Unpredictable DGCA

[flightknight]

How many pilots are going to be affected ?. Are the valuable and experienced expat pilots going to be affected?. Any other grapewine info would be appreciated. :confused:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Pilots_with_foreign_radio_licences_risk_being_grounded/articleshow/2823867.cms

[Microlightlover]

Is very dificult that you can find more stupid people in this world than the indian autorities, especially in the DGCA. Only God knows how many millions a month this collection of racing horses cost to the private airlines in India that are strugling to muve ahead and compete with the foreing giants. With the current demand for pilots world wide they are only hurting their own industry.

[NG ExPat]

It appears to me, that this is just another ploy by the corrupt DGCA to get their palms greased. A few Rupee's will change hands on an individual basis and the matter will then be overlooked.

The sooner that ICAO and the rest of the Aviation World realizes that the Indian Government, and the DGCA are doing nothing short of raping everyone the better. Perhaps, the US, UK and Canada should come up with some rules making it extremely difficult for Indian Licensed Pilots to fly into those countries. Then and only then will this Third World Country, with their highly uwarranted superior attitude towards the rest of the world, start to change the way that they do business.

It was reported a couple of days ago in the US, that up to as high as 1/3 of the Student Pilots in the US (a large majority from India) at the moment are here without TSA approval. Hence they are here illegally. So how about the US Government fines each one of them some outrageous amount, sends them packing home and forbids any refund of monies paid for training up to the point they are exported?

Makes about as much sense as what the DGCA has proposed doesn't it? Great way to improve relations across International Lines!!

[DesiPilot]

And the worst part is that the pilots who've held the approvals before were not given any grand father rights. Just like that one fine day your license is no longer valid although you have been flying on the same license for years and years.

I don't understand how would flight training in UK or any other country and than getting their RT licence is valid but god forbid if you train in the USA and got yourself an UK RT licence. Even though the UK CAA allows JAA flight training in the USA and the RT practical test to be carried out in the USA as well.

This country will never change. Sometime I feel that in India I am surrounded with incompetence.

DGCA is allowing people with FAA CPL to fly in India on FATA (they never even considered converting the FCC licence) but they will not allow a person who holds a commonwealth RT licence to operate in India.

Good luck to all the Certificate of Proficiency holders, I guess I am one of the lucky few who bothered to do the Indian RT which was issued to me after asking me useless questions in the viva and where a friend of mine was failed because his dad was an airline pilot and the second question they asked him was "do you think it is easy to become a pilot?" of course the first one was "What does your dad do?"

arghhh just venting, i promise i will be okay :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[matthewgamm]

Does the new rule affect expat pilots that are currently flying, or expats that a company hires in the following months/years?

Since the new rule came into effect February 7, what would be the status of an application that was sent in before that date, for a direct conversion from a UK RT license to the Indian one.

Any comments?

[getsetgo]

LOOKING at the DGCA rules its all about indian CPL/ATP etc
nothing much on other country licences
that may be the reason DGCA tends to fall in the rules and regulation folds of the book.

[NG ExPat]

Again I say, a HIGHLY UNWARRANTED SUPERIORITY towards the rest of the Aviation World. I suspect from his numerous posts that Getstogo works for the DGCA.

[getsetgo]

in india curruption :}
as law of the land one who gives favours and the one who takes favour both are criminals:eek:

[getsetgo]

looking at your threads it looks that countries you have masioned are going to loose the bussiness they are getting from india.
all these countries are looking to sell there aeroplanes /FIGHTER JETS to indian airforce,
looking to sign nuclear deal with india.
and also increase more bussiness relations with india.
if some body gives you magic stick i dont knw what will happen?

if one airline closes in india in next two years all your bright ideas will go waiste.
it looks as if you are living in india and not happy with the way things move india.
best thing is in ROME do as the ROMANS do.
THAT IS WHAT PROBABLY DGCA IS TRYING TO DO

[getsetgo]

This licence is granted by ministry of communication.
with this licence any body can use his personal radio transmitters/recievers
(HAM ) to operate R/T this is central govt rule,and it may be due to safety and security concerns of the country.
based on this licence aviation body issues another licence called flight radio operators licence.

[masalama]

no ,this ruling does not affect the foreign pilot as he/she flies on a validation which requires their origin country license and medical to be valid.

But it affects a lot of Indian pilots who have converted a foreign R/T license (UK,Canda etc etc) from the WPC,ministry of communications , sanchar bhavan without having a pilot's license of that country.it was far easier and less time consuming to stopover in the UK for a few days and get the UK R/T than try to pass the Indian R/T exam which has a transmission and viva .Pass rates are usually about less than 10% for the exam and are held 4 times a year.Peparation for this exam requires one to memorise the major trunk routes of India , workings of the Aeradio/AIP , technical knowledge in Radio navigation and secondary school physics . Coaching classes are available and usually a month's study can prepare one for it well.

I agree that those pilots currently flying should have been spared but then the Indian government agencies have their own ways....at least they dont have to appear for both the parts....

best of luck to all those affected .....masalama.

[flightknight]

I don't blame the Indian Pilots for the sins of the DGCA. Corruption victimises everyone, there are no winners in this game. Hopefully, the future generation of aviators in India will be bold and not succumb to the corruption loopholes.
Inventing regulations reflects the mindset of the system and not the folks affected by them.
Be professional and fly safe.:cool:

[boeingdream787]

The DGCA..........A LAW BY ITSELF........!!
These are people who have lost out in other walks of life and have used extremely corrupt means to rise in the corporate system and then become a law unto themselves....
Take for example the fact that you have to have a Dgca "interview" when you change from one indian carrier to another......or the fact that a Dgca "rep"( read Foi ) has to be present when you are being cleared for as an indian Tre/Tri/Sfi or Cp...!! Or the fact that AFTER getting 90%+ in an ATPL written exam,you STILL have to appear for a 'personal interview' with the Dgca FOI ( who makes sure he's 'not available' for months on end ) before passing his/her ATPL papers.ALL in he name of some currency exchanging palms between the Foi and the airline..( which has been amply corroborated by buddies of mine flying in the region ).
There were times in the indian aviation scenario when such 'babuism' would go unnoticed.But in today's media savvy,yuppie and educated, young aviation scene such corrupt ways and non transparent systems would only get the Director General (Mr Gohain in this case) and his organisation the wrath (if not more ) of the GOI and the Civil aviation ministry....to say the least!! I wonder if Mr Kanu Gohain(DG) even knows whats cooking in the embers....! Fact of the matter is that the MOST corrupt officials in the Dgca are sadly our own bretheren.The aviator who has graduated to become the babu....the Foi/Cfoi.
Far from over is this battle.All I can say is that they better mend their corrrupt ways.Or they better understand that the pilot is an enemy not worth taking up arms against and surely one to reckon with.
Every man has his skeleton,and every ghost has a shadow....

[alouette3]

The only way the DGCA will wake up and smell the cofee, is when the GOI, is hit by economic sanctions by foreign countries. By that I mean a very restricted sanctions such as refusal for AI or Jet or anyone to land in the other countries. A bit extreme? Yes! But that is all that will get the Babus' attention and the corrupt heads might roll. If the expats complain loudly and frequently to their individual governments citing unfair practices, not following ICAO guidelines or whatever ,it might get some action.
Unfortunately,that will happen when it is a cold day in hell.The almighty dollar/pound/yen/yuan is much more powerful than a few hundred pilots.
Alt3.

[NG ExPat]

You are right on the money Alouette. I already registered a complaint with the FAA after the screwing I got by the DGCA. I might as well have been pissing into a 100 Knot Wind!! However, USA Today has expressed some interest, so perhaps some public pressure may bring some change.

[getsetgo]

intresting to see who follows whom?

DGCA follows FAA,JAR or ......JAR,FAA FOLLOWS DGCA
it will be the best for pilots
no need for licence conversions and so many other hurdles coming towards licence renewal endorsements.


good luck guys

[getsetgo]

aloutte3

many pilots will go jobless:}

india had all kind of sanctions after becoming nuclear
today all foreign countries are trying to tie up with india for nuclear tech.
inspite of the sanctions from USA india had offered aid for Katrina to U s a
this is not the history but recent in last 10 years.

[Al Fakhem]

Well, if you want to know what (the majority of) the Indian government think about the general public, just watch interviews aired on TV with ministers. Their body language says it all: slouched over their easy chair or sofa, mumbling half-audible gibberish. Hardly the image of anyone interested in getting the country moving forward.

[captaan]

alouette3

if india puts economic sanctions what will happen?

thx flightnight for the thread which from licencing deviated to economics
then to politics.
i wonder what will happen if india puts FATA in to deep freezer for 6 months
for the pilots & then there will be no cold coffee even .

[flightknight]

intresting to see who follows whom?

DGCA follows FAA,JAR or ......JAR,FAA FOLLOWS DGCA

Despite a tense relationship with the FAA, US pilots do not have to contend with corruption when it comes to getting their licenses. The FAA is staffed with some of some of the brightest aviation minds - design engineers, veteran pilots, ex-astronauts etc..
It really depends on the quality of the folks running an organisation. So i guess the DGCA will need to clean up and follow the FAA or JAR.

[getsetgo]

importent is combine the best among all the aviation.
After formation of EU ,many COUNTRIES who joined EU are becoming JAR based from there individual DGCA"s and bringing common regulations in EU.
its the matter of time when these bigger organisations sit togather and thrash out issues for the good of aviation worldwide.
it will bring more transparency for dgca as well the pilots towards licencing and flying.
which is as of now taken care by issue of spacial licences by dgca in india.
india has gone throu lots of hijacking,bomb threats ,and terrorism related issues. many of those rules concerning security will be a big question mark to change.
every country will have such issues.
even FAA has followed these security related regulations after 9-11.

[flightknight]

Corruption is a disease or rather a virus. The FAA and JAR can only provide technical and regulatory knowledge. It is impossible to change a system that thrives on being corrupt and victimises highly qualified professionals.
This is not just a bad habit - it is a disease, so "getsetgo" please tell me your ideas to cure the DGCA.
I hear some real horror stories from students/professional pilots who have interacted with the DGCA. Is it possible that all these folks are lying about a great moral source with exemplary principles?.

[getsetgo]

simplest cure is stop bribing.
bcz in india by law is who gives favours/bribe is 101% punishable than who takes bribe.

[HiAltFlyer]

so the word to the wise. Do not bribe, give a gift that he can forward to his child's school. Cash please , no checks.
This is a fact of life in 3rd world countries. Actually in all countries the ritual of bribing is performed in one way or the other.
In the US, some girls when stopped by a policeman for a traffic violation try to make a date with the man. Would that be considered an attempt to bribe the man?
Fly low and slow and enjoy the sights

[DesiPilot]

I agree with HiAlt, its not the bribe that you give when you go to get your work done. Ohh its lets say the gifts that you bestow on them as Diwali gifts and now even Christmas gifts.

The question that comes in is whether you are willing to take the monetory losses that comes with not bribing? I was asked a meager INR5000 for the issue of my ATPL. I simply refused to pay the money as my paper work was in order and had all the relevant qualification. Well, rather than taking a week to issue the licence DGCA took 3 months. In my company we got a pay raise of INR 120,000 upon issue of ATPL. So I reckon I lost out on almost INR350,000 by not giving that 5K in bribe. Yes, I have self satisfaction that my licence was issued without giving bribe, but that bit costed me almost US$8500. Was it worth it? To me every penny of it :)

The Babu mentality is going away slowly, of course not quick enough for many people. When the current DG retires, I have learnt from reliable sourse, that the new DG will be from outside. Some really dynamic IAS officer (as if they do not take bribes.)

[flightknight]

Its not good to sell ones soul in the name of money. Good for you Desipilot. I'm sure there are going to be more brave souls who will expose these corrupt derelicts. Its got to stop sometime and its folks like you who make the changes. It shows leadership and it will take you a long way in your career. All the best :ok:

[johnriketes]

flightknight

"The FAA is staffed with some of some of the brightest aviation minds - design engineers, veteran pilots, ex-astronauts etc.."

Quiet agree. the FAA are also staffed with some of the rudest a***holes I have ever spoken too. Had to deal with one such moron at Fort,L, FL, early last year.

[alouette3]

getsetgo:

I admire your nationalist attitude. But with all due respect ,you and your attitude sucks big time. It is attitudes like yours that have permitted the Indian DGCA and the GOI to have their collective heads up their a****.
Forget about Katrina and all that other crap you posted earlier. How does a common man deal with the DGCA? Riddle me that,Batman.
The plain unvarnished and unpalatable (to some ) truth is that while there is progress and prosperity in India today(for which everyone should be proud), the government and the infrastructure are still in the Dark Ages. Otherwise how can you explain the fact that the nation that provides computer programmers worldwide ,has a departmnet (DGCA) that won't even respond to an email or query?How can you explain the fact that the nation that has the finest doctors in the world allows only two or three organizations to conduct a flight physical? I could go on but you get the picture.
I will tell you why.It is because the babus and people like getsetgo make the rules.They would rather stay in the last century than come out and ply with the rest of the world.
Sorry if I sound peeved but I have had enough of the DGCA and their ass kissing supporters. Those expats who want to go to India for pay, aircraft type qualification, adventure etc. you have been warned. If you want any of those things try the Gulf or SE Asia. Let the Indian private airlines park/crash their expensive new toys before they kick the DGCA into catching up.Until then nothing will or has changed.
Thanks for letting me vent. I feel better now.
Alt3.
P.S The FAA might be rude but at least they respond to emails and telephone calls and ,more times than not, they perform as advertised.

[johnriketes]

Conceded.

As for the Indians not answering emails, it is a national past time. Part of their culture, unless of course they stand to gain from answering.

[getsetgo]

what money you lost today will bring you rewards tomarrow and it will be in multifications not additions.
you have not lost anything ,but maintained your principles.you are already rich on principles. :ok:
there is no end to money

[getsetgo]

railway minister is handling worlds biggest network.
he is planning to connect china to bulgaria rail network passing thro +25 countries.
he is engg graduate can speak +16 languages can learn more.
if i have to do so much.....i will have no time to paste my face for camera.
media alway hunting for him....when he is off and you are on
curry comes here.

[getsetgo]

minister

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

railway minister is handling worlds biggest network.
he is planning to connect china to bulgaria rail network passing thro +25 countries.
he is engg graduate can speak +16 languages can learn more.
if i have to do so much.....i will have no time to paste my face for camera.
media alway hunting for him....when he is off and you are on
curry comes here.

[getsetgo]

do your job.
and go for jog

[HiAltFlyer]

Most of us come from "first world" Western countries. Many of us have the tendency to measure the rest of the world with our yardstick. When I leave home, I change the currency in my pocket. In this case to rupees. This affects my attitude, tolerance etc. towards the people and the country.
I take "the bitter with the sweet" and every country I have been (with the exception of Sudan) had something that I enjoyed. About bribes (tips = to insure prompt service), know when to hold and when to fold. If this people would earn the salaries of our government employees, the system could be changed. BTW 5000 rupees for 3 months wait, wellll I just don't have that much time to waste. In many ways we are fortunate to have the opportunities that exist today and see the world our parents could only dream about. Obviously most of you do not remember the 70's, the time no aviation jobs where available at home.
Yall watch that TCAS now

[flightknight]

I was on a visit to India a few years ago and met a retired TOP police official. He owned a modest two bedroom home and had a scooter for transportaion. He was transferred 32 times during his career.
Fact is, he never compromised on his ETHICS. I asked him WHY. He told me he will enjoy everyday to the end because he has a clear conscience.
The COCKPIT at any cost is not everyones GOAL.
Fly safe ........

[preetham]

hopefully we don't have to pay bribe to get the job.
PS : I even had to bribe the officer to get my two wheeler license, huh

[getsetgo]

DGCA is indipendent regulatory body only for aviation, whereas FAA JAR work under ministry of transportation.
DGCA has more authority and powers than FAA/JAR.
so FAA JAR Cannot really follow DGCA
or DGCA EITHER WAY

[boeingdream787]

getsetgo,
Pls get yourself into a grammar school to begin with.And then with ur atitude pl "Get Set & Go".....!!
Alt3.......Kudos,my fellow aviator.I agree with you 100%. Keep up the good work.The Indian DGCA needs a complete overall. Complete with the terminators fumigating the rat holes in the floorboards and the termite ridden attics! And chasing the current heirachy (the rats and termites) right out into oblivion. Its a very sad day when an aviator has to talk about the Director General of a country like this.....a very sad day indeed...!! :( .
I beg you my DGCA babus....you may come to your office a little late,have your every half hourly coffee breaks,take those long lunch sessions,have that 2pm-4pm siesta,go home early and hey,even take those ridiculously unwarranted bribes ( if available).........but what differentiates a successful beaurocrat from an unsuccessful one is that even after ALL of the above,the successful beaurocrat (DGCA/CFOI) should GET THE JOB DONE.....!!! :D Period....!!! All these pseudo delays in 'getting the job done' are'nt going to get you folks any more importance than is due to you. Neither is anyone who is affected by these "beaurocratic delays" going to feel this projected pseudo power..!! Cause you have none...:= . And you never did! Change is inevitable,and this time my friends.....it right around the corner!!
So stop,and smell the roses my DGCA babus,cause thats exactly what you dont have time for now. And remember,the **** that you throw up,has no place to come but down....:}

[DesiPilot]

getset,

The problem with DGCA is exactly what you said, they think they are independent body and they do not have to answer to anyone. What you are forgetting is that at the end of the day you are still a civil servant and your pay is paid by the taxes that I pay every month. If you think you (DGCA) are anywhere close to FAA or JAA you are sadly mistaken my friend. Yes, I hold all three licenses, FAA, JAA and DGCA and I can tell you that DGCA stands no where compared to FAA or JAA. The biggest difference is they treat you like a human being.

I don't think DGCA will ever change. They like their paper work too much, I guess that is how they feel important.

DGCA may be the only authority in the world that doesn't allow First officers to land the aircraft until they have done their assisted take off and landing checks.... so god forbid if the captain passes out, all the passengers are in deep sh*t since the FO has never landed the plane in normal circumstances forget about the case of crew incapacitation. Who think of these rules anyway?

Indian citizens who are flying on FATA be warned. As soon as the shortage is over, the DGCA will cancel the FATA in a heart beat, like they have done it for the RT licence. So you better pass your Indian exams as soon as possible and start flying on the Indian license.

[flightknight]

Please clarify : FO's not allowed to land ?. Is the Airline Passengers Association aware of this ?
This is tantamount to suicide, if the captain becomes incapacitated for any reason. I am not sure if the world aviation body is aware of this. I'm sure the insurance companies will be interested in this news , since they will be the ones shelling out the big bucks in case of a catastrophe.

[DesiPilot]

FlightKnight,

It is called Assisted Take off and Landing clearance in India. The DGCA last year reduced the experience to 50 hours and 20 landings after the FO is released, earlier it used to be 300 hours. The catch is that after meeting the requirement the FO has to undergo a sim session to be approved for Asst TO and Landing clearance. Sometime it can take as long as 5 months before the next sim session is due. Also the PIC is required to have 500 hour PIC on type before they can give take offs and landing to FO. So, here I am a brand new captain with a meager 150 hours on type, I cannot give take off and landings to any FO (including Sr FO's who have cleared their Asst Take off & Landings) as I am not cleared to do so. Both Capt & FO must hold the approval.

You can find out more about it at http://dgca.nic.in/aic/aic09_07.pdf (http://dgca.nic.in/aic/aic09_07.pdf)

While I was flying in the USA, a capt never asked me if I was cleared for take offs and landings. The only thing they asked me was which leg I wanted to do and that started the ball rolling for next few days we were on a trip together. When I came to India it was a shock for me. Here I was an relatively experience FO, around 4000 total time but for the 400 hours in the bus I couldnt take off or land because I didn't have the darn approval (thanks to DGCA for the ruling).

[Pushpak]

D.G.C.A is full of crap, pretty sure they don’t know the difference between the knee and the elbow. What amazes me the most is, what are the flight ops dept of the various airlines doing about it? I understand there are various reps from the airlines working as examiners, shame on you. Give some decent advice and get the D.G.C.A up to the mark.

[HiAltFlyer]

No doubt, the DGCA needs a major overhaul. For the sake of change that not all of us sing the same song, I try another one "walk a mile in my shoes" and see how they feel.
This system has has "worked well" for this people for a long time. This officials do not have a personal economic incentive to change. All of us are new to this country and earn about 10 times more than they do. Before the President personally gets involved, things will change very slowly, but change will come.
Enjoy the adventures.
More important, where are the women???

[vmaunu]

I got an email below(just want to inform this, not blaiming anyone):

Dear Mr. Maunu!

I totally agree with you that you have a contract with us and also we have
obtained your security clearance.But the unfortunate part is that the DGCA
has clearly informed us that they will not allow any EXPAT FIRST OFFICER
TO FLY IN INDIA BEYOND 1ST JUNE 08. In view of this directive, it will not be possible to bring you in,

With warm regards

K B Menon
SR.GM - Operations Planning
Jet Airways

[johnriketes]

OH, that is interesting.

If an a/c is crewed by both an Indian Captain and an Expat Captain and instead of alternating PIC and SIC each leg for example, the Indian will just have to be SIC.

Shot themselves in foot once again, don't you think?

[GSMini]

Hi there all,

I´ve also heard about this new Indian law. From the first of June 2008, no expats will be allowed as FO. Initially I´m not gonna get worried, because my airline has not told me a word on this, but..Does that mean the we´re gonna be fired by the first of June?

Regards:}

[boeingdream787]

Yes..... know about this new law.Its from the ministry itself.Saw the draft copy.Dont remember its effectivity date though.........

[matthewgamm]

Where exactly on the DGCA site is this new rule stated? Could someone provide a link to the same?

What then, happens to all the expat F/Os, that Indian companies such as Kingfisher already hired for their A330s and A340s, and IndiGo that currently has the most number of expat F/Os?

Thanks

[flightknight]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/India_Business/Govt_tells_airlines_not_to_hire_foreign_co-pilots/rssarticleshow/2838101.cms

[Aeronotix]

Is this decision of Civil Aviation Ministry going to be enforced by DGCA? Going by the letter received by vmaunu from Jet it seems very likely that airlines will have to implement the deadline of 1st June 2008.

However, I feel that to bring in such a rule at short notice is unfair to Expat F/Os, specially those that are in the middle of their contracts. Its ok to ask airlines not to recruit expat F/Os or renew contracts but to terminate them before expiry is uncalled for.

Though I am an Indian F/O flying wide-body aircraft for an Indian major and sympathise with the unemployed pilots here, this callous attitude of DGCA and its master stinks. Imagine the plight of those who have relocated here, maybe some with family. And how will this reflect on our country as a whole?

Aeronotix.

[lastdon]

What is DGCA trying to do?? :confused:

"The situation is such that the Directorate General of Civil Aviation has had to put a rider on hiring expat pilots to protect interest of Indian co-pilots. Airlines have to submit an exit plan for expat commanders and training schedule for Indian co-pilots each time they need DGCA nod for hiring a foreign flier. "

Full article: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/India_Business/JetLite_tweaks_salary_of_pilots_to_slash_costs/articleshow/2802725.cms

Well how can this be a win-win situation? By reducing costs and hiring freshers who are out of a pilot factory is just going to add more problems.

Really feel that the right approach should have been that given the high costs in retaining experienced crews, airlines in india should follow the training pattern as that of SIA cadet pilot programme. What a way to reduce costs......:eek:

Shame on DGCA......:ugh:

[Nevrekar]

An exit plan in itself is not necessarily bad as long as it's not a hasty one.
Most countries (USA in particular) has similar restrictions on hiring of foreign applicants (non-immigrants). They have to submit documentation that there are no U.S. applicants capable of the job before a work visa can be granted.
Not much in India is black and white, just plenty of shades of grey!

Expats Capts really do not have much to worry about. The worst case scenario is that they will be asked to depart in 3-5 years. By that time all the age 60 guys will have reached 65. And if India does not want expats, then China, ME, Korea, Vietnam and others will be more than glad to take them as quickly as they can, with improved terms and conditions. If the EU relaxes its work rules for U.S pilots then that will open up a whole new job market.

Ask any expat Capt who is registered with a contract agency. They will tell you that offers are plenty if you have time in type and PIC on the favoured aircraft in use.

[Nevrekar]

An exit plan in itself is not necessarily bad as long as it's not a hasty one.
It also keeps the politicians and their constituents happy election time!
Most countries (USA in particular) has similar restrictions on hiring of foreign applicants (non-immigrants). They have to submit documentation proving that there are no U.S. applicants capable of the job before a work visa can be granted. Not much in India is black and white, just plenty of shades of grey!

Expats Capts really do not have much to worry about. The worst case scenario is that they will be asked to depart in 3-5 years. I think very few want to be here for more than that time anyway. By that time all the age 60 guys will have reached 65. And if India does not want expats, then China, ME, Korea, Vietnam and others will be more than glad to take them as quickly as they can, with improved terms and conditions. If the EU relaxes its work rules for U.S pilots then that will open up a whole new job market.

Ask any expat Capt who is registered with a contract agency. They will tell you that offers are plenty and keep coming weekly if you have time in type and PIC on the favoured aircraft in use.

[Nevrekar]

Airlines in the USA also have similar restrictions regarding T/O & Ldgs for new Capts and it depends on the airline and it's OPSSPECS approved by the FAA.
A new Capt usually has to do all T/O and Landings for the first 100 hrs on type as PIC. There are also Green on Green restrictions. A new Capt with less than 75 hrs on type cannot be paired with an F/O with less than 75 hrs on type. Furthermore there are many conditions listed in the in the FOM where the Capt is required to do the T/O & LDG. If these conditions are not an issue the the Capt may give the F/O the T/O or Landing.

[fullforward]

I sincerely hope Indian airlines and DGCA resist to go the same way Korea went on early 80's: they made the headlines with smoking debris and human remains many times, due to lack of experienced enough crews.
Lessons from the past must be learned.
The price of a disaster is high enough.

[getsetgo]

no such case to my knowledge as far as ICAO states matters.
so insurance companies may be very confident on the ICAO norms.

[Sky Dancer]

I'm a bit confused...FATA is applicable to expatriates...foreigners...eventually FATA holders will be asked to leave ..so then what happens to the Indians flying on FATA ???as far as I know there is nothing in writing about Indians flying on FATA...just the whims of a couple of people in the DGCA...it's a miracle things function in this country despite no system being in place...I think it's high time someone complains to ICAO ..tell them of how the system...or lack of it ...in India...on another note...in 1994 DGCA said that Maths and Physics were mandatory at senior school..now some senior chap in the ministry has a kid who cant pass math and physics so they're changing the rules...now everyone can fly...and add to the umemployment of CPLs in the country...:cool::cool::cool:

[flightknight]

"in 1994 DGCA said that Maths and Physics were mandatory at senior school..now some senior chap in the ministry has a kid who cant pass math and physics so they're changing the rules."

That is a good observation, since India probably produces the most college graduates / engineers/doctors per annum, compared to any other country in the world.
Even if the lower flight time entry requirements are justified, its strange that educational requirements for a CPL and an airline job are being lowered.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Science_till_10th_only_You_can_still_be_a_pilot/articleshow/2820933.cms

[getsetgo]

those companies who hired f/o
they will make them captains

[Sky Dancer]

well I hope the DGCA and the Ministry has the Balls to pull up the airlines that do that....it's high time some one stand up and tell the Indian carriers..Enough is Enough...start following the rules....

[getsetgo]

flight knight
post 93
insurance companies take in to consideration past record.....
ICAO states medical standreds and so on
insurance companies would have been the first one to act in this situation.
since there is no such case among ICAO states of pilot incapacitation,
insurance companies are cool on this issue, may be more comfortable and happy with the system ICAO states follow

[getsetgo]

sky dancer
change took place because 10th standred in india is equivalent to 15 standred in non ICAO states, its just the balancing act so that more pilots can be brought in to the system.
many expats are flying with "o" level in india which is 10 years in school,
so you can understand now.

[Sky Dancer]

Well Getsetgo...The more I read your posts the more I feel that you are part of the DGCA or Praful Patel's nephew...or maybe even Mr. Patel himself...but here are couple for facts for you ....

^ The GCSE O levels is equivalent to our ( Indian ) 11th standard if you take into account the number of years at school and their syllabus is also on par...I cannot comment on other countries but in general in European coutries when they say they've passed high school it means they have completed 12 standard..

^ When reputed foreign carriers hire you they take into account your academic records and work experience very carefully...

^ Concerning Pilot incapacitation....BA had a case with a Captain becoming incapacitated at the time of take off from Heathrow about 3 years ago ( if my memory is correct ) and I think it was on a B 7474....considering that London is the heart of the worlds aviation and shipping insurance..the insurance cos will certainly know what they are talking about..

^ You might like to know this bit of information..in the mid 90s Malaysian Airlines when through this bout of nationalisation...the local guys were pretty hostile to the expats at that point in time and they went of a boot the expat spree...in the process many guys who were not really ready for command were upgraded....it happened in the case of a guy on a F50...he was failed by an Expat (read White) TRE....there was noise about him being racist...and they brought a local TRE ( bhumiputra ) and he cleared him.....2 weeks later they lost the plane while flying an approach into Sandakan (or Tawau) Sabah, East Malaysia....Lloyds the insurance guys went through the records and saw what happened and pulled them up for it..MH had to re advertise for expat crew once again...so the cycle continues...

^ So you see we guys are in the business of flying people around...IE HUMAN LIVES...so I think the crackheads sitting on top should be reminded every once in a while that it is important to get the right people on the Flight Deck....

^ Take time off from your high handedness and ask your self this question..you might be flying a B 737 NG or A 320...lets say your in Command and things are not going right..you've lost your automation and your on raw data and you've got wx all aroung you..who would you like sitting next to you....a well trained motivated co pilot or some guys or girl who became a pilot for the sake of it....

So these are the facts..and I dont think it'll make you happy...

[Sky Dancer]

Oh Yeah just an after thought..

The F 50 involved in the Sandakan crash was fatal...everyone on board died and so did a couple of people in the village ahead of the runway..

but then I guess for people like getsetgo...it doesn't really matter does it...

[DesiPilot]

Getsetgo,

Change is good but when you are changing the system why stop half way, why not go all the way? There is no educational requirements either in the FAA system or JAA. All it requires is that you can read, write and understand english language (Now its a different story whether you speak Queens english, Yank, Indian, EU, SE Asia or even OZ english).

The problem that I see is with these arbitrary ruling. There are unemployed local co-pilots in the market; DGCA has recently brought in a ruling that no more expat FOs from June onwards; so why lower the educational qualification now? Its not that there is shortage of co-pilots and we cannot find 10+2 (with maths and science) candidates !!!

Another arbitrary rule is not renewing the RTs? What ground do they have for not recognising the foreign RTs? May be they should look in to why people go abroad to do their RTs rather than stopping the conversion. The syllabus is archiac, the questions in the transmission are out of sequence and during viva they ask questions out of their a**es. Yes, I hold Indian RT and after 13 years I still do not see the relevance between RT licence and telling the wa*ker what the diffence was in PAL/NTSC or how exactly TV worked!!!

DGCA is lacking in so many areas that they need a complete makeover. Perhaps they should learn from JAA (reduce some bureaucracy ) and than move on to FAA to eliminate it further.

[farrari]

Desipilot, Is this new rule for Expats flying domestic only or does it include International flights as well.

[Sky Dancer]

Hey Desipilot...I don't think anyone could have made more sense that you buddy...BTW they've advertised on the DGCA website for the post of DG...I certainly think you'll make a good candidate....good one..

[DesiPilot]

Thanks Sky, but don't think I can get down to their standards, so I am happy where I am.

Farrari,

I was discussing the same thing with my friends (read expat FOs) who are in Indigo and with my friends (read Indians) on AI 777 fleet. No one seem to know whats going to happen. At least the guys in Indigo who have the hours will be upgraded to fly as Captains. The guys in AI (all the Kiwis out there) are based out of India, so no one knows if the rule applies to expat FOs based in India or to all expat officers. As always there are no clear guidelines from the authority (or lack off).

[getsetgo]

sky dancer

as in 90" maths and physics till 12th introduced by the authority,same way it is readjusted to 10th std.
because many expat are flying with diffrent kinds of cirtificates probably 10 years school is good.

BA incident...EGLL..there is C.A.A. NOT ICAO .

malasyian kind things happens all over the world,take it easy.

[getsetgo]

i UNDERSTAND FROM THE POSTS THAT UK RTR LICENCE IS ACCEPTABLE PROVIDED YOU HAVE UK LICENCE(CPL)
MEANS YOU CANNOT HAVE FAA LICENCE(ATP)+ UK RTR FOR APPROVAL TO GET ONBOARD IN ICAO.
MEANS MUST HAVE BOTH LICENCES FROM THE SAME LICENCING AUTHORITY.

This is been come in to picture bcz people tried to get onboard with false forged fabricates licences then trying to bribe at DGCA with those forged papers.
this happens in all ICAO states...when there is expansion ,lot of crap tries to sneak in And this crap tries to change the system as well.
so the rules/system are contantly changed every time to plug sneakers.
there are cases like when GDCA saw expat log book entry for a/c which was still on the drawing board.
when you drive on indian mountains up north,very nice sign boards you will see like
DO"NT BE GAMMA IN THE LAND OF LAMA so that you drive safe without stunts and risks.
Keep your IDs secure, FAA INSPECTORS ARE LOOSING THEM HIGH TIME.
Here it is very serious due to the security concerns of the country.

[alouette3]

I also believe that getsetgo works for, or is, the DGCA. His responses and rebuttals and explanations are classic DGCA: incoherent and incomprehensible.
As to the issue of lives being at risk , that has never been a problem in India. In a country of 1.1 billion people the Government does not care if a few hundred are lost in air accidents.
Alt3.

[getsetgo]

Desi pilot post 229

What I guess the reason for lowering education standards ……..
May be experience and feed back coming from various agencies like ATC, OPERATORS AND OTHER TECHNICAL BODIES about the use of radio during last five years or so as pilots are coming from all over the globe during this time.

Quote
(All it requires is that you can read, write and understand english language (Now its a different story whether you speak Queens english, Yank, Indian, EU, SE Asia or even OZ English)

As you said it is important to communicate effectively on the radio, there are situations when the pilot could not read/understand or read back the instructions of ATC in spite of having good education to university levels and from superior country.

10th standard rule….. It seems there will be more emphasize on communication skills than paper certificates.

It is nothing to do with employment issues.

Not recognizing other State license…..no idea…State may be black listed in the records considering the influx of forged documents in to ICAO states.
Or the chances of forged papers (lack of transparency)
I do recognize foreign RTs, but DGCA may not be sure on the authenticity of the document.


You got your RTR you are lucky after 13 years, probably instructor knew your capabilities and did not wanted to waste time on what he was doing with other candidates (good professional:ok:)

System addresses masses not individuals.

[Rotorhead1026]

On 1 November 2007 getsetgo posted ...


indian DGCA knows you

Mr ...so n so..
DGCA KNOWS EACH AND EVERY PILOT
this is one of the best DGCA.....OR ....CAA....OR FAAA...OR JAAAA.
and doing a good job.
i understand yor are not really close to ABC of safe aviation...which is very much intact so far with DGCA.
ARE you a flight dispacher?......or a doctor?.....scheduler?
may be you wont understand most of these.....good luck
try not to interfear pilots forum....:=



On 19 March 2008 getsetgo posted ...



System addresses masses not individuals



Hmmmm ...

I should note that I've been to HQ several times and was always treated politely and professionally. Most people everywhere are pretty nice if you give them a chance, but it's clear my experience isn't universal.

[getsetgo]

rotorhead
this old thread was focussed on diffrent issue which was i think regarding some pilots medical issue(i dont know if he still flying in there)

system comes in to picture when there are more than one person working in a setup.
its like when i had less than 10 workers ,no system was required.(can attend every body Personally )
but as the organisation expands there was a need to establish system.
or you can say general guidelines

[getsetgo]

Alouette 3

Your attitude is
“Heads mine, tails mine if I still loose I kill”
1.1 billion People are ready for flying ,less than 1000 don’t like the scenario.
i donot think any govt will make policies based upon the -ve thinking of death and distruction.

Enjoy

[getsetgo]

^ Take time off from your high handedness and ask your self this question..you might be flying a B 737 NG or A 320...lets say your in Command and things are not going right..you've lost your automation and your on raw data and you've got wx all aroung you..who would you like sitting next to you....a well trained motivated co pilot or some guys or girl who became a pilot for the sake of it....

So these are the facts..and I dont think it'll make you happy...

**************************************************

sky dancer
I think training pattern set already has worked so far
Hope fully it will work
If doesn’t then there will be new rules/regulations.
With the new CPL holders taking seats, DGCA telling operators to open training setups , RTR issues got some amendments....
lot of changes already taken place in this new environment, and towards the concerns you have mentioned.

[Rotorhead1026]

On 19 March 2008 getsetgo said:


system
rotorhead
this old thread was focussed on diffrent issue which was i think regarding some pilots medical issue(i dont know if he still flying in there)

system comes in to picture when there are more than one person working in a setup.
its like when i had less than 10 workers ,no system was required.(can attend every body Personally )
but as the organisation expands there was a need to establish system.
or you can say general guidelines



Baloney!

You DO sound like a "government official", though. :suspect:

[boeingdream787]

Gosh getsetgo......for the third time......please take a grammar lesson.....!!!!
And learn to punctuate too while you're at it...!! Darn sure you're an ATC guy. Transmit only and with muffs off...!!

[farrari]

DesiPilot, thanks for the info , any one out there clear this up!

[getsetgo]

boeing dream 787

when i f**k i donot look at face, i donot dream ,i concentrate on my job of f**king.
thats how i enjoy my job.

[getsetgo]

rotorhead

The post you pasted in this thread was about a pilot whose medical issues were posted by his colleagues on this forum, and that pilot lost his job and same colleagues sent him condolences.
So in that thread I tried to tell them not to do such things as may be DGCA also looking and following the thread.
But this matter was already in the media, poor fellow lost due to circumstances.
That’s why I felt like asking these people if they are pilots/dispatchers/or schedulers.....................you can fill what they can be.........here.
you are free to asume my status as ATC,OR DGCA etc

[Rotorhead1026]

Yeah, in fact I made a post on that thread. That wasn't my interpretation at all - in fact the subject was "ratted out" by a disgruntled former employee. In any case your grammar and syntax are so difficult to decipher I cannot always understand your point, or even if there is a point. You may well have some valid and valuable insights, but, my friend, they are practically incomprehensible. I must agree (in a somewhat softer tone) with some of the other posters - you either need an interpreter to type in your posts or a language refresher. Best of luck to you. :)

[NG ExPat]

Rotorhead,

By no means am I defending this Clown, however I do remember him saying something about having to use a keyboard that translates his language to English. His command of the English Language is poor at best, and whatever it is that he uses to translate, be it keyboard or Translator, are no better. It is either that, or he spends most of his waking hours swimming in a bottle of Old Monk!!

I tend to agree that he most likely works for the DGCA. That being said, it is no wonder that the DGCA is so out of control. Have you ever noticed how rules suddenly come out of nowhere, and they are not published on paper or anywhere for us to see? Take for example the Age 60 issue for FAA Licensed Pilots. A ruling was made to stop us from flying past 60 in India. Was that ruling ever published? No, it was simply word of mouth!
Some overly impressed with himself idiot just decided one day that he was going to toss that particular iron into the fire. Most likely because his palm had been greased with the right amount of Rupee's!!

The same thing applied in my situation, nothing in writing was ever handed to me or anyone else. Simply an email from my employer stating that the DGCA had reviewed my medical records. Which I assure you they did not. Some Desk Jockey who has no clue just decided that I wasn't medically fit to fly in the dirty air of India, and we all know about the extremely low opinion they have of FAA Medicals. Of course they fail to mention how a portion of Indian Pilots, are given a pass by some Medical Corpsman on their Physicals, because the Doctor couldn't seem to get his ass to work that day.

ICAO, the FAA et. al. are aware of what is going on over there. Can they do something about it? Or better yet will they? Probably not, the country has us by the balls. We need their government support in that region. Large Corporations set up call centers their, thus saving themselves millions in salaries. It is another case of money talks! We are screwed, and in our heart of hearts we all know it, but we choose to ignore it.

Someday after their are a few piles of smoldering metal laying around, because of some insane DGCA ruling, something may get done.

[Sky Dancer]

well NG Expat...quite a few people around the world think that the FAA medical is a joke..it's not just the Indian authorities ....and if I have to be honest about it...the FAA medicals and the exams are a joke.....

[getsetgo]

NG EXPAT POST 22
Best thing is when you know rape is inevitable, better you enjoy it.
when you are willing to be f**ked,what any body can do?

[NG ExPat]

Sky Dancer

You have been drinking way tooooo much Indian Kool Aid!!!

[getsetgo]

NG expat ref post 23 by you

quate
The same thing applied in my situation, nothing in writing was ever handed to me or anyone else. Simply an email from my employer stating that the DGCA had reviewed my medical records.
********************************************************
i guess now you will go for medicals
Or employer will send you one way ticket in writing, hand delivery, for your longest tripp of the carrier.
check ticket when you recieve ,ensure it is by air not rail tkt or road transportation.
And it will be confirmed tkt i am sure on that angle.
its good to be mentally prepared at a place where things change tooo fast,rules regulations etc.
its like changing tyres to snow tyres before the snow actualy starts(easy to understand, i hope not complex english)

[DesiPilot]

Getsetgo,

First thing first, when you are refering to a post # do not use the posts # that you see under the screen name. It updates everytime that person makes another posting and confuses the hell out of us. So you'd be better off using the post # that is there on the top right corner of the posting. Like in this post I will be quoting from your post # 80 & # 85 and not posts by you (currently 67) and it will change to 68 once you answer my post :-p

Now that we have the basics squared away, I don't think NG will be going anywhere. Not because he will get a new medical and not because some paper pusher in your office thinks that he is medically fit again. But due to the fact that someone from his airline will bribe one of the babus in your office (thats the reason he was found medically unfit to begin with). I do not know him personally but he sounds like a sensible guy and in case he'd have to leave India I am sure he will find hundreds of jobs between India and his country. I can bet that he won’t even cross the Indian Ocean before he is offered another job. Now that is not the case for you, is it? If you are caught taking bribe, no one is going to touch you with a barbed pole. So be very very careful my friend.

Also, and I
NG EXPAT POST 22
Best thing is when you know rape is inevitable, better you enjoy it.
when you are willing to be f**ked,what any body can do?

and


boeing dream 787

when i f**k i donot look at face, i donot dream ,i concentrate on my job of f**king.
thats how i enjoy my job.

I think you need to get out of your white office, go across the street and catch a blue line bus that will take you to MG Road. Now I know why you guys are so stuck up, you are not getting any, neither at home nor outside and now it shows in your postings too. Perhaps you can do us a favour and use the bribe money for this cause. This way at least you will be pleasant to talk to.

And for the standards of medicals, well, FAA is easy I agree. Do they cut corners, I don't think so. If they did, DGCA or for that matter any other ICAO contracting State will not allow FAA licence holders to fly in their State. I don't see DGCA appointed medical centres performing any additional tests. If anything, it is a humiliating experience. It takes the Airforce guys 6 hours to perform something that shouldn't take more than 30 minutes.

And please do not get me started on the infection control practices of any of the airforce hospitals. I have to piss in the same test tube that has been used thousands of times before? The lab technician who is drawing blood never wears any gloves? The audiometry machine is as archaic as I am and the headset has never been cleaned or sterilised. I can only hope that ENT equipment was sterilised and that it will not be used again before it goes through the sterilising process again.

Next time you find yourself a little motivated (may be right after you've visited MG Road) please go to medical section and pick up any PMR. It has enough dust on it that it will trigger an asthmatic attack and perhaps enough sh*t on it to give you many other airborne disease.

While we are discussing your posts please tell me what Snow Fall are you talking about? The only SNOW that I see falling will be on DGCA. The Civil Aviation ministry has decided to bring in an external DG. What, you do not have any qualified people amongst yourselves? I am sure you are pissed off that an outsider is coming and he/she will be telling you how to do your job properly.

[getsetgo]

desi pilot
this website is good
so many come here to vent out.
Thanks for the first paragraph,thats why may be utter confusion on posts.
your hygiene concerns noted.

[Rotorhead1026]

On 20 March 2008 Sky Dancer said:

the FAA medicals and the exams are a joke.....


I guess you'd better define "joke" for me.

The exam does seem less extensive than in other countries. I'll note that if something suspicious is found, that situation can quickly reverse. In NG Expat's case, they gave him a chance whereas in other countries he'd just be summarily grounded. In his case grounding doesn't seem justified.

Now last I looked there were about 1 million licensed pilots on this earth. Approximately 800,000 hold US licenses. A`few are "foreigners" who have since gone back home ("dual" licenses, as we see in India often). The vast majority are flying in the US only. Activity is defined mostly by whether the pilot's medical is current.

I don't know the exact percentage, but I'd say most of these are 2nd or 3rd class medicals - even less stringent than my 1st class. If my medical is a joke, than the 3rd class medical is Johnny Carson's (my favorite stand-up comic, God rest his soul) monologue on speed! Note that the glider guys and gals don't require a medical AT ALL!

For all that, one almost never hears of a pilot becoming incapaciataed in flight in the US. It happens, but it's rare. I think the last I heard of one anywhere was a BA f/o recently who, unfortunately, died (correct me if I'm wrong). Presumably he was flying on one of the "unfunny" medicals. Didn't help (and I'm not "crowing" - it's a sad thing all around). I do remember a Continental pilot who died in January of last year (f/o landed safely), but before that I can't think of one, even in GA.

So is the FAA medical a joke, or are the others ridiculous overkill? We can all pick over statistics and argue endlessly, but I'll defend the FAA's procedure. It's worked well for a long time. Just my two cents ... :)

[DesiPilot]

Getsetgo,

There is a difference between hygiene and infection. I am not talking about hygiene control but infection control. Of course infection control starts with hygiene control but it doestn't stop there.

Perhaps you want to hand out this document to relevant department.

http://www.who.int/injection_safety/en/AM_InfectionControl_Final.pdf



Hygiene refers to practices associated with ensuring good health and cleanliness. The scientific term "hygiene" refers to the maintenance of health and healthy living. The term appears in phrases such as personal hygiene, domestic hygiene, dental hygiene, and occupational hygiene and is frequently used in connection with public health. The term "hygiene" is derived from Hygieia, the Greek goddess of health, cleanliness and sanitation. Hygiene is also a science that deals with the promotion and preservation of health. Also called hygienics.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene


An infection is the detrimental colonization of a host organism by a foreign species. In an infection, the infecting organism seeks to utilize the host's resources to multiply (usually at the expense of the host). The infecting organism, or pathogen, interferes with the normal functioning of the host and can lead to chronic wounds, gangrene, loss of an infected limb, and even death. The host's response to infection is inflammation. Colloquially, a pathogen is usually considered a microscopic organism though the definition is broader, including feces, parasites, fungi, viruses, prions, and viroids. A symbiosis between parasite and host, whereby the relationship is beneficial for the former but detrimental to the latter, is characterised as parasitism. The branch of medicine that focuses on infections and pathogens is infectious disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection

Rant out, its time to hit the sack, had a long flying day today and tomorrow flying again so that I can have HOLI off.

To all of you who are in India HAPPY HOLI and play safe. To every one else Happy Easter as well :)

[getsetgo]

desi pilot

It is going to take more than 5 years to provide sterilized tubes and gloves
At any medical centre.
May be you can take your own gear for next medical, or check on the availability of the equipment after 5 years.
That is the penalty you pay to live in 3rd world .
Here even tax payers do not get these facilities.
Your PDF file will gather more dust as already place is full of papers and dust for so many years; & nobody reported any asthmatic attack due to this dust.
No reports on sars, virus, and mad cow decease etc.
You are from first world; your insurance will cover you anyway.

[getsetgo]

FAA medical standards are based upon medical and health facilities provided by the government to all citizens in general.
So it becomes easy for FAA to have simpler fitness tests since all the citizens are well taken care of by the medical setup.
So comparison is not workable because ICAO states have lot of variation within itself.
Some ICAO states have very good health system, some are far behind.
Under such circumstances ICAO states are having different medical check requirements based on the medical setup in the country and aviation requirements.

[DesiPilot]

5 years for what? To buy a pair of gloves and disposable plastic bottles? Please tell me you are not serious? And where is my 1000 rupees going then? I can go to Apollo or Max or Fortis and get the same tests done for the same amount of money. I am not given a choice here I have to go to likes of IAM/CME.

When was the last time you went to IAM or CME? The guys there who handle our files have started using face masks. Perhaps your buddy in the medical section should do the same lest they wil fall sick sooner or later.

Anyway, back to the topic; my friends who have the required hours been told that they are going to be upgraded. It is a good news from them, most of them deserve to be captains just never had the oppertunity, some of them have previous PIC experience in CRJs, ERJs, ATRs but they came to India to fly the bigger equipment. So good job DGCA for expediting their upgrade. Sorry for the guys who doesn't meet the requirements and will have to leave.

You never know DGCA may come out with another ruling to f*ck everyones lives again as some of us were spared by this rule.

[getsetgo]

Desi pilot
5 years or more, no time frame…..its 3rd world.
Don’t tell me you are a beggar pilot from first country and cannot afford 1000 rs = 25 $ for yourself.
Unless you were a MacDonald’s waiter in your country and your country could not provide you a job so you landed up in 3RD world.
Quote
I am not given a choice here I have to go to likes of IAM/CME.

This I will tell you later because you are new to new place.

If these medical centres have started using mask means they are handing people infected by many viruses.

my friends who have the required hours been told that they are going to be upgraded. It is good news from them; most of them deserve to be captains just never had the opportunity


India gives every body chance/opportunity,
pilots did not had chance in there own country, its sad.

Opportunist will go down the gutter. New sanitation system introduced.

That means DGCA is on job…its good and it also shows the country gives due respect For qualification and experience.

You are understanding civil aviation ministry. Are you?

[Sky Dancer]

My definition of a joke would be the same as anyone elses....how else can you explain this ::

^ People who have failed other medicals get a FAA Class 1

^ People who can't clear the exams of other licensing authorities clear the FAA exams...

What else do you call that ???Get real....

[boeingdream787]

Getset.....Although I DO understand that its been more than 5 months now since you turned 12,I still cant pardon you the use of the 'F' word more than once in the same sentence son.
So pls go home,study for those all important grammar lessons i spoke of earlier and stop making a vain attempt to wind a good thread. Its the attempt of a 12 year old too....!! Cause maybe its the same as your mental age bubba...and mental health. Please leave the talking to the men here....
So run along son and ask mommy whats for supper....

BD

[NG ExPat]

Obviously the history books are completely wrong. The first flight and subsequent development of Aviation were not in the USA. From the postings from Getsetgo and Skydancer, I get the impression it was all accomplished in India!!

Sky Dancer regarding your comment on FAA Medicals. Even with some Dim Wit with the DGCA making an highly uninformed decision about me and my medical situation. Canada saw fit to issue me a 1st Class Medical as well. I just guess the rest of the world is wrong and only you and your cherished DGCA are right!!! :hmm:

[getsetgo]

boeing dream

That was the home work I gave you to do some punctuations & rant 10 times
Find some good dreams between the F”s
It was given to you in the simplest form of internationally understandable language
Take care of your mummy.

Its becoming wet.

Take it easy Getwetgo....

Before I decide to go & getwet

When you transmit keep reception switch ON …requirement for RTR operations.

[getsetgo]

ICAO states any way does not recognize FAA, only the flying done on the a/c.
That too if it is genuine not just logging(plenty of cases), that’s the reason when some body applies for CPL he has to go through all exams and medical as prescribed by the state.
All coming for license ISSUE in ICAO states have to pass local test and medicals.
It’s only in INDIA that pilots can fly on with medical fitness certificate issued by other states(genuine or forged no body knows) on FATA which is special clearance given on the discretion of DG.
due to the D.G. they don"t have to do RTR and MEDICALS in the state.

[DesiPilot]

Getsetgo,

My last reply to you, because conversing with you is like :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

I can very well afford 1000 Rs, but what I wanted to know is where is that 1000 Rs going. I can spend the same 1000 Rs in private hospitals and get a world class service. You will not understand this cuz you are so stuck up on third world crap. I think its because of people like you India will remain in the dark ages. I am sure you have heard of the term "Kuye ka Mendak" (a frog in the well) thats what you are my friend. There is a wh
ole world out there and it is definitely different from your well.

And for the record, I am not an expat in India. I am an Indian living in India. Born and bred here, did my education here and now I pay my taxes here. Perhaps I pay more taxes here in a month than you've paid in your entire life (one cannot declare bribe as source of income, can they?)

ICAO states any way does not recognize FAA, only the flying done on the a/c.
What exactly are you talking about here? Like most of your other posts this does not make any sense? FAA licence and medical are acceptable in all the member states. If a member state requires a pilot to do "its own" class one medical it is applicable to all states. Please tell me of one State where it says that if you are holder of an FAA licence and medical you will have to convert but everyone else is welcome to fly without conversion?

You must be wondering why am I taking FAA's side? Just so you know it was a pleasure dealing with the FAA guys. It is a pleasure to fly in the US airspace, I think it is still one the few countries in the world where aviation is still alive (translation for you and your paper pusher friends- aviation is not just commercial flying, it is a lot more than that).

And as for logging of the hours, well, here is surprise for you. Most of the schools who were involved in fake logging were owned by...... take a guess Einstein........... yepp Indians. You think fake logging doesn't take place in India? I think Taxali was stupid and unlucky that he got caught. It happens all over India and in all the schools, even in your estimed IGRUA.

I rest my case here. Like the thread says "Unpredictable DGCA"

[DesiPilot]

Sky Dancer

My definition of a joke would be the same as anyone elses....how else can you explain this ::

^ People who have failed other medicals get a FAA Class 1

^ People who can't clear the exams of other licensing authorities clear the FAA exams...

What else do you call that ???Get real....

Medica;- Well, I say good for them. I don't see any planes falling out of the sky in the USA. Perhaps when I am old and grumpy and cannot hold DGCA and JAA medical I will go to USA so I can continue to fly, not a pessanger jet but a small puddle jumper to keep my blood flowing.

As for exams- don't you think its time India gets real. Who gives a crap about Celestial navigation or moon rise timing in the different parts of the world? In the ages of GPS and other radio aids, these questions are as archaic as the style of navigation. Yes, it was an art, so let it be an art. Its good to know stuff now a days.

And I promise you not one student under the JAA or DGCA scheme will say yes the questions are relevant to practical flying. I think it is old boys network where the authorities says we have been doing it for donkeys years and we will continue to do it. Thank God that for the DGCA ATPL viva they are asking more practical questions now.

[getsetgo]

desi pilot

It’s not spending money; yes there are world class health centers around you.
You are living in the best democratic state and here you are free to vent out. YOU MUST thank to the PPRUNE
And you are free to choose what you want.
Go to the airspace you like no body is stopping you.

[getsetgo]

NG expat
your quote
A ruling was made to stop us from flying past 60 in India. Was that ruling ever published? No, it was simply word of mouth.

stll 1.1 billion flying .At risk:confused:

past 60+ no insurance company has any cover for any body.
try searching some insurance company books to find some material for past 60 rule.

[NG ExPat]

Getsetgo......what the hell are you talking about? From your somewhat unreadable post, I gather that you are saying that over 60 Pilots are uninsured? I hardly think so......otherwise several carriers all over the world are really sticking their respective necks out! So again it would appear that you are talking out of your ass.

[getsetgo]

NG expat
after 55 insurance companies put a TAG on ithe file as HISTORY
or they charge insurance premium more than the life.
how operators flying arround the world .
i have no idea:ugh:
may be operators are paying very high on premium or insurance companies are at win win situation.....in case of any mishap they donot have to shell out a penny to the operator/passengers.
FAA rule says with + 60 pilot there will be some one -60,
you see this globe is round,and rotates.

[black gun]

NG ExPat and DesiPilot, why bother replying to getsetgo's and Sky Dancer's rather strange and immature messages, don't stoop down to their level.

[getsetgo]

black gun
welcome to the circus.

[powerstall]

.. I already got myself a bucket of popcorn to watch this thread... :E

[GSMini]

Hey, hey..ok, back to the topic please!!!

Do any of you, expat copilots, received an official notification about the 1st June stuff? Right now the only thing I know are rumours, and not to worry promises..So I´m even more worried:E

[BUSTRASH]

Rithworth, Parc and aeroproffesion has stopped recruiting. There is a official memo from DGCA INDIA but will this be enforced. Only time will tell

[GSMini]

That´s why I´m asking, because it seems that all agencies stopped recruitment. But I still doubt that they will get rid of us in two months. I mean..it´s just simply not good for their airlines. Maybe they won´t validate again our FATA..but fire us...?

Regards:}

[rdr]

Relax chaps, i've heard that the freeze after June is only for new contracts and that all existing ones will be honoured.

[getsetgo]

rdr

born with wings

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some fresh CPLs going to get in to the business, its not easy walk for them or to feel they are in comfortable zone, as no body will compromise on training and safety.
This abrupt notice is not good (harsh).
It should have been…. those who are joining by June can continue and after June no further induction. Something like that.

this is what i posted on 20th in other thread.

It’s predictable DGCA
Regulations and rule are according to the demand of the industry.
In this case civil aviation ministry.
NOT TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT

[getsetgo]

black gun

When there is transmission between two stations don’t not interrupt,
It can happen when your receiver switch is OFF.
Such things when happen in ICAO states they have to make such decisions on RTR licensing.
Considering traffic volume in the region, mandatory RTR license requirement may come in soon .

[preetham]

Cool down guys cool down, we r just here to share your knowledge regarding the DGCA. So why do you guys have to crib.:=
Peace :ok:

[boeingdream787]

Getwetgo said "welcome to the circus"...and guess who's the four foot clown in the middle...??!!?..:E..:E..;)
OK,back to the thread. I just got the news that the DGCA is seriously considering NOT honouring the pre-signed contracts of all expat copilots.ALL FATA's are being renewed only till May 31st.However,the ministry has taken a very strong stand(kind courtsey Mr Praful Patel,civil aviation minister,who's now related to Vijay Mallya of Kingfisher,thru his daughter's marriage to VJM's son).The stand is very pro expat copilots ie to say that its kind of fair for a change, in its own pyscotic little way.The minister is trying hard to have the rule aplicable for new recruits only.That is to say no fresh expat copilot recruitment from the 1st of June'08 onwards.....but for the time being FATA's are definitely not being renewed beyond May 31st.Kingfisher stands to lose considerably if the rule requires termination of contracts.Besides the numerous court cases that I foresee if this takes shape.....:ooh:

[Sky Dancer]

Hello folks....

Been watching the bull fight from the sidelines and thought I'd step in to add a little more excitement to the whole thing....From what I hear the rule will be implemented....And no VJM is not related to Mr.Patel but he did foot the bill for Mr.Patel's first daughter's wedding in Bangalore...but nothing came off it... ever since then he's just been getting it harder...

Hey DesiPilot...I agree with you man..the FAA guys are really pleasant to deal with and so are the American pilots..really nice guys to fly with...but have you taken time to really read through the history and statistics of accidents regarding FAA registered aircraft...On the GA scene it is really quite astounding and from the 70 - 90s you should do some reading into the accidents that occured in that part of the world...one thing you will notice is that almost all of them happened due to Pilot Error and the basic reason for that was the wrong guy was in the cockpit...their system allows people with no aptitude to fly...these days the technology on commercial aircraft does not allow for too many accidents...but that is what each licencing authority needs to do...create a system where only the right people get in....take a look at Indian aviation...IA has had it;s fair share of accidents....whatever was the reason ?? you had average guys making it into the flight deck...but that's not the worse part..when you have average guys sitting there and thinking that they are God's gift to commercial aviation and start flying like cowboys....dead bodies is what you get...

[alouette3]

Sky Dancer:

I too was watching from the sidelines till now. First off, you paint with too wide a brush, my friend. Comparing aviation in the US to that in India is like comparing Tiger Woods to your local golf club buddy.The US has been and will always be a much more user friendly country for aviation.Even the Europeans acknowlege that.
Coming to comparing accident records: LOL.My friend, you claim to have flown here but you obviously don't have a clue. Do you realize the sheer volume of flying that goes on here? At any given time there are more helicopters flying in the Gulf of Mexico and inland in the US than there are airliners in India. As to airline traffic. During peak hours, it is not unusual to have 4000 airliners in the air at one time across the nation. By sheer volume alone I think the safety record is pretty damn good.In fact it is a tribute to the professionalism and skill of all concerned:FAA, ATC, Pilots Dispatchers etc.If India had that kind of traffic, there would be many more smoking holes in the ground.
Coming to GA. You are joking right? GA is non-existent in India . So what are we comparing ?Does GA in the US have a poor safety record? Absolutely. Should that be grounds for curbing GA in the US?Absolutely not.In fact , GA is the rich fertile ground from which the professionals are recruited.
I guess what the man said was true:Lies, damn lies and statistics.
Take care when you come down from your high horse.
Alt3.

[GSMini]

Boeingdream787, where did you get those news?

:}oh yeah..regards

[getsetgo]

Boeing dream ...
does your transport department allow right hand drive vehicles on the LHD roads?

[coolio545]

any answer to my doubt plss!!??

[getsetgo]

coolio545

am i able to work having PIO Card

for work nobody can stop you.
check up with your employer ,if you can get 2 years post dated cheques towards salary then you don"t have to worry about rules. :ok:

[getsetgo]

alt 3
I too was watching from the sidelines till now. First off, you paint with too wide a brush, my friend. Comparing aviation in the US to that in India is like comparing Tiger Woods to your local golf club buddy.The US has been and will always be a much more user friendly country for aviation.Even the Europeans acknowlege that.

FATA issued by DGCA is most user friendly.
No medicals,l exams etc. ALSO RTR and get onboard .
DGCA not knowing the authenticity of the licences has issued FATAs .
what it looks people are using it and abusing FATA.
AND THE SAME POSTERS IN THE THREAD CONTINUE TO WORK OR TRYING TO HOLD ON TO THE JOB AND TELLING OTHERS NOT TO COME SO THAT THEY CAN SURVIVE .;)

[getsetgo]

ALT 3

In fact it is a tribute to the professionalism and skill of all concerned:FAA, ATC, Pilots Dispatchers etc.If India had that kind of traffic, there would be many more smoking holes in the ground.:ok:

this region is not only handing domestic traffic but international traffic as well.
Go to the ATC you will see on the radar and understand the traffic from west (uk ,EU) And east (japan +) and also from other countries(:})

its pure professionalism and dedication of all associated with aviation industry in the ICAO states :ok:

your transport department is handing mostly domestic traffic.

[alouette3]

Your transport department is handling mostly domestic traffic.

Getsetgo:

I won't even qualify that piece of your latest inanity and insanity with a response.
In fact, it is time for me to be the adult here and leave.
Alt3.

[getsetgo]

ALT3

The only way the DGCA will wake up and smell the cofee, is when the GOI, is hit by economic sanctions by foreign countries. By that I mean a very restricted sanctions such as refusal for AI or Jet or anyone to land in the other countries. A bit extreme? Yes! But that is all that will get the Babus' attention and the corrupt heads might roll. If the expats complain loudly and frequently to their individual governments citing unfair practices, not following ICAO guidelines or whatever ,it might get some action.
Unfortunately,that will happen when it is a cold day in hell.The almighty dollar/pound/yen/yuan is much more powerful than a few hundred pilots.
Alt3.

ABOVE YOR POST

BE MENTALLY ADULT AS WELL

http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/03katrina.htm (http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/03katrina.htm)


GOOD LUCK

[getsetgo]

LOS ANGELES (AP) - A Texas woman who said she was forced to remove a nipple ring with pliers in order to board an airplane called Thursday for an apology by federal security agents and a civil rights investigation.

"I wouldn't wish this experience upon anyone," Mandi Hamlin said at a news conference. "My experience with TSA was a nightmare I had to endure. No one deserves to be treated this way."

Hamlin, 37, said she was trying to board a flight from Lubbock to Dallas on Feb. 24 when she was scanned by a Transportation Security Administration agent after passing through a larger metal detector without problems.

The female TSA agent used a handheld detector that beeped when it passed in front of Hamlin's chest, the Dallas-area resident said.

Hamlin said she told the woman she was wearing nipple piercings. The women then called over her male colleagues, one of whom said she would have to remove the jewelry, Hamlin said.

Hamlin said she could not remove them and asked whether she could instead display her pierced breasts in private to the female agent. But several other male officers told her she could not board her flight until the jewelry was out, she said.


this is the diffrence between aviation ,and the transport department.
And to drive LHD on RHD roads ,only possible .......here.

[johnriketes]

Are they really stopping expat F/O's flying in India after 1st June? Have a read of this:

http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/first-officers-india-flight-crew--10421031.htm

[bad_attitude]

no one is sure as to what the exact implication's are goinna to be.

until the 1st of June comes, all we can do is guess ...

[HiAltFlyer]

The FAA medical is reasonable. I had a first class medical in Korea, now some of their procedures where a joke. I never hear that more pilots with an FAA medical die on final than with other countries medicals. So what is the issue??

[HiAltFlyer]

The TSA hired many of the unemployables in the USA. Fat, uneducated and absolutely no common sense. (I am talking about the supervisors, one can imagine the rest of them) It is just as frustrating to us as all foreigners coming to the US. It truly is a demonstration of the stupidity of some of our government heads
To make somebody remove nipple rings is insane. Unfortunately, we the taxpayers have to pay for the lawsuit.
It can only get better, I hope

[Sky Dancer]

OK Guys..FOR THE RECORD....I retract my statement about the FAA Medical and Exams being a Joke....There seem to be many who find solace in the FAA and how things work over there...so Happy Flying to you all...:ok:

[farrari]

So what is ACTUALLY happening re expat FOs anyoneeeeeeeee:O

[getsetgo]

highAltFLYER
The TSA hired many of the unemployables in the USA. Fat, uneducated and absolutely no common sense. (I am talking about the supervisors, one can imagine the rest of them) It is just as frustrating to us as all foreigners coming to the US. It truly is a demonstration of the stupidity of some of our government heads
To make somebody remove nipple rings is insane. Unfortunately, we the taxpayers have to pay for the lawsuit.
It can only get better, I hope
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4021187)

passengers awareness about the security procedures ?
At security gate, people are doing the job as told to them to ensure safe aviation.
what can be done to improve passenger comfort and safety?
certainly tax payers has the right to inform the govt about the areas which need improvement.
in above situation what could have been done? and how in future such issues can be handled?

[getsetgo]

skydancer

OK Guys..FOR THE RECORD....I retract my statement about the FAA Medical and Exams being a Joke....There seem to be many who find solace in the FAA and how things work over there...so Happy Flying to you all...:ok:

whats your opinion about medical in icao states and IAM/CME?
as many posts in the thread are about medical issues and licencing .

[getsetgo]

ICAO HAS MADE IT MANDATORY FOR PILOTS
AND AIR- TRAFFIC CONTROLLER TO SPEAK ENGLISH
Pilots and air-traffic controllers around the world must now be able to speak basic English after new rules to improve safety came in to effect yesterday (March 6, 2008).
The International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) has introduced a mandatory English exam for hundreds of thousands of people worldwide who control aircraft at international airports. It is hoped the rules will prevent accidents caused by poor communication, such as the death of 349 passengers in 1996 after a mid-air collision near Delhi between a Saudi Arabian Airlines Boeing 747 and an Air Kazakhstan Ilyushin, because the pilots could not understand each other.
London's Telegraph reported that native English speakers will not have to prove their competence, but have been told by the Civil Aviation Authority to make sure they can be understood and refrain from the use of idioms, colloquialisms and other jargon.
ICAO officials said the organisation did not expect perfect English, but the ability to handle emergency situations and ensure that pilots and control towers throughout the world understand each other. David Learmount of Flight International magazine told the Telegraph the new English standard was an important step in improving air safety.
He said if anything "non-standard" happens it was not enough simply to know the technical words, the pilot had to be able to communicate the problem to air traffic controllers and understand them in return.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/pilots-airtraffic-controllers-face-english- tssts/2008/03/07/1204780017433.html (http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/pilots-airtraffic-controllers-face-english-%20tssts/2008/03/07/1204780017433.html)

[MDDog]

Sky Dancer Said:




Hey DesiPilot...I agree with you man..the FAA guys are really pleasant to deal with and so are the American pilots..really nice guys to fly with...but have you taken time to really read through the history and statistics of accidents regarding FAA registered aircraft...On the GA scene it is really quite astounding and from the 70 - 90s you should do some reading into the accidents that occured in that part of the world...one thing you will notice is that almost all of them happened due to Pilot Error and the basic reason for that was the wrong guy was in the cockpit...their system allows people with no aptitude to fly...these days the technology on commercial aircraft does not allow for too many accidents...but that is what each licencing authority needs to do...create a system where only the right people get in....take a look at Indian aviation...IA has had it;s fair share of accidents....whatever was the reason ?? you had average guys making it into the flight deck...but that's not the worse part..when you have average guys sitting there and thinking that they are God's gift to commercial aviation and start flying like cowboys....dead bodies is what you get...

Keep in mind that the level of GA in the US is 5 times larger than the rest of the entire world.. which is to say, I would expect all but a small percentage of accidents in GA to be in the US. Moreover, as a flight Instructor working at a busy flight school in the late 90's in the Southern California area, over a period of 1 year there were 5 fatal accidents ALL involving either European or Indian students..

Yes, at the PPL-Commercial level, and entry level, the US is not a hard place to get a license, but when you've attained 5000+ hours, and been hired and trained by 2 or 3 airlines, having accumulated 5 type ratings or more, and having acted as a captain for 1000 or more hours, you're probably a good pilot and a VERY low risk to hire.. why make it harder than it needs to be?

[getsetgo]

MDDog
as a flight Instructor working at a busy flight school in the late 90's in the Southern California area, over a period of 1 year there were 5 fatal accidents ALL involving either European or Indian students..

why so many fatal accidents in usa only,there are so many schools arround the world doing flying training but accident percentage is low.
is it due to the training stds?
after all some body is learning to fly at a training school and school didnot impart sufficient training to handle the plane.

[rdr]

DESI PILOT & MD DOG

I see three possible different issues you may be trying to address.

1. The Indian selection process for aviators
2. The DGCA vs FAA
3. The standard of the ICAO pilot vs FAA

Its a boom time for Indian aviation, and, everybody wants a slice of the pie, locals and expats. A lot of locals are venturing into previously unchartered waters, kept deliberately to the purview of a select few. This spells a boom time for flying schools around the world. Most flying schools will accept anyone with the almighty dollar, but the challenge will be for the CARRIERSto employ those with the aptitude. And to weed out those without.

In my opinion, the DGCA needs an overhaul. I do see that they are making changes in the right direction in terms of policy, which is good for the industry. However, the functionality, the day to day running, will take much longer to address.

ICAO vs FAA- there is talent, on both sides, definitely. The real depth of training only shows up when you're out of your comfort zone. Like flying into Central Asia or Africa on a dark night with an engine out, terrain & pissing purple. By virtue of a much wider range of experience operating into far flung regions around the world, as well as exposure to "foreigners" in the cockpit, ICAO.

Now, the can of worms are open.

[getsetgo]

MDdog
Keep in mind that the level of GA in the US is 5 times larger than the rest of the entire world.. which is to say, I would expect all but a small percentage of accidents in GA to be in the US. Moreover, as a flight Instructor working at a busy flight school in the late 90's in the Southern California area, over a period of 1 year there were 5 fatal accidents ALL involving either European or Indian students..

keep in mind that some times insurance amount for the aircraft is more than its actual worth,and if it"s a pilot error,then operator gets insurance amount after accident easily.
and when there are European or indian student is involved there are no legal hassels in the country ,so insurance claims sattles faster into operators pocket.

[black gun]

This guy is definatly on the sauce....his liver has to give up soon...should see some of his posts on the Singaporeair Captain recruitment thread.

[Beeraz]

The problem with this gay(getsetgo) is his attitude. And he is not the only one. Some Indians believe they are the best of the best. Most of them are really nice human beings. But those who think they are "the choosen ones" are really hard to deal with. How to "talk" to a guy who thinks he has the right answer for every question? :zzz:

[WIKI44]

This thread is unbelievable. I'd like to make the following points:

1. DGCA are a bunch of monkies. Everyone knows that. There is little point repeating the fact again and again and again.
2. dgca has changed massively in the past 2 years. A lot still needs to change, but they have improved. Please be patient.
3. It is aboslutely ridiculous to extend the general lack of intelligence displayed by the dgca, to the rest of the Indian population.
4. FAA exams are a joke.Recently I had 3 FAA CPL holders trying to convince me that a C-172 can glide 6nm for every 1000 feet of height loss. Infact one assured me that he had glided his C-172 5nm from 1500AGL with no problem. Maybee if he was riding a jetstream.

[fullforward]

well said, but not generalize...FAA is that, DGCA is this...

[rdr]

Lets pour some wide cut aviation fuel over this thread. It may not be the DGCA, but the political players who are playing with fire.



ICAO Audit Of India Finds Fault With Safety, Training

ICAO told India in an audit 18 months ago that it was below world averages
on primary aviation legislation, safety oversight of airlines and the
qualifications and training of its technical personnel.

India responded with initial legislation to expand the powers of the
country's aviation regulatory authority — the office of the Director
General of Civil Aviation (DGCA). But a review of the ICAO's findings by
Aviation Week & Space Technology observes that many issues raised by the
audit, which was conducted in October 2006 and delivered last July, have
gone unanswered. Chances of significant action in the near future are
unlikely because political leaders are focused on elections less than a
year away.

Much of ICAO's report focuses on inadequate staffing levels to properly
oversee India's rapidly expanding commercial aircraft market. But it also
singles out conflicts of interest that could jeopardize safety.

The nation has 385 civil transports in service, with hundreds more on
order. A standard gauge would call for at least 50 flight operations
inspectors to meet current demand. Instead, the Flight Inspection
Directorate has only one position filled to oversee flight operations
across the Indian subcontinent.

Based in Delhi, the DGCA has four regional and 10 sub-regional offices. On
paper it is supposed to have 242 technical officers, but more than 40% of
those positions are vacant. Meanwhile, the Aerodrome Standards Directorate
has a 50% vacancy rate.

"There is no authority in India currently performing regulatory and
surveillance functions of the [air navigation service] providers," the ICAO
report said.

The government-owned Airports Authority of India (AAI) mixes responsibility
of overseeing the nation's air traffic control systems and the
administration and management of more than 80 international and domestic
airports. The fact that the DGCA also is a part-time board member of the
AAI "has the effect of limiting a clear separation of roles between the
aviation regulator" and the nation's air navigation services provider, ICAO
says.

DGCA does not have a communication, navigation and surveillance (CNS)
inspector to oversee maintenance and inspection of CNS facilities. Instead,
it relies on experts from the AAI when its representatives visit AAI
facilities for inspections, ICAO says.

India enacted legislation in November 2007 to expand its Aircraft Act to
permit the DGCA to perform safety oversight. It is to license personnel for
air traffic control and certification, inspection and regulations for
Communication, Navigation, Surveillance/Air Traffic management (CNS/ATM)
facilities. The amended Aircraft Act also raises penalties for
non-compliance. But much of that legislation remains to be carried out. A
runway safety program has not been implemented, and acceptable levels for
ATC safety within airspaces have not been set.

No defined training program has been set for technical personnel performing
safety oversight. Recurring training for licensing staff who oversee flight
operations, cabin safety and dangerous good inspections has not been set.
Although an ad hoc training program has been developed by the airworthiness
directorate, it is not fully implemented, the report says.

An abbreviated field training program has been adopted because of the
urgent need for air traffic controllers in rapidly expanding cities such as
Mumbai, where traffic movements have grown 40% over the past two years and
now exceed 600 per day. The abbreviated training program involves ATC
operators gaining a single rating with the expectation that they will gain
full performance training later, when additional staff is available to give
it to them. Normally, full-performance training is a five-year process.

***************

[Sky Dancer]

a post i made a while ago about the FAA drew a lot of flak...but if you think your story about the C 172 is amazing.....I've got more unbelieveable stories to tell you about the boys and girls that trained to the very "tough and exacting" standards of the FAA....I had to pacify the pro FAA guys by retracting my statement....but if you wanna know the truth...the FAA and it standards are really a joke...I guess we all know that but we just prefer to hide from the truth...so I guess i reopened the can of worms..:p:cool::}:E:D

[getsetgo]

black gun

This guy is definatly on the sauce....his liver has to give up soon...should see some of his posts on the Singaporeair Captain recruitment thread.

then i will also fly on FAA Licence:O:ok:

[black gun]

Sorry mate I am an Australian and fly on a Australian CAA licence, have been doing so since 1989, have met and flown with a number of FAA pilots and I do not see anything wrong with them. Cheers

[getsetgo]

Black gun
Thx for your concern about my liver, I had my medical done with CME New Delhi And got fit certificate from the best doctors who are expert in aviation medicals.
Soon you will be getting letter from DGCA for your organs checks to renew FATA.

My flying experience has been good with every body irrespective of there nationalities. There are pilots flying in India from all over the globe.
I never tried to see the nationality of my colleagues till now. It is not required for flying the a/c, As flying is done according to the AFMs on board.
considering more than 20 states in India and each state having more than one culture, it is just impossible to fly by looking at face, color, or state they come from. Easiest is just follow AFMs .
Mostly I have observed cabin attendants asking expats about there nationality etc.
Next time when I fly with expat colleague ,I will try to look in to the nationalities and if he happens to be FAA pilot ,will check him out and may debrief you about my experience . ( as I was thinking about it, but will not go to this level)
You saw nothing wrong with them , I will look for…… what is right with them
I think they are good so they are here.
.
As you are flying from 1989, You must be International Examiner.
I don’t think there is any need to follow the levels of your aviation world and your flying expertise in ICAO countries.
Thanks for the insight of your flying and licensing state.
No need for me to check any nationality.
AFMs are good enough for a good cockpit.
I can tell you ………..,you are no where near to Australians.

[getsetgo]

RDR

Based in Delhi, the DGCA has four regional and 10 sub-regional offices. On
paper it is supposed to have 242 technical officers, but more than 40% of
those positions are vacant. Meanwhile, the Aerodrome Standards Directorate
has a 50% vacancy rate.

next year you will see vacancy rate 70% to 90%
because there are elections and reserved cat seats cannot be filled by unreserved...........it has to be carried forward till reserved pass minimum grade.

[weido_salt]

getsetgo

"Soon you will be getting letter from DGCA for your organs checks to renew FATA."

Oh jolly good. Nice shot in the foot that will be.

That will effectively ground say 30% of the expats, thereby creating a greater shortage of pilots.

What you are saying in essence, is the DGCA will not be accepting Australian CAA medicals from now on. If that were the case then I guess the Australians could hastily arrange a quick check of their own, to "satisfy their requirements" for all the male Indian student pilots flying around Australia. I guess a prostrate examination with a ** inch finger, would do for starters.

Any idea where you will find the replacements? NASA perhaps?

India either complies with the validation agreements required by ICAO in full or it rejects them in full. The DGCA cannot have it both ways.

BTW. That organ check you had. Did that include your brain?

[black gun]

Once again sorry to dissapoint you Getsetgo, I do not have an Indian licence or FATA...I do not fly in India nor do I have any plans to do so. I guess the best aviation doctors in the world from CME New Delhi will not be looking at my organs any time in the near future.....I also have a current Singapore ATPL I guess that too is no good....bugger hope I do not fall of the pearch soon.

Weido Salt and others I really should not get into a slinging with this clown but could not help myself after reading some of his posts (him haveing a go at FAA piolts, met a few in my time and they are great guys to fly with).....yes I know it is silly....are Indian pilots really like that...rather dissapointing.

[getsetgo]

black gun
if you are passing your medicals in singapore then you will be able to pass in india as well
but looking at your mentally ,you may not get warm welcome here

[getsetgo]

weido salt

Soon you will be getting letter from DGCA for your organs checks to renew FATA."

Oh jolly good. Nice shot in the foot that will be.

That will effectively ground say 30% of the expats, thereby creating a greater shortage of pilots.

What you are saying in essence, is the DGCA will not be accepting Australian CAA medicals from now on. If that were the case then I guess the Australians could hastily arrange a quick check of their own, to "satisfy their requirements" for all the male Indian student pilots flying around Australia. I guess a prostrate examination with a ** inch finger, would do for starters.

Any idea where you will find the replacements? NASA perhaps?

India either complies with the validation agreements required by ICAO in full or it rejects them in full. The DGCA cannot have it both ways.

BTW. That organ check you had. Did that include your brain?

you are right
they check brain also and they are fully qualified aviation experts cirtified by ICAO.
so far all licences are accepted for issue of FATA
but soon once the backlog of pilots doing medicals is over i pridict all will be put throu same tests.
Max Health care and appolo are doing about 50-75 candidates daily bases,once they are done with back log ....
..these hospitals will be so free to tell DGCA ......give me more
understand these are private hospitals and they are in bussiness
each hospital daily doES 100,000 + Rs bussiness ,printing medical reports with latest world class Zero error machines.

thats the reason i always said donot change the system....for sake of all

before because CME couldnot handle any more candidates so DGCA had no option but to issue fata based on medicals from other states

now if you guess 30% will not pass...i can tell you those 30% are printing there medical cirtificates at home.
and coming to 3rd world bribing DGCA babus and flying.

DGCA first job is SAFETY
rest comes later
shortage of pilots not at all DGCA concern but the airlines..............

And if you do medicals at IAM you can walk in to NASA and see the world from 30km above the earth because these doctors are expert in aviation medicine +medical for asrtonauts.

[weido_salt]

O. I. C.

Yes you are right.

The DGCA needs verification from the issuing authority, before an FATA is issued or renewed. If they don't trust the verification process, then why would checking a pilot's organs, rectify the situation? Would it not be a little more sensible to check with the issuing AME, who issued the current medical certificate? This can easily be done.

In the case of a failed medical, it should be on record and be shown during the license verification process, should it not?

Or is it a case of "now let's start hassling Captains" and free up some LHS's, for the 500 hour TT whizkids to show their "metal" and get off on a one way ego trip?

I'll watch from afar.

Where's my tin hat darling?

[getsetgo]

:O
there you are
now DGCA is asking mobile no. of the doctor who issues the cirtificate.
DGCA becoming hitech like FAA
3RD WORLD WAS I THINK OKKKK
now every 15 year old kid in 1.1 billion population is looking to become PILOT
if DGCA becomes efficient like FAA then.......
in 2 years india will be out sourcing pilots......like FAA does
it will fullfil aviation miniters statment in parliament for not having Expats

many pilots will be galaventing at MG ROAD
some will be serving tea and coffee to the babus joging to there desks....
because no coffee dispencers are installed yet.
and salaries will vanish
airlines will be picking and offerring peanuts for good job:ugh:

best is not to change the system until you know the system
do the job and go for jog is better

[weido_salt]

Oh quiet.

Jogging of course is great exercise, for those more able than I.

My trouble is my left leg. You see, it is wooden. :suspect: Just between you and I. Well a leg ain't an organ is it? You know how these things can get blown out of all proportion, so please keep mum on that.;)

[getsetgo]

weido_salt (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=161640)

yep i kept mum for 155 posts but forced to, write these side effects of making DGCA to first world standreds..
DGCA is pridictable but aviation world not so much some times it takes the thermals and soars but at times max thrust also fails to take it out of CB.

[rdr]

organ check, falling off the perch, too much sauce.................. keep it coming boys.
['m truly enjoying this one.

[getsetgo]

Home (http://www.rediff.com/) > India (http://www.rediff.com/india.html) > Business (http://www.rediff.com/money/index.html) > Business Headline (http://www.rediff.com/money/biz.htm) > Report

Aviation staff set to get peanuts in salary hike

Manisha Singhal in Mumbai | April 30, 2008 01:00 IST

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After hikes of 20-25 per cent in salary last year, aviation industry executives say increments, including those of pilots and executives, are not expected to be more than 3-6 per cent this year.
Most major carriers -- barring Deccan (which has a August-September financial year) and Kingfisher airlines -- do not agree on the figure.
Hitesh Patel, executive vice-president, Kingfisher, said, "We have not yet decided on our increments but will follow the industry benchmarks."
Manpower costs add up to 14 per cent of the total cost for airlines as compared with six to eight per cent for other sectors. Manpower costs have risen in excess of 100 per cent over the past four years, according to HR executives in airlines.
"We might be looking at a figure of six per cent as an annual raise this year," said an executive at one of the private carriers not wanting to be named. Insiders at low-cost carriers peg the rise at three per cent.
"Post 9/11, airlines handed a token sum of Rs 500 as raise. In the present scenario, the airlines are bleeding and there is little difference between a raise of zero or three per cent. So, some of the carriers might decide against a raise this year," said an HR executive.
Analysts say that companies are looking at reducing their manpower costs in order to tide over losses of $1 billion expected by the financial year-end.
And while they have no control over fuel costs, which have hit new highs (they constitute for 45% of the total operational cost), they have no choice but to trim other costs where there is some leeway still.
"Due to cost pressures, airlines would be looking at cutting manpower costs as there is little likelihood of a rationalisation in the cost of aviation turbine fuel. So, reducing staff costs is an option airlines will consider," said Aniket Mhatre, aviation analyst at brokerage firm Prabhudas Liladhar.
"With foreign airlines entering Indian skies, wage demands have become internationally competitive. As a result, our manpower costs have gone up by 100 per cent over the past three-four years. Employee costs are a major concern with airlines today," said S Chalke, senior general manager (HR), Jet Airways [Get Quote (http://money.rediff.com/money/jsp/quote_process.jsp?query=jet airways (india) ltd)].
The pressure on salaries is due to two reasons. First, the overall costs are going up even as carriers are unable raise revenues by hiking fares due to excess capacity. On the other hand, the shortage of co-pilots, cabin crew, engineers is now more or less over.
Commercial pilot licence holders are exceeding the required number. For an industry demand of 3,000, there are now 5,000 CPL holders waiting in the wings.
"Six months back, we received 600 applications for first officers against a small number of openings. Now, we have received 200 applications and we are not even looking out for first officers," said a senior executive with Jet Airways.
Similarly, cabin crew academies have created more trained people than were earlier available for hiring," said a Simplifly Deccan executive.
Many carriers are delaying the delivery of new aircraft and toning down their growth plans in order to reduce losses.
Hence, the pressure of hiring and the yawning gap between demand and supply is also easing out.
"Earlier, projected manpower scarcity was pushing wages up. Now, due to the surplus employee situation, airlines cannot afford to increase the employee costs too much," said Kuljit Singh, partner, Ernst & Young.


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i had written yesterday that salaries will vanish
airlines will offer peanutsin this news now is a word HIKE .....it may vanish soon

[uditthapar]

the FATA rule has been taken away because of the Indigo...they get all the expat FO's from US and the Indian Commercial pilots dont have jobs....this was complained by a lot of ppl and then DGCA had to put an end to this.

[GSMini]

All expat FO´s in IndiGo from US ? You basically have no idea of what you´re talking about.

By the way, I heard that a year extension is more than probable..any updates on this?

Regards!

[flightknight]

This thread has avalanched itself beyond my expectations. I had no intention of bashing up the DGCA or Indian Aviation when I started this thread. Anyhow, I hope that some of the contributions will help make changes in the corridors of Indian Aviation.:D

[fractional]

Airlines need type-rated expat pilots
Air India has a shortage of pilots, particularly those qualified to fly Boeing 777 aircraft. In fact, this shortage of Boeing 777 type-rated pilots has caused India's national flag carrier to temporarily suspend its passenger service between Kolkata and London, a route served by Boeing 777 aircraft. An airline official in Kolkata noted that, if not remedied soon, the pilot shortage could affect Air India flights to Chicago, New York and London from Delhi and Mumbai as well.

Air India, a government-owned carrier, currently employs about 800 pilots, 117 of whom are foreigners. Since there are too few Indian nationals with the needed type ratings and command experience on the Boeing 777, Air India employs ex-pat pilots to fill the vacancies. The Careers page on the Air India website specifies a current need for more ex-pat pilots who are already qualified to fly B777-200/300 aircraft. Online applications for these positions are being accepted now.

So, how did this situation come about? According to an article about the pilot shortage in the Times of India, the current crisis began when Air India's three-year contract with 20 pilots expired this month. Another 10 pilots have just retired. Most of those pilots were Boeing 777 commanders.

An article in The Hindu quoted an Air India spokesman who said that Air India was "expediting the pace of training of pilots and three Captains were turning out every month to fly B-777 aircraft." The carrier also sends young pilots for training to flying schools in the U.S., but this does little to fill the immediate need for experienced aircraft commanders. Thus, the airline is seeking qualified pilots from abroad.

Pilot poaching is another issue that comes into play. The article in The Hindu elaborates:

Some of the senior commanders told The Hindu that despite an unwritten “no-poaching” pact among airlines in the country as many as 31 pilots left JetLite, formerly Air Sahara, and now acquired by Jet Airways as its low-cost arm, over the past two months, and joined Kingfisher Airlines, which is an on a expansion spree after its promoter Vijay Mallya acquired a stake in Air Deccan.

“All these pilots who were operating Boeing 737 will be able to fly wide bodied jets like A-340 after a brief spell of training on simulators. The same pool of trained pilots could have been available to Air India for its B-777 fleet as it would have required just four sessions on simulators. As a majority of pilots are on contracts, there is no question of overtaking anyone’s seniority,” industry sources said.
The Hindu notes that private carriers in India employ ex-pat pilots, too. Jet Airways employs about 100 foreign pilots, IndiGo has 84 foreigners as pilots and Paramount Airways has 11, while cargo carrier Blue Dart has 10 foreign pilots, according to the Civil Aviation Ministry. In addition, some 900 of the 2,500 pilots employed in the civil aviation sector are foreigners. About five per cent are above 60 years and are from the U.S. The retirement age for pilots in India is now 65.
Posted by Bobbie Sullivan of Professional Pilot News Blog

[farrari]

Are these for expat Capts and FOs on the 777 ???????????? as I thought this had been stopped for expats.:)

[flightknight]

will a civilian director be able to clean up the corruption corridors in the DGCA ??

DGCA technocrats criticise appontment of non-techie as DG- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3228703,prtpage-1.cms)

[Kingfisher320]

What a waist of Indian nationals money. DGCA and its stupid 1934 rules and worthless minds...what a joke.

[Rotorhead1026]

What a waist


Nice pun, if intended ... :)

It seems that the appointment has the entrenched bureaucrats screaming, which must be good. He'll encounter a high level of resistance to change. If he's given carte blanche he may do some good up there, but he'll need to almost literally dynamite the place and build it back up (and what a bonfire that place would make!). We'll see.

[Lovesickguy]

Many of you folks here on the post are ABSOLUTELY Right ON !! The DGCA is without a doubt the most corrupt, the most STUPID and the most uninformed regulatory agency in the World !!

When I used to work for the FAA many years ago, we wrote a letter to them of a ''serious nature'' and NEVER received a reply back from them.. NEVER !!! WOW !! the ICAO should really look into that as should anyone 'still not corrupt' in the Indian Govt.... ( FAT CHANCE !! )

Also the Indian companies should throw a trantrun of a MAJOR scale and wipe the smile of their stupid face ... POOR SHOW INDEED... VERY UNPROFESSIONAL... (What am I say??? there is no such thing in Indian Govt!!) LSG..

[Lovesickguy]

Many of you folks here on the post are ABSOLUTELY Right ON !! The DGCA is without a doubt the most corrupt, the most STUPID and the most uninformed regulatory agency in the World !! Or as they say in India... Total Chutia !!! Harami !!

When I used to work for the FAA many years ago, we wrote a letter to them of a very ''serious nature'' regarding a violation by an Indian Carrier to JFK... and NEVER received a reply back from them.. NEVER !!! WOW !! the ICAO should really look into that as should anyone 'still not corrupt' in the Indian Govt.... ( FAT CHANCE !! )

Also the Indian companies should throw a trantrun of a MAJOR scale and wipe the smile of their stupid face ... POOR SHOW INDEED... VERY UNPROFESSIONAL... (What am I say??? there is no such thing in Indian Govt!!) LSG..

[getsetgo]

love sick guy

relax.....and try to enjoy the show,show is on, horror or comedy,
get well and come out of your infatuation.
donot increase your BP, there are already new rules on medical standreds for BP and BMI.

[Rotorhead1026]

lovesickguy:

and NEVER received a reply back from them.


getsetgo:

relax.....and try to enjoy the show,show is on, horror or comedy,
get well and come out of your infatuation.
donot increase your BP, there are already new rules on medical standreds for BP and BMI.


Most likely getsetgo is the DGCA guy in charge of answering emails ... :)

[getsetgo]

this id GETSETGO was made couple of years ago when foreign pilots were looking to come to india,
so i tought this is the perfect ID to encourage/welcome them to see this part of the world.
over the period many are , some are happy and some not so happy ,and most are paddling the boats in the same pond.
keep on
continue approach.......................
getsetgo

[doubleu-anker]

Lovesickguy

"we wrote a letter to them of a very ''serious nature'' regarding a violation by an Indian Carrier to JFK... and NEVER received a reply back from them."

This my friend is parr for course as far as most of the Indian "organisations" are concerned. You only get a response when it is in their interest for them to do so, or there is something in it for them.

DA

[getsetgo]

DA
did you saw his letter?
or LSG just shooting stars in well lit night.....
lets share his letter writting expertise at least..

[getsetgo]

what i understand is there are few pilots not happy with the job...but still continue to go .......
....let some body else ......let them come in
to see the first hand info about every thing you have been talking about....

[rdr]

get set go,
we are talking about aviation, not running a chai stall where you can turnover employees everyday.
all pilots are entitled to their say on this forum in the interest of continued safety, without having to change jobs. there may be some however, who overstep the boundaries. these are quickly put in their place by others.
in aviation, there should be no grey areas. if some appear, they should be quickly removed.
i do believe that the subject in hand is the DGCA, and personally, though they are waking up and heading in the right direction, they do have a long long way to go.

[getsetgo]

rdr

When I used to work for the FAA many years ago, we wrote a letter to them of a ''serious nature'' and NEVER received a reply back from them.. NEVER !!! WOW !! the ICAO should really look into that as should anyone 'still not corrupt' in the Indian Govt.... ( FAT CHANCE !! )

when some body writes this he should give some info on the safety issue he reported to DGCA.
share but donot scare others who trying to see this part of the world.

DGCA is improving,it will take its own time to MEET/reach the expectations of every body there is no need to get hypertensive about the DGCA.Thats what i conveyed to LSG.

but when normal processing time of 90days(from the date DGCA recieves application by registered post,there is no hand dilivery,personal visit allowed) for licencing will become 24 hours?:ugh:
all work is by mail service.
some times mail dilivery never dilivers for months.

wait wait and wait then get frustrated then go for BP control/monitor.
what other improvments you know lets share them.

[getsetgo]

FLIGHT KNIGHT
ur post........................................................ ............................

Not going to happen
intresting to see who follows whom?

DGCA follows FAA,JAR or ......JAR,FAA FOLLOWS DGCA

Despite a tense relationship with the FAA, US pilots do not have to contend with corruption when it comes to getting their licenses. The FAA is staffed with some of some of the brightest aviation minds - design engineers, veteran pilots, ex-astronauts etc..
It really depends on the quality of the folks running an organisation. So i guess the DGCA will need to clean up and follow the FAA or JAR.
............................................................ ........................................


flight knight

looking at the other threads on this website you are must add some printing/copying proffessionals.
Some good doctors who can doctor the log books.
i look forward to those quality folks........lets share with all those hitech shops.

if you look up in your thread i had explained the problem ICAO countries face in general.

getsetgo

[flightknight]

Officer cries foul as DGCA chooses head-India-The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Officer_cries_foul_as_DGCA_chooses_head/articleshow/3308094.cms)

[getsetgo]

my order is tea with fresh milk and two sugar.:ok:
no TEA dispensers in DGCA.
thanks
keep it up, good job.
change is always good.

[flightknight]

Anyone out there with the latest DGCA juice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????

[bad_attitude]

negative on the juice. that's because the organization never changes ... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[justlooking_tks]

The DGCA, in keeping with tradition, have dreamed up and implemented this overnight.

According to a mate down on the sub continent, any expat who is employed on flying duties and leaves India, apart from on flying duties, will have to re apply for a security clearance, before recommencing flying duties. 6 weeks minimum I am told.:D:D:D

If you are an expat looking for work in India, look elsewhere I would suggest.

[GSMini]

Both things are absolutely correct. DGCA made it again...

[condorbaaz]

supposed to be for SECURITY... as if ideas cannot be communicated on the net..

[sky jet]

I am home on leave now and supposed to return on the 29th. Have not heard anything from the company or any of the other expats that are in country now. Please give a source for this info so that we can follow up with it.

Jet

[justlooking_tks]

I have been emailed a copy of the DGCA document. It is possibly on the DGCA website but I haven't looked.

If anyone wants a copy pm me your email address and I will forward the attachment.

[NGFellow]

If this "gem" is implemented then it will effectively ground 50% or more of the expat Capts here in India because most of us are on ON/OFF contracts of various durations. Either they did not realize this or else they are doing it on purpose to get rid of expats by virtue of red tape. In the end the airlines will be the ones paying because if you are on contract and return from leave, they will have to pay the guarantee monthly amount because you are willing and available to fly. The fact that they can't use you because your security clearance has expired is, well "their problem."
Why doesn't the DGCA and the Govt just say that expats are not welcome here anymore? It would be simpler!! Truly a country of contrasts--Chandrayan to the moon, but............the rest???:ugh:

[rdr]

Whoa NG Fellow, dont get your knickers in a twist
You check, double check, and triple check.
Hang on till you get the real message instead of relying on others or the press.
Its a load of crap, belueve me.

[Rotorhead1026]

If anyone wants a copy pm me your email address and I will forward the attachment.


Just copy from the document and post it here.

[NGFellow]

The operative word I used was "IF." Nontheless your point is well taken:ok:. As Rotor rightly said--post the attachment.

[justlooking_tks]

Post the attachment? How? The document is in PDF format. I can post picture format onto pprune but not pdf (via photobucket.)

Any suggestions how I can convert pdf to say jpeg i will oblige. Copy and paste does not work as you are well aware.

Failing that, pm me your email address, assuming you guys have email addresses and I will email said document. This ruling is true as you really couldn't make it up.

[Rotorhead1026]

Copy and paste does not work as you are well aware.

No, actually I'm not aware - I just pm'd you the technique.

assuming you guys have email addresses and I will email said document.

We all have email addresses. If the option is not available it's because the user doesn't want to get pm's in that fashion.

[justlooking_tks]

Sorry if I have done wrong.

All I did was relay information that was post to me from an expat working in India. He is concerned that it will cost him his job.

I posted this on the thread as I thought it may be of interest, as he is not computer literate and doesnt do pprune. I was not aware that I had to succumb to demands of posters how I should or should not confirm this information!

I dictate the terms here, not anyone else. If you want a copy of the said document, you will abide by my terms, go see the DGCA or get :mad:!

If you lot are so :mad: paranoid as to be too scared to give me your email so I can pass on to you this info via an attachment, then too bad.

[GSMini]

Relax guys!!

I´m an expat working in India (some days left anyway), and I must say I also saw the document.

I DO NOT have a copy, but it´s absolutely true. Airlines are fighting against that document, ´cause they know that a lot of their expat captains will resign under that conditions.

I´m not sure if the ruling is in force right now, but be sure it will.

Be prepared for the bad news...as usual!

Regards:}

[Rotorhead1026]

I dictate the terms here, not anyone else. If you want a copy of the said document, you will abide by my terms, go see the DGCA or get !Errr, kinda sounds like you WORK for the DGCA, ol' buddy. :eek:

If you lot are so paranoid as to be too scared to give me your email so I can pass on to you this info via an attachment, then too bad.Nice. Yup, yup, I'm too scared to give you my email. Fear has always worked well for me.

I never said the doc didn't exist - I just wanted to see it. Somebody will post it eventually. Why you can't or won't is certainly none of my business.

I´m an expat working in India (some days left anyway), and I must say I also saw the document.Thank you, my friend. If you get a copy put it up here, willya? I'll do the same. :):):)

Time will tell ... never a dull moment. :ugh:

[Holycow]

I uploaded the new document to my web page, feel free to download :ok:

http://www.ipilot.cz/photos/shop/dgca.pdf

[Rotorhead1026]

Thank you. It seems like if you go back for a medical or simulator you're okay; otherwise, you've got to be "rescanned". The letter says the airline has to certify all this at the time your FATA is renewed, so it would SEEM to be necessary "only" once per year. We'll see how this is being interpreted. I can think of multiple issues, but the way the policy just "popped up" would indicate it's being used as an obstacle - leave India at all and you're hosed. Most of us are going to figure it isn't worth the bother, I'm afraid, and that's just what the DGCA wants. Be careful what you wish for ...

I converted the document to .jpg but I can't upload it yet on this *&^%$
low-bandwidth connection ... sorry.

[captaan]

files at dgca are full of dust.
PDF format:confused:
rotorhead you are working hard,how many formats you will turn to jpeg?
now companies are looking excuses to get rid and trying to find various options.
finding it difficult to say bye, and they will use all the loopholes available in the system to do what they want.
take care

[TidaBisa]

Is India truly a democracy? For example making Indian pilots give six months notice before they join another airline in India. It is no business of the DGCA when it concerns a persons individual right to employment.
Yeah, my employer will be real nice to me once he knows I am leaving and he has six months to F with me:=

[captaan]

tida bisa
yea its a true democarcy since 1937
same format till now.
six months notice period(bonded for life)
so they say live n let live..................

[alouette3]

Captaan:
Slight correction: democracy since 1947.:)
Alt3

[Nevrekar]

Great way to start your probation on pprune.

[flightknight]

Interestingly, the only tag the DGCA and aviation industry in India has earned is ----- "UNPREDICTABLE".

[Rotorhead1026]

Unpredictable !!!!thats who you are--Nat King Cole.....

Actually, Nat's song was "Unforgettable", but that term applies too! :)

[captaan]

TIDA BISA


Is India truly a democracy? For example making Indian pilots give six months notice before they join another airline in India. It is no business of the DGCA when it concerns a persons individual right to employment.
Yeah, my employer will be real nice to me once he knows I am leaving and he has six months to F with me:=

6 months notice period is LAW OF THE LAND.
so it is followed by DGCA.
6 months notice has nothing to do with democracy.

your view about 6 months F is correct.
in case of Indian pilots, its like bonded ,because of 6 months licence validity.

[Schumi - Red Baron]

looking at your threads it looks that countries you have masioned are going to loose the bussiness they are getting from india.
all these countries are looking to sell there aeroplanes /FIGHTER JETS to indian airforce,
looking to sign nuclear deal with india.
and also increase more bussiness relations with india.
if some body gives you magic stick i dont knw what will happen?

if one airline closes in india in next two years all your bright ideas will go waiste.
it looks as if you are living in india and not happy with the way things move india.
best thing is in ROME do as the ROMANS do.
THAT IS WHAT PROBABLY DGCA IS TRYING TO DO


Mate buying fighter jets from other countries....Whats ur point in that...That india is incompetent in making their own fighter jet....Is that the point u r trying to convey.....

Nuclear deal is something india will be benefiting from along with other countries.Thats good for the world as a whole including india.

india had all kind of sanctions after becoming nuclear
today all foreign countries are trying to tie up with india for nuclear tech.



How on earth does that helps the aviation safety and smooth running....And i think you should read the indian audit report saying that india is still way behind in fulfilling its own need....Read the facts by world bank....It would be a bit of eye-opener...

Indian aviation is suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is the phenomenon where people with little knowledge (or skill) tend to think they know more than they do. In a series of experiments performed by Justin Kruger and David Dunning of Cornell University, they found that:

— Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.

— Incompetent individuals fail to recognise genuine skill in others.

— Incompetent individuals fail to recognise the extremity of their inadequacy.