Great Wall Airlines - Shanghai

[mauijim]

Hello guys,

Does anyone know about Great Wall airlines current recruitment, packages and work lifestyle?

Appreciate hearing your views and suggestions.

Thanks..:D..MJim

[gengis]

Steer well clear. Don't touch it with a barge pole

[Mr. Green]

Genghis Khan,

Care to elighten us on GW?

[mauijim]

Gengis, thanks for the reply. Would you mind elaborating on the comments posted. Will be much appreciated.

Cheers and thanks.
Mj.

[gengis]

1) Oft changing schedules with little notice;

2) Serious politics going on with a whole host of different "groups", the effects trickling down un-imaginably into your flight deck depending on who you are flying with on that day;

3) SIA management. If you don't like what you heard about SIA, you'll not want to be here;

4) Poor maintenance. All kinds of MELS, only 2 a/c opertaing while cannibalising from a 3rd aircraft;

5) No travel benefits. Your "Travel Allowance" would just about get you the lowest economy ticket that you found on priceline.com with the help of Capt Kirk;

Just a few, to whet your appetites

[akistar]

Hi Genghi,

Heard from some SQ folks that GWA is in total mass chaos. The boss, in charge of the pilots, is spending company funds, laying on his girlfriend.

A recent hiccup when a pilot tries to leave, the same boss is trying to claim 5 million RMB from him for damages.

Any truth in these.

[Lockeed Tristar]

Hey Gents,
Apparently this air line is a "dump", anyway I have an interview schedulled for April in Singapore, any news on that process?
Does any one that actually flyes for them can help me out with valid info and not rumors?
Any help would be appreciated!!!
Thanks

[mauijim]

Gengis, thanks again. I will be detouring the other side.

Cheers and happy flying.
mj

[Left Coaster]

Tristar...which airline are you interviewing with? SQ...SQ Cargo or The Wall?
Cheers

[Lockeed Tristar]

The interview is in SIN but for a job with GWA, that is why I am looking for some info about it!!!

[B74567]

Once you step foot in a Chinese airline you will find it VERY difficult to leave. There is an acute shortage of pilots in China. Getting a pilot to join is difficult enough. So they will try by all means to keep you. Going to another Chinese airline is near impossible. There is a HUGE penalty if one hops from one Chinese airline to another within China - more than a million rmb. And if you want to leave China for another foreign airline you will face extreme difficulties. So be forewarned ...

[gengis]

TriStar: those are not rumors.

[Lockeed Tristar]

Guys,

Thank very much!
Could you be more specific on how it works?
Do they treat you fairly?
How is the life style in shanghai?
Can you comute?

Thanks for the help

[Rotorhead1026]

B74567 wrote:



And if you want to leave China for another foreign airline you will face extreme difficulties.



Could you explain this? Will you be ... "Shanghaied"? :)

[akistar]

Understood that they not not able to recruit anyone for 2.5 years, due to extreme contract conditions. Half the force has resigned since started, including a recent 35% resignation.

According to my pals working in SQ, you will breeze tho' the interview. You will be given a letter of offer, with all the promises in the world that you would like to hear. You will be so happy that you have finally landed on a job of a life-time. You happily resign from your present company.

After joining GWA, you will be offered a Chinese contract of 5 slavery years, where all the great things and promises, are not inside and reduced. Education is not enough. Local farmers' medical coverage. No dental. No LOL coverage. Housing is not sufficient. No uniforms. No travel benefits. Commuting is difficult with the many flight delays, and roster changes. Salary is different between each other. Max flying for Captain; Min or no flying for FOs. All off days are SQ-styled -- put on standby. No promotion legally for FOs - they tell you sweet stories. What do you do next, the mafia just smirks at you. You file a lawsuit -- no way -- the Singaporean Python and GWA has strong connections in Mainland China and Singapore. Meantime, he spends the money he saved from you laying on his GF. You try to contact him, he does not answer your phone calls and emails. He never goes to his office. When you finally get to see him after months, he smirks at you. You ask him about all the stuffs and problems, he will repeat all his great promises and stories during recruitment. You have your doubts and goes off....the whole cycle repeats again and again.

You want to leave --- no way....Mafia makes you pay the 5 million RMB for poaching fees in China. Heard that GWA is the only one, doing this to expatriates. Go to another country, yes - he will spead bad rumours about you in the aviation arena, and to your next employer.

Singapore python has virtually bankrupted and destroyed the livelihood of some of his pilots.

I steer well clear of GWA after all these insiders' stories from my pals working in SQ. Why should I put myself and family in the situation that my good pals has warned me on.

AK

[gengis]

Tristar,

You are not understanding or comprehending what has been said at all. You asked the questions and the answers to all of them - apart from life in Shanghai - have already been given. They are, emphatically, NO.

Now please go there if you wish, then come back here in 9 months to tell your stories of what has happened.

[B74567]

My SQ pals tells me that landing a job there is not a problem. The interview is a formality. You will feel welcomed. You will feel wanted ... until you sign on the dotted line. You may like it there. But if you don't then the nightmare begins. "Freddy Kruger" (of Nightmare on Elm Street) will even look harmless then.

[akistar]

Heard of a recent thread from some folks in SIA. Can any kind souls from GWA confirm this. Seems like it is getting out of control...

An expatriate pilot resigns recently, after being accepted by a HK company. After the three months' notice, GWA magt, in short Singapore Python, demands 1.9 million RMB for compensation from that pilot.

That pilot is an experienced pilot with thousands of hours. Singapore Python bonds this chap for three years at about USD90,000 reducing bond, with a bank guarantee of SGD35,000 for the B747-400 type-rating.

After two years with the company, he cannot accept all the ****s in GWA and found a better job. He resigns. He paid USD30, 000, inclusive of his SGD 35,000 bank guarantee, to GWA. Another USD30,000 is paid by that HK company to GWA as a kind gesture to that chap, on the basis that he joins that HK company. That clears his bond.

However, at the end of the three months' notice, GWA's Singapore Python refuses to give this chap a release letter, to indicate that he no longer has any contractual issues with GWA. Singapore Python demands a ransom of 1.9 million RMB for this letter.

The HK company is operating Chinese registered aircrafts. Thus, the HK company requires that poor chap to get a release letter from GWA. This requirement is only a recommendation by the authorities to reduce proaching of local Chinese pilots. It is the intention of the local civil aviation authorities that this recommendation only applies to local, and not expatriates. Nevertheless, without the release letter, the HK company cannot receive that chap's 'employment records' in China. Which means, he cannot start work with the HK company.

Filing a law suit, would take this poor chap one to two years to settle. Meantime, he will have no income. Thus, he opts to withdraw his resignation from GWA. Singapore Python agrees to accept this chap, only at the bottom of the salary scale. Furthermore, he is not returning the USD60000 back to that poor chap. They intend to keep the money. Thus, even if that poor chap stays in GWA to continue his service for another one or two years, GWA is not returning any single cents of the USD 60,000 to him. He now owns another USD 30,000 to the HK company.

Wonder what happens next....

Also heard that even for guys who has no bond or contractual issues, GWA is still not issuing this letter. As such, these guys will never be able to find another job in China forever in their lifetime.

The good news is Air China, China Eastern, Hainan Airlines, Shenzhen Airlines, China Cargo, Jade Cargo, OKair is not applying this ruling to expatriate pilots. In fact, only GWA is doing this..........

AJ

[Genghis2]

AJ,

It is most unfortunate that what you heard is true....

Genghis

[vcxzhps]

Does this mean I can't go to another China's airline once I join Great Wall? This don't sound so good.

[Alexander the Great]

Well, you can give it a try and let the rest of us know, eh? ;)

[powerstall]

...hmmm after reading that post regarding the 747 chap... i guess i'll be taking my coat and leave this up to you guys.... :}

[expatdriver]

heard that they make you sign 2 contracts. 1 english, 1 chinese. but in case of any dispute, the chinese must be followed. now, how do you know if the chinese and english contracts are the same if you are not able to read chinese?

how is the T&C compared to other carriers in the region?

any other inputs on this?

[Gooneybird]

All contracts involving a non Chinese speaker/reader should read "The binding language of this contract shall be English." Even English teachers get that!

[Alexander the Great]

Well be thankful they didn't offer to base you in Tibet... :ugh:

then again, maybe the per diem for Lhasa would be quite high....... "Personal Safety Allowance" ;)

[akistar]

Heard from mates in SQ,

You don't actually see the actual legal binding chinese contract with GWA until you are six months into the system. This is inclusive of the type-rating and chinese APTL conversion.

By then, it is too late when all the promised terms & conditions in the original letter of offer are reduced by half.

AJ

[Genghis2]

AJ

That's right. SIA cargo would have bonded you and collected SGD35000, or SGD55000 from you as bank guarantee.

Your legal English contract with SIA cargo expires once you have completed your conversion training after 6 months. You will be transferred to GWA, where you will now be thrown with an actual legal Chinese contract, with reduced terms & conditions that were originally promised and advertised.

You can't really do much at this stage, after having committed yourself for six-eight months to Greatwall. You can leave, if you are willing to lose your SGD35000, or SGD55000. Signing the Chinese contract, will also lead you into a 1.9 million RMB debt if you decide to leave later.

Genghis

[Fair.Pilot]

Genghis2,

you just told some scary ghost stories!:eek:

[gengis]

It's all true

[akistar]

Fair Pilot....

That's probably the facts. These are genuire facts, according to my good folks in SQ.

And no pilot has joined GWA since mid-2006.

Do you believe they are facts now? The statistics tells itself.

AJ

[Fair.Pilot]

If that's the case, I personally think we have the obligation to warn other pilots against joining GWA at all cost!

[akistar]

Heard the latest thread from SQ pals,

8 days on, 6 days off for transmile MD11 pilots

no bond

These were the new carrots offered to the furlough transmile pilots

Any truth?

AJ

[abtz]

it is better to ask them the package before you leave

[abtz]

hi
you better ask the company the whole package before you leave .

[abtz]

is there anybody who can tell us the good side of GWA?
i read the bad side up to now.

[gengis]

The only good side is flying those "helicopters" in Shanghai..... if you know what i mean ;)

Those SQ guys will be able to fill you in about this... Heard one of them went for his "training" and ended up having to passenger back home, after she "crash landed on him"! I think they'd call that a "Shanghai auto-rotation".... :D:E

[fullforward]

Would you mind to elaborate better on your statement? It looks like chinese for the non initiated...

After what we learned here could be anything positive on a miserable outfit like this? Chinese contracts, lies, prision??? It is a shame somebody could even consider join such a mafia!!!!

[gengis]

I'm sorry - it's got nothing to do with aviation. Apparently it's one of those sleazy late-nite hanky panky activities that some people get up to in Shanghai.

To get back to the point, there is NO good thing about this company as far as flying goes. About the only thing that might entice one to take a longer look at it is the fact that you can have lots of days OFF in Shanghai, if you have a special reason for wanting to be there on a more extended basis.

I shan't elaborate further on what others have already so eloquently said. Bottom line - go at your own risk

[Mr. Green]

Akistar,

What you heard is very true. No bond/bank guarantee for us Transmile boys and the days off sounds about right which will allow us to commute back to KL.

[Genghis2]

Mr Green,

Obviously you have not dug deep enough into the MAS grapevine. All the MAS guys know about what's going on. Haven't you read that article in the 'union' website......

Back to the topic,

You guys have not understood the the 1.9million saga. Greatwall makes it applicable to anyone who tries to leave, with or without a bond. Basically, if you try to jump ship in China, Greatwall wants 1.9 million from u, regardless of whether you have a bond or no bond. Read the previous article on this thread in pprune.

Also, do you think they will pay you the same as the rest of the guys if they pay for your type-ratings? Never happens in SQ for the last 30 years....do you Greatwall will rock the boat.....How naive......they do what everyone is doing ...pay you a lower salary than what they suppose to pay you initially for that position. Have you not heard that guys, with the same level of experiences, are getting different salaries in Greatwall.

8 days work/ 6 days off. Have you not heard of AOGWL??

AO ...GWL or AOG ...WL ? Every sector and every other day, there is a delay, quite often more than 24 hrs....wonder how you could 8 on/ 6 off/8 on/6 off in a month?????? Even the rostering officer has resigned in Jan.....

Your 8 days are basically on a long COP of 7-8 days . This is to cut cost for the company, bec you are not paid per diem or any meal/nightstop allowances, wherelse the SQ seconded guys get meal/nightstop allowances.

Then comes the AOG......and you have already paid for your firm tickets. GW will not, I repeat, will not reimburse you if you can't make it for your flight home. Do that once a month...and you will be pissed off.
Most times, it happens to a lot of guys.

Please go and read MAS rumours website, if you know what I mean....talk to the MAS guys....dug deeply ...

Genghis

[akistar]

Goodday Green,

Again from my good old folks from SQ,

Mr Green....what wonderful stories have they told you?... As stated earlier, all that is said, promised and written in the contract are likely not to be true.

You will never know when they will give you the actual legal binding chinese contract. Most probably, when you are finally operational in GWA, which is about six months into the job. And the surprises will come next, with all terms and conditions reduced.....

You would probably go back to mummy and cry for your mistake in joining GWA. Your wifey would probably curse you.

Do you think your B747 ratings without B744 PIC hours will bring you anywhere???????? They would have deducted enough from your salary for the type-ratings cost from your lower pay, as compared to the rest of your colleagues.


AJ

[Genghis2]

Hi Mr Green,

AJ is absolutely right about his facts.

Only stick hrs are recorded as actual hrs in China. We operates 3 pilots crew. For a 12 hrs flight time, you would clock 8 hrs. To clock 500 PIC hrs to be marketable to Korean Air, you need about 1.5 years. You would have no other options, as you will need to pay 1.9 million if you want to join another B744 operations in China.

Your reduced pay would have compensated for the type-rating cost by then.

Genghis

[akistar]

Dear Mr Green,

Also from my SQ folks grapevine about more sad stories,

the Relief pilot in cruise on the LHS, gets paid about 20 RMB in additional to what other First Officers are getting... and that's it. If you fly 70 hrs, you get paid 1400 RMB.

Just manage to get a new info -- one of guys who attended the above course, too, has resigned in Jan.

Apparently, the whole RPIC program has been suspended perpetually. GWA had apparently falsifying licenses/experiences of the candidates for the course. By the authorities -- candidates are supposed to have 500 PIC command hrs on narrow body jet . The first group of First Officers that did the course do not have that 500 PIC hrs. The authorities discover it and suspend the program perpetually. The authorities will not approve as it is China.....

Heard the last four FOs in GWA are on the way looking for options outside. There are no upgrades, they tell you stories.......they even tell people there are buying narrow bodies aircrafts to upgrade their First Officers!

AJ

[Genghis2]

Mr Green,

In fact, some of you guys have diverted while en-route to Great Wall of China. Reason beings, conditions reported are marginal, and most importantly unreliable.

Some of you guys have diverted to fragance harbour where reported conditions are not as good, but above minimas. Reason beings,
what are reported, are what you get.

Genghis

[Mr. Green]

Thanks Genghis and Akistar,

Will be re-considering again. Yes, they of course didn't tell us bout the other bond - for FOs they told us we would be taking back around 50,000+ rmb/month...sounds about right? Things are not always greener on the other side.

Fragrant Harbour - HKA I would presume!?

[Genghis2]

Hi Mr Green,

I can tell you from the FO's salary figures, that you are paying your type-rating every month through reduced pay, as compared to the others.


Genghis

[akistar]

Goodday Mr Green,

According to reliable sources from the SQ/MAS network,

back in early 2006, there was an AirAsia FO that resigned and jumped ship to GWA. He left AirAsia with a bond, and sign a new contract with GWA.
Apparently, Singapore Python knows about this before taking him. However, when AirAsia found out that this young FO is going to GWA, Mr Fernandes wrote to GWA.

Singapore Python was so ball-less that he asked this guy to leave, giving the excuse that this FO did not perform too good in his simulator sessions. Singapore Python demands that this guys pay off his new bondage with GWA. Singapore Python tried to keep the bank guarantee of SGD35,000.

In the meantime, this ex-AirAsia FO still owned AirAsia a bond that he did not pay off.

Now, the ex-AirAsia FO has two bonds to pay and has no job. Nobody knows what happen to him after that.

Thanks to Singapore Python for his actions.

AJ

[Genghis2]

AJ & Green,

Of course, there is the other bit where another guy did not make it through the conversion in SIA Cargo for Greatwall Airlines, and this Singapore Python insisted that he paid off the bank guarantee of SGD35000.

This guy was apparently from some flying club in Singapore. He was recruited as FO, and sent to SIA cargo for conversion training. Half-way through the sim sessions, he injured his back, took a one month medical leave, returned to the sim sessions, did not make it through the sim sessions. The Singapore Python tried very hard to keep the SGD35000, instead of trying to give this FO another chance.

Again nobody knows what happens after that.


Genghis

[akistar]

from good old friends working in SIA Cargo,

Too many sad stories in GWA.....

In 2006, when the airline was suspended for 4 months. Singapore Python asked pilots with families in Shanghai to leave their families behind, to go to Singapore to fly for SIA Cargo. Those pilots(basically FOs) with families in Shanghai, were told by Singapore Python to leave behind their families, else faced disciplinary actions, or bad records for their future promotion.

During the 2.5 months in Singapore, zero efforts by Singapore Python to ensure that these pilots operate to Shanghai in their roster to visit their families. During their 2.5 months stinct in SIA Cargo, instructions were passed down, where they are put on standby perpetually in Singapore. Some did not see their families for 1-2 months, and have to buy their own tickets to go back secretly. Facing uncertainties and higher expenses, some of the FOs were basically eating aircrafts food.

Three Captains without much B744 experience were asked to go to SIA cargo and fly on the RHS. Two took the offers; while two guys disappear. GWA chases after them for ...you know what... USD180000 for compensation. Of course, GWA did not manage to get a single cent back, but they kept the SGD 55000 bank guarantee. Today, one of the guy that disappears back to his previous company, is now chief pilot. Good for him.....making the right decision.

Two other captains, one from US and the other due already planned annual leave, were asked by Junior Python to report to Shanghai office daily to mark attendance for two months.

Guys were calling/emailing to Singapore Python for help. Nobody answers his cellphone. Singapore Python claimed that he did not receive any emails too.


AJ

[Genghis2]

AJ,

Do you know R...T..? or are you one of us? All your info are absolute facts.


Genghis

[expatdriver]

hmmmmm....i heard most of those stories also.

mr. green,

before you jump into the not so greatwall, better what are they actually giving you. they show you figures that you will "receive" as salary. but it is not true. chinese tax can reach 40%.

gratuity pay, is taxed around 40%. so, whatever amount they show you, deduct 40% of it. they will not tell you that. they will tell you that they can get tax exemptions. but it is not true.

one more thing, as a start-up company in china, you get tax exemption for a few years of operation. but why are they taxing all the money they give their pilots? are they claiming to the tax exemption but aske their pilots to pay tax? makes you think how they do things.

pilots are leaving and they don't care. and before you sign the contract, be it chinese or english, ask your buddies about their contracts. this singapore phyton is known to make different contracts for eacj pilots, thinking that pilots will not share info. now, if you sign a small package and found out that your buddies got something better. he will not give you the difference. he will tell you, you already signed the contract.

home leave? don't expect they honor it. they play around it, try their best to con you to give it up. you can't plan your life. they give and take your home leave as they please. change your COP while in AMS. a supposedly 3 day pattern will end up to be 5-6 days. without perdiem. try asking singapore phyton about per diem, he will tell you you don't need it. one more thing, are you aware that his SVP post is his first management post in his life? that is because his brother is a minister in singapore. that is why he doesn't know how to run things. promise you everything and when you ask him to fulfill his promise, he will tell you that he never promised such a thing.

so, all those thinking of joining the not so great wall, good luck to you.

[Mr. Green]

Thank you again expatdriver, genghis and AJ.

The figures I quoted was told from them that it is "after tax". So now I get the picture. I'll give it a pass - if it be selling nasi ayam to ride the storm, so be it! There are still better opportunities out there - I think many of us are worried we wont have a job after transmile, so we jump without giving much thought. Added to the fact the CP is a Malaysian lead us to believe we are in good hands - but afterall, it's still run by the pythons from the south. Thanks but no thanks.

[akistar]

Fresh from the oven by old folks in SIA,

Why did the poor chap want to resign?

The poor chap was attending the same church with Singapore Python. The interview was conducted outside their church in Singapore. During the interview, poor chap was told he would be guaranteed about 70 hrs a month, flying up to 85 hrs a month. He would be promoted to Captain in 1-2 years based on his experience.

Poor chap has 30 years experience as a Captain - retired from Singapore Air Force, and did a few years of Learjet as a commander, before joining GWA in Feb 2006, as a FO. He woud be able to bring his families to Shanghai for a new experience.

Halfway through his FO conversion, he was told that he would be offered a SO job instead, because he has no airline experience. What was he to do then, since he had already left his previous company. Singapore Python left him with SIA Cargo doing his conversion. Poor chap had the lowest priority in the queue as compared to other SIA cadets. Poor chap was basically doing 1 flight per month. The whole conversion took him 16 months. During the SO phase, he was paid SO salary instead of what was in his letter of offer as a FO. Even as a SO in SIA, he was supposed to get an increment once an SO checked out from his simulator. Singapore Python made sure that he did not get this bit of the increment. Poor Chap is eating bread and butter, as he has a family.

After 16 long months, he finally arrives in Shanghai. He is now offered a Chinese contract beyond his expectations. The promised 70 guaranteed hrs was removed from his contract. He was given Junior FO basic pay.

He refused to sign the contract. Singapore Python tells everybody that Poor Chap is a trouble maker. Singapore Python faithful followers also agree that Poor Chap is a trouble maker.

Meantime, Poor Chap was only flying 1 COP per month -- 22 hrs per month -- which meant much much lower pay. Finally, after many many rounds, Poor Chap did create enough attention. Singapore Python now give poor chap FO lowest basic pay. Poor Chap still refuses to sign the contract, because the 70 hrs guaranteed is not inside the Chinese contract.

So, after a few more rounds, Singapore Python and Junior Python counter-offer. They promise poor chap that they will plan him 3 COP per month, which will be about 70-75 hrs per month. ( by the way, 1 hr is paid 330 RMB --from www.gwairlines.com).
However, they will remove the clause 'guaranteed 6-8 days Home leave per month'. It's a deal....poor chap sign the Chinese contract.

Surprise came next. For the next few months, Poor Chap is still rostered 1 flight per month....about 22 hrs per month. It is worst now, because he does not have home leave in his roster. That means, according to Great Wall in-house regulations, poor chap is physically supposed to be in Shanghai when not working. Poor Chap now has no money and no home leave to visit his family in Singapore.

Of course, there is no point talking about the command upgrade which is illegal and banned by the CAA of China.

I suppose that is the trigger point.

AJ

[Genghis2]

Getting the 1.9 million back from Poor Chap's next employer, was the decision of Singapore Python, although the president and Finance/HR mgr also sit in. Nevertheless, what is disappointing is that, the new SVP designate has already arrived in Shanghai this time. Nothing was done to salvage the situation.

Genghis

[ddy]

So, where is this poor chap now? Is he still with GWL?

Why didn;t he try to get another job outside China?

[Genghis2]

The Singapore Python strikes on the last working day of the Poor Chap with Great Wall Airlines. Details is on page 1 of this thread.

He has no choice but to withdraw his resignation for the time being, else he would be jobless for a few months. The HK/shenzhen company is unable to take him, so he needs to look for some other jobs.

Last I know, he is on emergency leave.

Singapore Python has a lot to answer on judgment day.

Genghis

[akistar]

'Added to the fact the CP is a Malaysian lead us to believe we are in good hands - but afterall, it's still run by the pythons from the south. Thanks but no thanks.'

Mr Green

According to Genghis, Poor Chap and Singapore Python attend the same church. They are both loyal Singaporeans. Singapore Python's brother is also a minister in Singapore.

So where does that put you? CP is a Malaysian.....

No doubt Singapore Python is the main culprit, but wounds take a long time to heal......, sometimes it never heals....

Look at what happen to Jade Cargo.....after months of increasing pay and package... they are not able to salvage the airline....they now have to dry lease the 2 aircrafts to Jett8 in Singapore....

As what Gengis has said, go at your own risk.

AJ

[newfreighter]

well is good and thanks for all the "hear and say" regarding the recruiting airline and is more important if we can see the facts for ourselves.

however i was told by the singapore roxy mercure hotel reception staff that there will be a GWL pilots recruitment roadshow at its hotel ballroom on the 2nd and 4th of April from 0930hrs onwards.

guess i go have a look and hear what is the package 1st. nothing to lose

good luck all.

[blader]

Hi newfreighter,

care to share with us how was the Great Wall recruitment talk? How are their terms and package like? =)

[newfreighter]

presentation went on well. most questions answered. flying to ams, man,

tsn, sin, icn, lax, sea etc. 4th aircraft joining the fleet.

captain basic S$8000-12000 f/o basic S$5000-7500, housingS$2800,

monthly home ticket S$900, kids education S$2000, hourly flt S$66 to

S$100 per hour up to 70 (forgot what is after 70), 5 years contract,

S$50,000 complete contract bonus, lost of license and medical insurance

by company and 6-8 days consecutive home leave per month. anyway

there will be one more session on the 4th April at 0930hrs at roxy mecure

hotel singapore level 3. good luck guys!

the above are for general info based on my quick note and stand to be

corrected.

p.s. hi "cossky", china tax mentioned was about 17 percent (not on flt pay)

[Fair.Pilot]

Hi, just to confirm the reptile is Singapore Python Link?

[Postman_11]

Gents,

there are always two sides of the stories, I never believe there is a perfect
company with no politics either. Good or Bad, the road shows by GWA is
good. I'm satisfied for what they have to offer for now. Mr Green, have we met?? your english standards remind me of someone who used to work in TH.:D:D

[fullforward]

One have to be starving or out of his mind to ever think of joining a crap like this!:\

[gengis]

No, let him go there. We warned those who were willing to listen, but it's not up to us to protect them from themselves.

[Genghis2]

According to the figures stated, they are using the same spreadsheet presented to us three years ago.

And of course, our spywork told us Big F..... is there too.


I suggest that guys who are interested insists on a pre-medical in Shanghai. Come to Shanghai, get your Helicopter and Chinook ratings
and move on.:ok:

[Postman_11]

Gents I sincerely apologised for my previous comments, I have heard from a mate in there that its bad... I had spoken with him last night. I think those who are joining better think twice before you sign the dotted line.. it is bloody bad. no hours, bad promises...I'm not going to get sucked in.

I would ask all who are considering to consider again....... If my mate says its bad...its bad... he is stuck in china and no where to run....

[akistar]

From the SQ grapevine,

Well, at least he can die with the famous great wall of China. Heard guys are falling physically ill due to extreme slavery conditions. Guys have sleepless nights worrying about their futures being 'slaved' to GWA. Never comprehend coolies of 21st centuries still exist.

[rdr]

Anytime you have Singapore management, the tactic is to destroy the company slowly so their parent, SIA is not affected.
The survival of SQ is paramount.

[gengis]

Postman, despite all that many of us had said - with the best of intentions - you still chose to disbelieve almost every single one of us, and said "there are always two sides of the stories, I never believe there is a perfect company with no politics either. Good or Bad, the road shows by GWA is good. I'm satisfied for what they have to offer for now."

It makes me feel that we have completely wasted our time.

[Postman_11]

well this is a rumour network.... so??

[gengis]

Postman, i strongly recommend that you go there. yes, this is a rumor network so by extension it can't be trusted even with 100% nays and 0% yeas.

Please do go to Great Wall - it is a perfect place.

[Postman_11]

yes thank you, I will and if the **** goes down... dont worry I'll live with it
like a man and I wont B**** on the forum.:D

[Alexander the Great]

i agree - you should try it out Postman. It's just right kind of place for you. Think your friend is just trying to keep you away from a good thing. Don't miss out

[Genghis2]

We are just trying to tell the truth. There are many more stories that were not highlighted here. What has been said is only tip of the iceberg.

Of course, if you choose to join, you are most welcome by only the Singapore Python, and his playmate. No one will shake your hands. Not that we don't like you, but because we backstab on each other in Greatwall. They called it SIA culture X 4. There are fightings between groundstaffs to pilots. You never know who has diseases, as most guys go for the helicopters and chinook ratings...++

Last but not least, all of the non-rated pilots, that has not been through the Singapore system, have left the company to date.

You choose......if you want to know more stories...feel free to ask....

[Sentinel X]

any idea where to get the chopper ratings? :D

x

[crewplaykhan]

i heard most postmen cannot handle stress.. they might start shooting at the 16th floor.. if and when they breakdown..

cpk

[fly744]

I believe GWA (Great Wall Air) is part of SQ (SING AIR) so that is why they need a release letter,isn`t it?

[Ops.specs]

Postman 11 appears to fit nicely in the POS Plaza culture where lack of flying skills does not matter. Only need to suck up, volunteer to help prepare powerpoint slides and sacrifice family time for 'promised' quick promotion prospects.

He is likely to join the POSMEN club. He needs to be a snake charmer to survive, though.;)

[crewplaykhan]

well, the posmen need the job and money.. for their previous company went belly up.. due ..what else..poor management !!:{

AOGWL is a God sent oppotunity..likewise the snake-plaza saw them (posmen ) as demi-god sent.. the knife cuts both ways..

i heard the skinless snake went rushing down to the fragance harbour to trap the Oasis pilots as soon as the snake-plaza heard the unfortunate news... catch them while they are still in shock..

[Emperor ShiHuangTi]

I have been monitoring this forum with increasing interest.

For Ghengiz, Ghengiz 11. Akistar, CrewPlaykhan do not forget that there
are fellow pilots there who are trying to earn a decent living. Some had left established reputable airline to give it a shot for a little bit more juice.
Like in any other organizations they seem to have their grievances but when the pros and cons were considered, it was seen to be acceptable.

If you feel like putting your comments ,why dont you listen on both sides of the story, not from a handful few. You source I presume must have been from those handful of sour grapes that did not get what they wanted in the company.

Singapore python had his flaws, as no one is perfect. He had a task to do and did it well. He managed to get the airlines started at the least of recognition. That was a feather on the Cap. FIRST foreign airline to obtain an AOC in CHINA



Unfortunately your informer did not mention the good things that he did!

I was told the initial contract does not even mention anything about LOL....but he worked on it.... and the pilots got themselves covered for free......not a cent from the pilots pocket.Its 300K SGD for Capts & 200K for F/O.

13th month pay was never in the contract.....it was payed even when the company was bleeding due to the 3 months sanction.
More than 2 years of operation since inception... 13th month pay was extended and enjoyed twice....so far..
Infact it seems there was a recent announcement that another Bonus in recognition of the hard work put in by everyone ( Despite being still in the red) payable in July08

When the sanction took place....The CEO in a briefing assured the staff that the company can sustain for 2 years without resuming Business.
Nobody lost a single Singapore cent during the sanction.....

Gave in a Business Class travel to the F/O for interline travel during positioning instead of EY

Approved a 3 months pay for one new comer who end up jobless after failing to obtain his security clearance for work in China.No company would be obligated to do that if thats the company's choice.

Home Leave were honoured in most occasion.



In the recent couple of months many changes had taken place:

1)Housing Allowance increased from RMB 12250 to RMB 14000
2) Basic pay adjusted by 4,8% ( Shanghai CPI) effective 1st Jan 08.
3) Travel allowances increase from RMB 2500 to RMB 4500
4) 70 hrs guarantee extended to all pilots.
5) Foreign Insurance medical coverage in negotiation stage in view of pilots interest when flying in USA and Europe.

So Guys.... think about it....


SHTi:=

[akistar]

Oasis guys will not take the bait. They have ex-SIA London-based guys, who know what's going on in GWA. We have many Londoners who know what's going on in GWA.

'James Dean' legendary Oasis guys......have too many options, but not GWA. Jade would be more appealing, offering short term to long term contract. Most importantly, Jade do not have release letters issues when pilots resigned, as what is happening in GWA.

And we westerners do not take snakes and crabs, especially cooked by Singapore Python.

[gengis]

Aww... c'mon guys, don't say all that. Postman would be great for AOGWL - he'd love it here. Can't y'all give him a better welcome than this??? ;)


PS - Sentinel. Re Chopper ratings, you want Part 1 or Part 2 ratings? Don't forget to tell us all how your "checkride" went ok?

[Ops.specs]

Do you remember the snaky circular issued to the flight crew about some RMB 20,000 being offered to anyone who successfully recruit a Captain. Wonder how the Transmile drivers or others feel about that? Never before MLM styled recruitment plan been practised in this way. Would the recruiters who might be management pilots or instructors terminate a new recruit who would not meet safety standards? :=

How would the Chinese tax department view the commission earned? Never heard of any "fa piao" (official receipt) catered for such tax relief yet.

I am very concerned to fly with a weak Captain who got hired and cleared by the recruiters.:*

[Genghis2]

fly744,

The release letter issue has nothing to do with SIA. The release letter issue is because of Singapore Python Link wanting to nail Poor Chap down.
Apparently, poor chap's long sufferings has surfaced due to his resignations. Singapore Python's face has no where to hide. In order to take revenge, he has come out with this idea. Along the way, he persuaded his comrades, Killer Python and HR mgr, to plan this conspiracy.

Look at Jade, they are not doing these to their expatriates who resign and jump ship to other Chinese airlines. In fact, none of the other Chinese airlines are holding expatriates back, with the threat of not issuing release letters, when the expatriates want to jump ship to other Chinese airlines. China CAA certainly wants to attract expatriates. It will be to their disadvantage in attracting foreigners.

Singapore Python uses his usual techniques. He conspires with his comrades, telling everyone within his arena this story of release letter before the poor chap can be released. Of course, once again, there are people who are his followers, including some blind followers. They, now believe that the release letter is a must.

Of course, the law does not state so. And the CAAC does not recommend that. No companies would want to do this to expatriate pilots except Great Wall, except Singapore Python.

Sentinel,

Get your P1 & P2 ratings opposite intercon hotel along ZhangYang Lu.
Remember to wear pitot cover.

[Sentinel X]

ok thanks. :)

x

[anaconda1]

Akistar,

You prefaced everyone of your post with
"Heard from my mates in SG", "From the grapevine in SQ", "From my SQ pals" etc ,etc.

However, the contents of your post show such intimate details and are often full of venom and spite; as if you have a personal interest in Great Wall.

C'mon, you cannot be a disinterested party from London. You are much closer than that.

[expatdriver]

people are seeing through the masks here. people pretending to be somone else.

this is my honest to goodness opinion with gwl. you will enjoy it there and be successful if:

- you like licking your bosses a$$
- you like drinking with your boss, pretending you like him
- you like going to girlie bars
- you like to twist the facts
- you llike to do cover-ups
- willing to sell your soul for a management position
- willing to backstab everybody to get what you want
- willing to use everybody/manipulate everybody to get what you want
- if you can live with all the suspiscions that people are selling you out
- willing throw all your beliefs, principles and morality out the window

this is the culture promoted by the Singapore Phyton. and his so-called loyal pilots who were all promised a management post when they were being recruited.

now, gwl is not a bad airline. it is the Singapore Phython and his people who are making it bad. it has a lot of potentials. if and when the snakes (Singapore Phyton and Junior Phython) leaves together with their henchmen, things will be better.

one more thing, i can't believe that the Singapore Phyton is still saying that the flight pay is tax free. that is what i call a deliberate lie. ask anybody in gwl and they will tell you that is a complete lie told to them during the recruitment phase.

if you want to join gwl, wait until the Singapore Phyton is completely out of the picture. you will then enjoy it there even if you are not one of those mentioned above.

[ulaula123]

Hi there,
Just one question; if it is so bad why you are still with GW??
With so many airlines hiring and so many jobs for B744, I do not understand:bored:
Gengis1/2 are you F/O's?

[Genghis2]

Dear Ulaula,

I am sorry that we have reported you. God has taken revenge on us. We certainly would not dare to meet you in Hong Kong.....

One of the reasons we are stuck in Greatwall.

[Emperor ShiHuangTi]

Hi Ulaula,
What a direct hit you made,
and I was having the same suspicion myself.
Lot of jobs out there....it does not have to be in China.....as U have
rightly mentioned. Why are these few still under the Great Wall payroll.

My Buddy in GWL told me so far there were 3 who left

1) AN Ex SQ Guy who is close to retirement and wants to be close to home.
He is now back in SQCargo in his last couple of years remaining.
2) An Eastern Block Guy who finds that commuting to the USA is too hectic
and he quit a couple of months back. His family live in the US.
3) An Ex management who has his ego shattered after being ask to leave his management post.Thats a big paycut as well for him...was told his one of the pioneers who earns the top bracket pay....

A piece of advice for Gengis .Gengis2, Ops Spec & akistar....
Pretty obvious the 4 of you enjoys BICKERING ..BITCHING...& SLANDERING..
Just do not know what U have got against the airline.
There are fellow pilots who wants to earn a decent living over in Shanghai.
Some who left reputed and established airlines to see a little bit of
China and with a little more juice...
Was told the they have 1 month BONUS coming at the end of July 08.
They were also given a 4.8% pay rise effective 1st Jan 08.
Is it really that bad?????


Cum'.. on.....Guys....
Give them a break....... those who are happy and contented and to those potential joiners..


ASHTi:=

[gengis]

Shi Huang Ti, yep the place will suit you fine. Take it from me.

And no, i am not an F/O.

[Genghis2]

As expat driver has descibed, people are selling their souls to promote the goodness of greatwall airlines.

ShiHuangTi, it is an insult to the first emperor of China.

You are either the soul seller, or your pal in greatwall is the soul seller.

Again we are not telling people not to join. In fact, we are very short. However, we feel that we need to tell the outside world the facts.

The 3 persons has left...that is not the exact number. Why do you want to give fictatious number.

Let's start the list .... LP, Hi, 2 thais, 2 Indo, 1 Phili, 1 Airasia, 1 flying club,1 Singapore, 1 US, 1 magt pilot, 1 fatty, 1 Poor chap, ...

more to come ......

Could you kindly count...14....

And how many do greatwall has now...about 20 , the rest are borrowed

The three persons that you described did not leave due to the reasons you so vaguely described.

[Postman_11]

shi huang ti an issult?? what about you?

genghis?? dont insult him..

[sunmoon]

regarding expatdriver post
gengis 1 and 2: is this your character:

- you like licking your bosses a$$
- you like drinking with your boss, pretending you like him
- you like going to girlie bars
- you like to twist the facts
- you llike to do cover-ups
- willing to sell your soul for a management position
- willing to backstab everybody to get what you want
- willing to use everybody/manipulate everybody to get what you want
- if you can live with all the suspiscions that people are selling you out
- willing throw all your beliefs, principles and morality out the window

I can understand line 3, but the rest....:=

Give us a break,please.

[gengis]

Sunmoon, Postman, Shi Huang Ti. You guys should come over. Really, you'd like it.

[Singapore python]

hello B...........

[rdr]

Hello Python, if you are indeed the same person, hows your brother in the Singapore Gestapo ? (Government)
And i'm sure you can do better than hello, unless you are a fake!!

[Capt Vertigo]

Sunmoon
All the characteristics listed, except line 3 sounds very much the typical "SINGAS" . You sure know these people well!! :) :D

[gengis]

Singapore Python was from SINGAS too. Or didn't you know that?

[Singapore python]

Hello Gengis,Genghis 2 and Ops Specs.

Go back to work !

[akistar]

heard from SIA fellows that another GWA guy just resigns .... he is one of those licking balls type....

must be broken promises by Singapore Python again...

AJ

[BuatBodoh]

alamak any idea who this poor chap is? :rolleyes:

[Singapore python]

Ya Akistar. Please tell us who that fella is. Or at least give us a hint. An approximate physical description perhaps? Captain or FO?

:confused:

[akistar]

From what I gather,

This guy sells his soul. He also sells his comrade, in front and behind their back, for his own advantage.

Unfortunately, he meets his judgement day early -- he was also played out by Singapore Python.

That's all I heard from my mates.

[Genghis2]

Hmmmmm,

Not taht I care! ShiHuangTi can continue to lick and Singapore Python can continue the inhumane + slavery treatment.

Because why, there are willing parties like Mr Postmen, who are willing to accept 37,500 RMB/mth pay, while the parasites + lickers enjoy 60,000RMB

I'm getting out before the ship sinks, and more imptly, before the doors outside close.

hasta luego

[akistar]

Heard fr lads in SIA that Poor Chap has resigned a second time. ANyone can confirm that?

[Orion69]

Thank you guys for all the reports and warings on GWA which is all bad. Can anyone please confirm this situation is still the same now at GWA for expatriate pilots as well?

Secondly, I have an interview coming up with GWA and would be interested in what the one-day interview in Singapore consists of in terms of questions, etc. Also, what is the format or nature of the sim profile like and how critical are the instructors for this sim test?

I will be taking into account what has been reported so far and would really appreciate any of you guys feedback on the above.

Thanks and cheers.

[Molokai]

Hey Genghis2, aren't you pliagiarising someone else post from somewhere?:=
Genghis2 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=231649)

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sin
Age: 54
Posts: 19


Hi guys, if everybody is going to be **** scared then there is no MAKKAL SAKTHI!!! We all have to get this FEAR out of our collective psyche, fear of the 3XP, fear of repeat of magt shakeup, fear of this and that! Someone once said, the greatest fear is FEAR itself!! With a motley gang of smiling buddha, se(e)th(ing) guy threatening everyone, a raja samseng plus the rest of the leftovers from the previous regime, the clueless show continues. Whatever the gomen guys do will eventually affect us all, pilots or laymen. So do not for one minute believe that you can escape the effects of their selfish, misguided policies by seeing no evil, hearing no evil and saying no evil. Enough is enough!!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4097391)

[johnfearsome]

Looks like fierce Genghis2 deleted that post pronto after being caught red handed!!!Tsk, tsk, tsk:ugh::=

Or is Genghis2 time twins with Mat Tongkang? Weird things happen in PPrune and among pilots!!

[upwind]

huh? :confused:

[akistar]

Heard that the second wave of resignations has begun. Another 20% of the main group of GWA pilots have walked these two months.

Two of the ex-SIA-London-based captains are walking out, after joining GWA in Jan08. One Kiwi just disappears without notice. Fat Kuan's walking out too...

The latest rumours is that the third wave will come sooner than expected coming Dec 08.

AJ

[ddy]

AJ,

I think you should resign from the AVIATION GROUP and join the FBI......Or the "CSI Crime Scene Investigators" OR even as the "Desparate Housewives".

You seems to be enjoying the "Heard Say" or "you are always the first to be at the Scene"......or you are constantly SPYing around.

You are definitely..........One of the UnHappy Pilot in GWL......IF you are not happy there......There are plenty of opportunities for a person that can multi tasks so well like you outside........Just GO......STOP BITCHING..... :=

Which airline in the world is perfect? Can name one?.....If your Fellow Friends or Gang from SIA are happy where they are.......they will not be so "FREE" to pass such interesting information to you. Which airlines in the world do not have pilots resigning?

If you have plenty of time in hand.......Can i Suggest that you.......spend all this time writng a book .....may be you can earn some extra money from the sales......or........do something useful.....like charity work...

[KaptenLanun]

Emm............i smell fire!!!! :}

[Genghis2]

Indeed...and latest on the list...

Another FO just resigns two weeks ago.... One of the most experience and senior FO.

in the middle of the GWL so-called 20 years command training programme, that has never been approved, and been suspended.


Genghi

[B74567]

Genghis2,

Another one resigned? http://static.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies/boohoo.gif
What's this "20-year command training programme" you are talking about? http://static.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif
I understand that there is the issue of 'release letter' that's troubling the GWL pilots? What's it all about?

[14929292]

I have an interview with Great Wall Airlines, anyone have an idea of what to expect?

Thanks

[Genghis2]

Expect to meet Singapore Python, Emperor ShiHuangTi, SlimShady, expatdriver, sunmoon, ddy.


Genghi

[Padilha]

First you have an interview in Singapore. Two months later you must go to Shanghai to do CAAC ATPL test (very hard!) and medical check (no comments). After, you will wait about 2 or 3 months by GW call you back.
I did all those tests, and I lived in Shanghai 2 months. The lifestyle is good and not expensive. Detail: You pay all tickets!!!:=

[B74567]

Word has been going around that Great Wall does not issue release letters to the pilots after having served out the contract with them or after resignation without further obligations to the company.
I understand that without this release letter, a Great Wall pilot will not be able to move on to another airline within China if he decides to quit Great Wall.

Ghengis2, is this true?
What about the seconded SQ pilots? Are they in the same predicament?

[ddy]

Expect to meet Singapore Python, Emperor ShiHuangTi, SlimShady, expatdriver, sunmoon, ddy.


Genghi

How can we forget the self appointed GWL PR PERSON (SPOKEPERSON), GENGHI and GENGHI 2......?

[LCruig]

Have an interview coming up.

Wonder if any guys working in this outfit can provide more infos.

[non-std]

Interview is a mere formality. You must prepare to pass your Chinese ATPL examination and stringent medical tests. ICAO radio telephony test is routine stuff.

If you failed the ATPL exam, you are logged out for about a month. Retake depends on the next available date.

Company doctor can help to facilitate a smooth medical, but cannot help if you have high sugar level or borderline stress ECG.

There have been cases of guys failing to meet national security clearance, not wise to quit your current job.

After simulator, minimum line training required.

Be prepared for constant scheduled changes, mainly due to AOGs. Never pack for one day layover.

Management likes to be appreciated if you know what it means. Be a good team player. Make sure you know the team sports.:p

Good luck.:ok:

[sunmoon]

Gengis,you are right,:D
I enjoy Shanghai,many nice pubs and clubs (Zapatas is nmb1 on Wednesday's):ok:
Regarding company culture (people like Gengis1,2...) if you treat them as a retarded kids everything is fine then...

[jimchi]

Sup guys. I'm a current 747 classic capt with about 500ish hours in the left seat w/ over 7000hrs TT and over 2000hrs heavy international. what's my odds of getting hired at greatwall as a DEC or FO?

[pilot415]

guys,

is very simple ... don't go in China.... is a deep ****

[flyingman-of-kent]

To jimchi - Have you read the previous 7 pages?

[rdr]

Everything in this entire scenario from Cargo to Greatwall to
SQ has been built around the survival of the
Singapore state.

This is the brainchild of the Old Man. Mere pilots are a waste of
time and effort.

[LCruig]

11th February 2009, 16:18 #1 (http://www.pprune.org/4711722-post1.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/361833-great-wall.html#post4711722)) cf680c2b (http://www.pprune.org/members/170700-cf680c2b)

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Pacific Rim
Posts: 40


Great Wall
I know the cargo business is way down these days, did they stop hiring?

Anybody know what the terms and conditions are for FOs? I looked at previous threads and could not find anything.

Thanx
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=4711722) http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4711722&noquote=1)

http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 12th February 2009, 19:09 #2 (http://www.pprune.org/4714634-post2.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/361833-great-wall.html#post4714634)) cf680c2b (http://www.pprune.org/members/170700-cf680c2b)

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Pacific Rim
Posts: 40


Anyone?????????

Even the SIA guys have no info. on this subject?





cf680c2b
I went for the interview recently. All info are in this thread. Please PM me if you need more details.

[czyplt]

Hello... I have completed the total recruitment and am waiting to travel to shanghai.
I have found that everything that they have told me so far is correct. I have talked to two captains and two first officers... they all tell me that they have died and gone to heaven. I have found nothing to dissagree with that...
some one was making a comment about schedule changes... SO what if I am on duty then it is my job to do what the company needs right? What ever the head of the company does is his business. GW has a lot of money and they are persuing big plans... they are compensating me as I sit here waiting for sim slot... since the 8th december... so How is this bad? I think they are a great company with a good business plan and a lot of money behind them...

[Van Pelt338]

Report back in 6 months.

Cheers

[bumba]

... and after 6 month?

[B74567]

Please ask for a copy of your contract before you proceed to Shanghai.
Have a good read of the con-tract to see if what is promised is stated in the con-tract.
Many pilots have been disappointed when they received their con-tracts after stepping foot in Shanghai.
Promises are just promises. Some may not be fulfilled. But the contract is binding.

[169west]

I don't know if a piece of paper can really change the way they think about expats! I am more then pleased if someone can prove I'm wrong!