Finished training... Now what?

[preduk]

I've been reading these forums for about a year now, trying to make up my mind what the best route to achieve that first airline job is, and I'm struggling!

I'm looking for a bit of guidance, bit of experience and a bit of knowledge of what you believe to be the best way to get that right hand seat.

What I was planning on doing was finishing a modular course and trying to get into Ryanair for their low hour entry schemes, but after reading their contract; I have become baffeled (as an HR and Law Graduate) with the structure of their employment system and have decided to stay clear of them. (Please don't start debating the advantages and disadvantages of Ryanair, I've made my mind up :) )

So heres the scenario...

You have finished your full course and now have your fATPL (with no type rating) what do you do next? Become a flight instructor and wait for one of your many applications to be accepted or is there another way??

How did you get your first job? How long did you need to wait? And which route did you take (integrated / modular)? If you were in the same position now, what would you change?

I look forward to your responses! :D

[JB007]

I would forget the big shiny jet thing at this stage. Unless you give CTC some money, I would say these cadets will fill the recruitment gaps in the next few years. There is also still the potential for experienced/type rated pilots to join the market place as larger mergers in the UK mature.

In view of your location have you tried Loganair? It'll cost you 12k for an Saab rating, paid back to you each month with interest!

You won't regret it, best start to your flying career...or spend 6k on a FI Rating, still an approved route to a better flight deck...

But to answer your questions:


Not what you know but who!
5 months from finishing IR
Modular
Not one thing! Honestly...

[Rollerboy]

All good things come to those that wait. I commend your decision to be cautious about entering the pay for a TR gang.

May I suggest you firstly don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Try Flybe and Loganair geographically you are perfect for both. Also put in an application for the CTC ATP wings scheme and finally whilst waiting, if you can afford 6K on a FI course will help keep your hours ticking over.

All these experiences will help you build a better CV than just paying for a TR course.

It did me and I am happy.

Roller

[preduk]

JB007,

I think you hit a good point there... After I posted this topic, I had a look around all of the airlines that operate from Glasgow, Ediburgh and Prestwick (just to keep my occupied) I was only looking at the airlines that operate jets :rolleyes:

I think my fear with flying for airlines such as Flybe, Loganair, Highland Airways is being stuck on a turbo prop for the rest of my career. I really, really want to get onto the big heavys at some point.

Can I ask what your first airline was? And when you were offered the job how many hours you had? Did you have a TR?

[preduk]

I never even thought about Eastern! I seen them at Prestwick a couple of weeks ago while flying a PA28 around.

What do they usually look for while recruiting FOs? Do they pay for the TR or do you need to pay for it yourself?

[JB007]

preduk


Loganair
250 hours TT!
Nope!
Just found the "bullit" button, can you tell!!!


Nearly 3 years of best flying available in the UK! Now B757/B767...equally as exciting but for different reasons...

If you want the big jets, set yourself a timetable and career plan...2 to 3 years you'll be ready for bigger fun...

[alberto86]

preduk, why wouldn't you apply for ryanair? i still haven't heard a complaint from the guys i know and currently fly for it. it's a great chance to start your career, especially for low houred pilots.
although i think there's no contract fulfilling each of our expectations.
Ryr policy is not one of the most flexible,but as a first job ..i think it's not such a big issue.
my experience with them has been this,so far : did my cpl/ir/mep, applied to CAE webpage and ryanair scheme the following day, got a call from them 3 days after asking for my CV.Ryr called me after 4 further days.now i've got an assessment with them on the 2nd April..

you should seriously consider them

[preduk]

Hi Alberto,

You are correct, I met an ex-AAC engineer who was flying for them and had nothing but praise for them, but from a legal and HR point of view (my expertise at Uni was employment law and contract law) it's one of the worst conditions of employment I have ever read and wouldn't want to be working for them when something goes badly wrong.

The fact that you aren't really an employee, more self employed scares me as it would mean that legally you wouldn't be entitled to sick pay, union rights, freedom of opinion about the company which I don't believe is the way to treat any worker regardless of their rank. It looks great in the short term, not sure about the long term but if you disagree with me I would be more than willing to listen to your opinion and would appreciate it :)

[preduk]

STS,

Even 3-4 years isn't too bad, can I ask what airline you ended up with after Eastern?

[Callsign Kilo]

Hello mate

Saw your post and thought I'd add my two cents, especially seeing I am from the same part of the planet as yourself! I am also in a similar situation to you (albeit I've been there a bit longer :{ he he!). First of all, well done on completing your training. I felt a great sense of achievement when I had that little blue book in my hands, although I also felt a bit sad as I was leaving a fantastic FTO and a great bunch of people behind. Anyway, I digress, we are talking about the hard bit - finding that ellusive first job!

I completed my MCC in June of last year and entered the job market all guns blazing. Probably the wrong time of year to start looking, however I had already made some inroads with an airline before I finished my ME/IR, so I was happy with my progress. Luckily for me I had made contact with someone who was receptive to my desire to one day work for their operation. I was confident that it would, eventually, all pay off, but unfortunately nearly 8 months later saw a change in personnel and change in policy - bang went the job :( ho hum!

One bit of advice here is, if you pick a specific airline, badger them til you get somewhere and then start making progress; don't give up looking on other fronts. I took the foot off the gas a little and regret it. Keep all your irons hot! :ok: While you are searching, keep the flying going. I enrolled in an FIC two months after completing my initial training, and without doubt it is the best decision I have made to date. I feel very fortunate to have an instructor as good as the one who runs the course and I feel I have learned more about flying that I did during the entirety of my commercial training! Plus the FIC keeps you with the 'aviation scene.' And the 'scene' in Scotland is pretty small, so it's a definate help to your case.

I also noted that you were worried about taking the TP route. In my opinion you should actively pursue it. Flying something like a Saab 340 or a Jetstream 41 around Scotland will do wonders for your flying (and where else do you get scenery like ours?). As JB007 says, have a career plan. If the TP thing isn't your longterm goal, then try and get into it at least - don't dismiss it. Learn your trade in the RHS for 2-3 years and then move onto your Boeing or 'Bus job. These operators arn't silly, they know the majority of their FO's will want to move on. Mr 007 shows this happens!

There you go mate, my two cents. Might not be worth much, however I am quietly confident things will start happening for me soon - as I'm sure they will for you. Remember though, you have to make it happen yourself. Get out there and network, start the FIC, maybe keep up the IR currency (there is a great new sim at Dundee) and take any opportunity that comes your way.

Best of luck, CK

[SinBin]

I recently went straight into a UK LHR based Airbus job. 6 months fom finishing the IR. My background was modular part time, min hours and no TR.

Right place right time is the key! Just keep plugging away. All 4 of us on the airline's TR course had similar backgrounds and were all over 30. Some closer 40 in fact.

[preduk]

I'm very thankful to you all for the information, I appreciate it deeply.

CK,

I don't have an airline in mind at the moment, trying to keep an open mind about it, I just want to (at some point) get involved on the Airbus or Boeing aircraft.

My main concern with TP was getting stuck on them for all of my career and not being able to progress onto the heavier aircraft. Thankfully, JB007 has shown me that isn't the case.
I think flying the TP would be fantastic. It would give me a different perspective of flying within Scotland and means I could venture into the smaller airports of Scotland where the scenery is even more beautiful and the landings even more difficult!

I'm very lucky at my flying club at the moment, because my instructor is fantastic. I have nothing but praise for him, hes currently involved in developing the simulator course with Tayside so I try to pick his brains for every bit of information possible. I'm hoping to do all, if not most, of my training in Scotland so I really should pay Dundee a visit soon.

I do agree that networking is the way forward regardless of what industry. I have a while yet until I got looking for my first airline job, but I'm already planning visits to different companies to get involved with them. I was considering trying to get a job with an airline as a Customer Service or Flight Ops guy if possible.

SinBin,

Thats very encouraging to see what level you are at after doing it all modular, I'm hoping to do a similar course to yourself so thank you for that!

Thanks again

[low n' slow]

I've been on the Saab 340 now for just a bit short of 2 years now (Scandinavia and Finland) and I've found various positives and negatives about it.

Flyingwise it's a lot of fun. In winter we learn what ice really does to a plane and if there is terrain involved, we also get to actually calculate a PDP for drift down purposes. We fly to the smaller airports and in many cases they are not so well equipped as the larger ones. In short, we do very many non precision approaches. As long as it's a JAR25 TP, you'll be in the same game as the big boys, the only thing differing being the fact that you rarely climb above FL200 and that things generally happen much slower which can be an advantage for a beginner.
Having props though, still makes things interesting in the sim... (find the SAS Dash 8 incident report where the commander failed to do the correct actions during a prop overspeed, SK179 I believe into Kalmar, Sweden).

The downside is that you don't get jet-time and you don't have a 737 or A320 TR. The guys starting out at FR will keep a higher pace regarding flight-time income and when they want to go for the other job, they are the most likely candidates, blocking for us TP folk trying to get that long waited for jet-job. Hours and experience doesn't seem to count for much anymore. Recently a 737 operator in my area had a batch of interviews and I'd applied. As it turned out, the most part of the applicants were fresh out of school (200 hrs TT) with a fresh 737 TR. I wasn't invited and still I have about two years on the Saab and it's a real shame that the employers seem to value a TR more highly than actual flight experience. This has led me to belive that it may indeed be very difficult to make the step from TP to Jet, but then again, that might just be my own experience tainted by bad luck. What I'm trying to say is really think over what your options will be a few years ahead. Starting out on a Jet might be the better choice if you gauge career progression by MTOM...

Hope my confused comments helped.
/LnS

[MIKECR]

preduk,

I took from your original post that you had already finished your training and were now actively seeking employment. I gather from your later posts however that you arent? In any case, my advice would be to consider ANY job!!! The market is constantly changing and you need to be prepared to adapt and accept whatever comes your way(assuming something does come!). Once you have that magic unforzen atpl or at least a few hundred hours multicrew time then perhaps you can start being a bit more selective. Like callsignkilo, who i did my atpl's with, we have both been job hunting for nearly a year and have found nothing. I am scottish based and have for obvious reasons bombarded the likes of Logan, Highalnd, Eastern etc and had no joy. I would happily fly a shopping trolley with wings at the moment if it meant getting a job! Even on a permanent nightshift delivering mail to darkest corners of the western isles, i wouldnt care!

[preduk]

Nah... not finished my training yet just wanted to make sure I know what I'm doing for the years ahead and this was one question that was bugging me.

low n' slow,

If you were to go back before flying the SAAB would you have waited until you were offered a TR job? Is there anything you wish you had done prior to your first job?

[Callsign Kilo]

A friend of mine who flies for a well known UK charter company told me..."The only time when you have to make a decision in relation to that first job is when you have two offers!"

I can tell you now, receiving two offers at the same time would be the flying equivalent of Derby County winning the English Premiership! You will learn this when you eventually get into the position of seeking for jobs. After almost a year of nothing, flying your sister's kite in the back garden and being paid for it appears like a viable career option!

[MIKECR]

Soon Johny, soon!

[eagerbeaver1]

On the basis of what a handful of people here moan about Ryanair you are completely discounting them? I would advise against this, you must apply to everybody (within reason i.e not Virgin).

Took me years to find that elusive first job, I have been through two companies and currently work for Ryr - its ok.

good luck, you must not reduce the already tiny list of companies you are suitable for.

You never know you may be flying with me soon....

Good luck!

[preduk]

eagerbeaver1,

I'm not refusing Ryanair due to the opinions of other people, I'm basing my opinion on a background of HR and legal and as I said it's the worst contract I have ever seen. You are used as a slave more than an employee which I don't really expect from a multi million pound company like Ryanair. Them cutting corners as usual.

[fusian]

Even so, if theres no offers on the table, slave or starve? The longer your out of work and doing something else non related, the less your earning both in terms of finance and airtime - and as we all know, its the hours that predominantly count in applying for positions, no hours, no qualifying application - no interview, simple...

I hear RyanAir aren't actually that bad to work for and although they may work you hard, the hours start to rack up, as does the type rating, the contacts and of course, your in the air!

If you umming and erring on the basis of an assumed contract then your likely to be waiting a lot longer for a job, airlines like BA and Virgin aren't simply going to say, oh we need an FO, will you fly for us... It's so much easier to get a job when you already have one, and this applies in all walks of life! You only have to do something special, an amazing landing in difficult conditions, save the company some money etc and your name will travel through the airport and to other airlines quicker than you can blink, gives you a career development point also and makes you a standout :) Then when you come to applying again, low and behold you've got a better chance :)

As for me, well i'm still training, but one day hope to be sat to your right in the bus!