doesn't pan out then I guess a nice tidy sum could be made.But I guess thats what sets entrepreneurs aside from the rest of us in that they are prepared to try.

African Drunk, rather arrogant of you to assume pilots going to your stated desinations above are unable to manage the likes of Samedan, etc,still know who I'd rather be with and yes they have found a pool that no one else knows about.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight.

It's just a start-up with a light jet. As light jets go, it has one feature, it's new and on a par price wise with the existing CJ's. It has a range issues, but so do the CJ's (but not quite as restrictive) it also has speculated ATC issues due to it's poor climb performance. If the price and level of service overcomes it's limitations then it will probably do OK.

We nearly purchased a couple, but could not get the return on capital that we get on the CJ, with an existing infrastructure and client base. Best of luck to these new guys, but the model has some major "IF's".

If you can find enough crews.
If you can find enough clients.
If you can keep the clients.
If TAG don't pull the AOC
If ATC allow RVSM altitudes.
If BA crews want to fly in RVSM airspace without TCAS
If your pax don't mind peeing in the cabin.


The list goes on....

Every product has a demand curve, I would expect that in order to compete with other options these aircraft would have to go out at about £1000 per hour and I can't make that work.

Too much risk for me, but that's the difference between me and an Entrepreneur. If it works then I'm sure we will be one of the imitators.

Phil

[bfato]

The company will not be hiring Captains with a 1000 hours experience,it may be about the size of an APU on a jumbo!!!! but it has a sophisticated avionics fit that would put several modern airliners to shame.

I thought it had Garmin G1000. Like the G1000 in a PPL's new 172. Even a lowly 500 hour Citation FO like me is quite at home with Primus 1000 and Proline 21 these days. If the avionics are too sophisticated for a modern airline pilot then wouldn't you rather have that 1,500 hour bizjet captain up front after all?

And you never know, he might be less likely to be absent whenever it's time to add Prist or empty the potty.

Just wondering. ;)

[Chippie Chappie]

Highflight420 said:

Id much rather have some very experienced airline pilots with little or no corporate experience up front than a high houred corporate pilot with no airline experience.

Bully for you. I'm sure that two pilots who have know idea about operating in the corporate world will deliver the level of service that you desire. But, do you really think you'll get "some very experienced airline pilots" onto that aircraft with those salaries?

At the moment each Mustang could probably fetch a $300000 dollar premium so yes if it doesn't pan out then I guess a nice tidy sum could be made.

You can only sell any extra aircraft at a slow rate otherwise you'll flood the market and send their price towards terra firma.

...yes they have found a pool that no one else knows about.

I was wondering where all those Bulgarian trainees went to....:}

[Phil Brockwell]

I'm just predicting the fun that Highflight is going to have rubbing my nose in it if Blink float for £X billion in a few years. Don't worry about the negatives, it's an opinionated business, and there are many who will remind me of the many many times I have been wrong before, but don't be too evangelical about the Mustang, the revolutionary thing about Blink is the amount of funding, not the business model, and surely not the aircraft which was really designed to block a competitor coming into the market, not as a serious public transport machine.

P

[cldrvr]

The Mustang is not going to work in the EU. They are too small, too slow, poorly equiped, have insufficient range, no payload, no practial toilet, insufficient luggage space.

The following is the performance data:

BOW (lb): 5,550
MTOW (lb): 8,645
Max landing weight (lb): 8,000
Max fuel load (gal): 2,580
Useful load (lb): 3,180
Max payload, full fuel (lb): 600

Max ceiling (ft) : 410
NBAA IFR range (nm): 1,167
Long-range cruise (ktas): 315
Max cruise (ktas): 340
Burn rate at 340 (gph): 91

Takeoff distance (ft): 3,110
Landing distance: (ft): 2,380
Balanced field length (ft): 3,110

Range:
The 510 is only good for Western Europe. With two pilots, three pax and luggage it will not reach Italy from the UK. Come winter time it will not make it home from southern Spain or Portugal without refuelling.

Speed:
The 510 is 20% slower then the 525 and 550B. Punters will wake up to this rapidly, time is money (corny but oh so true)

Price:
The 510 is not 20% cheaper on a trip by trip comparison to the 525 or 550B. A punter does not care what a plane cost per hour, he is interested in a return FAB-NCE for a weekend. The 510 is not significantly cheaper to justify the smaller size. The fixed cost of a 510 is the same as a 525/550B. Mx has the same hourly rate, EU charges the same, fuel burn difference on a trip for trip comparison is neglible, parking charges, handling and landing fees are the same.

Climb rate:
The 510 cannot climb fast enough to get above the weather and keep up with any of the other traffic. The punter will be stuck in the ****e for longer and is not going to be happy, neither will the supposed BA captain be when he has to clean the sick....

Ramp presence:
For crew, punters and handling agents alike the 510 is a toy plane. Ramp presence is very important to the punter. Customers who will charter the 510 initially will leave en masse after 4-6 trips and move up to 525's 550B's and even 560/560XL's/HS125. When I show up and order 8,000 liters of fuel I get service, when a 510 shows and orders less then my car takes he will be at the end of the queue and wait for hours. Try NCE in summer...

Crew:
There is a huge competition for qualified crew. A 510 cannot compete with the bigger planes purely for comfort, size, speed, ramp presence, clientele, APU, systems. Even if you pay left seat drivers 100k a year you will not tempt them away from the bigger jets and operators. There is no way that a BA captain, or even eJ/FR, will leave their stable rosters, ops department, pensions etc. for a 510.

Luggage space:
Anybody who flies in this industry knows that punters bring everything including the kitchen sink. The 510 is not designed to fly 3-4 pax to the south of France for a weekend, the Mrs alone will have 3-5 bags. No room for gulf clubs, skis etc.

Payload:
Only two punters and fuel, enough said.

Toilet:
Punters want a loo (private, not in the middle of the cabin) the target audience for the 510 are mostly younger families with kids, you will loose customers to the 525 and 550B rapidly. Even if the punter does not need the loo it is purely psychological.

Blink:
The investor will want a return of 12-15% per annum or else he will invest his money safely offshore in a hedgefund. I cannot see Blink generating that kind of return on capital with a 510

[Chippie Chappie]

cldrvr you are completely wrong! I would consider downgrading for £100,000 p.a. :E (waiting for pm job offer....)

[cldrvr]

Chippie, I am just commenting on Blink's own statement that BA captains are joining Blink en masse.....

Can't wait to see them
Clean the cabin after 3 rugrats have emptied every drawer and ground the peanuts in the carpet
Carry the luggage in 35 degree heat
Sit in the cockpit at -25 degrees awaiting a clearance
Deal with handling agents, ramp rats, customs and immigratioin
Deal with pax delays
Deal with ops screw ups
Deal with reroutes down routes without dispatchers
Deal with reduced rests and extensions of duties
Deal with queues for fuel, catering, plogs, flightplans.
Deal with reduced cruise levels due to low ROC
Deal with LMC's
Empty a lousy toilet cartridge
Wash the cups, plates and silverware (oops no room to put them anywhere)
Try to find a supermarket downroute at 3 am for stock
Liaise with engineering

Oh yeah, BA crew are well placed to work in our industry!!!

To each their own, we don't quite fit in at BA, they don't quite fit in with us. Choosing between executive and legacy is a clear choice and not comparable.

BA guys are excellent at what they do and we in turn are excellent at what we do.

This is by no means meant as airline vs executive bashing!!!!

[Chippie Chappie]

And I am commenting on Highflight420's very defensive statements. Hyperbole cldrvr.

[cldrvr]

The whole debate of legacy vs executive

Apples and Oranges

can, worms, hide....

[Chippie Chappie]

cldrvr, check pm

[apruneuk]

Highflight420

"Id much rather have some very experienced airline pilots with little or no corporate experience up front than a high houred corporate pilot with no airline experience"

A bit arrogant of you to come to the GA forum with that attitude. If I was about to hang out on the ramp at Farnborough in a toy jet I'd practice a little more humility. Maybe a more realistic name would help - how about Lowflight220 ?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Highflight Said:
Id much rather have some very experienced airline pilots with little or no corporate experience up front than a high houred corporate pilot with no airline experience. Having straddled both camps now for over 20 years the SOPs and many other aspects that I currently see in corporate aviation leave a lot to be desired in many cases.The wealthy masses now travelling by private jet think they are somehow getting a better product because of what they are paying but the truth in my experience is somewhat different.


Rather broad brush old chap, you might want to revisit that. Actually you might not want to in which case you are coming across as a bit of an arrogant git and perhaps more worrying for you the vast majority of pilots who come on here (who you may be seeking to employ in case this fantastic seem of VLJ pilots [which this corner of the industry has managed to miss for the last 30 months or so] dries up) think that somebody senior within Blink is an a$$hole.

Sorry!

[Highflight420]

I'm fortunate enough that in twenty years of flying both corporate and airline I have never been labelled as arrogant,many other things perhaps but not that.

The truth is, whether you like it or not and with exceptions in both of course,the standard of both training and operational procedures is generally higher in the airline world,those of you who have never set foot outside the corporate world might and will take issue with my statement and find it arrogant,it's not its a statement of fact.I feel well qualified to say that as I have done both at various times over 20 years and its been my good fortune that thanks to my excellent and very thorough training within the airline environment that I'm able to survive in the corporate world.

Blink is not revolutionary and the people concerned are well aware of the Mustangs limitations and it's niche in the market place but their business model is new and a little different to companies trading at the moment,sufficient to have attracted some considerable investment,particularly significant at a time when a lot of money men are drawing in the purse strings. There must be some confidence in it's business model to have ordered 45 aircraft and likewise Jetbird with an order for 100 Embraer Phenoms

Again it will never cease to amaze me on this site how so many pilots are ready to shoot down a new idea whilst claiming they know best but I guess its ever been thus on PPRuNe, if thats the case why aren't more pilots setting up companies and working for themselves? Little bit of small man syndrome going on here me thinks and I'd be a little worried about the mentality of someone who thinks flying a small aircraft is any less purposeful employment than flying a large one,I thought those views had gone out with the ark,obviously not.

[NorthCountryBoy]

cldvr says:


Can't wait to see them
Clean the cabin after 3 rugrats have emptied every drawer and ground the peanuts in the carpet
Carry the luggage in 35 degree heat
Sit in the cockpit at -25 degrees awaiting a clearance
Deal with handling agents, ramp rats, customs and immigratioin
Deal with pax delays
Deal with ops screw ups
Deal with reroutes down routes without dispatchers
Deal with reduced rests and extensions of duties
Deal with queues for fuel, catering, plogs, flightplans.
Deal with reduced cruise levels due to low ROC
Deal with LMC's
Empty a lousy toilet cartridge
Wash the cups, plates and silverware (oops no room to put them anywhere)
Try to find a supermarket downroute at 3 am for stock
Liaise with engineering

Oh yeah, BA crew are well placed to work in our industry!!!

To each their own, we don't quite fit in at BA, they don't quite fit in with us. Choosing between executive and legacy is a clear choice and not comparable.

BA guys are excellent at what they do and we in turn are excellent at what we do.

This is by no means meant as airline vs executive bashing!!!!

And there are many corporate pilots I wouldn't mind seeing deal with the above list !!!

In defence of some of the ex-BA guy's in the industry (I can only speak for the ones I know and deal with), they're not quite as incapable of adjusting to life in the corporate world as you seem to give (or not give) them credit for

[Flintstone]

I'm fortunate enough that in twenty years of flying both corporate and airline I have never been labelled as arrogant

Being the considerate chap that I am I was inclined to think that most of your last post might be interpreted as being ever so slightly ironic but I gladly gave you the benefit of the doubt. This bit..... Little bit of small man syndrome going on here me thinks and I'd be a little worried about the mentality of someone....... ....however would appear, in some circles, to be the clincher.

Not sure you're doing yourself any favours there old fruit.

[Phil Brockwell]

I think the scepticism comes from the history of people setting up operations with no experience in commercial private ops, tend to have a poor track record of being successful. (lets start a list - Gregg Air...Air Victoria to start)

I see that Blink are going to become an aircraft leasing company, who knows if they will make money, but understand this. Pilots and passengers want to know that the aircraft are being operated properly, not that the responsibility of safe operations can be purchased in the form of umbrella operations.

If my aircraft are run unsafely it is my responsibility. If Blinks aircraft run unsafely the guy from TAG goes to prison. Superior BA crew or not, I know which aircraft I would want to put my familly in. Also it makes stupid business sense to have the most key part of your operation not under your control.

Incidentally, most operators get weekly calls from people offering City Funding, just no-one wants it.

[Highflight420]

Phil I know of your company and the good reputation it has and I totally agree with your comments,however its not unusual in order to get up and running to piggy back on someone elses AOC and I doubt TAG would have agreed without some considerable thought beforehand,nobody to my knowledge on this site has ever rubbished TAG as a company and the people I know who work there have nothing but praise for the operation.If I remember correctly that is how Easy Jet started.

I've no doubt Blink will obtain their own AOC in the fullness of time,and safety will have to be the number 1 priority hence the employment of considerably experienced pilots as the start up team,any talk of whether ex BA pilots can or are willing to take on the extra roles involved in corporate is just silly uninformed twaddle with a little bit of anti BA retoric thrown in for good measure.Those of you out there employed in corporate aviation who like to think there is a large difference in the two types of operation are deluding themselves,there is only one way to operate an aircraft be it corporate or airline, big or small and that is with excellent training from the start and a good set of SOPs, anyone who thinks otherwise is living in the past.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight.

What was the CRJ operator who woke up one day without an AC because TAG had pulled it?

Phil

[flynowpaylater]

I have to agree with Phil. They (someone) has invested millions of pounds into aircraft, yet have failed to invest the £100k or so in obtaining an AOC.

If I remember correctly that is how Easy Jet started.

That is correct, however, this was a completely different business model. Air Foyle completely ran the operation, with EasyJet selling the seats. Running an AOC is all about accountability. I fail to see where the accountability is with Blink. It's there own pilots, with there own ops, yet they are not accountable. As good a reputation as TAG have, I think they will find it difficult to demonstrate to the Feds that they have the required control.

No axe to grind by the way, just surprised that such a short cut can be made, with such investment going in. Notwithstanding the extra cost of piggy backing on someone's AOC. I am sure TAG are not doing for nothing. This will ultimately bring the cost per hour up, and make the mustang even less viable.

[Highflight420]

God I'm glad I don't work with some of you guys,so many negative comments.I guess that's why you end up flying in the front two seats and not the back!!!!

[Phil Brockwell]

Me....fly....now that's an aircraft I wouldn't put my family on. Must be pimms o'clock.

Highflight. You are surrounded by some of the sharpest minds in what it takes to make an operation commercially viable (obviously not me).

We normally get to charge a fortune for the advice your 20 years of sitting in a cockpit have qualified you to dismiss.

I think it great that you believe in your product....so did I on many failed projects. Time will tell.

[Iver]

Here is future office for Blink pilots:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6113223&nseq=0

G1000 seems pretty capable.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Highflight

there is only one way to operate an aircraft be it corporate or airline, big or small and that is with excellent training from the start and a good set of SOPs, anyone who thinks otherwise is living in the past

But thats all well and good, I'm sure your prospective employees have fine airline flying pedigrees and a fantastic training record etc etc.

As you have a foot in both camps perhaps you can explain how your turboprop guys and ex 744 captains who fancy a change would cope with a Katana coming the other way in an uncontrolled circuit or say a busy little VFR reposition say Southend to Biggin direct.

The only exposure to other close in and dirty traffic (The non TCAS kind) that some of these guys will have ever seen is on the last day of your sim refresher (I assume we have all seen the flying fire truck)

Stumbling from one radar environment to another four times a day whilst on the "rails" of a typical turboprop operators schedule is not particularly challenging.

No doubt all Blink pilots will learn all these skills, I'm sure you would agree that its not something you can do in the sim. But in the meantime where's your Airline safety????? Sometimes you need to see things for the first tiime for yourself.

Perhaps play it "Airline" safe and go to Nice instead of Cannes and wait 3 hours for fuel or Lulsgate instead of Gloucester, Gatwick instead of Southend, Geneva instead of Sion and make the pax taxi the rest of the way.

If my 6 numbers came up and I managed to buy me a 7X I would immediately retire proceed directly to BA's crew room at LHR dig out the crustiest 744 TRE and pay him 200k to fly me to Singapore. Mustangs are Kingair 90's with jet engines, the long winded point I'm trying to make is dont pontificate about airline safety and accuse others of being less safe than you are and then employ round pegs for square holes.

Sincerely wish you all the best with it though, I'm sure it will be a great success, and if its not sell the options on the a/c and pocket the vast amounts of cash.

[Chippie Chappie]

Highflight420,

So you've got 4 pilots, oodles of cash, ordered 45 aircraft (that's where the cash is going, no?) and arranged to piggy-back off someone else's AOC.

Lots of plans but what have you actually done/achieved? Until you've proved that this business model works, it's just a model.

I guess that's why you end up flying in the front two seats and not the back!!!! Did you pick that one up off "How to win friends and influence people". Don't think I'll be submitting my CV to that sort of "management" if that's your attitude towards the people who are critical to the success of your business.

Chips

[apruneuk]

Highflight

"its been my good fortune that thanks to my excellent and very thorough training within the airline environment that I'm able to survive in the corporate world."

Why is it that I have a mental image of Higgins from Magnum when I read your posts? A glance at several of the current threads on the Rumours forum will show that some airlines' sops and/or the implementation of same occasionally leave a lot to be desired.

In corporate, as in airline, there are bottom-feeding cowboy operations who let the side down. There are also many professionally-run outfits who strive to maintain high standards in all departments. Rather than trumpeting your superiority and getting fragile pilots' backs up it might be a better idea to quietly lead by example in your new venture thus shaming those with shabby sops and poor training into emulating Blink. The skies will surely be safer for it.

[Highflight420]

apruneuk

I think if you read my previous post I said there are exceptions in both camps.

Buts thats the point I dont see airline being that different to corporate,its down to individuals who like to think the one can't do the others job which is really a load of tosh.

Regards your point about leading by example you are exactly right and I think that's what the Blink team intend to do,whether it works or not only time will tell but there is nothing wrong in having immense pride in what you are trying to achieve and something thats lacking from the workplace in general these days.

[Highflight420]

Chippie Chappie

Why would you be critical of a team of people trying to set up something new? it seems this sort of attitude is endemic in the UK workplace these days.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight.

I think people are negative because they think it's a reckless idea.

When AIr Charter Scotland purchased CJ's did everyone call them arrogant...no because it wasn't risky beyond commercial sense.

In fact when LEA anounced it's Mustang purchase, people aplauded (a fan of the airframe or not). because they do it properly, and it is part of a larger fleet.

To phase in 40 aircraft with no license to operate them in a market that will not support another 40 aircraft is at best optimistic.

The client gets an inferior product and the rest of us have to put up with the rate dumping that always follows struggling operators who need large market share to simply break even.

[CABUS]

I am afraid to say I have been watching this thread and I feel it has got a bit bitter. My personal opinion is that companies such as BA that operate SESMA in all their aircraft and monitor its trends and then modify the training to suit is an excellent way to train. This way everyone can learn from someone else's misfortune to create a safer fleet. I am probably mistaken here but I cannot think of MANY privite jets that have these capibilites and put them towards such good use. If I am just miss informed I do apologise but surely everyone can agree this is an excellent way to iron out problems and trends within any company. The reason I mention this is becuase everyone seems a bit bitter that BA pilots have been mentioned to be better than others. Because of these systems in many large airlines, not only BA, I must agree that they surely have a better form of training especially as some large well established airlines have had this inforce for some years now. Also airlines are able to refresh and train their pilot in advance and offer jump seat rides to familiarize them with the procedures, surely this can only help. Some companies have to lead the way in safety, NOT saying that BA is one of them but why are we bitter and unable to accept some companies train better than others as long as safety is moving forward and all companies are progressing who really cares?

And for the following comment.. I mean come on were all friends here!

As you have a foot in both camps perhaps you can explain how your turboprop guys and ex 744 captains who fancy a change would cope with a Katana coming the other way in an uncontrolled circuit

I fly with a retired BA 767/Flybe Capt and it does not bother him in the slightest, he acutally laughs and mentions previous times where this happend in his career. I remember him joking about being number 2 behind a glider in a DH4 in France, it was either La Rochelle or Toulouse.

Anyway lets not all get bitter, its obvious that all pilots are trained to a very high standard and have expertise in their own field its not a competition about who is a better pilot!

I wish Blink every success!

[Flintstone]

I guess that's why you end up flying in the front two seats and not the back!!!!



Aaaaannnnndd.......STRIKE TWO!!!


Tell me HF. In your very excellent airline training and (implied) inferior GA/bizjet training did anyone ever mention CRM? Warning flags are popping up on your posts with increasing regularity.

As for the Blink model I think, as others have said, it's a bomb. Better business brains than mine are questioning the viability of these machines and no doubt as the result of sound reasoning whereas to me, as a lowly 'front seater' it just smells wrong. Range, capacity etc, etc. Nahhhh, put the money in a savings account instead.

I would also question the claim of all these multi-thousand, widebody captains jumping ship to fly a....a........what was it? Mustang.....? Shurely shome mishtake?

High time, ex-flag carrier captains with low time (read 'new') FO's? At the risk of over generalising, that's a situation that will require some very careful monitoring and that's before we go down the 'who empties the bog?' route (yes, yes, yes I know. I've flown with ex-airline, ex-military, ex-you-name-it pilots too). They'll just get fed up.

[Highflight420]

Flintstone,

I'm pleased to say my CRM skills are up there with the best of them,unfortunately this forum doesn't bring out the best of them.

I have never said BA pilots are the best pilots in the world but and its a big but, they are amongst the best trained,we have all passed the initial GFTs and IR but we don't all go on to get the best follow up training,now you can go off and throw your toys out of the pram,tell me your aircraft is bigger than mine etc etc because of that statement but it's a fact.

What strikes me as very sad is the amount of negative comments and self professed experts on this site.I have never said Blink will necessarily go on to be a raging success but two young men have had the foresight and enthusiasm to give it their all.I would add that I sit up front too and always will because I don't have that little something extra that sets those that do and those that don't apart.

I for one admire them for being prepared to give it a go the same way that the foresight of a certain greek cypriot has given rise to the creation of hundreds of pilots jobs flying around in orange aircraft.

Phil,

It's called competition and it's been around since the begining of time,who knows if the model works you might find yourself ordering some.:)

[apruneuk]

"To phase in 40 aircraft with no license to operate them in a market that will not support another 40 aircraft is at best optimistic."

I think that Blink are looking to create an entirely new market. Anyone who flies around in a mid-large business jet doesn't relax happy in the knowledge that they have saved money over travelling business class. Cost simply isn't an issue for them - time, comfort, independence and show are more likely driving factors.

Blink's market appears to be middle-management businessmen and budding entrepreneurs who would normally travel business class but have become disillusioned with the current loco airline model and oppressive security checks at the larger airports. That, added to the convenience of travelling when they want to and arriving at an airport closer to their ultimate destination whislt being treated with a modicum of respect for a similar cost to airline travel makes a compelling case for an operation such as Blink.

I think that the biggest hurdle for Blink in the short term will be the looming recession and a need for shareholders to see executives at least making an effort at a little belt-tightening; hopefully the money men at Blink saw that one coming and have set aside enough to weather the storm, if it hits.

I genuinely wish Blink all the luck in the World. Anyone with balls that big deserves to succeed.

[Phil Brockwell]

If the Mustang was cheaper than existing or better than aircraft already available I would completely agree with you. However they seem to be more expensive than the ce550 and C525's.

[Highflight420]

apruneuk

I think you are entirely accurate as to the market Blink is aiming at.

[chevvron]

It might help Blink to know that the increase in weekend movements at Farnborough has got government approval.(announced at 9 am today)

[flynowpaylater]

aprune said, with Highflight agreement

think that Blink are looking to create an entirely new market. Anyone who flies around in a mid-large business jet doesn't relax happy in the knowledge that they have saved money over travelling business class. Cost simply isn't an issue for them - time, comfort, independence and show are more likely driving factors.

Blink's market appears to be middle-management businessmen and budding entrepreneurs who would normally travel business class but have become disillusioned with the current loco airline model and oppressive security checks at the larger airports. That, added to the convenience of travelling when they want to and arriving at an airport closer to their ultimate destination whislt being treated with a modicum of respect for a similar cost to airline travel makes a compelling case for an operation such as Blink.


How is that "an entirely new market" ? Every Biz Jet, or fractional ownership operator sings the same song.

The point being, that the shiny brochure may convince some investors, but a bit of research shows that the market is fairly well covered already. Add to this the general economic downturn around the world, and Mr middle management will be TOLD by Mr CEO to go scheduled. The safe future for the Biz Jet market is the high nett worth individual, who will be more than happy to pay a bit more for a more spacious cabin, a proper toilet, and not having to do a tech stop because there is more than 3 of them.

I think Phil is spot on, there will be a lot of marketing, and a lot of interest in the honeymoon period, but ultimately, Blink will either have to downsize it's ambitions, or dump rates to get market share.

highflight - it may sound negative, but it is just the reality of the situation as seen by people already in the industry. Lets face it, if it was that easy, then everyone would be doing it.

Business class ticket ex LCY to GVA with Swiss (good product) £550 open return. So £1650 for 3 pax. How much on a mustang?

[sispanys ria]

I would say 3500 pounds (estimation).
But don't forget the wasted time cost (at least 3 h in the airport) based on the pax's cost of time. In addition, blink flights are more flexible, confidential, and can reach destinations that scheduled flights can't.
If you need to go to Sion from LCY, total costs would be very different with the airline.
They are creating pilot jobs, so what is wrong with that ?

[flynowpaylater]

3 hours at the airport - At LCY you can walk in, buy your ticket, check in, go through security, have a beer, and be departing within 45 mins of parking your car. Ditto at GVA.

Just done the figures, and i reckon the mustang would need a tech stop with 3 x 90Kg males. mmmmmmmmm...........and i can save £2000.

If I am rich enough to go to Sion on a Biz Jet (probably going skiing), why would I want to tech stop on the way.....ah yes, that's right, coz I need a pee !

[Flintstone]

If I am rich enough to go to Sion on a Biz Jet (probably going skiing),

Skis in a Mustang? Where? Unrestrained baggage in the cabin, surely not?

[Phil Brockwell]

£3500???

The landing fees alone are approx £1500. 1200 per hour for the aircraft @ 320knts, makes 3.6 hours from and back to FAB. £5,800.

If Mr Middle manager is worth that extra cost for that few hours I would be very surprised.

Phil

[Highflight420]

Skis will fit into the rear baggage compartment.

If some of you guys are relying on keeping your high end jobs just because the rich are on a roll at the moment than I would say that was a little bit dodgy,yes plenty of biz jets ordered by a large proportion of Russians I might add, but who wants to live in Moscow,certainly not me.Me thinks to many of you have been in the business for too short a time to not remember financial downturns in the past when looking for a job in flight was like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Blink to my knowledge intend to bring Business type flying to a larger market,in particular companies who would not previously cost wise use private jets for salaried staff lower down the pecking order.

This aircraft sips fuel and whether your rich or not, care about the environment and your childrens future or couldn't give a bugger there are all sorts of issues that will come into play and make this aircraft atractive to a certain market.Its not long haul its a short range close European aircraft flying on average 2.5 pax,I'm sure they have investigated their market well before taking millions of pounds off their investors.I fly one of the largest cabin exec aircraft and regularly have no more than two or three people on short European trips,it doesn't always sit very comfortably with me,it's costly not required and will increasingly become unacceptable to those of us who fly these things around but have an eye on the future of our children and the planet.

flynowpaylater

Very apt user name by the way if your employ it in the environmental sense.Have you tried to get to London City recently by anything other than a helicopter.I've never been able to get there in less than 3 hours and I don't live a million miles away.

As regards everyone doing it, they don't that's why we fly aircraft and a small number of individuals sit in the back in luxury having had the ideas.I'm no better I thought LOCO airlines wouldn't last five minutes,how wrong was I.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight.

Listen carefully....they are not more cost effective than existing options. They cost more than existing light jets.

This will not open up private travel to people who currently don't use it based on price BECAUSE THEY COST MORE.

Can you take Heli's into LCY?

You continue to compare these new composite jets to the concept of Lo-Co's. Why? there is no cost saving from using them? At least Stellios gave us worse service at a better price. This concept just gives a worse aircraft at more money? Am I missing something?

[Monkey Boy]

Ah Phil - you beat me to it!! Heli's at LCY := Current charter rates on the Mustang are, I can confirm, more or less the same as a CJ1. The benefit therefore is.........?

[Phil Brockwell]

The benefit is a newer aircraft. If the Blink guys are right then the obvious disadvantages of the design will be accepted by the majority due to the draw of newer aircraft.

Going off the subject a bit, is Blink going to be having different costs for end users and brokers?

Phil

[Highflight420]

Well with great respect to yourself and at the risk of sounding arrogant and I know I have already been accused of that,yes you are Phil.

They are seeking to establish a new idea in an existing market,I can understand established operators like yourself taking umberance at my stance but once agian I have to say why so much negativity towards a new start up that may or may not succeed,you all seem to think there is plenty of work around or is that where the gripes arise in that you don't want to see a new kid on your patch.

Two young men have got together come up with what they think is a new slant on an existing market and intend to give it a shot,providing new pilot jobs as they expand.Time alone will tell whether your right and they are wrong or vice versa buts let drop this famous English trait of knocking everything and everyone that comes along with a new idea,surely we can all be a little bit more grown up and wish them every success.

[Flintstone]

Skis will fit in the rear locker? They never did on the Bravo.

What's 'umberance'?

[youngskywalker]

Skis are getting shorter every year now, compared to 5 years ago they are about 1f oot shorter on average! Just my tuppence worth sorry!:\

[flynowpaylater]

"In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

Very true statement, but, why is the one eyed man in the land of the blind in the first place?

So, the land of the blind is the current market place of biz jet operators, and the one eyed man........blinked....and missed the point entirely.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight,

What I am missing is - what is the new idea, what is the new slant. Private aircraft from A to B. Please don't tell me the idea is that the cost will make it available to middle management because it is not true.

I don't take umberance to anything, apart from the fact that you seem to have no knowledge of the marketplace and yet are adamant that you are right.

[dc9-32]

Just an observation Phil, and no offence intended, but you spend a lot of time on Pprune during the working day don't you. Maybe your company is not that busy or, you don't do much during a normal working day !!

Now, I wonder if TAG are fully behind this Blink concept or will they just pull the AOC from this operation like they did on another operator not so long ago ??

[sispanys ria]

Fantastic topic !
Flynowpaylater, how can you spend less than 3 hours in the airport on a return trip ? Checking in and out, security, waiting for luggages ?
Seems you've never come to GVA (this is where I'm currently sitting :} so I have good Idea of how long it takes).

Instead of gossiping like old ladies, you'd better send a quotation request to get the real info, and if you need a pee stop between LCY and GVA, it might be the right time to go and check your prostate :ok:.

What about waiting and see what will happen ? In the worse case, some pilots would be really happy to get a job and a new experience, even if it's not for long. I'm French, and I never could imagine people with more negative visions than ours :D

This business model is a direct competitor to the fractional one (who could believe it would work in the past ?), and I wish them a lot of success. I would also enjoy to join the team.

[flynowpaylater]

It's all part of Phil's working day. He also writes a column in Men's Health.

[flynowpaylater]

flynowpaylater, how can you spend less than 3 hours in the airport on a return trip ?

By not flying EasyJet.

[sispanys ria]

Beside being a very funny guy, are you able to participate to a serious conversation or did you just ask daddy to play with his laptop ?

Since you have to be in the airport AT LEAST one hour before departure time, it's already 2 hours MINIMUM on a return trip. And you still have to add the disembark and luggage collection time. Through the General Aviation Terminal it's only 5 min...

[flynowpaylater]

Fly ex LCY. If you read my post correctly, you will see that it is easily possible to do in 45 mins. (30 if you already bought your ticket)

Thanks, I am flattered by the funny guy thing.

[Phil Brockwell]

sispanys ria
Would you really think it medically odd to need a pee on a 1:30 flight?
DC-9
I may spend a few minutes on pprune, but I've been at work since 07:00 and will be leaving shortly.

Seriously. Can anyone in the know tell us what the angle is with Blink, obviously there is some radically new way of purchasing time on aircraft? I'm interested. We've seen people in the past who simply came in with the business plan of being more hungry from a marketing perspective, but maybe Blink really have found a unique way of selling their services. I'm not after anyone betraying any confidence, but with all the bluster they must have something special up their sleeves apart from funding and aircraft type?

[Phil Brockwell]

Going back to the BA pilots vs the GA Pilots question, we've had a couple of ex-airline guys, one is really very good indeed in the getting it done department, and has certainly added something to the mix with regards SOP's, the other one wasn't.

phil

[Highflight420]

Phil,

From what I've managed to glean from the press Blinks model is going to be different from your usual AOC operation,I guess its all confidential until it launches in the next month or so.Maybe brokers wont be playing such a large part of the operation which wont be such a bad thing and will therefore lead to a larger slice of the profits.

As the Mustang is not intended for the rich luxury end of the market, cutting out catering,water and waste servicing will only save time and money,in my humble experience most so called executive catering leaves a lot to be desired and in a lot of cases is just repackaged food available to all from Waitrose with an enormous premium placed on it.On a short flight most execs will be happy with a paper to read and a bottle of water,from the tap of course!!!!!

[Chippie Chappie]

Sorry for the delay in replying. Been away for a few days being muggins-up-the-front.

Highflight420 asked:

Chippie Chappie

Why would you be critical of a team of people trying to set up something new? it seems this sort of attitude is endemic in the UK workplace these days.

I’m not critical of all new ideas, far from it, I just happen to be very sceptical of this one and suspicious of someone who opened up their PPRuNe account to defend Blink. It appears that I’m not the only one.

Your argument that flying in a smaller business jet will be preferable because it is more environmentally friendly than a larger one is one-eyed. If that's your driving factor in choosing a mode of transport, you'd go commercial.

I’ve answered your questions, now you can answer mine. What has Blink actually achieved so far that is making money in a revolutionary way?

Chips

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight,

You are not part of Blink? I assumed the way you were blindly backing everything they have planned that you were in the fold. It would now appear that you actually know naff all about it, apart from what we have all read in the press. I didn't realise you were just some high houred wannabe after a job with them.

[Highflight420]

Chippie Chappie,

First of all I haven't just opened an account been on here viewing for some years.

Secondly in answer to your question absolutely nothing so far,they haven't officially launched as yet.I'm not defending the company or ideas etc etc, I'm defending the fact that two young guys have had that guts to put up their own money and raise additional finance for a well thought out business plan that they think will work,time alone will tell but at least they are doing it,compared to the many others on this site who seem to pontificate and denegrate for no real reason. If you were all such smart business men you wouldn't be up front flying other peoples aircraft like me,most of us are risk averse, thank god a few are not otherwise no new businesses would ever get off the ground.

Phil,

Argh the personal attack I wondered when that would come,I wasn't aware I had made any personal remarks against you,just rather goes to prove that this industry has a long way to go before it grows up.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight,

That's hardly a personal attack. You have come in here, openly criticised with a broad brush all other GA operators, praised the "well thought out business plan that they think will work" with no knowledge of what that business plan is. The gusto that you approached the "will they won't they" question over Blink is bizarre if it is simply based on admiration of their affinity to risk.

Phil

[sispanys ria]

Bizare ? So what ? Do you think Blink is looking for clients on Pprune ?

Some of your comments are making me sick. What is wrong with this endeavour ? If it doesn't work, you'll be satisfied, and you will be allowed to proudly say "i've predicted it!" and if it works, it would just be fine (except for the jealous ones...)
There is definitely a market. I know it because I worked for a year on such a specific niche. Some are already working on it. The marketing approach has nothing to do with the classic aviation industry. What people are looking after is a cost effective solution (the word solution includes many different services and benefits). Fractional of PC 12 and TBMs are doing very good job in Europe and in the states, just like Avantair. Thanks to their AOC they will go commercial, more attractive than fractional. What most of you don't understand, is that there is a big new market of clients currently not using business aviation because of the costs. Blink will raise new corporate clients.
Think like a Manager: multiply the hourly salary of your traveling staff by 2 wasted hours in the airports. Multiply it by the number of used flight, and you will get how much you are wasting every year with the airline. Business aviation is the solution, because it is flexible and time saving (in addition it can take you directly to unscheduled destinations). The only problem is the cost. By lowering it, you will raise new customers. Managers are not stupid, they will do their maths.

And even if you don't agree with this model, you still can be skeptical in a more decent way, and respect people working hard to setup their dreams.

[His dudeness]

..."What most of you don't understand, is that there is a big new market of clients currently not using business aviation because of the costs. Blink will raise new corporate clients."

My best guess is, that IF the Mustang is the way to undercut the costs of businessjet travel in a way to get close to Airlines Business Class costs, than it will work as advertised. Looking at the available info on the Mustang, I just doubt it. It is definetely a nice airplane, but where exactly is the gain over, say a C525?
The ONLY way to lower your cost per hour is fly a lot.(Granted that they might get better rates for being regularly customers with Handlers, but will that be that significant? They will manage better fuel prices on airfield with competition, but not at the advertised remote fields that have their own bowser)
Without empty legs, otherwise the benefit is gone. CAN they do that? Can they put, say an average of 12 hrs per day on the airplane? Is the Mustang designed to do that kind of hard work? I thought its aimed at the upgrader from KA, Conquests and the like...
I´ve been in executive aviation for quite a while and I´ve seen a lot of startups with "revolutionary" new ideas. Most are history by now. Look at NetJets, they are making a profit now, after how many years of loosing money? Is Blink backed up by another Warren Buffet?

Don´t get me wrong, if BLINK works as advertised, I´ll salute the guys for beeing so smart. Still I have some nagging doubts...

[Martin Barnes]

why do you spend so much time in here talking to these guys do they buy charters ?.

So the new idea is no catering and tap water. "awesome"

I think he means 'umbrage.

[Phil Brockwell]

Hi Martin,

I see you have the inside knowledge of the masterplan.

Syspanis,

I was describing Highflights blind backing of a business plan that he claims to have scant knowledge as bizarre, I hope Blink isn't bizarre, it's what we have been doing for 20 years. There is nothing in your description that is not currently being done, it's just a different type of aircraft, that in my opinion offers less value for money than a C525.

As if we have not been selling the benifits of time saving from charter. You think people actually want to sit in these thimgs - no, Time is our product.

There is little point in preaching to people who were converted 15 years ago.

[bfato]

I've been away working but left this thread with the impression our protagonist wasn't a pilot, but rather a 20-something year-old who'd bought into a Blink salesman's hype.

Now that I'm back and caught up I see no reason to change my mind.

Highflight420, did they sting you for much money?

[Highflight420]

Phil,

I'm not blindly backing anyone or preaching anything,I'm basically saying good luck to the two young men setting it up,it's just the typical British attitude to shoot down all and sundry that rather saddens me.

The Mustang I understand will be built in larger numbers than the other small citations currently being built and I guess there must be a cost advantage or the programme wouldn't be sold out for the next few years,the vast majority being sold into Europe are going to companies rather than individuals so somebody thinks there is a market,you don't order these significant numbers on a whim and a prayer.

I don't imagine Blink are going to directly challenge your company for business Phil,that's more likely to be LEA I would have thought.My bigger worry is that you spend so much time on this site instead of perhaps chasing new business,I'm glad I'm not relying on you for my long term employment.My excuse is it's my days off and it's raining outside:)

Mr Barnes,

I most certainly did and thank you for correcting my spelling,maybe you would like to run a quick eye over my previous posts.:) Easyjet and RyanAir get away without the food and water unless you want to pay for it,this is the lower end of the market these guys are aimimg at.I refer you to my previous post, I am forever uplifting pretty shoddy very expensive catering that I could provide from Waitrose at a much reduced price,bottled water is it seems declining in popularity so tap water might be the new thing in the UK at least, maybe not some countries abroad.

bfato

Oh to be 20 again, no I'm a long way from that mortgage worry free age,30 years in aviation at the sharp end and in both camps qualifies me to have my own views I think,and I thought I'd turned into a grumpy old man.Aviation used to be such a pleasant place to be how it's changed.I guess I'm just :ugh:

[Phil Brockwell]

Malc

He started it...........:E

Apparently you are not allowed opinions about a company run by a couple of chaps with a business plan...I think...or something like that....good aircraft...no...oh?...environmentally freindly then....no....cheaper..no?....ahh, they are going to sell charters to save people time?...already done? ok, good luck to them...fine lads and all that.

[Monkey Boy]

I've noticed an interesting paradox on this forum! We have a thread running about a company who's business model is based on the LoCo style, in which the owner claims that you should expect an inferior service, tatty aircraft, no catering and penalties if you turn up late but accept it because you bought cheap and then we have this thread about a new fleet of aircraft based on the LoCo model (stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap - stuff the catering, let the buggers starve) which the owners claim will be hugley successful without any compromise to the passengers.

Well, good luck to them. Assuming they get the right number clients on board to make it work (and that WILL be the tough part) then they also need to make sure their ops team is as tight as a drum, and as trustworthy as possible - they only need to take a quizzical glance at the 24/7 thread to see how it COULD all go!

Oh, and the concept of using a private jet to save time? Staggering, it had never occured to me before....... There surely must be more to it than that?

[sispanys ria]

I don't understand why some of you believe there is a need to advertise Blink on Pprune :eek:...

They already have a good marketing strategy, and it's not here they will prospect clients.

Beside the market niche consideration, I have to admit one thing. The Mustang is definitely not the best aircraft to achieve their goal.

The only efficient way to achieve a really profitable offer in this niche would be to have our SMART :8 JAR authorities being finally compliant with the ICAO annex 6 recommendation. In US, Australia, Canada, Malaysia and so many countries, you can operate commercial flights with modern single engine turboprops (under stringent conditions). And a commercially operated PC 12 would definitely get you the right cost effective solution... but in Europe, seems like we don't want of it...:ugh:

[Flintstone]

If there were an award for dogged persistence Malc would win hands down :D

For God's sake! Would an FAA operator somewhere give him a job? He's driving us nuts!!



;)

[Martin Barnes]

Hey Phil

I just had a wonderful idea! why dont we buy a fleet of single engine turbo-props like the tbm850

forget the catering, drink tap water, fly on the N like the old days.

this time next year we could be rich ! call the lawyers see if it can be done !

[sispanys ria]

It's already done by Jetfly, and it works very well (fractional only)

[Phil Brockwell]

Martin,

Have you forgotten about the losses on the 208?

[Phil Brockwell]

Martin,

Anyway, we'd have to be based in Weston / Dublin, ilegal charters are legal over there.

[bfato]

bfato

Oh to be 20 again, no I'm a long way from that mortgage worry free age,30 years in aviation at the sharp end and in both camps qualifies me to have my own views I think,and I thought I'd turned into a grumpy old man.Aviation used to be such a pleasant place to be how it's changed.I guess I'm just [icon]


Fair do's.

For what it's worth, I've found aviation a very pleasant place so far but if I went onto pprune's airline section and started telling them bizjet crews could do their jobs better than they, I would expect to receive a less than warm welcome.

Good luck to Blink and their crews. Maybe the company actually has a strong business plan that just hasn't been given justice here but I'd feel more secure at a Phil Brockwellian operation myself.

[flynowpaylater]

For the record, and even Mr O'Leary agree's. There is no such thing as a low cost airline. low fares yes, low cost no.

So based on the fact that cessna are not offering a deal to blink that would be less than anyone else could get, and the pilots won't cost any less, nor the airport fee's etc... The only way is to squeeze more juice from orange, and have the aircraft fly more hours. If the aircraft fly more hours, then the quality of the product will be reduced. the main attraction of chartering is flexibility, which will be compromised with the increased utilisation that is required to balance the books.......or fly less hours, but put the price up......not low cost then.

Time will tell if the blink business model will be deemed a stroke of genius, or an ill-conceived vision. Either way, 2+2 will always equal 4. If it adds up to anything else, go do your sums again.

[Flintstone]

Salaries?

First couple of candidates for the Chief Pilot position were offered a basic of £55,000. :(

[pilotbear]

I remember when Stelios dreamed up Easyjet, everybody in this industry laughed and said no way would it work, no one wanted to fly cheap with no catering or M&S sandwiches. He had to get crews from abroad as no one had faith in it and now look at it. How many 'low cost' operators use this model now and are starting up all over the world. I used to fly as pax on easyjet when it first started from Luton and I did wonder sometimes if the aircraft was going to make it to the destination:eek:
It just requires a change of mind set by the 'stick in the mud' old hands who think they are special because they fly a little jet instead of a big one.
A London Cabby is the same as a RR Chauffeur..a competent professional driver.
You don't need new state of the art aircraft as long as they are safe. You need pilots that can think outside the box and want to make it work. It seems to me that too many self-centred people with no vision and big ego's get involved and just drag things down.
The 'private' jet concept is over blown, it is just an airborne taxi.
The goal is get the pax from A to B. The difficulty lies in the logistics of A/C positioning and the algorithms needed to achieve it.
Having said that, you need to value the people that make it work and that is where operators go wrong. If people feel valued, if they look forward to going to work then they work harder for less. It never ceases to amaze me how 'successful' businessmen/women cannot grasp this concept.:ugh:
I have worked for such people and it is just frustrating as hell.
Good luck Blink, choose the workforce carefully look after them and the returns will be there.:ok:

[Phil Brockwell]

Pilotbear,

You speak a lot of sense. In fact I think you have just described quite a few existing operators. A few years ago Netjets were feared, but for us they generated an interest in private aircraft much higher than they could supply, and the rest of us mopped up the excess, hopefully blink will be the same, with a big marketing budget and limited operational ability in terms of payload / range it all sounds good to me.

Phil

[sispanys ria]

Pilotbear, you're right from A to Z :D

[blablablafly]

choose the workforce carefully look after them and the returns will be there.:ok: in case of Blinck this contradicts with First couple of candidates for the Chief Pilot position were offered a basic of £55,000. :( In another words: it will be a nice flying club :cool:

[Highflight420]

pilotbear,

The most sensible and intuative post so far,I agree 100%. It never fails to amaze me how employers treat one of their most important assets with often blatant disregard and why perhaps Pilots are not always the most loyal part of the workforce.

I would imagine the Blink team are well aware of where differences can be made in the style of operation

There is more you can offer in an employment package besides cold hard cash.

With regards the aircraft and it's limitations these are well known,I've read several different reviews of the aircraft and all bar none have been nothing less than very favourable,one quote from Pilot magazine this month, 'to compare the Cessna Mustang with the previous CJ series is like comparing the Airbus 320 with a Boeing 737'

[blablablafly]

There is more you can offer in an employment package besides cold hard cash.
Like the stability of a start up!! :D

[Highflight420]

Blablablafly

What a thoroughly inspiring individual you are,I'm guessing your a glass half empty individual:(thank god all those new pilots coming through the system don't have to rely on you for new jobs creation.

Your mention of the word stability seems to suggest that risk isn't for you,as I said before that's why your up front driving and not sat down the back knocking back the bubbly.If your in corporate aviation haven't you like me ever looked at some of the so called financial elite and wondered how on earth they made their fortunes when some of them can't even tie their own shoelaces,the difference is simple they took the risk and dared to dream,the likes of you and I figure the risk isn't worth upsetting our comfortable lives for and therefore end up driving them around.

Every company had to have the start up phase.An employment package can include share options:ok:,generous leave allowances:ok: and many other methods of attracting new employees besides just a straight salary.One only has to look at the success of John Lewis as a company to see why employee ownership has it's advantages.

I sincerely hope Blink are a runaway success:D and I look forward to seeing their planned large fleet all around Europe in the next four years.

[Phil Brockwell]

Leave the risk takers in the back I say, I think the prerequisite for a pilot is low affinity to risk (after they have punted for the license that is).

I see POGO have realised that in the current market raising finance for their purchase programme is inappropriate, and Bob Crandall should know his stuff. Lets hope the UK economy is not following the same route.

[blablablafly]

Blablablafly

What a thoroughly inspiring individual you are,I'm guessing your a glass half empty individual:( Thank you :ok:, they call it experience in a world were we have the Greggairs, 24/7, Club328 etcetc failing every few months after having started with: "we will add more aircraft as fast as we can because everything is great" or the "we will change the industry" call. The list is endless and the pr when they start priceless :)

thank god all those new pilots coming through the system don't have to rely on you for new jobs creation. The getting in bit is not so much a worry, the getting out when it fails does worry me.....

Your mention of the word stability seems to suggest that risk isn't for you,as I said before that's why your up front driving and not sat down the back knocking back the bubbly. hahaha, how off the mark you can be! But hey your the one dreaming, not me

If your in corporate aviation haven't you like me ever looked at some of the so called financial elite and wondered how on earth they made their fortunes when some of them can't even tie their own shoelaces,the difference is simple they took the risk and dared to dream,the likes of you and I figure the risk isn't worth upsetting our comfortable lives for and therefore end up driving them around.
It is better than that: we get people who cannot tie their own shoelaces, make a sh!t load of money and than think: we know it better than everybody else who has been there for years and make money in Aviation. It generally goes downhill from there..... I have worked for them in startups in both Corporate and "normal" aviation and have seen them fail more often than you have been posting! It is great, like watching a accident waiting tio happen. In the mean time please DO invest YOUR money while I be a bit negative :8

[Highflight420]

Anybody with any business accumen knows that very often the time to strike is when everbody else isn't.

You don't think property millionaires built their property empires at the top of a cycle.

Blink have already raised the finance for the first few years of operation. 2009/10 are being slated in as years of significant growth again,if that's the case you need to be in a position to compete to be up and running not looking to raise finance and order aircraft.

Phil are you a businessman,pilot or both,if both I never thought that the two went together very naturally and you haven't said anything to make me change my view.Picking up business on the tailcoat of others(your reference to Netjets) isn't a recipe for good business practice.Think I'd much rather have two business background Harvard graduates with a bible thick business plan and an order/options for 45 aircraft from the Cessna factory.:)

Don't doubt Bob Crandall as I know his background but tell me if I'm wrong in that POGO weren't planning to launch until late 2008 early 2009.Additionally the USA is in recession and has several already established Air-taxi companies, Europe as yet hasn't isn't in a recession to my knowledge, but then what would I know I just fly them.

[Phil Brockwell]

highflight,

You will never understand my point of view, I certainly will never understand yours. Who knows....who cares.

Best of luck on whatever planet you choose to settle on.

Phil

[Highflight420]

Don't be like that Phil it's only a spirited exchange of views.

I'm quite happy here on mother Earth but thanks for the good wishes anyway:)

[flynowpaylater]

Phil, I have a great business plan - I think I can get city finance...

It's called "the wheel" - You take 4 "wheels" and put them on a crate, then you can move the crate at great speed. Do you think it will catch on? :ugh:

[sispanys ria]

Flynowpaylater, I'm sure you could make a lot of money by contacting directly the Blink chaps in order to warn them about what you know. Thanks to you they may save time and money, and would definitely be glad to reward you.

A smart man like you should seek for a decent aviation consultant position, or maybe you give a try to the astrology.

[Flintstone]

I would imagine that Blink would have had to sweeten the pill and increase their salary scale(s) and I've no doubt that the CP and other captains are of high calibre.

The thing that (still) worries me is that they are allegedly all retiring BA/Cathay type captains who will be flying with low time (read, 'minimum hours') co-pilots. Not a good mix.

[Phil Brockwell]

Now now Flynow, don't go reinventing the wheel.
Kaaa-tishhhh
Thank you very much I'm here all week.

[sispanys ria]

Low time copilot ? The mustang is single pilot certified, so where do you think co-pilots can learn their job ???? :*

[Flintstone]

so where do you think co-pilots can learn their job ????

I believe there are other types of aircraft in addition to the Mustang.



It is accepted wisdom in CRM-land that steep command gradients are not a good thing. On a type new to both crewmembers the situation can be exacerbated.

[Nearly There]

The cockpit gradient was very much emphasised during my MCC, hopefully with good MCC, CRM training and good SOPs this is something that will be on the decline as new generations come through the ranks.

I can here the instructors voice now "don't be ignored"

Caught a glimpse of the Mustang review in this months Pilot mag, simple to fly and operate, ergonomically perfect, and could be flown by a competent PPL by all accounts..:ok:

[Flintstone]

could be flown by a competent PPL by all accounts..

Now you've gone and done it, given the beancounters ideas.:rolleyes:

[Phil Brockwell]

To be honest,

I don't think it is such an awful idea, we have all seen Captains move from Bizjet, t'prop to airline, and the other way. There are some who can make the transition. Bear in mind I'm sure that the interview will be based not on hours and experience exclusively.

I think the learning process of reinventing the wheel will be the hard part of this plan, I can't help thinking the use of all the capital raised would be better spent acquiring existing operators with existing fleet / management (profit)contracts / aoc etc, defracturing (is that a word?) the market and generating extra profits by the economies of scale of a single fuel purchase account, single Ops base and the other bits that reduce the threats to an AOC holder like TRTO, Maintenance and suitably qualified CP's.

Phil

[Highflight420]

Flintstone,

With respect what a load of utter tosh,high time Captains,low time co-pilots bad mix.CRM isn't something new it's been here in one form or another ever since man got up onto two legs,it's just been given a fancy name recently that's all.

Are you telling me all high time BA/Cathay captains shouldn't be flying with new copilots?who are the new pilots supposed to glean their experience from.I've flown with some wonderful former airline Captains all gentlemen to a tee and great pleasure to fly with and talk to.I've seen more ego per gold stripe in corporate aviation than I have ever seen in any airline I've flown for,guess it must be to do with all those important people and film stars we fly around!!!!!!!!!!!:yuk:

I'm a high time Captain and I'm quite happy flying with new guys and girls and if I can pass on some experience then all the better,I can learn from them too.

I'm getting on in years but some of you need to come out of the dark ages,after all it's only a job operating a machine from A-B not rocket science.

Lets face it a Boeing 747 could be flown by an experienced PPL with the right training so lets not go down the 'my one is bigger than yours' path.I thought that had all been left behind years ago at school.If you have a problem with size:O medical science has all sorts of fixes these days:ooh: well all but small man syndrome, if you have that then I'm afraid not even medical science can fix that.:)

[flynowpaylater]

Highflight - your best post yet. :O. Not only true, but witty as well.

Re Blink, good luck with it, sincerely. I hope that they prove us wrong, as it will only enhance our industry if it succeeds. On the flip side, if the money will effectively be spent on buying market share, by selling at a loss, this will have a negative effect, and therefore quite rightly, people within the industry are concerned. Anyone can sell a pounds worth of fivers, and by doing so, damage the industry whilst they are doing this.

[CABUS]

The thing that (still) worries me is that they are allegedly all retiring BA/Cathay type captains who will be flying with low time (read, 'minimum hours') co-pilots. Not a good mix.

I think you will all find that it was BA that invented the CRM and MCC course and it has caught on throught the industry and now become mandatory. So I am sure the BA pilots will be better than most others at passing on experience while working with low houred F/O's.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Cabus

Actually the opposite, BA have not taken on any "Cadets" for many years, If I recall correctly they may have started in the last 12 months or so recruiting newbies. They will not however be online just yet and they will certainly be getting nowhere near a 747.

Direct entry F/O's on nearly all fleets for BA need 2000 hours with 1000 Jet hours.

If you want captains who deal with inexperienced Fo's then somewhere like Ryanair would be your better port of call not BA/Cathay. Ironic as it may be that many pilots are looking to leave places like ezy and FR to take the paycut at BA to get away from the "Cadet" culture.

In addition Cabus, all large carriers have training departments and I would imagine that BA's is probably one of the best (if not THE best) and you are no doubt correct about the pioneering work they and other legacy carriers did regarding CRM. But to have somebody pontificate on here about crap corporate safety standards and how the airlines have got it right all these years and then describe as utter tosh that there is a problem with a steep cockpit gradient is utter madness.

Which one is it?

And with regards the opinion that all pilots can do the corporate job without any problems, then everybody is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is not that the aircraft is going to do some great lomecovak into Leicester square like some would suggest that this is where my opinion lies. Of course an experienced BA/CATHAY/QUANTAS widebody pilot will be able to get in the bloody thing and get from A-B without any problem.

My issue is with the finer points of corporate aviation of which these pilots will not have had any exposure of... if ever....if not for a very long time.

I have no doubt that these skills will be aquired very quickly but will there be issues with passenger inconvenience and this so called higher plain of existence (known as airline safety) that highflight pontificates over in the meantime.

Highflight have you just discovered smilies???

Heres about the only one you havn't used yet :confused: its called confused - ironic that

[Flintstone]

....what a load of utter tosh....some of you need to come out of the dark ages.......well all but small man syndrome, if you have that then I'm afraid not even medical science can fix that.

Speaks volumes and kind of makes my point for me. Never mind, FNPL loves you. Oh, hang on. He's not a pilot so has no first hand experience on the subject other than from watching from his office chair (previous threads passim).

Can you honestly not see the potential for problems here? New FO's, eager to please, reluctant to speak up. If I have to spell it out at this level I'm wasting my pixels.

[CABUS]

I have aquaintances who are flying online for BA as cadets at the moment so and I dont see what difference it makes about what aircraft they are flying 74 or A319. All the fleets will have experienced 'old boy' Captains on so cadets will be flying with experienced pilots high hours pilots on the entry fleets. All I am saying is surely the company that invented CRM will be good at training it and the pilots will be excellent at implementing it, this comment is purely addressed at people who seem to think BA pilot will be unable to fly with low hour F/O's in a company such a Blink.

[Flintstone]

Nobody said they would be "unable".

[Nearly There]

Pablo Mason test driving the Mustang on youtube below..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dw_3mXADMY

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Cabus

I have aquaintances who are flying online for BA as cadets at the moment so and I dont see what difference it makes about what aircraft they are flying 74 or A319. All the fleets will have experienced 'old boy' Captains on so cadets will be flying with experienced pilots high hours pilots on the entry fleets. All I am saying is surely the company that invented CRM will be good at training it and the pilots will be excellent at implementing it,

Suggest you reread your MCC notes mate, the above is full of assumptions based on aquaintances and hearsay. BA DOES NOT have a cadet culture.

PS BA did not invent CRM, the phrase was coined by the American Airlines Training department and adopted by other carriers because it was hip and gucci at that time, American had an awful record for hull losses and incidents and turned it around in a rather spectacular fashion and now have one of the most succesful Training Departments Worldwide.

American also invented Threat Error Management which will no doubt either will have or be on a CRM refresher coming your way soon

A steep gradient is not good period.

this comment is purely addressed at people who seem to think BA pilot will be unable to fly with low hour F/O's in a company such a Blink.

Who said unable?

When considering these CRM issues consdier the lowest common denominator dont think "Old Boy" think "Old Git" now how safe is the operation? Especially when strictly speaking the unwritten word is that (setting the ops manual to one side) its a single crew type.

I can here the words now from a Crusty Ex Fast Jet CAA FOI regarding co pilots I had on a recurrent once "Copilots Blah - pound for pound I'd rather have the fuel"

This whole CRM sub discussion is acedemic anyway, these are single pilot aircraft with single pilot type ratings, personally I dont think 250hour guys will cut the type rating, its ok getting signed off to sit next to somebody but the Flightsafety guys want 1000hrs plus before comencing a jet type and wont give these ratings away. If it starts to happen I'll be disgusted and shall be on the phone personally cancelling my full service contract

[Highflight420]

G-SPOTS

Finer points of corporate aviation!!,what carrying bags,loading bags,hoovering and polishing the interior,collecting the trash,filling my own loadsheet,collecting my own weather,paying the landing fees,talking to the passengers,flying into tricky airfields at night in foul weather etc etc,I did it all in the airline world we weren't that closetted.

I maintain there is bugger all difference between the two camps just those who would like to think so.

The reason I have posted at all on here is because I think any new company and the people sticking their necks out to start it, should be applauded and I get heartily sickened by armchair businessmen calling themselves pilots pontificating on why it won't work,why not wish them well and hope it does.If they achieve their planned 45 aircraft and assuming two crews per aircraft that is 180 new pilot jobs over the next four years:D what's bad about that.If it fails some people will end up with a paid Mustang rating,looks bloody good fun to me.:)

I repeat CRM wasn't invented by the Americans or anyone else, it's in all of us to a greater or lesser degree and has been since the begining of time.eg "by all means you eat that Mammoth and I'll catch the next one that comes along old boy" ie manners ,empathy,the ability to listen,to give commands to include other people in decision making etc etc etc in otherwords what makes most of us decent human beings,don't make out it's anything much more than that,it's just been given that fancy title and applied to the aviation environment.

Regarding the rating I think your just plain wrong,don't see with the right training why a 250 hour pilot shouldn't sail through.I guess you had better start throwing your toys out of the cockpit and get your complaints in early.

[CABUS]

I say about the CRM as I clearly remember my father having to attend a course on CRM back in the early 90's when you are right, CRM was the new buzz word. I may be wrong about the CRM being invented by BA but this is only what I am sure I have read in the old BA manuals while trying to revise for interviews. It may well be incorrect, or more likely, I may have read it incorrectly for which I can only apologise and but we are missing the point. I was saying that is is stupid for people to think that experience BA, or any other legacy carriers,Captains would be not as good as Captains from other airlines at flying with low houred F/O's. Is that worded better?:sad:

With regards to cadets lets just agree to disagree.

I have got to say that aircraft looks great fun but I must agree I cant imagine the TR being unmanageable but we will have to wait and see.

[African Drunk]

The type rating for single pilot ac can be done as multi crew with Flight safety with less than 1000hrs.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Highflight

Ok lets put this naysayer bs to bed

From me on page 1

Sincerely wish you all the best with it though, I'm sure it will be a great success

From you

I repeat CRM wasn't invented by the Americans or anyone else, it's in all of us to a greater or lesser degree and has been since the begining of time.eg "by all means you eat that Mammoth and I'll catch the next one that comes along old boy" ie manners ,empathy,the ability to listen,to give commands to include other people in decision making etc etc etc in otherwords what makes most of us decent human beings,don't make out it's anything much more than that,it's just been given that fancy title and applied to the aviation environment.

I agree and think you are right.

Regarding the rating I think your just plain wrong,don't see with the right training why a 250 hour pilot shouldn't sail through.I guess you had better start throwing your toys out of the cockpit and get your complaints in early.

We'll see, having actually sat in the bloody thing at wichita and done some base training with one of the instructors, there is a common theme emerging.

That being that experienced multi pilot types are getting caught out by this thing and themselves are surprised by "this little jet" not saying that people arn't getting through, just that its a little more of a handful than its size or designator (C510) would make people think.

Said instructor also told me that the unofficial designator for the program "is the yard dart" whatever that means

Single pilot Jet flying in the USA is very heavily regulated and checking is fairly fierce, this is why the FAA have instigated a three tier type rating for this aircraft you are either single crew, mentored or co pilot only.

This was at flightsafety and cessnas behest to stop them having to chop owner flyers

Last time I looked JAR did not make this provision so if you think that these 180 - 250hr guys are going to come out of a Seneca and pass a sporty single pilot jet type in the USA with USA instructors and checkers then think again.

I hope the 200hr FO is not in your bible thick business plan.

Cabus

but I must agree I cant imagine the TR being unmanageable but we will have to wait and see

Having read your previous posts and with all due respect for your opinion have you got a type rating or any two crew experience?

Oh and highflight

Finer points of corporate aviation!!,what carrying bags,loading bags,hoovering and polishing the interior,collecting the trash,filling my own loadsheet,collecting my own weather,paying the landing fees,talking to the passengers,flying into tricky airfields at night in foul weather etc etc,I did it all in the airline world we weren't that closetted.

Brilliant! :ok::ok::ok::ok::mad:

[Flintstone]

Said instructor also told me that the unofficial designator for the program "is the yard dart" whatever that means...




GSPOTS. Yard (lawn) darts.


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:2SlxjkHKkkp6JM: http://mowabb.com/aimages/images/07-06-04.jpg


I had a similar conversation with instructors at a FSI centre only last week. Some of them are seriously worried at the prospect of these aircraft being punted around by owner/pilots and think they are being underestimated by those who think they can pretty much FUFO*.

Interesting times ahead.







*Shortest mnemonic/checklist ever. FUFO='Fire Up, F#ck Off'.

[CABUS]

Gspots- your totally correct with you assumption that I have minimal multi crew experience, enough to have delt with a mayday into LPL but that was on my second day. Still a minimal amount but I have worked in the industry for five years before even I started flying.

I totally agree with Flintstone, the a/c flown by single owner pilots is quite worrying but I am sure with experienced multi crew ops things should be better.

[CaptainProp]

Highflight - There is a bit of a difference between a 2-250 hr FO and a BA/Cathay FO, more precisely about 2-4000 hrs difference, previous jet experience and in many cases previous jet and/or turbo prop command time.

I am not saying that someone is right or wrong here, but I don't think you can compare the two cases.....

CP

[His dudeness]

I remember flying a freelance trip with Citation II with roughly 150hrs under the belt as total Jet time. My Copilot was on his FIRST trip after the SIM. We went EDDS-EGLL-LFPG-EDDS.
This trip was a nightmare. The guy was just good to handle the coffee bin. So it was me going basicallly SH into Heathrow, for the first time btw.
But within a few hours he turned in a capable, good F/O.
That is the routine we all went through and I don´t think that this is different in Blink or any other new startup company. I never flew the 510 but I do have some 2000rs C525/525A and I don´t think the Mustang is very different in its flying characteristics. The 525 is easy to fly. The Garmin 1000 is easy to handle.
If they really stick with experienced Captains (get them is the prob!) then I wouldn´t worry about that. The CRM "problem" is a laugh. Many airlines had 250hrs cos and there was/is no prob.
Real question is: can they be cheaper or so much better that they can attract the amount of customers they need.
If so, they have every right and cause to be in the market, if not...

[Flintstone]

I'm surprised that anyone might not see the command gradient as not being a (potential) problem.

The difference between airline ops and small aircraft of course is that one has room for a SFO or other supplementary crew during a trainee's first few sectors and the other doesn't. Line flying in airlines can be more 'by the numbers' and therefore easier to pick up in the early days. Put these two together and it's easy to see how 200 hour FO's will struggle.

[Nearly There]

Any news folks? as ops where meant to start this month, all seems quite on the Blink website and here..have any A/C arrived as yet and have they started operations yet?

[eglk01]

Yes GFBLK Arrived Blackbushe sunday,very nice looking,its over at farnborough at the moment.

regards

j.

[x933]

Same aircraft was on the Pan at EGLF Weds, looked like an official launch type thing. Lots of people having pictures taken with the aircraft.

[robash]

on GINFO, TAG are down as the registered owners of G-FBLK, I thought they were only managing/operating the aircraft which was owned by Blink??

Profuse apologies if I have missed something on this thread or elsewhere.

[Gulf4uk]

HI

Taken by a Blackbushe Mate of mine at the Bushe

http://kensphotos.photoblog.org.uk/p50350953.html


Tony

[Nearly There]

Thanks for that, photo looks good, and thats the Blink logo on the front so dont understand the TAG bit on GINFO, TAGs AOC I believe but would have thought ownership was Blink.

looked like an official launch type thing.

Would have expected a bit more fireworks, lights, champers and/or something on there home homepage at least if it was a launch.

Good luck all:D

[eglk01]

hi all aircraft is back at Blackbushe,will dep sunday for EBACE In Geneva,
where it should be on static display!.

see some of you out there next week
cheers
J.

[Highflight420]

Just for info, Blink passed it's CAA approval flight last week and will now be able to open it's doors for business under TAG's AOC.

Three more aircraft due for delivery this year and 12 more pilot to recruit.

[charterguy]

This is getting boring.

Like so many times before, the guys behind blink woke up in the middle of night with a hard on for aviation. Have you ever wondered why so many people make their millions in their forties and fifties ? It's called experience, but there are no guarantees. LH woke up in the middle of the night and dreamt up Silverjet, and see what happened to him. All these people are good at is writing business plans designed to suck in unsuspecting investors. It's the investors who will ultimatley lose money. If you want respect, put up your own money ! Haven't got any ? Go get a job - earn some, then risk your own money.

As someone said earlier, it's going to be over - in a BLINK. :ugh:

CG

[Iver]

How many pilot have already been hired for Blink? Are all based at Farnborough or will there be other bases?

[McDoo]

This will doubtless affect more operators than just Blink but under the new EASA rules, the use of host AOCs for start up companies will not be permitted. Someone's got their work cut out.....

[No RYR for me]

Charterguy: :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Priceless, so true! ;)

[plinkton]

charterguy: This is getting boring.

Like so many times before, the guys behind blink woke up in the middle of night with a hard on for aviation. Have you ever wondered why so many people make their millions in their forties and fifties ? It's called experience, but there are no guarantees. LH woke up in the middle of the night and dreamt up Silverjet, and see what happened to him. All these people are good at is writing business plans designed to suck in unsuspecting investors. It's the investors who will ultimatley lose money. If you want respect, put up your own money ! Haven't got any ? Go get a job - earn some, then risk your own money.

As someone said earlier, it's going to be over - in a BLINK. :ugh:

I'm curious as to the success of big start-ups compared to smaller 'grown' businesses, there must be less risk with a business that is grown from nothing. Even G**d A*R started smallish before they got their 'special funding'.

Can anyone tell me the success / failure rates for the two types?

[No RYR for me]

Plinkton: the easiest research is trying to see who is succesfull and why.

The answer is most succesfull ones are companies that manages third party aircraft and charter them out from time to time but who do not have to survive on charter income alone. :hmm:

[charterguy]

Plinkton


Even G**d A*R started smallish before they got their 'special funding'.

‘Special funding’ it was too :} Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t they make their millions selling inflatable dolls, d1ldos and naughty underwear?
Since the advent of the internet, selling the above range of goods has probably become less profitable. I wonder if that prompted the sale of the business to AP?

Anyway, was it a business or merely a list of customers? The business does not own any of the jets - merely manages them on behalf of their owners. :D

[robash]

G-FBLK is still on G-INFO as being owned by TAG, so do TAG have more to do with Blink than just operating the aircraft?

[Phil Brockwell]

Robash,

G-INFO shows the aircraft status as Chartered by Tag, no owned.

Phil

[robash]

Phil - I am like a man in orthopedic shoes...I stand corrected....

I'm not a G-INFO expert so does this mean that they simply charter the aircraft for Blink or is there more to it than that?

[Phil Brockwell]

Tag are the operator of the aircraft, blink are an umbrella operation on Tag AOC. In effect Blink sell a job, TAG operate it for them, no accountability or responsibility, you didn't know you could outsource accountability?:ugh:

[robash]

Thanks Phil.....

[cldrvr]

robash, G-info shows the registrar of the aircraft not the owner. At TAG it is common practise to always register their managed aircraft in TAG's name. If you look on the C of R it clearly states that it is a registration document and does not warrant ownership.

[Highflight420]

Blink find the work and operate their aircraft with Blink flight crews under TAGs' AOC,apart from OPS, TAG have no daily involvement with the operation of G-FBLK.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight,

Blink are not allowed to operate their aircraft and crews, they do not have a license to do so. Tag have to have operational control of aircraft and crews, it's the law.

A lack of accountability from the guys making the financial decisions is an airline I would not put my kids on.

Phil

[flynowpaylater]

It still amazes me that with all this investment that Blink have reportedly made in this start up, that 100-150k wasn't allocated to obtaining an AOC. That's normally the first thing on the shopping list.

How many A/C are they actually operating now, and how many were proposed to be operating by this time? Are they running in line with the business plan?

[Phil Brockwell]

Flynow,

It's pretty common for a start-up with no money, it only seems odd because of the level of funding they have taken. Reality is they raised 30 million to buy over 100 million to buy a heavilly depreciating asset (in comparison to traditional charter aircraft which are normally second hand) there is not much left in the pot

Phil

[Daifly]

Is the Mustang now on TAG's AOC? It's just it doesn't appear on the latest listing from the CAA (though this dated 9th June, but according to an earlier post it was issued on the 31st May) and I've just been speaking to someone who flew in it last month.

Curious, that's all.

[Phil Brockwell]

Dai,

Did the punter pay? surely not?

Phil

[flynowpaylater]

Phil,

Last month was June, not May....or is it still May in the west country?

[Phil Brockwell]

We don't use your newfangled calendar down here, if the Druid calendar was good enough then, it's good enough now.

[Daifly]

My question was a simple one: Is it on the AOC now? :rolleyes:

[Iver]

Sorry not up to date but how many Mustangs do Blink currently operate? What is roll-out rate? Any idea if plans for bases other than Farnborough in near future?

[robash]

they currently have 1

[flynowpaylater]

According to their web page, they have 45 A/C on order. According to previous posts they already have quite a few crew......and one A/C.

Are more A/C imminent do we know?

[Highflight420]

One aircraft to date and three more in October,November.

Wasn't aware the Mustang was a heavily depreciating asset,quite the opposite at the moment I would have thought with so many on order,or have I misunderstood you Phil.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight,

Let's see in a few years, obviously with it being a new aircraft no-one really knows. But traditionally brand new aircraft depreciate more in the first 5 years than 10 year old aircraft.

Phil

[flynowpaylater]

So what's going to happen to the other 42 aircraft on order then?
Sounds to me that there is not much substance to the business plan.

[Phil Brockwell]

Flynow,

I think the one thing that Blink does have is a plan. It just remains to be seen if the market research reflects what actually happens at the booking stage. The main question most people have is over the volume of the business and the competitiveness(sp) of the Mustang over other aircraft already in the market.

Just because the plan hasn't been splashed all over here doesn't mean there isn't one.

Phil

[flynowpaylater]

Disn't suggest that they didn't have a BP, just that it seems to based on a hugely optimistic uptake, and not really in tune with the current economic climate. All the economic indicators have been there for a while, such as the housing market, rising fuel prices, Northern Rock etc...

If they can't make it work with a smaller fleet, with less uptake, then I would suggest they are heading for a fall.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

C510s currently making $250k over list, if Blink have deposited these aircraft individually then thats 6 million quid (assuming it carrys on that way) to take the commercial pressure away. Mustang doesn't really have a EU rival price wise so despite northern rock + house prices its still the only business jet to buy for the price that does what it says on the side of the tin. Eclipse I believe has made progress towards being able to fly in clouds buts its still not fully certified and a congressman has apparently taken it on himself to pursue Eclipse and the FAA and the test pilots for FAA certifying it in the first place......:ooh:

The alternative being an out of warranty Bravo or CJ, ultimately more capable and faster but slightly rich people would tend to buy new and put up with its shortcomings and lower running costs.

[Phil Brockwell]

G-SPOT,

You're talking from an owner perspective, not a charter client perspective. The million dollar question is, would the charter clients rather pay for a CJ at CJ market rate, or a Mustang at Mustang market rate. The answer is obviously some for the CJ, some for the Mustang.

The thing I don't get is how Blink can possibly hope to make money at the rates published on the website. Anyone can sell a tenners worth of fivers, but can you make money doing so....or have I missed the Blink trick on this one.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Sorry Phil should have been clearer

Really trying to make the point about the mustang being good news from a outright sales point of view and far from a depreciating asset. Should Blink decide to scale down the business plan and say take one in 2 and sell the other then we will never know about it on here (if they have any sense), outwardly it will look as though they are experiencing delivery delays or indeed (less likely) delaying takeup. As the whole business plan (DayJet, Blink and other VLJ startups) is based on upbeat bull**** I doubt very much they would admit to scaling back at all.

The point being is that should they decide to scale things back by quietly selling 1/2 their options they have a £3mill cushion with which to see them through the next 2/3 years at least before the city investors start to squirm from cheek to cheek.

If Blink as is, was Blink as was 3 years ago, I think it would have been a resounding success, but I thinks its going to be just too hard for them to reach a sort of critical mass for them to get a foothold on the market they and others are looking to break into.

As you know the market moves fast and I would have given them better odds back in March when this thread started than what I would give them now.

Just means you'll need to keep Barnesy flying on for another three years before laying him out to pasture........

[Phil Brockwell]

G-SPOT,

I agree that a position is itself an asset, but stops being an asset upon delivery, at that point it becomes an encumbered loss to the balance sheet, as do all aircraft, but more so new aircraft.

I don't get the way the model works, but will happilly copy it if it does, and with the experience I have in my boardroom I think we'd do a pretty good job of playing with other peoples money.

Phil

[Highflight420]

Phil,

Who knows where the industry will be in another two or three years,however that said the one aircraft is booked up with flights and customer reactions have been positive.

Very reliable so far with nothing having grounded it thus far and three more due for delivery towards the end of the year.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight,

I would be deeply concerned if it wasn't booked up if the prices on the website are any more than marketing puff.

Is the aircraft taking more money than it's ROCE and direct operating costs, obviously one aircraft isn't going to fund the whole operation, but it should make a decent contribution to cover depreciation, crew traing and overheads.

Phil

[No RYR for me]

How is the company that is supposed to change the world doing are they finally start to realise that they are reinventing the wheel? :confused:

[Phil Brockwell]

"The first three months have been great, the aircraft has been flying around 12h a day with quick turnarounds" says Blink co-founder and managing director Peter Leiman. "

Full article here

Blink expands with three more Cessna Citation Mustangs (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/09/18/316067/blink-expands-with-three-more-cessna-citation-mustangs.html)

It's funny, given the amount of sightings of the aircraft on the ground at base, and the lack of any photo's of it flying anywhere apart from EBACE on any of the "spotters sites", they have done incredibly well to get so many hours utilisation. I assume that a publication such as Flight Global would check that the figures are correct, and not simply marketing spin before they published?:=

Phil:E

[flynowpaylater]

Hmmmm, highly unlikely that anyone would achieve that level of utilization on a small jet. If he said 12 hours a week, that would be nearer the truth I would guess. As for Flight Global publishing these quotes ; they are only quoting what they have been told, but I guess it does mean that you can take any "facts" like this with a pinch of salt.

I would also point out that anyone can sell a handful of fivers for a quid which is what seems to be happening. Perhaps their USP is selling below operating cost?

[Phil Brockwell]

Flynow,

We were privvy to 16 different quotes from Blink that represented a typical week on our CJ's.

By the time we had added on the Landing / Handling fees the total price for the 16 flights was £119,000. The same routes on our CJ's would be £107,000 at normal pricing - less to brokers. Some routes were cheaper, but bizarrely the ones that an operator should want less.

Apart from the small percentage of clients that insist on a New airframe, there is nothing different to the current CJ market apart from excluded landing fees and a smaller cabin, payload.

It's all marketing spin, both the fundraising hype and the client facing stuff. We have had a few clients approached by them and as far as I know not lost one yet.

Phil

[Highflight420]

Phil,

You really are a miserable old bugger:* aren't you and are obviously not going to be happy until you see this company bite the dust.

Instead of spending so much time on PPRune(in itself rather worrying given the present economic climate)pontificating how Blink are managing to attract business and how it must be all smoke and mirrors, why don't you pick up the phone and give Mr Peter Leiman a ring,having met him several times you will find him a very personable chap. As far as I'm aware the company has no need to go poaching other operators clients,they have enough of their own,certainly enough to keep the one aircraft busy for the time being. I think you will find that the aircraft aren't flying 12 hours a day,more likely 6 occasionally 8 and further afield than you might have thought but that they are flying many days in the month with few positionong sectors.

Am I to believe you have a secret army of aircraft spotters and photographers touring the UK trying to discover whose aircraft are sitting on the ground and whose are flying(funny way to run a business).Why can't you just concentrate on growing your operation and be a liitle graceful to these two young men who have had the courage and determination to start a new company in a notoriously difficult industry and thereby provide employment to 14 pilots. Your ongoing sly digs do you and your company no credit whatsoever.

For what it's worth I've now been fortunate enough to fly both the Mustang and CJ1, cabin wise there isn't a lot to seperate both aircraft after all once your in your seat, you generally remain seated as you would if you were being conveyed around in a car. Cockpit wise the Mustang seems to be a bit roomier because of its lack of centre consul although in truth it must be smaller than the CJ1 cockpit. Having been spoilt by the Mustang I found the CJ1 cockpit an ergonomic nightmare,you can laugh at the Garmin avionics if you choose but they do the job very well with TCAS II soon to be introduced and a software upgrade giving an artificial terrain view on the pilot's PFDs, all very advanced for a simple little aircraft. I know that given the choice the aircraft I would prefer to fly.

PS It's not my company just fed up with all the negative attitude on PPRune. Your not all former bankers or short sellers are you? You really are a joyless bunch,thank god I don't work for you. Go and talk to Mr Brown I hear he is in need of someone to cheer him up,seems he is having a little problem with the economy.

[x933]

12hrs a day?!

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa144/Primate_bucket/I_Want_To_Believe.jpg

That's completely nuts - even with the mustangs lack of speed that's not a consistantly achieveable figure to achieve. 1.2hrs perhaps?

I'm with Phil in that besides a new aircraft (and even then it's not like there aren't enough young CJ's on the market in Europe) I really can't see any advantage to the mustang. And his own fleet is run off it's feet - can't get a CJ for love nor money out of Bristol ;-).

[No RYR for me]

LOL :ok:

12 hours per day.... even on a training aircraft we would not manage that :\ Must be a typo!

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Highflight

Whatever your thoughts on Phils personal outlook on life......

will you YES or NO put your name to the 12hr per day claim made by your company....

A simple answer for a simple question please

[bfato]

The cynic in me smells a cleverly worded press release. 12 hours a day across the whole fleet, not per aircraft?

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight.

There are few enough investors in this area of Industry. If they are duped into investing in puff and spin it gives the industry a reputation of high risk. As a pilot you condone this sort of practice in an arena that you should be looking for stability given the number of airlines throwing pilots back in the pool?

Go to Google, put in any aircraft registration and in 1 minute you have a good idea of what it has been doing, you hardly need a team of spotters.

Best of luck to these guys, but lets play with a straight bat shall we and not publish PR figures and grandiose statements that simply are not true in an effort to back up their claims that there is anything new about Blink, it's simply another entry level jet start-up.

Phil

[x933]

Bfato - to date they only have one aircraft in revenue-making service. If you can call it that...

Correct me if i'm wrong - but the last I heard was that they weren't selling to brokers. By not doing this surely your missing out on a large chunk of market and at least getting your aircraft out there more? Oh wait, 12hrs utilisation a day...obviously don't need it.

[SimonD678]

Blink are quoting to brokers but interestingly excluding landing fees......unless they are pushed and they lump on an indiscriminate amount.

[flynowpaylater]

I can't be bothered to go back through the threads, but I am sure that Blink were planning to have around 20 A/C on line by now......they have one....which DOESN'T operate 12 hours a day and when it does fly has been sold cheaper than a piston twin. And what's this quoting without landing fees? - What is the end user to go the airport office and pay this himself then?

Many of us have been in the business for long enough to know a dead duck when we see one. This one is quacking, has webbed feet, and a bill.....yeap it's a duck, and it won't quack for long.

These rather splendid young men have managed to get rather a lot of other peoples money to fund a business plan that was always destined to fail. It's people like this, and their irresponsible investors that have caused such a financial mess around the globe. It also detracts financial investors from investing in more sound operations within our industry.

Highflight, why do you feel it necessary to gush at their awesome business plan and incredible market vision when in reality they only way they will fly is at a loss. We could all do that without wasting other peoples money. Yes they have employed pilots, who no doubt funded their own training, and will soon be in the queue behind the XL pilots.

At least the economic slump should wash away some of these dreamers.

FNPL

[Phil Brockwell]

Flynow,

I think the delivery schedule is as planned, their "revolutionary" pricing is a simple future differential model as per Herb Kelleher et al. It's just a dumbed down version of what any decent commercial team do, it needs some tweaking to better reflect the relationship between fixed and variable costs, but at the moment they are too cheap on less desirable flying and too expensive on more desirable routes that afford a greater chance of backhaul opportunities. With the current model think they will be lucky to get more than 450 hours per airframe.

Don't forget they are a startup and therefore have to bed in and find the niche that they want to work in and adjust their pricing policy accordingly. Everything reaches it's equilibrium and Blink's pricing will soon be inline with everyone else as their understanding of the various market sectors grow. The problems will come if they don't adapt to a more market / cost base approach. Given the dynamism and size of the operation I'd be surpised if they don't catch on pretty quickly, it shouldn't take long before they realise that they are mimics as opposed to innovators and stop insulting the already profficient operators with their PR bluff.

Phil

[Flintstone]

Yes they have employed pilot's, who no doubt funded there own training, and will soon be in the queue behind the XL pilots.


The company paid for the type ratings. New aeroplanes generally come with the cost of these included.

[dingbat2407]

The body of negative comments being thrown around here astounds me, why in this industry nowadays have we become such a bunch of whining guys who like nothing better than to complain about the job market and how nothing is being done to help the pilots out there but at the same time bash a company looking to eventually offer hundreds of jobs. My view is that they have the correct market, with an average of just over 2 pax on a corporate jet and a sector time of between 1 -1.5 hours then the Mustang makes perfect sense, it is a much cheaper airframe to purchase and the running cost are cheaper then the other aircraft available. Just lay off the company, stop trying to shoot them before anything has even gone wrong, I will gladly hold my hands up and say I was wrong if it doesn't work out but until that time (if ever) please stop this bitching and whining which has turned PPrune from a credible source to a forum for tired pilots to moan. This was to nobody in particular, just give the start up a chance, I for one wish Blink all the best in this industry:ok:

[Phil Brockwell]

Dingbat,

If Blink have the right to publish such rubbish, don't you think we have the right to challenge it?

Phil

[dingbat2407]

That is not the point I was trying to make, that was only included in the last few posts. The point I am trying to make is that ever since this thread started people have been bashing the company, before it even started operating in many cases. A company has to start somewhere remember and it helps nobody's case to bash it straight away before its even had a chance to get it's footing.

[His dudeness]

we become such a bunch of whining guys who like nothing better than to complain about the job market and how nothing is being done to help the pilots out there but at the same time bash a company looking to eventually offer hundreds of jobs.

Never saw Phil Brockwell doing such a thing.

My view is that they have the correct market, with an average of just over 2 pax on a corporate jet and a sector time of between 1 -1.5 hours then the Mustang makes perfect sense,

If so, it will work. Allright by me. Still I have a naggin doubt, WHENEVER I see a company more or less "saying we reinvented the wheel".

There are a lot of outfits fishing in the same sea and unless the amount of passengers wishing to fly airtaxi does not rise significantly, than the hundreds of jobs will be created on one side but also be slashed on the other.

We have seen a great uprise in air charter and fleet, but I predict it wont last.

Altought as a pilot I really want it to last...

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Dingbat

Yes quite right we should wish them well and I do. I think Phil has a point though as do you. They have a credibility issue though, they are making wild claims which fly in the face of the current market/financial climate/common sense.

Its difficult to wish them well when they come out with this BS

Just for the record I do wish them all the very best, me - I'm still waiting to see how they pan out, will they start selling undelivered airframes and perhaps more importantly will I get a straightforward answer to the 12 hour utilisation question I politely posed to highflight a few days ago.

12 hour days in a citation... the bloody thing would fall to pieces. :rolleyes:

[Phil Brockwell]

If cadburys bring out a new chocolate bar, who is the innovator, Cadbury's, the sweet shop or the guy that eats one?

To be fair, I haven't seen anyone questioning JetBirds plans which seem pretty balanced and in comparison target reasonable utilisation with honesty.

There is a difference between wishing someones downfall and simply predicting it. Personally I think that Blink will do OK, but will change it's speed of expansion and price structure as we all do with the ebb and flow of demand, we're all the same really - and that's the bugbear, it's not a new industry, just a new aircraft.

Phil

[flynowpaylater]

Personally I think that Blink will do OK, but will change it's speed of expansion and price structure

But the whole business plan and huge front loaded investment is based upon the pile em high and sell em cheap model. They are achieving the latter, but clearly the uptake isn't what was expected, or they wouldn't feel the need to make such inaccurate quotes in the industry press.

Dingbat - it is unlikely that people will come on this forum to congratulate each other. That's what the BACA's for. We are all expressing our opinions. A lot of those opinions are based upon many years in the industry. If I wanted to blindly support something just because it looks good, I'll support Spurs!:ugh:

On the Blink issue though, basically I believe the concept is flawed because they seem to think that the only competition is Net Jets and Air Partner (Gold Air). The fact is that they are effectively going to have to scrap it out with the many independent biz jet and air taxi operators out there, all of whom have their own established customer base, including brokers, who in turn have their customer base.

I just can't see that they will achieve the market share they require, or indeed generate enough extra business, currently not in the charter market to make it work.

With only one type, they cannot offer customer A, (who last week had 2 pax to GVA, but now has 6 to NCE). any option. So customer retention / loyalty will be difficult.

[Phil Brockwell]

FlyNow,

If I had blindly followed the same business plan I had 5 years ago I would still have a Caravan 1 sitting in my hangar costing me a fortune. Plans change and adapt as buying trends and the company's knowledge base changes.

Do I think that Blink can find profitable business for 35 Mustangs - No. If I'm proved right they can simply roll over the mustang options into a broader fleet and adjust the plans as required. If I'm proved wrong then I've just burnt the job offer Bridge.

No-one can blame anyone for coming up with a business plan and chasing it....but I think the PR machine is working outside ethical levels of spin which is getting peoples backs up.

Phil

[V12]

flynowpaylater is right:
surely this is a one trick pony; the pony looks cute, and it does the trick just as you expect. The issue we all should debate is whether there are enough clients who are completely satisfied with that one trick.

The lesson from the industry over the longer term is that clients upgrade, migrate, and soon tire of one model. They want to go further, faster, longer, and one wonders whether Blink & co can keep enough of their clients satisfied long enough to reach breakeven (whenever that may be...!) before they tire of it.

If clients were satisfied by a one trick pony, wouldn't NetJets Europe be offering a one-type fleet today? Skyjet/VistaJet, AP, most operators, and all brokers offer clients choice across the range. In the end we all aspire to upgrade our cars, houses, class of travel, whatever, so how long before a new Mustang user today sees a CJ2 and dreams of all that space, then finds out that the price premium is negligible?

And won't the crew do the same...?

[Highflight420]

Dingbat2407,

Like you I despair of the attitude in this industry, I give up but thank my lucky stars I dont work for companies some of these people on here represent.

FlyNowPayLater,

What a miserable individual you are with a very weak grasp of the present economic situation.Thank god I'm unlikely to end up sitting with you in a cockpit assuming you actually fly for a living.
As regards aircraft deliveries no publication has ever mentioned 20 deliveries in 2008,you just need to be a little bit better read and not rely on dodgy publications for your info.

For my part and especially in light of all the negative comments on this site I wish Blink every success for a bright future.

Phil as I've said before if you spent less time on PPRune and Googling aircraft movements maybe you could be searching out that elusive finance that apparently Blink are extracting from these poor unfortunate investors. Maybe they simply put together an impressive business plan that attracted the necessary finance.

[Phil Brockwell]

Highflight,

I didn't say we are looking for elusive finance, if we wanted to make the move from Saville Row to Burtons then we would have done so by now, the business plan is already written, we just haven't decided if we have an appetite for it, our current plan is profitable, risk averse and sustainable, plus it is very rewarding to deliver a good product. I'm not sure any of us would be happier if we were much bigger or much more profitable- maybe when the time is right. it's much less PR freindly, but it does keep jobs safe and staff fulfilled and the clients seem to be quite happy too.

Thanks for your business tips on time management....most instructive,

Phil

[flynowpaylater]

Highflight, try reading all of my post, and not just the bits that upset you the most!

Like most flight crew, you assume that anyone with an informed opinion in aviation is obviously a pilot.......And we all know that to assume makes an ASS of U and ME. I come at from how good the P&L sheet looks, not how shiny the jet is.

As I said in the previous post, I couldn't be bothered to look back through the myriad of posts on this thread, and therefore by definition the figure of 20 A/C was a guess, and totally unsubstantiated. The fact remains though that the whole thing is very optimistic, and is unlikely to succeed unless, as Phil rightly points out, they adjust their business plan to be more in line with the industry. That may prove difficult given the amount of money and exposure they have already committed to.

What a miserable individual you are with a very weak grasp of the present economic situation

I'm a very jovial individual, and have a good grasp on the present economic situation. It's easy to spend other peoples money, not so easy to have to give your investors the return on investment you promised them.

[Highflight420]

Phil,

Time to call a halt to all my comments on this subject, I realise I'm begining to sound like an American evangelist:O

Suffice to say that I wish anybody and everybody and that includes you and your company Phil( I do know something of your company as I'm friends with one of your more than satisfied pilots), the very best of luck in the present difficult economic situation. Anybody who has had the guts to develop a company and thus provide jobs for the likes of me,a simple line pilot deserves my thanks and continued success.

Here endeth my rantings.

Highflight 420

[flynowpaylater]

A graceful bow indeed HighFlight. Been fun bantering. For the record, I hope that Blink do well, just think they won't.

As a pilot you hopefully you will enjoy doing the flying, and getting to play with these rather expensive toys. Good luck to you.

[Flintstone]

And we all know that to assume makes an ASS of U and ME.

Yep. Assumptions will often come back and bite you in the arse though I'm not sure the 'ME' applies here......


Yes they have employed pilot's (sic), who no doubt funded there(sic) own training...

The company paid for the type ratings.

As I said in the previous post, I couldn't be bothered to look back through the myriad of posts on this thread, and therefore by definition the figure of 20 A/C was a guess, and totally unsubstantiated.

Should have re-read the thread and not ASS U med eh? ;)

[flynowpaylater]

Thanks for the English lesson Flintstone.

One for you though....assume - to take for granted, suppose.
In writing my post, I never assumed anything, and nor should you have in reading it.
You assumed that I had assumed.

No reply required!

[Flintstone]

No reply required? Au contraire mon brave. Clearly the fault lies in my technique but as a good instructor should be able to explain a lesson in a variety of ways to accomodate even the slowest student we can go through it again. It's no bother, really.



Yes they have employed pilot's (sic), who no doubt funded there(sic) own training...

Oxford English Dictionary says:

"assume

• verb 1 accept as true without proof."

You didn't check with Blink or their pilots to obtain proof, ergo you ASSumed.



...by definition the figure of 20 A/C was a guess, and totally unsubstantiated

Oxford English Dictionary again:

"guess

• verb 1 estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct"

Sounds like more assumption to me but hey, you carry on.

[Phil Brockwell]

Ahhhh, the old Collins vs Oxford Dictionary debate old boy .....this one could run!

[flynowpaylater]

Flintstone - LOL!:D

I assume you are not a pilot as pilots are rarely that amusing. *
I guess you are not a pilot as pilots are rarely that amusing. *

* Delete as appropriate .

As Phil point's out, there is a discrepancy between Collins and Oxford on the definition of assume. Been fun, but I have work to do.

[Flintstone]

Collins Dictionary.

"assume

VB

1 to take to be true without proof"



Feel free to keep going if you want.


http://www.raincatcher.org.uk/images/kp3.jpg


I'm bored watching you dig though ;)

[Martin Barnes]

and they all lived " happy ever after"
phil one of your satisfied pilots "must be jc"

[Phil Brockwell]

No, JC has been here too long to still be satisfied, must be one of the new guys, we probably don't know his name yet!

[dingbat2407]

Just for the record Phil I was never making those comments about you in my last post, I respect your position and opinion. My comments were more broadly directed at the general feeling of bitchiness we have started to see not just on this thread but on pprune in general.

[Flintstone]

But ........... what?

Quietly peddling their wares in a calm and professional fashion as far as I can tell.

[shed loads]

Training at Cambridge last Saturday.

[tommoutrie]

They're definitely working quite a lot and I've only heard very positive feedback about their operation. I believe they either just have had or are just about to have their AOC issued (been operating under TAG's I think) and that may well be the trigger point for them to ramp up the profile. I wish them every bit of success and, if any blinks are reading this, we have a ground power unit at the bush now which you can use for a price which will be related to how desperately you need it...

Tom

[Grecian2000]

From my little experience I'd say Blink have a much higher profile than most of their competitors.

What other small jet operator has had half the column inches or quotes written about them in the quality press? Cant think of any/many at all.

Blink have clearly invested in their brand and a have a belief in the value of a new product and a high quality business model.

Profile looks good to me, I say good luck to them in the current market, our industry needs (and benefits from) people like them who are prepared to invest in quality and are prepared to innovate.

Wishing them, and every other quality operator the best of luck in these testing times.

[dingbat2407]

"Training in Cambridge"

Does this mean they have just had a type rating course go through?

[onhmss]

I hear they are looking for cp and do in one. ASAP is the requirement's timeframe. Any pprunners out there work for blink ? It would be great to get a pm and hear the facts, please. Tks.

[Highflight420]

This is a company which is indeed going about their business quietly efficiently and with an airline inspired ethos.

The three original British Airways pilots that have establised the flight Ops side of the business are quite simply outstanding in what they have achieved in such a short time added to which they are the nicest group of pilots you could hope to meet. Pilot force now exceeds 10 of which everyone of them and the growing ops department are superb individuals who are a delight to work with.

The two principal founders still incredibly young to have set up such a professional outfit continue to drive the business with incredible enthusiasm and their own vision of where it will be in the next few years.

I salute all and everyone at Blink for and incredible achievment in these very tough economic times.

[hunterboy]

I can second Highflights comments. They are a good bunch of guys. let's hope nice guys finish first.

[Highflight420]

Flatspin,

That's not for me to answer and even if I knew i wouldn't be posting on here, but there here still after 12months of operations and the aircraft are all flying so if you ask me I think there is a very good chance they are heading in the right direction.

[Phil Brockwell]

Not doing a lot of flying hours(in comparison to their published targets) if my occasional browsing of CFMU is anything to go by, but many others aren't either, but as Highflight says they are still in business, so haven't lost the 30 million they raised yet.

[flynowpaylater]

Freddy Laker was a thoroughly nice fellow, and decent chap to work for.

[V12]

Great people, and nice business plan when they launched in the good ol' days.

Not sure if it still stacks up in today's market if you just hope everyone downgrades from Netjets to Blink to save money though.

And from what their flight plans reveal, can you really make money if your core traffic just wants a 35 min flight EGLK to EGJJ or EGJB??

FLIGHT GLOBAL reports:
"The first three months have been great, the aircraft has been flying around 12h a day with quick turnarounds" says Blink co-founder and managing director Peter Leiman." and "Leiman says he is eager to take delivery of more aircraft to enable the company to build its network of destinations and deliver its low-cost air-taxi model efficiently: "Three more Mustangs will be arriving next month followed by one aircraft a month until all 45 aircraft have been handed over."

mmmm...forgive my skepticism but "flying around 12 h a day" ...?
Over the last month I believe they flew about 100 sectors on 3 Mustangs; that's an average of one sector for each Mustang a day and somehow I don't think they're averaging 4 h sectors

As for being eager for 3 more this month, well you could get 3 times the utility out of the current 3 before you needed any more; why take any more?

In the same magazine, the other UK Mustang operator seems to shed a much more realistic appraisal of the market for VLJ's today:
"We have five aircraft in the fleet and are getting 350h a year on each one," says Margetson-Rushmore, who has become increasingly sceptical of the air taxi concept. "The jury is still out on the air taxi market," he says.

"These models are based on high utilisation and low cost, but there is simply not enough business to create these operations now. Just to break even you need to be charging more than £1,100 [$1,610) per flying hour and flying more than 600h a year - these numbers can only be achieved in a very good year and even then you have the issue of seasonality."

350 h is 1h a day. That sounds more realistic and PMR talks a lot of sense.

Surely everyone wants the VLJ market to survive, in fact we want the whole industry to survive but we're all kidding ourselves if we think these huge VLJ orders are ever going to materialise at the rate they are talking about.
VLJ's have their place but so long as the operating cost is not dissimilar to the next size up, we haven't achieved any sort of radical change to the industry. Eclipse, Adams, PoGo, DayJet, One Charter, Bikk etc. all talked big in 2008 and look where they are in 2009.

As aviators, we have to do the impossible: fly high, but do so whilst keeping our feet firmly on the ground

[No RYR for me]

V12, that is the most sensible remarks I have seen about the VLJ market for a long time :ok:

[dingbat2407]

Anybody know if there are FOs being type rated at this time or if training is currently going on?

[Sir George Cayley]

Don't write Leiman and Blink off too soon. He's a clever young man and has gatherred experienced people around him. I'm sure that if they weather this financial crisis (Crisis what crisis?) Bllink will grow. Lets not talk an organisation with energy, enthusiasm and vigour downn just because it's easy.

And no, I'm not after a job with 'em.

Sir George Cayley

[eglk01]

Hi they where at EBACE,Just no aircraft apart from N826CM in there colours,
busy flying everyday which is good,very professional and slick operation,
our team here are working very hard to help them achieve that,we all wish them well,And from what i have seen im sure they will do well,Peter and his team all have the passion to succeed where others have failed,and is just what this
industry needs now more than ever.

cheers.

:)

[Flintstone]

Say again?

Readability 1.









;)

[Phil Brockwell]

He said, rather than telling all their middle managers to go on Easyjet due to the downturn, corporations will be telling it's mid-level staff to go on micro-jets. Who'd have guessed?

Credit where credit is due, in almost no time at all they have already become the busiest jet operator at Blackbushe!

:ok:

[flynowpaylater]

Phil, why so sceptical and sarcastic? These guys are at least trying to be innovative in an otherwise depressed market. I hear they are expanding fast. In fact, word on the street is that they had an enquiry from as far a feild as Guilford the other day. :}

[dingbat2407]

Why are you intent on trying to bash Blink with Sarcasm and cheap digs? grow up guys and try and wish this company success as they try with the rest of you guys to keep afloat and weather this economic downturn. All comments as I am aware from customers and partners have been nothing short of exemplory.

[dingbat2407]

Anybody heard anything more about recruitment?

[Gulfstreamaviator]

He applied for CP DFO etc, etc.
Never received a reply.

Don't get too excited.

glf

[theWings]

I'm happy to cheer on anyone launching flying machines into the sky in any 'Economic Climate'.

However, with a pile of cash secured, the temptation must be to price at a loss and so price other operators out of the market or even out of business thereby eliminating the competition. Not good for anyone in the medium to long term.

I've heard tell (this IS a rumour network) that some Blink charter quotes look very low...

Or do they just have an incredibly low cost base?

[Flintstone]

I get the impression that they are penny-wise so maybe that's the answer. Just taken delivery of their fourth aircraft I believe.

[Monkey Boy]

I've heard tell (this IS a rumour network) that some Blink charter quotes look very low...


There are plenty of European CJ operators out there much cheaper the Blink.

[shed loads]

But not as many as there were MB!

[Highflight420]

The Wings, Flintstone,

Blink are not pricing anyone out of the market or attempting to see other operators go to the wall. They have a good business plan an excellent Flight Ops and Operations Dept and are quietly going about the business of building a strong customer base of very satisfied customers.

The fourth aircraft has been in the UK for some time and has just been activated, the fifth aircraft is to be delivered shortly.

For those doomsayers amongst you this is a company that is very professionally operated with airline SOP's with an excellent Flight Ops Director and management team. It is perhaps one of the few aviation companies in Europe that is hiring aircrew at the present time. The Mustang is here to stay whether some of you like it or not, importantly the customers without exception love it, it has it's limits like any aircraft but for Blink and their long term plan it's exactly the right aircraft.

I have to admit to getting very tired with all the people on this site that just can't wait it seems, to see another British aviation company go bust.
Why not celebrate a successful start up that is now established ( Blink is a year old ) and gaining quietly a good reputation amongst it's customers, who after all are the most important people with regard to a companies success.

Whilst going out on a bit of a limb I think this company is here for the long haul and long may it thrive. Good luck to all concerned.

[Flintstone]

Highflight.

If you re-read my last post you'll notice that I said they were penny-wise. I'm not quite sure how that transforms into anything negative.

It's generally good form to read the whole thread before pitching into someone. Post #2 on the first page might be a good place to start. If, after doing so, you still think I'm anti-Blink feel free to let me know why.

[weido_salt]

Oh, penny wise they maybe.

If what glf says is true, then they are pound foolish.

Any company, of any repute, will answer applicants!!

[weido_salt]

Even an auto response would be better than nothing. An auto response stating your details have been received and if your application is to be taken further they will contact you, or words to that effect. Something simple to do. Two minute job to set up actually. Common courtesy really, don't you think?

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the computer literacy skills within the outfit doesn't allow them to set up an auto reply or even reply!.

Look at it this way. If they are needing people and applicants are treated like that, how are people going to be treated when they are not needed? it is also a good indicator how employees will be treated and valued within their "organization".

[Highflight420]

Flintstone,

You have my unreserved apology I wasn't having a go at you in particular, you will probably appreciate my drift as regards negative comments though.

As to those of you who have sent in e-mail applications I will pass on your comments about not getting replies or at least not receiving an auto reply.

Blink have had many pilot applications as you might expect and with only a small team as yet, working through them takes time.

As it happens the IT department consists of one man but he is amongst the very best at what he does.

I have been in this business for over 30 years and have sent hundreds of applications over those years with very often no response, my first reaction was not to slag off the company though and make comments about how they treat their staff etc etc. As it happens it is by all accounts a very happy company to work for, peopled by staff who respect one another whatever their role.

Show a bit of initiative and find another way of getting your cv on the right persons desk or at least make your cv stand out. In my expereince the presentation and standard of English in some of these cv's has left a lot to be desired, it's important so get it right and put a little effort into the presentation.

[Pilot Positive]

Highflight,

I share your sentiments 100%...it is good to see a start up do so well. From what I hear Blink are acting as a driver of change in the industry, risky but also possibly needed and therefore justified. The long terms rewards will be indicative of their early success.

So I'm going to wish them congratulations on their first birthday and wishing them all the best for years to come... :D

[Flintstone]

Highflight. Accepted. Group hu..............well let's not go that far ;)

The point of responding to CV's is valid. I know they're busy and probably swamped but there are a number of valid reasons for at least sending a holding reply and it would be nice to see Blink doing so. I think they'll be a success but an appreciative audience always helps.

[clear prop!!!]

As a matter of interest, just how many A/C do Blink own/fly?

This is not a dig, but looks like a great smoke and mirrors PR job with few assets in the air.

Anyway, good luck to them!

[Duck Rogers]

....... just how many A/C do Blink own/fly?


The fourth aircraft has been in the UK for some time and has just been activated, the fifth aircraft is to be delivered shortly


Bizjet forum rule number 6969, para 2, sub-section B. "Anyone posting without reading a thread will be hung by the ankles and ridiculed"'


Duck :rolleyes:

[clear prop!!!]

OOPS!...painfull ankles and a feeling of ridicule!:uhoh:

[Chomeur]

I am another who applied for CP without the benefit of a reply. It was a serious application from someone with great and varied experience and it is a pure insult not to hear back. In my experience firms who treat applicants correctly are usually better run than average.

[weido_salt]

Chomeur

I sympathize with you.

NJE used to play that game. Their attitude was the result of a big dose of "hard ball" and an over dose of testosterone. "We can kick big arse" type of guys.

Now the NJE cheerleaders will argue "well we are a big company and you get this sort of thing". Not so. BA don't attract anywhere near the venomous posts that NJE have written up on this site. VS is slightly different for obvious reasons......

[S Midgeon]

The present situation is that the company has an enourmous amount of applications( over 300) to sift through and not only for pilots, and only one part time HR lady to cope.

I believe that some applications that have been submitted through agencies have had a reply to the agency.

The company has recently installed an automated reply system, which should help.

Please accept our apologies if we havent got back to you, we are working hard to resolve the situation ...even if it doesnt seem so.

[Nearly There]

I applied for a ground position last week through a well known 'aviation job search' website, and received a response almost immediately from Blink. The auto response seems to be working fine through them.

Now whether I here any further is a different matter:(

[No RYR for me]

I have been proven wrong so far with my "gone in a Blink' statement in the past but still feels the company defies the laws of economy so far... Interesting to watch :8