DHL/ATLAS/POLAR Connection?

[nitty-gritty]

Noted a number of DHL threads on 777 and 767. I guess you can add the 747-400 to it. Looks like DHL has awarded two contracts to Polar which will be flown by Atlas crews and aircraft. Just got this today via the union mass mail.

Here is the pdf file to the unions on it that was sent around.

https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=42148

[WhaleFR8]

It's actually DHL Cargo - and point of fact is that none of it belongs to, is consigned to, consigned for, or otherwise involves the Altas or Polar pilots.

[nitty-gritty]

And Atlas doesn't fly Polar cargo. Riiiiiiight!

Let me get this strait. It's OK for Polar to get the DHL contract that was being flown by Northwest Airlines and crews. Then under the Polar World Wide Holdings deal with DHL, Polar is awarded it with full knowledge that some of it was to be flown by Atlas under the alliance. When that same flying is then redirected to Atlas only, before even one box shows up on a Polar A/C, it is a sin against all human kind? So It's GOOD for Polar to fly it and bad if Atlas does it instead?

[L-38]

"Polar / Atlas . . . .have entered into a new Alliance agreement".

Was not the old Polar/Atlas alliance agreement terminated on 06/07 of last year, so that the Holden arbitration award (with regards to Polar's downgraded Captains and "paid to stay at home" FE's) could be mitigated?

[WhaleFR8]

L38 -
Polar has no freight. It belongs to the customer - in this case DHL. However, following your logic, if Polar did "have" freight it would belong to AAWH who owns Polar. And it is their right to put it on whichever of their business units they think will most efficiently serve the customer.

The old alliance agreement was terminated because AAWH wrongly furloughed Polar FE's during the time period the alliance agreement was in effect. In this case, no Polar pilots have been furloughed so an alliance agreement is within the confines of the Polar CBA.

I doubt that the Polar crewmembers have ever been more valuable to management than the brand name. I think ALL brand names are more valuable to the managers of those airlines (whether freight or passenger) than the pilots who crew them. That's just the reality of the airline world today.

[BELOWMINS]

Whale
Hopefully the next time AAWH lands a big ACMI contract they won't decide the customer will be better served by subcontracting it out to Connie or Evergeen.

[WhaleFR8]

I agree. But that has been done before and I am sure will continue to be an option for management. Hopefully, if they feel the need to contract out some of the flying, they will keep it in house.

AAWH has used Southern, Evergreen, and many others to supplement their contracts during heavy maintenance times or transition times. If you have been around this business any length of time you know how incestuous it is. Sure seems like it would be smarter to have a group of business units (that could get along) that could supplement and augment each other.

[BELOWMINS]

Hard to convince a pilot group that is 50% smaller and has 50 % less aircraft, that the company has a need to supplement its lift.

[WhaleFR8]

You are right it probably is. But it seems that DHL wanted two more aircraft; and wanted them right now. AAWH has some more aircraft. Did you just expect them to give those aircraft to the Polar group to fly because you have been so nice and cooperative about the merger?

To me, the message here is clear. If the Polar pilots want access to the flying, get on with the merger. Simple. If they want to be marginalized and reduced to a four or five aircraft business unit with no flying other than minor Japan rights that go with the Polar certificate, then keep behaving the same way.

Like it or not, the company is going to merge the two pilot groups. If I were a pilot in the 50% smaller (actually way more than 50%) group, I would certainly be asking my MEC what the heck they thought they were doing. Wouldn't it be better for all of us to have access to all of the flying? To have an industry leading contract? To have a profitable company that focused on business instead of putting out the fires created by a recalcitrant pilot group?

The average Polar pilot should ask himself what benefit he personally gets out of the continued roadblocks to this merger. I think you will find the answer in the latest announcement by the company.

[Intruder]

Hopefully the next time AAWH lands a big ACMI contract they won't decide the customer will be better served by subcontracting it out to Connie or Evergeen.
OTOH, Atlas has done their share of offloading lucrative contracts to other airlines... They have lost a contract to Southern because the Atlas mismanagers insulted a KAL bigwig, are dry leasing an airplane (with maybe another one going) to Tradewinds, and have sold airplanes to Focus and other competitors who have taken markets Atlas previously served (mostly profitably). There is no end to the amazing BS mismanagement will pull to maximize short-term profits and put a better spin on their press releases.

On a semi-related note, look at how Delta and Northwest mismanagers are doing their best to portray the pilot groups as the ones who are torpedoing the merger that a few execs cooked up in a week or 2. Only if you read HARD between the lines will you find that (1) regulatory approval will be questionable at best; and (2) the "principles" of the alleged merger that were announced by the execs have not come to any firm agreement even between the boardrooms!

[Zoner]

This type of management is cyclic, i.e., nothing new. I remember Flying Tigers subbing work to Evergreen and Southern, Evergreen subbing work to Connie and Polar, World subbing to Atlas and Polar, UPS subbing out to all of them, and so on. These guys all went to the same business schools and talk to each other all the time. It's all about maximizing revenues. It could be worse, they could shift our flying to regional jets like the scheds did.

[trashhauler]

Actually I am surprized that DHL is doing anythiing at all. They lost 900 million last year; Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley both pushed to shut down the U.S. operations but the new boss decided to downsize. I wonder where all this supposed lift is going and how long it will last. With economy dropping as fast as it is the old adage "when the US gets a cold the world gets pneumonia" is going to kick in sometime.

[flite idol]

"Actually I am surprized that DHL is doing anythiing at all. They lost 900 million last year"

That is true, however the majority of the losses were in the domestic express small package/document business where they compete head on with Fedex/UPS using a plethora of subcontractors. The DHL freight forwarding operation that used to be Danzas, AEI and several other bought out and amalgamated forwarders caters to the heavylift bulk market. I think that division is profitable and has capacity to fill some 74`s. I would guess that even if they pulled out of the domestic package business there would still be a freight forwarding operation and associated lift.

[Zoner]

The real loser here might be NWA. I wonder if their 747 cargo division can stand to lose the DHL freight.

[Intruder]

I am surprized that DHL is doing anythiing at all. They lost 900 million last year; Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley both pushed to shut down the U.S. operations but the new boss decided to downsize.
As flite idol pointed out, most of those assessments are based on the ground segment of their freight market. AFAIK, DHL is still pushing forward to complete their air links around the northern hemisphere. Once that is complete, maybe their US ground ops will take off again...

[layinlow]

Bottom line to the connection
DHL freight
Polar Contract
Atlas flying it

[WhaleFR8]

Layinlow - even tho you work for FedEx now, I will answer your obvious wind up.

Freight is consigned to DHL (owned by another person)
DHL contracts with AAWH to provide the lift.
AAWH selects one of its business units to do the job.
Freight goes to addressee on way-bill

Just like the current Polar guys, you seem to think that anything Polar touches is "theirs." This adolescent thought process and their associated tantrums are what created this situation for them in the first place. Perhaps they will be so pissed off at the company that they will turn in their wings too?

I can see it now - Robbobbin in his uniform standing at attention outside Cato's door with his wings in his hand....

Or perhaps he will try to shake Cato's hand and poke him with the pin like he did with Prater. Assault by union pin. :D

All very childish. It is time to grow up and join the real world. Otherwise we will be singing folk songs about the "brave" Polar pilots who are long remembered but no longer with us.

"A dragon lives forever but not so little boys
Painted wings and giant rings make way for other toys."

[L-38]

Unfortunately the future of USA /world competition dictates consolidation. That is, consolidation industry wide and in all sectors. Whale FR8, Belowmins, and others do have valid points.

What to do with those stubborn non-accepting Polar pilots thumbing their nose at the lions den while facing extinction? Make folk heroes out of them?

[EJetCA]

nitty-gritty Actually you got the facts wrong once again. DHL purchased a 49% stake in the new Polar Holding company. It has no routes, assets (airplanes) or employees

Please read this http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1135185/000095012307011097/y38085exv10w3.htm prior to saying PACWW has no assets.

Have a good one

[layinlow]

flite idol

I thought you might like this little tidbit that concerns your posting about what DHL is giving up. It is way more than you might think. Fed Ex expects to pick up 35% of the DHL air freight and 25% of the ground freight. UPS is expecting to pick up 25% of the ground freight; as for the rest of the routes, I cannot say but DHL is going "lean and mean" (their words). It had been rumored that Fed Ex was going to buy out DHL but they decided because of the anti-trust problems it would be better just to let them die on the vine and pick up the pieces. That is what is being done. Both Fed Ex and UPS are going to profit over this. So, I wonder where this leaves the DHL/Polar situation as Fed Ex has already increased the Japan, Asia, US frequencies.

[flite idol]

Thats interesting Layinlow. I guess time will tell but there will be changes in the US market for sure.

[sapco2]

If you take into account the staggering losses from the US market it's hard to image layinlow being anything but RIGHT. The management team under the new CEO's leadership (Frank Appel) however are stating they are fully committed the US market. Read these:
http://www.cargonewsasia.com/secured/article.aspx?id=7&article=15764

http://www.euro2day.gr/articlesfna/60501213/

https://www.cep-research.com/cepresearch/repository/news/2008/march/news_070308.html

[layinlow]

Just to let you know. The information that I passed along is not rumor or innuendo but based on statements made by the respective companies. The economy is definitely slowing down and as they say, when the US gets a cold, the world gets pneumonia, at least when it comes to economies. I am old enough to have been through this stuff before, fortuantely working overseas. Aviation historically is always the last to show the effects of a slowing or rising economy.
As the the Polar/Atlas/DHL connection? Who knows but I am not getting warm fuzzies.

[atlast]

DHL have already paid $150 million (non-returnable) for a stake in PAWH and just signed 3 year contracts for 2 400's ILN ANC HKG ANC ILN.
If I read the articles correctly, the problem is with DHL Domestic US ( ABX, AStar ), not international.

[Habster]

A simpler way to put it, FedEx's cash cow is the US domestic, same with UPS. DHL it is intrenational market..
FedEx and UPS have been competing against DHL for years. In the last several years DHL had gotten serious in the US. The fight has been tougher.

[atlast]

EJetCA,
the link you give is a partial copy of the Flight Service Agreement between THE COMPANY (PAWH) and Atlas Air Inc. To précis,
With regard to the Block Space Agreement (BSA), the Company will utilize six 400F and one 200F and any extra aircraft will come from Atlas Air Inc utilizing Atlas crews. After the SCBA is agreed, all crews will be from Atlas Air Inc. Atlas Air Inc will pay all CMI expenses.
It doesn't mention PAWH owning anything.

We all need to start focussing on the future and making sure, as a collective group our SCBA is industry leading with the AABO bunch stapled to the bottom as FO's.

[nitty-gritty]

After looking at the scheduled DHL flights that are to be performed by Atlas for DHL. Will the remaining Polar flights be used only to support more of the block space agreement with DHL? The closing of all the Polar lower 48 crew bases and opening of only the ANC base for Polar seems to dictate that? Will Polar eventually only be carrying DHL and/or the little cargo the current fly?

[trashhauler]

Habster
FYI you are a bit behind the power curve there good buddy. Fed Ex is heavy into the international market and have purchased companies in Europe, India, Japan, and China. They are moving aggressively into Europe and with 20 757's heading to CDG, and another bundle to China pretty much says it all. Not to mention the 16 777's.
As to layinlow's assessment, he is about right on. The industry is going to go into one of their troughs pretty soon and a lot of ACMI and bottom feeders are going to hit a serious wall. Only those with serious capital to keep it going during this period will prevail. Just look at the history.

[hvydriver]

>DHL have already paid $150 million (non-returnable) for a stake in PAWH and just signed 3 year contracts for 2 400's ILN ANC HKG ANC ILN.
If I read the articles correctly, the problem is with DHL Domestic US ( ABX, AStar ), not international.<

Actually, the problem stateside is with ground operations. Not the air side.

[atlast]

I don't know about other places but 3 years ago in my hometown there were no yellow and red trucks to be seen. Now they are everywhere. It costs mega bucks to set up that kind of infrastructure and run it but it's the only way to take on UPS & FEDEX. Plus it was all setup on a strong Euro, taking advantage of the dollar's weakness.

[trashhauler]

I don't know why Fed Ex and UPS would announce that they're collectively picking up 60% of DHL's flying (Fed Ex 35%, UPS 25%) if all DHL was planning is to reduce the ground operatons.

[hvydriver]

Trash,

Perhaps you would be so kind as to post a link to the news service where you read this from? My news servers don't have that. I therefore doubt Purple or Brown have announced anything such as you said in your post.

[trashhauler]

Commercial Appeal March 7th
Front page of the business section bottom article. If I could scan and put it on this site I would.

[hvydriver]

Here is the article I believe you are referring to. No such announcement. Just speculation on how much Purple and Brown might pick up. Mar. 6 Commercial Appeal business section:

FedEx, UPS look to gain if DHL scales back
By Jane Roberts (Contact)
Thursday, March 6, 2008

Analysts expect money-losing DHL will scale back in the United States and could make the announcement as early as today, handing FedEx Corp. and UPS a boon.

If DHL closes terminals and hubs, analysts say FedEx could get 35 percent of the lost business in the air and another 25 percent on the ground.

If the restructuring costs DHL 2 percent of revenue, FedEx stands to gain $45 million in business, according to a research note published Wednesday by Edward Wolfe. UPS, which has a more powerful ground network, stands to realize $71 million.

In 2004, DHL advertising envisioned head-to-head competition with FedEx in the United State. Today the company may announce it is scaling back its U.S. operations by closing hubs and terminals, which would give a boost to FedEx and UPS.

DHL, a subsidiary of Deutsche Post World Net, is the fourth-largest player in the U.S. overnight package business, with revenues in the Americas for 2008 estimated at $2.3 billion.

With 9 percent market share, DHL trails the U.S. Postal Service, (32 percent) FedEx (31 percent) and UPS (25 percent).

DHL joined the competitive U.S. overnight business in 2003 when it purchased Airborne Freight for about $1 billion, rankling FedEx and UPS, which accused the monopoly Deutsche Post of investing in a U.S. carrier to fight them on their own turf.

Both pressed the issue in lawsuits, which Airborne eventually won.

Airborne was the low-cost alternative to the big players, claiming about 10 percent of the domestic air express market and 2 percent on the ground.

DHL came in promising a threat to the established carriers, but in reality has kicked little sand in their faces, mostly because it has made a series of integration and operational errors that shook customer confidence.

Analysts estimate DHL has lost $2.8 billion in North America, including a recent $748 million write-down in the United States alone, where it has also announced 600 layoffs.

Wolfe expects DHL will close 85 small ground and air terminals -- as much as 25 percent of its U.S. capacity -- to stem the losses.

Satish Jindel, principal transportation analyst at SJ Consulting in Pittsburgh, says DHL will keep the U.S. markets it needs to protect the interests of global customers.

"I expect they will partner with other companies to handle business with smaller U.S. markets," he said.

Tuesday, Deutsche Post said it planned to split its logistics division into two divisions with separate executive boards. A second announcement could come today when Deutsche Post meets with analysts in Bonn, Germany.

Many analysts, including Wolfe, expect a more detailed plan will emerge in April or May when a DHL Teamsters contract will be ratified.

"DHL is in a tough position because if its customers believe there's even a chance it will leave the U.S., its competitive position will be compromised," Wolfe said. "At this point, we expect modest restructuring efforts will be announced March 6 ... with more restructuring to come."

For months, the buzz has been that FedEx or UPS was planning to buy the U.S. assets. That seems unlikely, based on antitrust issues, experts say.

"I think the antitrust people would not look too kindly on it," said Aaron Gellman, professor at the Transportation Center at Northwestern University. "It would be good enough if DHL just disappeared from a competitive standpoint."

Most doubt that will happen. Instead, analysts expect the deeply entrenched DHL will take time to retool and rise again.

"The burden of proof is always on anyone who suspects DHL doesn't have good strategy," said Paul Stewart, chief executive of 4-Elements Inc., a third-party logistics company headquartered in Arkansas. "They are a proven worldwide logistics organization."

Contact Jane Roberts at 529-2512.



http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/mar/06/poised-to-profit/

[sapco2]

http://www.union-network.org/unipostal.nsf/0/6ADCD1AC60998DBBC1257409005EC2C1?OpenDocument

[layinlow]

Not exactly the same article I read but close enough. Fed Ex and UPS are the 5000 lb gorillas of freight and are not going to cede it easily

[trashhauler]

That article hvydriver was a few days prior to the one I mentioned. The headline of the item I read was Fed Ex and UPS" to profit from DHL or something close to that.
Both of the carriers have stated their loads are off quite a bit from projections. Fed Ex is better positioned because of the growing foreign markets. They bought a company (ground and air) in China, India and two in Europe. This offsets the declines in the U.S. market. Fed Ex still considers itself a growing airline and with the arrival of the 757's this year and 777's next year, the increased movement into the European markets, the expanding of the Asia market, well, you can do the math. The start of this conversation was the doubts about DHL's connection to Polar with the expected decline of their U.S. presence, (not he plans of Fed Ex or UPS). Those doubts are still there.

[hvydriver]

>I don't know why Fed Ex and UPS would announce that they're collectively picking up 60% of DHL's flying (Fed Ex 35%, UPS 25%) if all DHL was planning is to reduce the ground operatons.<

This is where I got confused I suppose then. Your statement here implies that there is a news article stating that Purple and Brown are picking up 60% of DHL's US operations. Myself, I don't think that's happening. everyone has an opinion of course, but your statement implies fact.

>Commercial Appeal March 7th. Front page of the business section bottom article. If I could scan and put it on this site I would.<

I went to the Appeal myself and cut and pasted the article in about 15 seconds. That's the only article that was in the business section that was close to what you were talking about in both subject and date that I saw.
Here are the search results for the Commercial Appeal:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/search/?q=DHL&sortby=date&sources=site&image.x=17&image.y=18

"FedEx, UPS look to gain if DHL scales back" is the article I posted.

[nitty-gritty]

The start of this conversation was the doubts about DHL's connection to Polar with the expected decline of their U.S. presence, (not he plans of Fed Ex or UPS).Point in fact, your surmise is incorrect if you go back and look at the origination of the thread. Sounds like more shrinkage at Polar Air Cargo since they have little to show for profit outside the DHL deal that is basically flown by Atlas now. Typical upstreaming of funds to the holding company. I would normally have had a lot of problems with this, but the Polar MEC actions of the past have swayed my opinion on this.

It is now a who is going to screw who first first starting back in 2000 with Polar.

[CR2]

You have probably noticed that quite a few posts on this thread (and others) have been deleted. Some of you have even written to me about it.

After consulting some Mod colleagues & higher ups, I've decided that enough is enough. The back-biting, viciousness, vilification and if I may say so, general airing of dirty washing are no longer welcome here. The signal to noise ratio has become exclusively noise. Should you feel the need to continue, please find another forum. ALPA for example, or make your own.

This thread is of interest to all of us in the market; keep it on topic & it will stay.

Thank you for your time.

[trashhauler]

Today will be an interesting one. Fed Ex and UPS will be posting thier 3rd quarter reports and it is expected to show a loss of projected loads by UPS and Fed Ex. Fed Ex is expected to mitigate their losses, even posting some gains, due to the increase in their overseas operations. UPS does not have a large overseas operation but the slowdown was expected (Wall Street Journal) and the company has plans to deal with the economic losses.

[trashhauler]

Things are nor so bad as first feared. Fed Ex reportings are down only a little. The big boy rolls on. The expected advantage of DHL's downsizing?
Same as predicted.

[layinlow]

Correct there trash. The company grew about 8%. The bad news it is down from it's normal high of 10%+ growth. The Commercial Appeal mentioned that the company is going after lower cost carriers and have the resources to handle lower revenues to take market share. Fed Ex is not in the habit of losing and how that may or may not affect the DHL/Polar/Atlas connection is anyone's guess, but I am betting on Fed Ex.

[whaledriver101]

Dont think that Fedex is going to "cash in" on a little DHL downsizing. There will be some downsizing in the US but not so much to make a really huge difference to Fedex or UPS. Question is going to be whether the downsizing will result in Astar and ABX crews getting furloughed.

[hvydriver]

No furloughs on the Astar side.

[layinlow]

That is always*a possibility. I know fed Ex is not furloughing. All I can tell you is what Fed Ex publishes.

[hvydriver]

Lost me there. What's a possiblility?

[trashhauler]

Hvy
That Fed Ex or UPS will not cash in on DHL downsizing. I am with layin, why advertise it is isn't going to happen?
As for furloughs, experience has taught me that everyone hires right up to the furlough date. That's why you find people furloughed while attending a new hire class. Been there, done that. As one person once said, "Watch what they do, not what they say".

[hvydriver]

I understand there. We've had our ACMI adjusted with DHL so that there will be no furloughs for 2 years from DOS, and no downsizing of our fleet unless the fleet requirements nationwide go below the number of a/c we have. There's no limit on the fleet downsizing timeline. Unless you want to count the end of the current ACMI date of 2019. We decided to go down the business path instead of the RLA this time, since our last job protections worked out so well. (Not being sarcastic or trolling here, just stating fact as it relates to our little world.)

[trashhauler]

Good to hear you are safe. Question, hvy, is most of the DHL flying to the states or other places?

[hvydriver]

Now, it's the US, some Canada and Mexico. Didn't used to be that way. We also did Europe. Now, as you know, we don't.

[trashhauler]

Thanks for responding there hvy

[nitty-gritty]

Pardon my question, but was there a recent recall of union leadership at Astar? Like in the last year or so? Not trying to start a flame war, just trying to verify info from another source.

[trashhauler]

I remember reading there were problems with DHL and the union. Would that have something to do with it?

[hvydriver]

There was a recall around 2 years ago. The then MEC was going down a path that the majority of the membership (myself included) did not agree with in regards to contract negotiations. No rocks thrown toward them, just differences of opinion. Luckily the majority was correct in the course of action we chose.

[nitty-gritty]

Wasn't sure. Upon further reflection, thought this was in the last 6 months were one or more of the MEC got recalled or replaced. Capt Earl Smith comes to mind. Was he one?

[hvydriver]

>Wasn't sure. Upon further reflection, thought this was in the last 6 months were one or more of the MEC got recalled or replaced. Capt Earl Smith comes to mind. Was he one?<

Hardly. He was one of the MEC that was installed after the recall that led us to a new agreement. He stated up front that as soon as we had an agreement, he was going to step aside. We got one, and he did. We have a new interim Captain rep. now. And that's all I'm going to say on this subject. I get uncomfortable when people start posting other people's names on the net w/o their knowledge or consent. It's bad form, in my humble opinion.

[nitty-gritty]

Why I asked the questions. I'm halfway up to speed on the cargo side of ALPA and if I'm having a hard time keeping up on all the players, certainly others are also. Now I have it aligned with the other info I was given.

I would agree to the posting of names of a typical "Joe Nobody" as bad form, but being part of an ALPA union airline leadership pretty much nullifies that decorum. Particularly when their actions can affect their membership, the membership of other councils and other non union carriers in general. Let alone the public releases with their names on them. When you enter into any ALPA leadership roll, you become part of the public domain whether you intended so or not.

[LANCERDVR]

"Will Polar eventually only be carrying DHL and/or the little cargo the current fly".

I don't know where you are getting your misinformation from but just to set the record straight. Polar has been, for quite some time, doing very well as far as load factor goes in the current marketplace. East bound loads have always been maxed out, westbound loads have always been historically challenged industry-wide. Since the dollar has weakened the westbound loads have increased dramatically. The current challenge is of course industry-wide, fuel costs.

Polar has been carrying DHL freight for years along with numerous other freight fowarders, that is and always has been Polars business.

DHL bought a 49% stake in Polar Air Cargo WW, not AAWW. DHL is currently contracting 8 -400s from PACWW. Atlas has again creatively found away to take more of Polars flying, i.e. Alliance Agreement. The arbitrator ruled the alliance agreement was ok the first time as long as no Polar pilot was being harmed, it then followed that furloghed Polar crewmemebers were paid to stay at home and downgraded Captains were to be paid as Captains to fly as FOs. Then Atlas management changed the call signs on the flights being flown under the alliance agreement, claimed they were no longer alliance flights, and discontinued the payment to harmed Polar crewmembers. this is now scheduled to return before the ruling arbitrator later this month. Now a new alliance agreement to fly two -400s for DHL (contracted by DHL to Polar), 20 Captain upgrades on the Polar side not going to happen, can you see where this is going again. Poor management decisions all in order to bust a union. How much is this grievance going to cost??

AAWW management has been whipping the Polar crew force off the Atlas crew force since its aquisition of Polar, all to try and force the Polar crew force to give up its superior contract and accept the Atlas slave agreement. If the Atlas MEC had stood up to the Atlas management anti-labor tactics years ago, instead of bending over for a biscuit every time management offers one or runing scared, both groups would be in a far better place by now.

AAWW management has no intention of merging, they have simply found a great way to keep labor costs in check for many years. If the merger arbitration does find the merger legal (and that is is bigt if) do you really think AAWW management is going to let an arbitrator decide its labor costs in a combined CBA?

My hat is off to the Polar MEC for taking a stand and fighting for what is right against insurmountable odds, fighting not only the bullying tactics of AAWW management, but also the scandalous tactics of a fellow pilot groups MEC.

When this is finally finished one thing will be for certain, the AACI MEC legacy will be finished. One will be working in management as a gopher and the other will be working at the Subway shop.:D

[Kruger Stellman]

Lancerdvr,

Thanks for the completely un-biased opinion. You are a very bitter person and should seek professional help.

[Intruder]

I just heard a rumor one of the Polar arbitrators rendered a decision Mar 25. Any truth/basis?

[L-38]

No ruling. Arbitration (merger) to be continued . . . . July of 08.

[trashhauler]

Nice job Lance. It sounds very professional until you got to the end. You shouldn't have gone there. It makes you sound like a couple of others that post here.

[nitty-gritty]

AAWW management has been whipping the Polar crew force off the Atlas crew force since its aquisition of Polar, all to try and force the Polar crew force to give up its superior contract and accept the Atlas slave agreement. If the Atlas MEC had stood up to the Atlas management anti-labor tactics years ago, instead of bending over for a biscuit every time management offers one or runing scared, both groups would be in a far better place by now.

It appears that the Polar selective amnesia of history has kicked in again and/or that dreaded Stockholm syndrome from your MEC captors has reared it's head again. There are plenty of old threads with that already on it. Some still with the documented history of the events. Just use the search bar. One side provides documented facts, the other side only blandishments.

On another note, the Polar MEC did attend their Article 8 hearing at ALPA National. At least the MEC Chairman and Neg. Chairman did on the charges filed by the Atlas MEC for violations of a number of the ALPA code of ethics and Bylaws. Decision should be rendered in one to two weeks.

The new DHL flying seems to be running pretty smoothly. I think there was one hickup on a last minute 11,000 kg payload over flight plan resulting in a new flight release requiring more fuel uploading. Resulting in a delay.

[bpp]

There was no Atlas charged delay due to the 11,000 kgs. increase in payload and the new flight plan. Ten minutes prior to departure DHL made the decision to increase the payload a second time. The total increase was 11,000 kgs. which required a new flight plan per Atlas GOM and a fuel increase. The loading was NOT complete when the flight crew was ready to push. When the DOC was contacted for push the crew was told to hold position for 18-25 minutes for inbound and outbound departures due to thunderstorms and routings. Once cleared for pushback numerous aircraft blocked the area behind the aircraft for another 20 minutes. The crew contacted DOC and inquired about the traffic and was informed that the DOC has no control of the aircraft and the pushback crew would have to find "a hole" to push.
Don't know where the rumor of a delay came from but I have the flight crew report which was submitted to the COO, DO and System Chief Pilot.

bpp

[hvydriver]

Actually, it also didn't help matters that the loading crew put some NWA cans on the Polar (Atlas a/c) flight, and vice versa. That slowed things down quite a bit too. Welcome to the cornfield!

[nitty-gritty]

I noted that the Polar MEC filed another grievance on flights going into HKG. Probably the ones under DHL that Atlas is flying currently.

Kind of sucks when things come back around to bite you in the tail due to short sightedness of "it will never happen to me".

On another note, Atlas is doing limited hiring at the moment. Preference of interview is given to those through the Atlas union hiring arrangement. ATA and Aloha are first in line at the moment (ALPA).

Guess we will know much later on the Polar grievance. Wish the guys at Atlas had an option to file a grievance when it hit them over and over again in the past with Polar.

https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=42750In PDF I believe.

[trashhauler]

If you think you have been grieved then go for it. There is no restriction on filing. Winning is another story.
I have a question since you are obviously an Atlas guy. You mentioned that not much was happening at Atlas. I am wondering if this is due to the loads being down or contracts drying up, whatever. Here we are experiencing a pretty good drop in business. I was wondering how it is in other parts of the world. I mentioned in earlier posts that I foresaw a serious shakeup and it looks to me like it is coming to fruitation, 4 airlines filing for bankruptcy, DL and NW merging, UA and CO looking at mergers, etc. With jet fuel running $3.15/gal in the states (I cannot imagine what it is overseas) and the jumbo, even the -400 uses a lot of fuel, that it must be affecting business. We are getting 777 freighters and I was noticing the interior cubic space. It is not much less than the -800 which should be coming on line in the near future. If the much touted savings in fuel is true (2 engines vs 4) I cannot wonder if the illustrious jumbo that I dearly loved is going become obsolete. I hope not but one does wonder.
I know that Atlas is an ACMI carrier, and willl the downturn in the world economy affect any new contracts? I have a lot of friends whom I would hate to see on the street. Maybe you could enlighten me.

[nitty-gritty]

You have to have contract language to file a grievance on it's violation. Our scope is pretty limited due to factors like a recently purchased company used against us - acquiring a number of our A/C and contracts from us during our first contract negotiations. Resulting in about 200 furloughs, let alone the post 9/11 Bush NMB mandates. The same company requesting relief from agreed upon struck work rules prior to our strike release by the NMB to fly a number of our other contracts and A/C (@5).

So we didn't really have a lot to work with and no one to turn to for support, our sister union or ALPA National. No one was willing to hold a sympathy strike for us like we held for the same sister company a few years later -- they would only monitor their loads and request relief to fly our A/C and contracts. Resulting in what we got.

As far as ACMI, we get paid if 1 kilo is on board or if 120,000 is on board on our long term contracts (2-5 years). Customer pays for the fuel. We probably will make out alright. At least weather the storm. On the recent DHL alliance, I cannot give the metrics for it since I don't know what it goes for per kilo. The loads have been pretty good for a start. Usually 45 to 70 tons towards asia (always weak with all our customers) and 110 to 120 east bound to the US so far. Can't say what they are selling it for vs cost.

As far as the cubic space, the -400 is more weight driven than bulk. It tends to max out weight wise vs bulk. I'm not up to speed on the cubic space on a 777, but have been told it bulks out less than a 747-200. I do agree the 777 will beat out the 747-200 in fuel burn to lift and range. As to the 747-800 and continued 747-400 ops, that remains to be seen. Freight has always had to be there versus the passenger realm where the middle manager might have to go vs the conference call instead.

[trashhauler]

We pulled up the stats on the 777 and we found that it holds only a few pallets less than the jumbo and the belly held more. As for the height, I know the 747 has a restriction on height as far as the nose loader goes and the pallet heights are restricted also due to the upper deck, at least for the first few rows of pallets. But with the fuel burns being so much less, the extra weight would have to be significant to to justify 4 engines vs. 2. At least that is my take.

[WhaleDriver]

The only thing I'd add is those few pallets can make a big difference when dealing with slots. You use the slot whether its a Cessna 150 or 747, so restrictive airports can be a factor. Also, those extra pallets times 3 or 4 flights a day can be the profit margin?

[layinlow]

That may be true, if you are comparing 4 engine aircraft to 4 engine aircraft, but when you subtract two engines and realize that the 777 burns the same amount as 2 1/2 engines (CF 6's) then a couple of pallets less will not kill you. While I know that the ACMI customers pay for the fuel, costs are never-the-less costs and if someone can do it cheaper and more reliably, guess where they will head. DHL/LH are going to the 777, Fed Ex is going to the 777, UPS is looking at the 777. I just feel that the price of fuel is going to be a killer with 4 engine aircraft. The only way to compete would be to drop the rates with very little profit margins. Lose an engine and guess what? There goes the margin.

[L-38]

May be ridicules - but imagine a B-742 re-equipped with a pair of triple seven motors. A cheap efficient workhorse alla the old 70 series stretch 8 (and with plenty of power to spare).

Boeing sells new airplanes however, and would simply buy up and destroy classic airframes if the idea worked. I had measured the pylon / ground clearance of a B-742 a while ago, and a 777 motor would clear - although a tight fit (at 20 inches to ground - 4 inches less than a -70a).

[Intruder]

Might be too expensive for a Classic, but not so ridiculous for a 744. After all, how did they flight test the 777 engines before there were 777s?

[trashhauler]

Wind tunnels

[L-38]

Good point, Intruder.


http://www.airliners.net/photo/General-Electric/Boeing-747-121(A-SF)/0313479/M/


http://www.airliners.net/photo/General-Electric/Boeing-747-121(A-SF)/0326662/L/

[WhaleDriver]

Maybe hanging two on a 747 not so crazy after all??

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/9/12/215757/GE90115B.wmv

[sapco2]

http://www.elogistics-trendwatch.com/index.php/2008/mergers-acquisitions/dpwn-may-consider-selling-dhl-express-us-operations/

[Clipperskip]

Read the WHOLE article. You will see that the evidence does not support the rumored sell or partnership suggested in your subject line. What will happen, I, for one, do not know but it is most important that we do not fuel harmful speculation. There are many jobs at stake and the spread of opinions as anything other than opinions is counter-productive.

[sapco2]

I basically agree Clipperskip, albeit knowledge of what's being reported in the press can be very useful to any employee!

For the record, I for one, wouldn't dream of speculating and the subject line that offended you, is merely a cut and paste of the article's title.

Good luck to all of our American cousins.

[whaledriver101]

Sounds like Fedex and DHL are trying to work out a deal.

[Clipperskip]

Dear Sapco2,

Thanks for the kind sentiment. Hopefully things will work out well for all of us on both sides of the Atlantic who make their living from those funny yellow packages!

[RampTramp]

Hey guys, read the date of the article, its Calender Week 6. At that time Zumwinkel was still CEO and rumours were rife. All was supposed to be revealed in March but, due to the turmoil at the top, a wishy washy holding statement came out and more is now expected in May. And, no, DHL cannot afford to give up the US completely, it just needs to stop it bleeding the rest of the company dry.

RT

[whaledriver101]

If the right plan is set into place DHL should do fine in the US market. The people DHL has to worry about is the AAWW management when it comes to bleeding the company dry. A very few AAWW "leeches" could do alot of damage if you let them. Be careful DHL !! VERY CAREFUL !!!!

[rob rilly]

Wow, Bourne (Atlas MEC Chairman ) jumps ship.

[WhaleDriver]

Wow, Bourne (Atlas MEC Chairman ) jumps ship.

If you say so.

[nitty-gritty]

Yes, it looks like he has. I believe his good-by video is Here on You Tube (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=42836).

Dave was one of the few within the upper levels of ALPA that had any level of integrity for the job he was elected to do, despite all of the years of B.S. favoritism for votes council to council at ALPA National that elected the latest President (P).

Maybe he could see the writing on the wall one way or another. Of course, it could have been ALPA National cutting him off at the knees at every turn for a more favored non ACMI council.

Maybe it is the new effort to get rid of ALPA National at Atlas Air for Nationals lack of support? Just got one of their mailings tonight. Pretty convincing info.



USAPA was first, maybe Atlas is next. Time will tell.

[cptvac]

Hard to maintain your ALPA position when you are at the center of the Teamsters organizing effort (in violation of ALPA by-laws)...

Wonder if the Atlas membership will follow him over so he (and a couple of others) can get the jobs they really want and Cato is satisfied. Again.

Working together...

[742]

Wonder if the Atlas membership will follow him over...


Lets see. A pilot group with large numbers of PanAm, TWA and former regional pilots....

I will tell you this. I have not heard one word--not one word--in support of ALPA in the past few days. Not from guys who fought the Eastern battle to the bitter end, not from guys with 20+ years of ALPA committee work, not from guys who were instrumental in getting ALPA onto the Atlas property in the first place. Not one word.

And it is not just Atlas. It was not long ago that the idea of a USAirways, Northwest or United leaving ALPA was unthinkable. Now all of them may be gone in short order. And it all comes down to ALPA's butchering of mergers.

[zerozero]

The bottom line at ALPA is that the older guys feel they got sold out on their retirements and the younger guys feel they got sold out on Age 65.

Everyone is a loser with ALPA!

:ok:

[layinlow]

I'll tell you this, I am not an ALPA fan. I was at TWA before American and they haven't changed a bit. Trying to play both sides. But to suggest they are favoring one over the other is just plain nuts. Let's see, Polar has an iron-clad scope clause, Atlas does not. Atlas files section 8 charges against the Polar MEC then resigns. Polar goes on strike and get little support from ALPA or Atlas (and don't give me the old line, let me see the names of those who walked the line with us or who refused to cross the line, so far I see a handful). Now the Atlas MEC up and resigns leaving the union, in the middle of several grievances, leaving the section 8 charges in the wind, and Cato happy. Yep you guys have one great council there. Polar, on the other hand has a working MEC, several grievances that support our CBA, nothing more, nothing less, and 100% support from those furloughed and working. Sorry guys, I think Polar has the better deal, no matter what the outcome.
I cannot believe that this will not believe that this will turn into another delaying tactic.

[WhaleFR8]

Layinlow - You don't even work for Polar anymore so to debate you is pointless. Your entire post is incorrect - the entire thing. Time to go back to your desk at FedEx - I wonder, are you using company computers to post here? One small point once again - the "iron clad" scope clause hinges on one phrase. That phrase is "complete operational merger." It doesn't look so iron clad to me in light of the structure of the company.

Captvac - well they finally let you back on here. But once again you couldn't be more wrong. I suppose you are crowing about your (lack of) section 8 findings. That's ok. I guess using 800,000 dollars of ALPA money to file a resolution to take flying away from your ALPA brothers, brothers who contributed to that 800k - to actually harm their pilot group is your idea of solidarity. It ain't mine.

Dave resigned because ALPA owes us almost 300K for money our council spent to support the Polar strike. And no matter how many forensic accountings we do (four at last count) they agree that they owe it to us but refuse to pay it.

He resigned because he is getting NO support from ALPA national. They have even cut off all funding to our council. Hard to attend to grievances with no money.

He resigned because ALPA national is allowing Polar to use an outside attorney to drive this whole buggy and when Atlas files a grievance it gets ignored. Or when Dave attempts to talk to Prater he will not even return an MEC chairmans phone calls or e-mails or even registered letters.

He resigned because his constituents gave him a mandate to explore another union (by majority vote) and he didn't like the conflict of interest that this engendered.

He resigned in recognition that he might be part of the issue - the issue of a lack of contract driven by Bobb and Robin that has cost all of us millions of dollars in bargaining power. I wonder if Bobb would have the stones to do that. I doubt it.

He resigned because ALPA national is going down fast - they don't want cargo pilots in their group. Not Polar, not Atlas. They want to be a legacy passenger airline union. Fine with us - we will go away. But wait they say - we NEED your dues money so we can pay Polar's attorney - hmmmmmmm........

I call on Bobb to have the same sort of integrity that Dave has shown.

What about Bobb?

[nitty-gritty]

Just a little perspective here.

Atlas total annual ALPA council union budget is around $230K and has about 700 pilots. All Atlas grievances are done by in house ALPA contract administrators (lawyers) by ALPA National funding mandate. Atlas just recently received more budget cuts from National. All travel expenses were recently stopped. Previously agreed upon payment from ALPA National for expenses during our sympathy for Polar have gone unpaid. An amount in excess of the Atlas councils annual budget.

Polar on the other hand was approved (by most likely President Prater himself due to its amount) $800k just for an outside lawyer one years billings which is outside normal ALPA guidelines. $800K for an outside lawyer before we even mention Polars normal budget for their council of @170 crewmembers. Looks like someone has a buddy in high places that don't like ACMI guys and an Executive Administrator from Northwest who has an interest in getting the DHL flying back to NWA.

Looks like ALPA National could get hit with a Duty of Fair Representation lawsuit (DFR) here.

Probably easier and quicker to just decertify ALPA since we have so many fair weather friends there and it looks like that is going to happen.

http://atlasforteamsters.com

[BillyBob521]

:ok:Sorry Whale, I have no dog in this fight, and I am new to this forum, but it seems ya'll rolled the dice and lost so your trying to move your game to another table. So sorry, enjoy your battle stars the Polar crew members won for you!

[WhaleFR8]

hmmm.... well lets examine my "loss." I am a Captain at a growing airline with expanding flying, airplanes on order, a huge route structure, and based where I want to be based.

And the Polar guys - down to 5 airplanes by fall. Everyone based in ANC by September. Very small and shrinking route structure and limited or no opportunities to upgrade with possible furloughs in June.

You're right I lost....

But lets think about this for a min. If we had NOT had the Robbobin show, we all would have been merged and BOTH groups as ONE would have been negotiating for a contract well over a year ago - in an expanding or growing economy. Instead we are BOTH losers because of the robobbin pride effect. We are both going to be (together anyways I might add) negotiating for our pay raises and new contract in the current economy.

So tell me again who lost and who won? Seems to me that boobroobin created a situation where there are NO winners - except the company who must be dancing an Irish jig when they think about it. The ONLY loss is to ALL crewmembers both Polar and Atlas.

Thanks Bobb
Thanks Robin
Thanks Mark

from those you have royally screwed.

[nitty-gritty]

Got to thinking about it a little. If ALPA does as they did with USAPA and AWA, they will declare that the Atlas and Polar groups as a single carrier to try and counter the decertification vote by combining them and keep the dues paying Atlas membership they have turned their backs on but still want their money. 170 Polar to 700 Atlas crewmembers.

Wouldn't that be contrary to the current Polar wants and desires of not merging and give credence to an arbiter to the fact that there is a merger happening? I think ALPA is hurting for money now and any money coming in would dictate financial decisions versus the politically purchased votes from certain councils for the current ALPA president. ALPA is really bleeding out financially now. It was in the red a few months after Prater took over. It has only gotten worse by magnitudes since then.

On something more thread oriented. Heard that there might be some 737's coming on at DHL flown by Astar and then the ABX DC-9's will be pickled. Anyone heard this one?

[WhaleFR8]

So you are saying that if ALPA declares single carrier status, which they are likely to do, then the arbitrator will have no choice but to see this as a "complete operational merger."

Interesting.

[atlast]

I earned my battlestar and I wear it with pride. I put it all on the line for you. However, I'm starting to ask myself, " what for? " I'm not asking for anything in return and don't expect to see any of those " beers for life ". What I never expected is this foul tasting, misdirected, vitriol for my troubles.

[BELOWMINS]

Gritty
Better reread the relevant law on single carrier status. ALPA can't "declare" single carrier status for anyone. They can "apply" to the NMB for single carrier status as the representaive of a particular labor group and go through the hearing process to prove their case. The other labor group involved can agree or disagree. A reading of the recent TWA/American single carrier proceedings before the NMB pretty well sums up the whole process.

[layinlow]

Whale
I think you misunderstood the intent of my post. First, I still work for Polar, albeit in furlough status but that is not the point. OK, I am furloughed and I doubt very seriously if the job will ever come back. However, I am very comfortable with my MEC. When things got rough, he didn't resign "out of the blue", he hung in there. So things haven't turned out as well as some had hoped; so what. I have noting but praise for my council, not only for what they have done, but for what they are trying to do.
That was the intent. Now, what are you going to do? You have to, first find a replacement, get him or her up to speed, defend your grievances, fight for the merger you so desperately want, and fight with management at every turn. That is a mighty tough road to plow my friend. While you still have two probably capable council members, you have to admit, it is the Captain's position that drives the ship, and right now it sounds like you are rudderless, I hope not.
As for finances, I have no idea why national did what you say they did, but it makes no difference now, it is done. Resigning with no warning, to me, is not the way to go. I hope Bourne reconsiders.

[nitty-gritty]

Gritty
Better reread the relevant law on single carrier status. ALPA can't "declare" single carrier status for anyone. They can "apply" to the NMB for single carrier status as the representaive of a particular labor group and go through the hearing process to prove their case. The other labor group involved can agree or disagree. A reading of the recent TWA/American single carrier proceedings before the NMB pretty well sums up the whole process.

My bad. I should have said petition for single carrier status from the National Mediation Board. Either side can do it. I don't really want to get into the nuts-n-bolts of it. That would take a couple of lifetimes.

It has happened recently with US Air during their push to leave ALPA. Which did just recently concluded with ALPA being decertified.

Here is the NMB ruling on the single carrier (USA and AWA) status. It concluded that it was a single carrier in it's findings.

Here in PDF (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=42855)


Just curious, how long of a period do Polar crews have for the right of recall? I know they have gotten new hires in the last year. Did everyone refuse recall?

[BELOWMINS]

Gritty
USAIRWAYS and AWA meet the criteria for a single carrier.
Atlas and Polar are a very different situation.
AAWW presents Atlas and Polar to the public as different airlines. They have separate operating certificates with the stated intention of keeping both. Both have separate flight operations management teams. These major items plus a few minor ones like uniforms make this situation very unlikely to result in a finding for single carrier status.

[WhaleFR8]

Same HQ,
Same management
Same Payroll department
Same scheduling department
Same dispatch center
Same travel department
Same Training Center
Same Publications and manuals
Same Safety Department
Same Maintenance Department and mechanics
Same ground personnel where we have them (same contractors where we don't)
Same Web-site
Same Ops-specs (verbiage - exact copies)
Same Legal Department
Same HR Department
Polar CP interviews Atlas candidates and vice versa
FAA approved Multiple Operating Certificate Training Program

and the real test - Polar cannot exist ie. does not have the infrastructure to exist outside of AAWH.

Management has already merged the company and the pilots. They are just waiting to get the merged seniority list done. Waiting for Bobbrobbin - as are the rest of us who just want to get ON with this thing so we can get to a contract.

I dunno sounds like one company to me.

[whaledriver101]

Whale,

Under which certificate would the pilot group operate?? Extremely simple question. Either the Atlas certificate or the Polar certificate. If you dont know. Just say " I DONT KNOW". It has to be one or the other.

[BillyBob521]

As I said earlier, I have no dog in this fight, but I was there in Anchorage when I overheard the Atlas crewmembers tell the Polar guys they did'nt care about the strike they were making "BIG BUCKS" blank you! I saw the Delta, Northwest and UPS pilots try to convince the Atlas crews not to break the picket line. I also saw the Atlas crewmembers snuck out from the basement of the Marriott almost driving over the picketters. I have heard about several Atlas crewmembers that did go above and beyond, and did on one occasion actually see a Atlas Pilot turn his truck around when he saw the picket line. To those folks I apoligize. The rest get what they deserve! Bourne

[cptvac]

Sounds like you're telegraphing Dave and Johns big power play on behalf of Cato, Tom. Been in the works for a year.

Wonder if the Atlas membership are going to pay the tab just so Dave can have the big job he wants at the Teamsters, and Caputo/Alves can keep on keepin on...

[WhaleFR8]

WD101
The answer is BOTH. Just like CAL and CAL Micro. It is a thing called Multiple Operating Certificates and is common in 135 world and as you can see from the CAL/Micro operation, also available to the 121 world. Each certificate has to have their own Pt. 119 required DO, CP, and DM but the rest of the operation is interchangeable and pilots can fly routes and airplanes on either certificate. It is not that hard to understand and has been explained to you and others MANY times.

The Polar scope language says "complete operational merger" it makes no mention of "merged under one certificate," or "operating under one certificate" - so it remains to be seen what the arbitrator will say - I don't think you have a leg to stand on but we will see in July.

Billybob - so you do have a dog in the fight. I too was in ANC and I saw those same UPS/FedEx Evergreen SAT NWA cargo et. al. cross the fake polar picket line. Most Atlas crews took steps to ensure that there was no Polar cargo on the airplane. I can guarantee that NWA cargo pilots, UPS pilots, FedEx pilots and all the others cared less and didn't bother (not that they could anyways) to check waybills or physically check cargo to ensure that it was not Polar cargo. One of the "blacked out buses" that came out from the basement and was chased down by Daryl W's wife actually had an Evergreen crew in it. I have heard there are pictures, video, and a van drivers statement to back that up.

So you were blindsided by the emotion of the deal. I can respect that. However, if you had put up a REAL picket line and manned it 24 hours a day like REAL trade unionists then you might have gotten less vitriol from the Atlas pilots. Picketing only when and Atlas aircraft is on the ground specifically targeted the Atlas pilots when they were the only ones supporting you! Of course they are gonna be mad - wouldn't you be? Time for you all to step up and be men. Take ownership of your very poor strategy during your strike. EVERYONE else on the planet carried your cargo. Atlas pilots didn't, or at least tried hard not to.

[sidman]

I can tell you as someone that works at Evergreen we had crews checking for Polar AWB #'s on our flights out of HKG and PVG. I can also tell you we had some delayed flights because they found some pallets with Polar AWB #'s
and the crews would not move the planes till the pallets were removed. We also had a pilot working for EIA that was married to a Polar pilot that made sure that all the crews knew to look for the Polar AWB #'s. They would look at the cargo docs or they could check the AWB stickers on the pallets. I am not saying that every crew did this but I know a good number of them did.

Also Evergreen was staying at the Sheraton back then and I think that crew that was chased down in the crew bus was coming from the Airport to the hotel.

I know our guys did what we could to make sure there was no Polar cargo on our flights.

[WhaleFR8]

Sid,
And I am not accusing you. All I was really saying is that you crossed a Polar picket line (I know - if there was not an Atlas Airplane on the ground it was probably only a truck parked kitty corner from the FAA building with a sign on it) to fly YOUR airplanes - you searched for Polar waybills as did most Atlas crews. But they are accusing us of crossing their picket line to fly OUR airplanes when many many other crews did the same thing; crossed a Polar picket line to fly their own airplanes. We also looked for Polar waybills. For most other crews it was not even on their radar. And knowing how the FedEx and UPS operations work, it would be impossible to do. The Polar guys were so busy trying to plan their strategy to target Atlas pilots that they "forgot" to tell us that there were TWO numbers that designated Polar. Or perhaps they didn't know.

In any case MOST Atlas pilots did the same checked the waybills they could and inspected the cargo they could see. Remember however that it is also really hard to check hundreds of way bills and inspect ALL cargo (and all sides of every pallet) on a 747 freighter in the one hour turn we had in ANC. Heck the Loadmasters in ICN could have buried the waybills and put the cargo in the lower cargo deck and we would NEVER see it in a one hour turn in ANC.

I am glad to know that I was wrong and that Daryl's wife was chasing the van coming from the airport. Kind of hard to tell in the video.

Atlas guys did what we could also - in fact did more than we should have for a group that has demonstrated how much they hate us.

[nitty-gritty]

I was curious how long it would take to get to this again.

It is no secret that Polar has President Prater's ear and smoking his pole. Both hating Atlas and ACMI in general. That has been known since President Prater's election selling his influence for votes. When Prater appointed an independent panel to hear an alternative dispute resolution over this issue (as independent as that can be Hah!) they found that all the accusations Polar made were false resulting in an apology from Prater himself.

Link to that at ALPA decision along with some audio:

https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=41172

I know it sounds so much better to BS around the breakfast table in PVG over what so-and-so had heard from a distant third cousin with a sloped forehead during the strike or voicing it to some other carriers crews at the bar, and bulletin boards like pprune. In the end, ALPA National said Polar was wrong despite it having all the political pull in the politics of ALPA. Take it or leave it. I won't even go into what Polar did at the Atlas countdown to strike. National came up with it while Polar is in it's good graces with President Prater, so live with it.

Can we get back to the more germane parts of this thread?

[layinlow]

If anyone thinks that DHL is the panacea for all had better read the ASTAR Airlines race to the bottom's thread. The enemy is management styles not other councils.
On a side questions; has anyone heard the results of the section 8 hearing against the Polar MEC? The results were to be out yesterday.

[WhaleFR8]

Actually the results were out Friday. The three puppets running the hearing said that an MEC could sell used cars on the VARS if they wished. No duty to be honest. No duty to be fair. No duty of fair representation. An MEC can say anything they want. Guess this will really open things up for Bobbrobin.

[BELOWMINS]

WHALEFR8
I'm getting a bit confused. When you win, as in the ADR hearing, it's in spite of the fact you have no friends or support from ALPA.
When you lose, as in the Section 8 hearing, it's because you have no friends or support at ALPA.

[WhaleFR8]

It is fun to parrot Bobb on this page. But to have meaningful discussion you need to pay attention to the actual event, not just say what Bobbrobin want you to say.

The ADR came as a result of a lawsuit filed by 128 Atlas pilots against Polar which of course means against ALPA, as ALPA indemnifies the actions of their MECs. The 128 Pilots (well most of them anyways), agreed to accept the ADR - which means Alternate Dispute Resolution - in an attempt to bring resolution to the situation quicker, and with less pain to both groups. In the ultimate no-good-deed-goes-unpunished, they were finally, weeks after the actual award, written a letter by Prater which met the letter of the ADR but certainly NOT the spirit and definitely didn't meet their expectations of a resolution. These 128 pilots, unlike the Polar guys who have ALL their outside counsel bills paid by ALPA, had to pay for their own attorney.

So now how is it that you feel they got some support from ALPA during the ADR? They had to sue ALPA just to get what they got; and it wasn't much.

As an interesting example of what I am talking about, here (http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsView.aspx?itemid=13842&ModuleId=2044&Tabid=256) is the latest letter from Prater and ALPA concerning Capt Beebe's departure. Look at the brand spankey new "letterhead" on the left. See Atlas listed in there anywhere?

Still confused?

[trashhauler]

It sounds more and more like your council was, and is, a mess. Wouldn't a little introspection be better than blaming others? If h

[trashhauler]

It sounds more and more like your council was, and is, a mess. Wouldn't a little introspection be better than blaming others? As Pogo once said "We have met the enemy and it is us". Most of the time this is so true.

[layinlow]

I just finished reading the atlasforteamsters web site. Especially the letter to Polar crew members. You are kidding aren't you? After so much Polar crew and especially the MEC bashing, not to mention the section 8 charges that were thrown out, that Polar would even consider joining forces with you. I am furloughed at Polar, but I support the MEC. I agree with the previous post. You had better look at yourselves first. Then check out the wonderful job the Teamsters did with the Champion and ABX crews. As much as I detest ALPA, I really think you are making a very big mistake. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, how about assessing what you are doing wrong, then fix it.

[Intruder]

So, what did Teamsters do with Champion and ABX?

[EJetCA]

Teamsters:
Good:
Wrote a good scope
Kept us from being fisted by mainline pilots represented by ALPA
QX and World contracts

Bad:
Business agent died and it only took 7 years to replace the individual with the person that was his secretary

Never, EVER had a professional negotiator

Most dues went to the International. We had an assessment to cover flight pay loss. The percent of dues ended up closer than they advertise.

They also lost a majority of grievances. Especially the ones that REALLY mattered.

Hap-hazard, at best, communication

No support other than what we could cajole from them.

F'ers never even gave me a lanyard.

9 years with them

[layinlow]

When UPS bought Champion the union was told there wouldn't be any loss of jobs. The Teamsters bought off on it. Guess what, I sat in Nicaragua listening to a Champion crew lamenting on how the union would not fight for them when the aquisition was complete. Both handed me resumes. Although we didn't have 757's they both got hired.

[trashhauler]

Oh come on now nitty! For years now you and your minions have touted the fact that ALPA national had about had it with the Polar MEC and how Bourne et al. was in their good graces. Now you say they're smoking Bobb's pipe? Outside of being a disgusting statement that should require an apology to Henderson, Hair, and the entire ALPA management, it flies in the face of all that has been written in this, and other forums.
It is obvious to me that your council has some serious explaining to your union on why they cannot seem to give what they promised. Blaming it on others will not fix anything since you figure nothing is wrong. Well, obviously it is. Assuming you're successful in moving to the Teamsters, what you would do when the first decision came down against you? Where would you run to next?
Believe it nor not, I would like to see a merger. I really would although it might not mean a return to of displaced crew members, on either side of the aisle. If the Polar side is demanding that their scope clause is honored and it is not then they have a gripe. However, if the Atlas side is right, they have a gripe. The bottom line is that not everyone is going to get every job back (that is the issue isn't it) and the sooner everyone steps back and takes a deep breath nothing will get resolved. The enemy here is the company, not the unions.
Here is a novel idea. Have everyone study each others scope clause. A little knowledge on where the other side stands can only benefit everyone. Gleaning from your previous posts, ALPA has cut off your fundings. Could it be that they felt the money would be better spent on what they consider the winning side. Remember, they are stewards of a lot of money from a lot of councils, not just yours and Polars. They have to assess how to use it wisely.
It isn't the best way to put it but let's hope that both sides win and AAWH loses.

[cptvac]

This is about a favorable outcome for Bourne and his inner circle, as engineered by Cato to end Polar. Period.

Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items. Look for the following:

1...HARD press for Teamster representation (w/ Cato support).

2...Move for Single Carrier (w/ Cato support).

3...Subsequent vote to pull Polar from ALPA (w/Cato support).

4...Bourne installed at Teamster National.

5...Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions.

6...Continuous blame of ALPA and Polar for concessionary contract from all of the above (and WhaleFr8) rings suddenly hollow with Atlas membership-

AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE...

At least Dave will still be eating in the same expensive DC restaurants on the membership dime.

[WhaleFR8]

ALPA has cut off your fundings. Could it be that they felt the money would be better spent on what they consider the winning side. Remember, they are stewards of a lot of money from a lot of councils, not just yours and Polars. They have to assess how to use it wisely.Are you really THAT naive. ALPA is ONLY concerned with NWA. NWA currently has the DHL flying and If ALPA can drive a wedge or prolong this merger then Bobbrobin are playing right into their hands. It is more flying, longer for NWA. Helling, the EA at ALPA that is the driving force behind this is a NWA. Like you say you must be educated. Most Polar pilots that post on here are merely parroting what Bobbrobin tell them too. They have not read the Polar Scope clause. Just like you, you have not taken the time to investigate the politics behind all of this. Check it out. Prater and Helling do not care about cargo companies. They care about legacy carrier JOBS. They have an agenda to prolong this merger.... and it doesn't include either Polar or Atlas.

Mark - time to step away from the crack pipe.

[rob rilly]

Most Polar pilots that post on here are merely parroting what Bobbrobin tell them too.

Just like you were(or are) a Daveputo voice piece for Atlas pilots. Just the McHolman show there now ! Ha

Atleast you make us all laugh

[nitty-gritty]

Lets see, US Air council 41 gets pulled and a trustee replaces them by ALPA order. Charges brought by Atlas MEC for the same things USAir council 41 did which are mirrored by Polar's MEC. ALPA now says that they can do anything they want if they are Polar in about a 180 degree turn from the council 41 decision of replacement by trustee. Gee, do you think that was politically generated?

Polar and the @170 member council recieves over twice (@ $900,000) and gets an outside attorney for their grievances which are filed to take flying and A/C from Atlas. Versus the funding of Atlas @700 member council gets which is less than half that of Polars. BTW Atlas funding was cut again just this week at Atlas and only regular staff attorneys that say everything costs to much to represent grievances. Even now ALPA is refusing to pay already agreed upon costs we spent on Polar's strike of about 1/4 mil. in expenses. You know, the one we went on in sympathy for Polar. The first sympathy strike in ALPA history cargo carrier to cargo carrier. The agreed upon amount by both sides (National and Atlas), but that was under a different more honorable President.

Since Atlas was not supporting the current president during his election, Atlas has suffered at Polar's gain at ALPA. You gotta love politics. It has so little to do with what is right.

It is pretty obvious. Since the change out in Presidents, Polar has been getting favored. That's not to say they were not taken care before that.

With the Teamsters, we have support. About 1.4 million that won't let the freight on the A/C let alone fly it. With ALPA, we have a sister airline more than willing to fly our A/C or cargo anywhere as proven in the past during our count-down to strike so many years ago. In as much asking for asking for relief to fly the struck work and A/C ahead of time. I won't even get into the flying and A/C they acquired during our negotiations prior to that they now claim as their own forever and always.

I don't even want to go into how NWA and Exective Administrator Helling (NWA) entering this covering themselves in this over the DHL flying. I'm sure they are covering themselves in this already. Just by his current actions.

What is the Atlas membership left with? We certainly can't count on ALPA or Polar to do the right thing. Let alone hold up to their promises.

http://atlasforteamsters.com

I've found their statements at atlas for teamsters factual to the behind the scenes system at ALPA. If your a legacy carrier or "scheduled" , your in good graces. If not, give us your dues and go away.

[rob rilly]

With ALPA, we have a sister airline more than willing to fly our A/C or cargo anywhere

Polar has a sister airline that does fly all the Polar cargo. Atlas has none of their own cargo. Just what they steal from Polar thru Cato.....

[nitty-gritty]

So your saying that Polar never flew Atlas A/C and routes prior to the Atlas strike countdown? Then later requested relief to fly even more Atlas A/C and routes prior to the strike release.

Kind of like "which came first the egg or the chicken." Doesn't really matter. Polar did it first hoping to keep the flying with their scope clause. Didn't work out that way in the end. Polar then yelled that Atlas were scabs if they didn't give it back plus all of the remaining flying when it was Polar's turn at negotiations and strike. ALPA National said BS to it when you called us scabs after we held a sympathy strike for Polar. Then here we are.

You need to sit back and think just what Polar did to help. I think it was "we'll monitor the loads from Purchase". Followed by a "we want relief from the struck work rules" about 20 minutes prior to the release for Atlas.

With friends like Polar and inaction by ALPA National, I can see why we are going Teamsters.

I don't expect an intelligent answer from you, looking at your previous posts. Just putting it out there for those at Polar that think for themselves.

[joetommy]

I'll send in the Teamster card only with an assurance of new union leadership. Like you said, it's time for a change.

[trashhauler]

I don't think you understand the grievance process there nitty. Just because you file a grievance doesn't mean that ALPA has to pay for the representation. When I worked grievance, there were times when we felt that the grievance was not valid. We informed the crew member that we would file the grievance and support it but he would have to provide his own attorney costs. An average cost was about $5000 per grievance. If he won, then he got the money reimbursed. Have you thought that maybe ALPA is having reservations over these ongoing grievances that you file that you always seem to lose?
I have a question. If you do go to the Teamsters; Is your present contract kept in force until a new one is negotiated (usually talking several years); what is your support percentage; how long will this process take place and finally; if and when a merger is completed, has anyone thought of how the representation will be handed between the two competing unions?
I do have one more question; has anyone in your union looked at what, if anything, your present council would benefit with any merger. I would hate to see a lot of good people get hoodwinked and jump off a cliff for some self-serving act of a few.

[rob rilly]

Very good joking response from you, nitty. You accused Polar of almost flying Atlas A/C. But Atlas really does fly Polar Freight and Contracts. GET OVER YOURSELF ! Good luck with the Hoffa Group .....

[layinlow]

I'll say just that. There was no Atlas/Polar connection other than we shared the same ALPA attorney back then. We met with your council in Everett Barber's offices and fully supported you then. When Fell put out that ill advised letter, we furiously jumped on it and had it voided within two days. We floated a recall petition against Fell for the letter. There are some, I believe, that use selective data to advance their causes or cover their missteps. Look at all the facts. You should have struck!!!

[nitty-gritty]

You accused Polar of almost flying Atlas A/C. But Atlas really does fly Polar Freight and Contracts. GET OVER YOURSELF ! Good luck with the Hoffa Group .....
Actually you were already flying 5 A/C and routes at the cost of @170 crewmembers prior to the Atlas strike countdown. You know, back when Polar was saying they were saving both companies instead of the Negotiating tactic that it was to make Atlas crews bend (the saving by Polar part was dispelled later during the bankruptcy filing). Then Polar requested relief from struck work rules minutes prior to the strike release. Gee, kind of a shame no one told the Atlas side how you chased down Fell and corrected that before his famous 20 minute call to us prior to the strike. Thanks for that help there guys.

Trash-

The current contract would be in force. It's at http://atlasforteamsters.com for a lot of the answers. Let alone under the NMB and RLA rules if you want to download that and go through it. I would suggest doing so as an independent check. More than likely, we will be considered under single carrier status such as the AWA-USAir situation I put up for download a page back in pdf.

As far as time lines, it would probably be quicker than the current merger - no merger BS PID fiasco at ALPA that is serving just a few and holding up any contract negotiations merged or not on either the Atlas or Polar side.

[joetommy]

If Polar wins its no merger arbitration, what would that do to the Atlas/Teamster single carrier status plan?

THANKS

[nitty-gritty]

I don't know myself. My answering would only be conjecture. Good question to ask though. They have an email address for questions at the site under Q's and A's. Judging from the responses I got so far and how long it took, they are probably funneling some of the hard questions through a lawyer. They seem to be posting a number of them over there.

[cptvac]

Joetommy

You hit upon a great idea...it would be very telling if ALL of the Atlas leadership would resign and assure its members that they will hold no place at your new union. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Bourne (and Cato) have been hatching this plan for over a year. ALPA has been aware (as has Polar) and is remiss in not dealing with it. Central to the effort is the same cast of characters retaining their lifestyle. Their backdoor tactics have fallen flat at ALPA...they continue to work this Teamster angle hard with Cato and demonize the "uncooperative" Polar folks.

Big sales point will be negating the Merged Seniority List...

I sincerely hope that all of the Atlas crewmembers ask hard and thoughtful questions before going down the Teamster road and rewarding Bourne and Cato. They have been footing the bill for the benefit of a handful of political hacks long enough. In their hearts, they know its true.

[jocko2000]

You guys are so worried about the strike, this single carrier plan is about 10x worse in regards to union busting than anything in the past. For a union to work with a company to bust another union is incredible. I do not know how any pilot can feel that they are getting a fair representation if there is collusion between the company and union. Don't get me wrong, I understand that a union and company need to work together for a common goal, however, this is too much. I would hate to face the industry to explain this one, you may think jumpseating now can be uncomfortable, just wait. I hope that this is just a rumor, please someone deny it.

By the way, doesn't someone out there think its foolish to blame pilots for the routes they fly. I somewhat understand the argument that people feel that their are backroom deals going on but for the most part it is really out of anyones control. I hate that pilots are getting screwed out of career progression, however, does anyone across the aisle have anything to do with that? Maybe so, I would like to hear the argument on what should be done. Refuse the work? I haven't seen anyone do that.

Also, while I got the floor and before I get hammered, How come there is no clear discussion on why it is in Polar's and Atlas's best interest not to merge? How merging would be a detriment to both airlines overall. Or I tell you what, what is the benefit of merging when there is no clear scope protection in place? I'm sorry but it seems that the Atlas pilots do not have the same priority on scope and seniority as the Polar guys. I believe their are 3 different senority lists at Atlas being; Atlas pilots, FE's, and Stanstead. If there are more let me know? As far as scope, the whole Standstead affair should of never happened. Also, watch your back on this company out of Ireland, just another avenue to outsource.

Look, overall, I think everone should be working together towards something. Discussing the strike and Fell over and over does nothing. Maybe, we should be discussing all the altercations that seem to be happening between the two groups and how to stop it. When it comes to an airplane diverting because of a disagreement at 35,000 feet, we all will be sorry and embarrassed.

Back to the Springer show.....

[nitty-gritty]

I sincerely hope that all of the Atlas crewmembers ask hard and thoughtful questions before going down the Teamster road and rewarding Bourne and Cato. They have been footing the bill for the benefit of a handful of political hacks long enough. In their hearts, they know its true.

I would be scared of the Teamsters also Mark if I were you. Your MEC Chairman Henderson calling ABX crews scabs has been looked upon rather poorly by them. Seems like anyone that doesn't believe the same as Henderson is a scab in your camp. At least Astar got rid of the MEC chairman that buddied up with your Henderson that towed the same line and rhetoric.

Your comments and opinion probably just reinforce Atlas going to Teamsters considering how well you have worked with Atlas crews in the past. If you don't like it, then it must be good for Atlas crews.

[cptvac]

Any Atlas crewmember that knows Dave Bourne and John Caputo, know that their agenda is Dave Bourne and John Caputo. Blaming Polar for their failures and "Working Together" with a management that can't even abide by the Atlas CBA, weak as it is, has got to be wearing thin with any thinking Atlas crewmember...

The immediate goal of just demonizing and getting rid of Polar (with a little help from Cato) hasn't worked out. Bourne/Caputos self-serving behavior has had NOTHING to do with representing the interests of Atlas crewmembers or labor in general.

Simplistic accusations and revisionist history are not going to be enough when Atlas crewmembers start asking the tough questions. Thats when the closed door meetings and promises of Daves "special" relationships at the Teamsters will start. It will be interesting to see how much faith the group will place in more of this backdoor nonsense.

[atlast]

CAPT "VACuous"
Definition:
Pronunciation:
\ˈva-kyə-wəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin vacuus
Date: circa 1660
1 : emptied of or lacking content
2 : marked by lack of ideas or intelligence : stupid, inane <a vacuous mind> <a vacuous movie>
3 : devoid of serious occupation : idle

I always laugh when I see your posts as they always follow the above definition!

[atlast]

Bourne ,Caputo and Low are about self sacrifice. They answer the phone 24/7 and go to bat. If you watched the video, Dave is taking an LOA which means a loss of longevity; that is going to bat. If we go to a different union and they get elected they'll be going back to the line if we want them to. Read the Dave Allen letter to Polar crewmembers regarding how we feel about blame. It's over, move on!

The only truth in your whole diatribe is the fact that we have a weak CBA. That's why we want a new one and have done since the last one reached it's expiration. We want to move on!

Getting rid of Polar is a ludicrous statement to accuse our MEC of. We put our jobs on the line to support you and your strike. That's over with, with absolutely no thanks, but let's move on!

Accusations of working with Cato to demonize and get rid of Polar are absolutely straight out of cloud cuckoo land. Please back that up or move on!

Atlas crewmembers are asking tough questions but it's not about our MEC it's about the total lack of support at ALPA national level and what we Atlas pilots can do about it. We...are moving on!

[hvydriver]

>At least Astar got rid of the MEC chairman that buddied up with your Henderson that towed the same line and rhetoric.<

Untrue. No one on any of our MEC's has ever "toed" the same line and rhetoric as Henderson. Our recall of one of our MEC's had nothing to do with that, and everything to do with negotiations. I've had chats with Henderson after the ILN integration. At no time did he ever make references like that about ABX in my presence. Don't be dragging us into the AAWWH soap opera, please. You have quite a full cast of characters on your own, with out adding any more.

[joetommy]

How about a little help with my previous question.

THANKS

[atlast]

If Polar wins its no merger arbitration, what would that do to the Atlas/Teamster single carrier status plan?

It would not affect Atlas crewmembers going to Teamsters.

Or do you mean, "Single carrier status" as regards union voting.

Or do you mean the two airlines merged under one SCBA because that next step would be down to the company.

Personally, with the merged seniority list, I'm going to take a good slide down the pecking order, but I'm ready TO MOVE ON!

[WhaleFR8]

Mark,
No one at Atlas and no-one I know is 'Demonizing' the average Polar crewmember. As all of us have said MANY MANY times before, we do not want you to go away. We just want to get the merger done and GET ON WITH life. Get to our new scope clause negotiations, get to our new compensation negotiations (although the losses in bargaining power are now in the Millions - no thanks to Bobb Henderson, Robin Hair, and Mark Hoover).

So your statements are ridiculous. You sound like a little boy - "they don't like me - they want to hurt me - MOMMY!"

The real issue here is WHY don't you want to merge. Just answer that. WHY? You will have access to a growing fleet, expanding routes, and be able to get to your (our) contract negotiations.

Your courage is commendable but what are you fighting for? A scope Clause? Why? Do you want to be your own stand alone airlines? WHY? With only five airplanes and a very small route structure? WHY? This is beyond childish and silly.

You don't like the thought of merging with Atlas, even though you actually liked it several years ago when you thought the merged list was going to increase your seniority. Yet you have the temerity to accuse the Atlas MEC of only looking out for their best interests? WHY? Why did you want to merge before but don't now?

I heard the furlough notices are in the mail. Wouldn't an MEC that wanted to serve its members try hard to work with all parties involved to actually PREVENT furloughs? WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? I heard the ANC basing event has already been explained to the Polar MEC? WHY haven't you told your crews yet? WHY?

You make some serious accusations Mark for someone in a glass house.....


Joetommy - there is no "Atlas/Teamster single carrier plan." Simple. Atlas pilots will soon be teamsters with or without the Polar pilots. In fact, through all of this there was some hard work done to keep ALPA from petitioning for a Single carrier status. If single carrier status happens it will be from Bobbrobin requesting it, not from the Atlas guys. And we all know how the company feels. But to answer your larger question, when it comes time to negotiate the merged contract, there will be 750+ Atlas/Teamster guys voting and 123 Polar/ALPA guys voting.

[EJetCA]

How about a little help with my previous question.

I have no clue, brother. I can hardly read these threads, as it makes my head hurt.

I read stuff like this:Your courage is commendable but what are you fighting for? A scope Clause? Why?

What productive discussion can really occur?

I spoke my piece.

Cheers and beers.

[WhaleFR8]

JT - nope. Single carrier status is not a major selling point. There are too many other reasons to go Teamsters.

Ejet. The point I am trying to make is why fight for a scope clause that will cause the loss of ALL jobs and cause the airline to go away. Wouldn't it be smarter to finish the merger and negotiate for a decent scope clause and decent wages. There certainly is a small chance to find an arbitrator who will rule in favor of Bobbrobin. That is what they want to do; delay delay while filing continuous grievances and hope to get an arbitrator that will rule favorably for them. But my question is, To what end? And, are you all willing to bet your jobs on that small chance? What will be the end result? And the really big question is are you all playing right into Prater and Helling's hands?

I have said this before and will continue to say it. Don't win the battle if you don't want to lose the war. Look at what Polar has already lost. With the June furloughs they will be roughly 1/3 the size they were when Bobb took office. In fact they will be EXACTLY the size that the Atlas merger committee said they would be. 123 pilots. With 516 coming back to Atlas, Polar will be down to 5 planes running a few Japan routes and one SA route. All under Bobbrobins tenure.

How long will the shrinkage continue - and WHY? Wouldn't it be better to merge and all work together to get to a decent contract. Many of the Atlas pilots, as Atlast said, will be losing seniority - but all are willing to do so because it is what was agreed on when they agreed on "binding arbitration," because they want to get to the merged contract negotiations. That is impossible right now due to Bobbmarkrobin.

[BillyBob521]

Why don't you both post your scope clauses here and we can all look at them and the one with the worst scope claus has the worst MEC. Now that is a simple solution to the whole argument.

[WhaleFR8]

How do you figure that - neither MEC was in office when the scope clauses were negotiated and both clauses were negotiated with different companies.

[EJetCA]

The point I am trying to make is why fight for a scope clause that will cause the loss of ALL jobs and cause the airline to go away. Wouldn't it be smarter to finish the merger and negotiate for a decent scope clause and decent wages. There certainly is a small chance to find an arbitrator who will rule in favor of Bobbrobin. That is what they want to do; delay delay while filing continuous grievances and hope to get an arbitrator that will rule favorably for them. But my question is, To what end? And, are you all willing to bet your jobs on that small chance? What will be the end result? And the really big question is are you all playing right into Prater and Helling's hands?

I have said this before and will continue to say it. Don't win the battle if you don't want to lose the war. Look at what Polar has already lost. With the June furloughs they will be roughly 1/3 the size they were when Bobb took office. In fact they will be EXACTLY the size that the Atlas merger committee said they would be. 123 pilots. With 516 coming back to Atlas, Polar will be down to 5 planes running a few Japan routes and one SA route. All under Bobbrobins tenure.

How long will the shrinkage continue - and WHY? Wouldn't it be better to merge and all work together to get to a decent contract. Many of the Atlas pilots, as Atlast said, will be losing seniority - but all are willing to do so because it is what was agreed on when they agreed on "binding arbitration," because they want to get to the merged contract negotiations. That is impossible right now due to Bobbmarkrobin.

Just FYI, this will be my last post on any AAWH crap. This is it because it is pointless, and you are stuck in a mindset and bound not to change. Do you read what you write? Do you think about what you are saying? Did you look what AAWH did?

You are so stuck on a push that was driven by AAWH under different times and conditions. Regardless of the road travelled, look at the beginning and where we're at now.

In the beginning they said "one airline, one certificate, one pilot group". Both groups agreed to this fact. Under the above conditions, the merger process was begun. The COMPANY changed the game when they sold 49% of PO. That is a MAJOR change in what was presented. I would never continue a deal when a major tenant is changed, I wouldn't expect my MEC to either. I'm sure you can understand that. Thinking about that, I don't understand why the 5Y MEC wasn't upset about the restructuring.

The most contankerous of all merger issues, seniority, was settled. Done. Everyone agreed, it was arbitrated, and appearantly done well, as pilots from both sides complained. If there is one good-faith indication of commitment to a merger, a completed seniority list is pretty high up on the list.

After that was complete PO had a minority share sold off, and is to be maintained as a seperate certificate. PO pilots are disagreeing with 5Y pilots and the company on what constitutes a "complete operational merger". The grievance process is on going. Instead of letting it maintain it's course, people get on pprune and bitch about PO's foot dragging. Do you think the process would have gone any faster if it was 5Y filing the grievance?

Why fight for scope in an existing CBA? That may be the dumbest question (rhetorical or not) of a union member ever asked. SCOPE is the only thing that keeps us in work. The rest of the CBA is worthless without any jobs to have. Go back and read the post where the merged items are listed. About 0 are operational. Everything listed was ADMINISTRATIVE. The OpSpecs are identical verbiage because all opspecs are created equal. An operator looks at the menu and orders the paragraphs they want. One would imagine our opspecs look damn near identical to Connie's or Southern's.

You keep saying Polar is delaying. I think the company did a pretty good job taking up the 3 days of scheduled arbitration on their grievance.

Speaking of that, how come you have NEVER once assigned any blame on the company?

Here are the threats:

1) Polar will be a 6 airplane fleet forever. You don't wanna be a 6 airplane fleet.
2) Polar is not economical as a 6 airplane fleet (GSS appearantly makes money flying 3 -400s around. That's 3 airplanes that 5Y or PO pilots SHOULD be flying.....and yes I have been under a scope clause where GSS could exist, but would be flown by unionized pilots of the parent company)
3) We're going to ship all ya'll up to ANC
4) PO will be a 1 airplane airline.
5) 516 is going back to the lessor

BTW, according to our CBA, they can't furlough when alliance flying is occuring. JC sent out a copy of the alliance flying agreement.

Do you really think DHL will pull all the flying if PO wins the arbitrations, and remain a separate group? Would AAWH go through all this dog-and-pony show about DHL in EVERY SINGLE presentation if they thought it was a shaky contract? Did you read the BSA and the FSA?

They do a great job hyping up all the work they have for 5Y, and for PO, so why is either company threatened for a work-force reduction?

Polar was already awarded more flying for DHL and the aiplanes are ACMI from Atlas with Atlas Crews flying them. (Look up the press release yourself).

Do you really think the airline will be shut down due to one grievance? The shareholders will put the uppermanagement's heads on spears and drag their bodies through the townsquare if the f-up the DHL deal.

What happens if they remove the PO pilots from the PO certificate? Will they try to remove all the pilots from the 5Y certificate next? Then will they fire all of us during negotiations when there's a group of pilots that will contract to them cheaper than we work? If the PO pilots are removed from the certificate, they will do the same for 5Y.

Follow the money. As much as they'd like to make us think they really care one way or the other about this, but they have a publicly-traded company to run. They pay those mofos big money to make the stock price go up. If PO tanks, they stock will drop. If they drop the DHL deal, there will be no one in upper management you'd recognize.

These boys wanna play in the big leagues. They care about $$$. The CFO, at the April 14 investor day (it's the one where there was one VP left off the flow chart.). was asked how much senior captains make. He guessed "200 grand all-in". They did know that they are able to stretch the 5Y workforce by 24% due to the "flexibility (ie involuntary extension)" of the Atlas crews. They don't know what they pay you, but they know it's cheaper to pay a premium for extension than hire more crews and let you have a life.

At the end of the day, they'll grow the company regardless of one pilot group or 2. This isn't going to be the end of the world for PO if we win, and it won't be the end of the world for 5Y either.

No matter what the outcome is, I'll go to work, flip my switches and look forward to seeing my family as soon as I can, whether it's here, Connie's or god knows where.

Oh, please re-read my post about the Teamsters. Been there, done that.

fly safe, and you best hope for us all.

[cptvac]

Whale

Your comment about furlough notices goes a long way to demonstrate the disgusting relationship the Atlas MEC has with Cato and why the Polar side distrusts that MEC. Indeed, Cato was busy engineering more nonsense to coerce Polar and set Dave up in his position today. The boat has sailed on dealing with either.

Polar crewmembers have made clear that they will not be intimidated and want no part of a merger that violates their CBA, and dooms them to the Atlas CBA minus concessions--no doubt the bargaining would be 2v1.

Whale, you've gloated over the misfortune heaped on Polar crewmembers who are only defending their rights. You eagerly anticipate and approve of more coercion by the Cato/Bourne team to damage Polar crewmembers, and the transfer of more flying. You applaud the actions of an MEC who sends Paul Alves to testify against the Polar FEs, and keep them out of work. You continue to blame another MEC for delays in your negotiations, when your own leadership sold the Atlas crewmembers down the river with two LOAs delaying Section 6 negotiations in return for their precious Flight Pay Loss. LOAs that the Polar MEC refused to sign. TRAGIC. You, Whale, and your pathetic minority make the Polar case for staying clear.

Atlas crewmembers know the truth. As always, I hope they will make decisions which will finally give them some representation. The "many" have tolerated these "few" for too damn long. This Teamsters nonsense is a gamble that will have implications far beyond keeping Dave and John employed (and Tom busy posting)--it has been expected for a long time.

[jocko2000]

If the cat is out of the bag for some, let the rest of us know. It sounds like an announcement was made.

[nitty-gritty]

Our recall of one of our MEC's had nothing to do with that, and everything to do with negotiations. I've had chats with Henderson after the ILN integration. At no time did he ever make references like that about ABX in my presence. Don't be dragging us into the AAWWH soap opera, please. You have quite a full cast of characters on your own, with out adding any more.

I wasn't referring that he was a patsy of Henderson. Just doing everything in a similar manner. Since he got recalled, that just explains matters even more.

The scab statement was made by Henderson at the Global Pilots Alliance meeting with Heir Buchner (sp?) that Henderson crashed uninvited. The statement was made while the ABX 1224 VP was standing within earshot of Henderson making the statement to your now departed chairman.

Whether you canned him for his negotiations ability or what ever, we don't care now that he is gone.

[hvydriver]

Since I had a direct line to those meetings, and nothing like that was ever reported being said, I doubt your story has merit. I also chat with ABX pilots. I'm confident that if such a thing had been said, I'd have heard about it. Like I said. Leave us out of your train wreck.

>Since he got recalled, that just explains matters even more.<

No, he was not recalled. He was the sacrificial lamb so our beloved CEO could save a little face. He was moved to the Vice Chair position after the TA was announced. And he resigned after the contract was put out for ratification, which was his stated intent when he was put in office in the first place. We recalled our previous MEC because they were going to sign off on a concessionary contract. Now that its been clarified what went on at our little corner of the field, I'm outta here.

[layinlow]

Are you saying you walked the line with us? Funny,I didn't see any Atlas crews on the shifts that I worked. Just how did you put your job on the line?
You know, for years now I have heard so much dribble about the other shoe dropping at Polar, and it never seems to happen. Over the years various tricks have been used. For instance, we know that merc9 and whale were able to access our IP addresses for their much touted lawsuit that went nowhere. Which reminds me to tell all you out there to watch you back, these two may have your account IP addresses and any log on names you use may be compromised. There is no doubt that Bourne and Caputo worked and still work doing Cato's bidding. Too much get out concerning confidential material for it not to.
If Atlas wants to go to the Teamsters, fine; but ask yourself this: What's in it for me vs. whats in it for the company? Sure you have a nasty contract. Well, go ahead and get it fixed!! Don't you think that Cato may be using this merger (that is probably not going to happen, was never meant to) as distraction from keeping you from doing just that? Management is just fine with the CBA. Are you? And while I am at it, would the Teamsters makes it look any better, and if so how long would that take? Does the Teamsters have a plan that will guarantee anything to you?
I mentioned earlier that I would like to see a merger, because the company doesn't. So, how can they delay it. Easy, knowing that one MEC strictly interprets the CBA, why not try to merge in violation of their scope clause and use the other MEC as a willing, or unwitting, accomplice. That way they can:
1. Divide and conquer
2. Continue to use Stanstead to the detriment of the crew member
3. Continue to use IRS tax implications so you will not use the gateway you so hard fought for.
4. Give the minions a once a years profit sharing bonus and tell them how good they have it.
5. Open a new venue in Ireland
5. Possibility to suspend a current CBA and delay negotiating a new one while the "new union gets in place"
Go and change if you want but all you will have accomplished is to leave ALPA and I seriously doubt you would have improved you position with the company.

[whaledriver101]

In all of my years of commercial flying(20+) I have never in my life seen an MEC so unstable, without direction and lacking in leadership than the Atlas MEC. But that is typical. It trullely mirrors an AAWW management team that has the exact same qualities. I can honestly say how fortunate(and lucky) I am to have an MEC with direction and leadership. If I were an Atlas crewmember, with the instability and the "we dont really know what to do" attitude. I would be afraid. Very afraid.

[joetommy]

The Atlas MEC is doing a good job. Circumstances, unfortunately, constantly hinder them. First it was someone in the polar union who subverted the Atlas strike. Then the polar union prevented the Atlas pilots from getting a contract. Then ALPA national took all the dues and further prevented a merger. Then management forced the Atlas pilots to work hideous schedules, go to outbases for 30 days, and accept Stansted (even though there is little to no flying directly out of Stansted).


None of this could have been foreseen or prevented. A move to a new union should solve most of the problems.

[BillyBob521]

It will solve a big problem for ALPA.

[atlast]

Layinlow : "Just how did you put your job on the line?" When the Chief Pilot gets my private personal cellphone number from out of the blue and tells me to enter BLDG 23 at JFK or I'm fired and I tell him no, it's a picketted building even though there are no pickets there, I call that putting my job on the line.
Now let it go and move on.

Biilybob521 : It won't solve ALPA's problem. They want us close to keep control and they want our dues in the face of declining revenue. We're moving on.

Whaledriver101 : Atlas MEC has direction and leadership and Atlas crewmembers approve of that direction and leadership. We're moving on.

Layinlow : To say that John and Dave are doing Cato's bidding is insane and I ask you once again to prove that absurdity. Divide and conquer you say; Atlas and Polar crew will be no more divided than they are already. We're throwing out an olive branch so we can all move on together.

CptVac : I'm still laughing but I have to admit you said something truthful,
"Atlas crewmembers know the truth." We absolutely do; that truth enables us to move on.

EJetCA : Don't leave the thread, you have some good points and it's a good read. You really seem as if you want to move on.

[742]

It will solve a big problem for ALPA.


Then we all win. After 19 years of ALPA membership, including committee work--bye. I will try not to let the door hit me on the way out.

[layinlow]

atlast
Putting your job on the line means not going into the building like one of your brethren did in Miami. He got fired and was subsequently rehired at the insistence of the Polar union who refused to agree to a settlement until everyone at Atlas who was fired for not crossing was rehired. That is putting your job on the line. Wear your battle star well.

[atlast]

Layinlow : I'm sorry bud, I don't get it. I stood up for you and this is how you treat me? I do wear my battlestar; with pride.

Quit Laying Low. Get up and move on!

[nopricenow]

The issue with Atlas, Polar, Management and ALPA is not a unique situation. It is a window into things to come… and ALPA National is doing its best to avoid stoppages in its major income sources.

Atlas and Polar are fairly small entities. If ALPA was a real corporation, these two problem children would be tax write-offs or even perhaps a charitable donation. But they represent more to ALPA as the major airlines become 2 or 3 mega-carriers. Atlas and Polar cannot ever be seen as a smooth merger attempt. They are the message sent to the mega-carriers that smooth mergers will never occur.

Atlas/Polar have an even heavier burden for ALPA- the Cato factor. Mr. Cato was considered for a higher position with a real airline as his management techniques, while quite unusual, were effective. Mass firings and brutal divisive tactics against a unified labor force, formed a pattern that ALPA did not want to face at their major sources. Now, with an incompetent merger process marred with delays, labor strife, and severe financial losses, Mr. Cato has been effectively “contained” at Atlas/Polar, FOREVER! (President Reagan’s prized tactic is extremely effective, but slow in results.) Keep this disciple of Frank Lorenzo and Carl Icahn in a position where he cannot harm the real airlines!

So, Atlas/Polar is the front line defense in the upcoming merger process where airlines will become like Walmart… U-mart Air, D-mart Air, and NW-mart Air, are all pervasive entities of the future. ALPA National would rather contain them now - Launch the drones!

[rob rilly]

I'm sorry bud, I don't get it. I stood up for you and this is how you treat me? I do wear my battlestar; with pride.

Quit Laying Low. Get up and move on!

Excuse me, battle star ? Where and when did you walk ? We all eagerly wait your answer. If you earned it, now you throw it away for Teamsters ! You make us laugh in the industry.

[layinlow]

Good question. I know it wasn't Miami. The only Atlas brother didn't walk but did refuse to cross the line. He was fired, then rehired and is a Captain.
Great guy too. The others, embarked and disembarked at the back of the building. Maybe they were walking there and we just didn't know it. The Miami Springs PD limited us to the front of the building. I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt.

[atlast]

Rob Rilly : Not only did I refuse to cross your virtual picket line at JFK Bldg 23 you guys got it all on video! AND when the Port Authority Police arrived and declared it a non legal picket line, I still refused even after the Police sent your video team packing. The Connie crew just went straight in to work but we supported you. I don't know what else short of physically bleeding you really want? MOVE ON, because the Industry is not laughing WITH you.

When and if we go to Teamsters I shall take the pin off and replace it with a Teamsters pin because that's what you do when you are in a professional union that the majority of your Brothers & Sisters have voted for. MOVE ON!

BB. BATTLE STAR PINS
SOURCE - Executive Board May 2000
A Master Executive Council, with approval of the Executive Council, may authorize those members who have engaged in a strike against management of that MEC's airline to wear ALPA "Battle Star" pins.
However, no MEC may retroactively authorize or rescind a “Battle Star” authorized by a previous MEC.

[nitty-gritty]

To take break from the usual BS here, I thought I would forward some stuff the Polar guys probably don't get from their MEC. We got it on the Atlas side when it was CC'd to the Atlas MEC.

Open Letter to Henderson from Cato (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=42887) in PDF. Mostly on a response to Mr. Henderson's VARS of 04-18-2008. Pretty long and detailed.

[nitty-gritty]

Oh, just got this one also.

Press Release of Atlas MEC Chairman Dave Bourne becoming Teamsters Airline Division Director.

Release 05-1-2008 in PDF (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=42897)

Memo form James P Hoffa on it
Memo in PDF (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=42896)

[rob rilly]

Over 200 Polar Guys got that e-mail, so are you special..... Get over yourself , Nitty!

[rob rilly]

what else short of physically bleeding you really want? MOVE ON, because the Industry is not laughing WITH you.


Sorry to tell you this but, The Industry has LAUGHED at Atlas for a few years now. Since you signed that contract !

[cptvac]

Dave's rushing the new frat...what won't he do or say to get what he wants? This will be costly.

[atlast]

Rob Rilly: You certainly come out with some inane stuff but,
"Sorry to tell you this, The Industry has LAUGHED at Atlas for a few years now, Since you signed that contract !"
is certainly an inane rejoinder.
I look around at other airmen's CBA's and some are good, some are bad, some parts are desirable BUT I would NEVER LAUGH at another professional pilot's CBA . To do so would be the very definition of UNPROFESSIONALISM.
As I said earlier, " the Industry is not laughing WITH you "

MOVE ON!

nitty-gritty : Thanks for putting out the information, good or bad, for all to see and make either informed comment upon or otherwise. :D

[atlast]

cptvac: Dave's rushing the new frat...what won't he do or say to get what he wants? This will be costly.

So you're saying that the new Director of the Airline division of the IBT knowing your particular airline intimately is a bad thing? It will be costly how?

Quit dipping into the broth of inanity and contribute something. MOVE ON!

[cptvac]

Dave MUST deliver the Atlas crewmembers to the Teamsters, otherwise he will not have his position for long. Conflict of interest? Dave will promise the world to Atlas crewmembers because of his new position.

The cost will be high to the Teamsters, to ALPA and Polar in the coming Single Carrier battle, and highest of all to the Atlas crewmembers who will make great sacrifices in their leap of faith to benefit a select few. Clear?

[atlast]

Polyp: I can’t believe all this bickering between the crews of these two freight carriers. I work for a “real” airline; one that carries passengers.
There certainly is some bickering but also some healthy dialogue in between that hopefully will enable US to move on. That "Real" airline quote
however belongs in the broth of inanity. At the current time, your so called,
" Real " airlines are all bleeding billions of dollars. The cargo carriers are faring from a little to a lot better.

CptVac: Do you really think Dave's new position hinges solely upon Atlas crewmembers coming over? Do you not think it may have something to do with his ability to do the job?
Cost to Teamsters? What cost?
Cost to ALPA? They don't want us. Read their stated position on ACMI carriers.
Cost to Polar? What cost? We'll support you; we just won't be paying for you.
Cost to Atlas crewmembers? No cost, we're moving on!

[jocko2000]

After I stopped laughing I actually felt bad for the average Atlas crew member. Dave Bourne is a masterful politician to say the least. He has leveraged his pilot group into a new position for himself all the while selling the union members a promise. I know the people on the board are die hard Bourne fans, however, he really used you guys to gain a position for himself. It won't matter what the final vote is, he already demonstrated his capability for the teamsters. He will be there for awhile. What you have to ask yourself is what can he really do for you? There is only so much money allocated towards airlines at the teamsters, I was one at another airline. We never saw them or much money from them. I cannot wonder how the Atlas pilots will not feel used and betrayed. Good luck with the revolt.

[atlast]

Jocko 2000 : Dave has not led " the revolt ". There is no feeling of being used or of betrayal. I'm looking forward to the future; knowing the head of your union is a freightdog is a good thing. Prater & ALPA are anti-ACMI. Teamsters can not be worse. My last outfit was Teamsters and I look forward to the future. Even if " the revolt " is not successful, we are sending a message. WE'RE MOVING ON!

[jocko2000]

My apologies Atlast, I meant the revolt from the crew members who will have felt used. I appreciate the fact of moving on. I agree with you on that aspect. I agree with and have said it before about putting the strike behind us. Trust me, for all our sakes, I hope everything works out for you guys for we are intertwined. For any Polar or Atlas guy to wish ill will on the other is only self defeating. Who knows the Teamsters could be a good thing, but you have to admit that the timing on all this is a little fishy. Someone once told me a saying and I think it is probably correct, "Perception is reality". Watch what people perceive because that is going to be the reality they accept. All in all, good luck.

[atlast]

jocko2000For any Polar or Atlas guy to wish ill will on the other is only self defeating True dat!:ok:

Sir or Madam,
I meet you halfway, as i am in fact, no believer in coincidence either. However, about "Perception is reality". Remember that your perception is tainted by your judgement, which is changeable and that "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Fancy ways of saying, "We'll see!"

REVOLTING and MOVING ON!

[Fr8Dog]

"I can’t believe all this bickering between the crews of these two freight carriers. I work for a “real” airline; one that carries passengers."

Chris, How dare you! and with your stock at $5.06 and ours at $62.00 :=

[layinlow]

Nitty letter was from Cato. 'Nuff said

[Fr8Dog]

Mr. Polyp, As of 1400 Z today AAWW $62.49 JBLU $4.98 Guess all of those pax make the big $$ yup!:D

[atlast]

layinlow: Nitty letter was from Cato. 'Nuff said

We all appreciate getting to look at these documents. In the furtherance of truth and the understanding of other Professional Pilots, why don't you post them instead? I'm sure Nitty would appreciate the break and allow him to MOVE ON.

Interesting, in a Kevin Bacon way or maybe not:

'Nuff Said is attributed to Stan Lee from Marvel Comics. Marvel comics emerged from a company called Atlas Comics.

[trashhauler]

Nice catch!
On the serious side though. Over the years the Atlas MEC and those on this forum have touted how the Atlas MEC has done this for them, done that for them, has an inroads to various ALPA committees, I could go on and on. Now we know that this was all poppycock. If I were and Atlas crew member I would ask how my money was being spent, and how much real effort was being made my Bourne in my behalf while he was in behind the scenes scheming. You don't really believe this came out of the blue do you? This had to be a long process. Given the close relationship with Cato and the council, I would be very careful in jumping into the bed with those two (didn't you throw out one of your committee chairman when you found him to be a Cato mole?). Come on now, why did Cato send a letter meant for the Polar MEC to the Alas MEC?
If the Atlas crews jump to the Teamsters, that is their choice, I just hope they do it with their eyes wide open. To me, there is something definitely rotten and stinks to high heaven. Whether it is Bourne/Cato, Bourne Teamsters,Bourne/Teanmsters/Cato, or something else, don't let your exasperation with the slow pace of the Polar negotiations cloud your good judgement. Things are never, ever, greener on the other side of the fence. And if after all that, you feel it is your best interest, bon voyage!

[Po Boy]

rob rilly

Sorry to tell you this but, The Industry has LAUGHED at Atlas for a few years now. Since you signed that contract !


If they're laughing, it's not too loud. I'm willing to compare W2's with a lot of other industry guys, who have endured furloughs, pay and benefit cuts, downsizing due to the cost of rising fuel. At Atlas Air, we did not furlough or cut pay while in babkruptcy, we're still hiring, getting 2 more 400's this year and will be taking delivery of brand new 747-8's in a little over 2 years from now, our stock is at an all time high, and lets not forget our record profit sharing checks $$$$$

I'll admit our CBA is not the best, but I'm willing to work with our MEC to get a better contract next time around, would have been better if we were a combined work force to take on the company, but many polaroids think they're better off going it alone...good luck

[atlast]

Trash hauler: Considering what a crappy contract we have, I and others, believe our MEC has done a great job.
As for where our dues money is going, it would appear that an extremely large chunk of it is going indirectly to the Polar MEC. We however keep paying because that is what Union brothers and Sisters do.
As for the copies of Cato's letters to our MEC, it's Cato mileage. He's extremely good at what he does. The old divide, conquer, manipulate routine. If he thought he could get an extra millimeter of leverage, he'd do it in a Purchase minute. Come on, think about it; you know the guy. One little CC to our MEC has got you wound up a little more than that millimeter eh? He's winning.
As for Dave's new position, I think he's going to be great and to have the head of the airline division know your position first hand is a tremendous boon. As to how he got there, is it not analogous with being at an airline and sending your resume out to other airlines? Ever done that?
As for greener on the other side, we're about fed up with how ALPA has paved over our yard. WE'RE MOVING ON!


Oh by the way, trash hauler is an anagram of ATLAS ERR HUH!;)

[742]

If they're laughing, it's not too loud. I'm willing to compare W2's with a lot of other industry guys,

I have friends at most of the majors, and they don't find my Atlas pay and schedule to be a funny matter at all. For example I am making more, and home more, than one guy who is a United Checkairman--and been there longer than I have been at Atlas.

And then there is this. My pay at Atlas: $172/hour plus 13% profit sharing. If I were at Polar: $147.

The Polar pilot group, or parts of it, have always looked down on Atlas. And then they got bought by them when they were expecting to "save" United, FDX or UPS. All this noise flows from that.

[rob rilly]

742 And then there is this. My pay at Atlas: $172/hour plus 13% profit sharing. If I were at Polar: $147.


Well Son, as you get older you'll find money wasn't everything. Quality of life would have been better. Good Luck to you. I got mine, retired to play golf.

[atlast]

Rob Rilly: Congratulations to you. This is not an easy job to navigate through to the other side. Enjoy your Golf; I'm pleased that YOU'VE MOVED ON.:ok:

[742]

Well Son, as you get older you'll find money wasn't everything. Quality of life would have been better. Good Luck to you. I got mine, retired to play golf.

Jan: Home for 17 days.
Feb: Home for 16 days (Airline Feb, one day from Jan and Mar included).
Mar: Home for 15 days.
Apr: Home for 14 days.

Good luck in retirement.

[BettyLou]

:ok:Cato can send the Polar pilots to the top of the world ... His fuel bill will soar to the same height.

[nitty-gritty]

I could see that happening very easily.

Then they would move the flying to someone else as they have done in the past.

Merging would probably solve this whipsawing between the groups that has been going on since Polar was purchased so many years ago. Worked to Polar's advantage at one time when they thought their scope clause would allow them to gain others flying and keep it for themselves -forever- not thinking that it was going to happen to them later on during their negotiations. The scope clause only changed slightly the tactics the holding company uses on moving the flying back and forth.

And it will continue until we are merged.

[cptvac]

"Ultimatum" and "Conspiracy". How incredibly accurate.

[atlast]

cptvac: "Ultimatum" and "Conspiracy". How incredibly accurate.

Sir/ Madam,
I'm not sure if our understandings are the same, but it seems like we are starting to agree. Perhaps we are starting TO MOVE ON and it's all due to BOURNE, albeit Jason! :ok:

[atlast]

BettyLou: Cato can send the Polar pilots to the top of the world ... His fuel bill will soar to the same height.

This is not the posting of a Professional Pilot!

I believe that if you have a problem, redress is thru your MEC via your CBA.
Remember, " MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME "

MOVE UP & MOVE ON!

[BillyBob521]

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!

[atlast]

BillyBob521: Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!

What sort of rejoinder is that? What exactly are you referring to? If you are looking for an answer, please ask a question; If you are posting a rumor, please be a Professional Pilot. WE'RE MOVING ON! JOIN US.

[BillyBob521]

I wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole. Good luck been with teamsters seen it, it sucks. Make sure you have you teamsters Fee I think it is 150$ to join then you pay your dues. I hope it works out for you and your professional pilots!

[atlast]

Excellent reply BillyBob521; there's nothing like good healthy discussion and I believe you have contributed nothing like good healthy discussion.
I could be wrong, so why don't you explain your position? Isn't it something to do with a black kettle on the end of a 10 foot pole? I'm sure there is a Professional Pilot link in there somewhere.
Anyway, we appreciate your recognition of our professionalism and we're sure it will work out because WE'RE MOVING ON!

[rob rilly]

I believe that if you have a problem, redress is thru your MEC via your CBA.
Remember, " MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME "


A phrase by Polar to support Bobb ! How cute......Now you are Movin' On

Too funny

[atlast]

:=I don't think so!

Rob Rilly: " MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME " A phrase by Polar to support Bobb ! How cute......Now you are Movin' On


" MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME " was uttered during Southern Air Transport's drive to unionize (The original SAT) back in '97/'98 and I don't think we were the original coiners of the phrase then! I've still got some of the little round stickers somewhere. It predates Bobb by a long stretch!

WE REALLY ARE MOVING ON!:D

Incidentally, POLAR first started by bootstrapping off of Southern's Certificate. Now there's a link!

[rob rilly]

Incidentally, POLAR first started by bootstrapping off of Southern's Certificate. Now there's a link!

Duh ! And Atlas got theirs off Tower, thanks to me and a few others (A/C 505). I was also with Dick Dunn at SAT getting the Cert done.

You seem to be finding out things others have known for years.

And you might just be Moving on up to the East Side, Mr. Jefferson....

[BELOWMINS]

Actually they both got started using Tower to carry their freight until they got certificates.
Probably the first and last thing they have in common.

[atlast]

Rob Rilly: Duh?!? This stuff may not be new to you or I, but it's news to some of the PPrune surfers who've been starved of factual information. Not only that but it gets people talking, rather than just spraying invective. A little substantive posting isn't a bad thing. In that vein, you might have to explain your East Side, Mr Jefferson, comment.:confused:

Belowmins: Yes, Sir. Inextricably linked, in this business with only one degree of separation.

This thread may just be MOVING ON! (finally):)

[WhaleFR8]

Actually they both got started using Tower to carry their freight until they got certificates. Nope. SO not true. Revisionist history from the Polar guys AGAIN.

Southern Air began business in Miami FL as a front company for the CIA. It was founded in 1947 and became a subsidiary of the CIA's airline proprietary network known as the Pacific Corporation. Even though Congress divested the Government of any for profit corporations in 1976, the Certificates were sold to a CIA lawyer named Jim Bastian who continued to operate the airline for the CIA. He even wet leased his L382s to a group of Pilots called "East Inc." who then operated directly for the CIA. Bastian owned SAT until the Bankruptcy in 1998 and his death in 1999.

Tower on the other hand was co-founded, majority owned, and managed by Morris K. Nachtomi, who was an Israeli who immigrated to the US in 1981. He had been employed by El Al and when he came to the US he started working with a company called Tower Travel Corporation. 1n 1982 he co-founded Tower Air with Zev Melamid, Mordechi Gill, and Sam Fondlier.

Tower Air filed for Chapter 11 in Feb of 2000 (Feb 29th to be exact) and ceased all operations on May 1st of that year, surrendering its FAA certificate in November of 2000.

Polar was formed in 1993 as a joint venture between Southern Air Transport and Jack Welch's GE Capital Aviation Services which had a bunch of old Flying Tigers lease returns (from Polaris Leasing, a division of GCAS) just sitting around. Polar began operations in June of 1993 with Charter flights and gained its Supplemental Certificate in 1994. After several years of modest growth, the entire company was acquired by GECAS.

In November of 2001 Polar was acquired by Atlas Air World Wide Holdings a company formed by upstreaming profits from Atlas Air Inc. and indeed having all of the same major officers as Atlas Air.

[layinlow]

Wrongo ther whale
Polar was started not my Southern nor Jack Welch , although he may have had a hand in aircraft aquisitions, but by Ned Wallace who was the marketing guy for Flying Tigers.

[atlast]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_Air

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Air_Transport

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Air_Cargo

Wikipedia has some of the information, but by no means, all of the information, and indeed some mis-information. Welcome to life!
It's time to throw all those old uniforms out of the closet and move on I guess.

[atlast]

Layinlow: Some agreement there! Ned had the plan and the contacts with promises but he didn't have all the money or the airframes. SAT had the quick paper way to get it started. Many fingers, pies and backs getting scratched, that's for sure! :)

[BELOWMINS]

Whale
Both Ned Wallace and Michael Chowdry approached Morris Nachtomi about operating freighters they would provide prior to getting operating certificates. Tower operated N505MC for Chowdry and a GATX door conversion for Ned. I was involved in the planning, set up stations in Hong Kong (Ned) and Taiwan (Chowdry). Ned subsequently started Polar and Chowdry, Atlas. There are quite a few Tower Air crewmembers who were involved. Are they all victims of revisionist history?.

[layinlow]

There are a ton of stories on a ton of startups and they seem to last a few years or so using the same players and only a few that survive for any time. So what's new with the Polar/Atlas story. Nothing changed, nothing will change. These "outfits" have learned to reinvent themselves every few years under a now name with someone else's money.

[atlast]

Doing the reverse start for a new company, as Tower did, is a very effective means of providing the new service to your new customer straight away without having your own infrastructure in place and until you can become self reliant.

belowmins: Now there's some good stuff; thanks for sharing. Why don't you go to Wikipedia and submit that information for update?

[atlast]

So what's new with the Polar/Atlas story. Nothing changed, nothing will change.
layinlow:I do agree with the first line of your post on start-ups. I don't agree with the Nothing will change statement though. 400's,800's,DHL and more money in cash and cash equivalents than debt. IT's changed, IT will change and WE'RE MOVING ON!

[WhaleFR8]

Sorry guys Tower may have operated an aircraft for anyone at anytime. But Polar was started by Jack Welch and GE from Polaris leasing - read his book. Polar initially operated under the Southern Air Transport certificate which is a whole lot different than someone operating an airplane for you. Tower may indeed have operated an airplane for Atlas - I wasn't here then and I don't know. But I do know that Southern Air did NOT spring from Tower - which is what I was replying to. I doubt if Jack Welch would lie in a nationally published book. Ned Wallace may have been the head guy - but Polar was owned by GCAS, started by Jack Welch, and operated under SATs certificate.

Doesn't really matter I was only trying to illustrate yet another example of revisionist history and untruths from some on this board.

[Best Angle]

Jack Welch took credit for a lot of things other people did. Treat self-boasting books just like the internet, don't believe everything you read.

[layinlow]

Does it really matter? Polar is now with AAWWH who is trying to run them into the ground. What happend years ago has no bearing on what is happening today. I just wonder how long DHL is going to put up with this brouhaha. I hope they are a patient bunch.

[L-38]

WhaleFR8 - Other than initial ownership / partnership interest, I believe your assessment was reasonably accurate. I remember actually operating a leg of Atlas's next after inaugural flight when with Tower (and a few months later watching Southern's "snail tail" with a Polar call sign operating out of JFK).

In a somewhat joint partnership with GE, Ned Wallace provided the operational / marketing expertise (used from his Tiger days), and his leveraged investment group contributed 49% of the Polar / GE venture. Also, when later employed with Polar at it's old LGB headquarters, Ned had hinted to me that Polar's awarded Japan routes were a gift to him from his old retiring drinking buddies in Washington, along with his old Jap connections from Tigers.

I had believed, however that Tower's Morris Nachtomi, although a former El Al employee, was actually an Iraqi Jew (odd) and not Israeli. . . . in never actually meeting Morris, I may be wrong.

[Heilhaavir]

Correct L38, Nachtomi was indeed an Iraqi Jew.

[layinlow]

Is that why was able to secure all those Haj flights?

[L-38]

An Iraqi Jew operating /profiting from Hajj flights - That certainly was an ironic feat of Tower's notorious owner/CEO.

I recall that one of the airplanes used, would leak/drip it's upper deck toilet onto the front lower deck pax's after the cabin had pressurized. Mx had never seemed to be able to fix it. Hajj or not.

[rob rilly]

Morris N. was indeed born in Baghdad ................FR8, No one ever said Tower started SAT.

[atlast]

layinlow : I just wonder how long DHL is going to put up with this brouhaha. I hope they are a patient bunch.

What brouhaha?
Definition: 1890, from Fr. brouhaha (1552), said to have been, in medieval theater, "the cry of the devil disguised as clergy."

PPRuNe; the new medieval theatre?

Best Angle: Treat self-boasting books just like the internet, don't believe everything you read.

True dat! :ok:

[WhaleFR8]

From Atlast
Incidentally, POLAR first started by bootstrapping off of Southern's Certificate. Now there's a link!From BELOWMINS, a few posts above, in response to Atlast:
Actually they both got started using Tower to carry their freight until they got certificates.
Probably the first and last thing they have in common.Try to keep up willya.

[atlast]

LINK to SAT/POLAR Picture (http://www.airliners.net./photo/Polar-Air-Cargo/Boeing-747-124(SF)/0077752&sok=V0hFUkUgIChhaXJjcmFmdF9nZW5lcmljIExJS0UgJ0JvZWluZyA3NDcl JykgQU5EIChNQVRDSCAoYWlyY3JhZnQsYWlybGluZSxwbGFjZSxwaG90b19k YXRlLGNvdW50cnkscmVtYXJrLHBob3RvZ3JhcGhlcixlbWFpbCx5ZWFyLHJl ZyxhaXJjcmFmdF9nZW5lcmljLGNuLGNvZGUpIEFHQUlOU1QgKCcrIlBvbGFy IiArIlNvdXRoZXJuIicgSU4gQk9PTEVBTiBNT0RFKSkgIE9SREVSIEJZIHBo b3RvX2lkIERFU0M=&tbl=photo_info&photo_nr=10&prev_id=0087962&next_id=0057116)

[rob rilly]

Atlast, Keep up will ya !

[atlast]

RobRilly: Atlast, Keep up will ya !

I'm not keeping up; I'm moving on! :ok:

[rob rilly]

We know.....just a very old catch phrase. Seems you are sure to wear it out at this rate. I've been Teamsters before, you can't imagine what you are in for. Good Luck.

[atlast]

RobRilly: We know.....just a very old catch phrase.

I've only been using it under 2 weeks but yes, I like it because it fits.
Let's quit the rehash and move on. :D

[rob rilly]

Atlast:I've only been using it under 2 weeks but yes, I like it because it fits.
Let's quit the rehash and move on. :D

Let's, will you now......?

[cptvac]

Originally posted 28 April:


This is about a favorable outcome for Bourne and his inner circle, as engineered by Cato to end Polar. Period.

Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items. Look for the following:

1...HARD press for Teamster representation (w/ Cato support).

2...Move for Single Carrier (w/ Cato support).

3...Subsequent vote to pull Polar from ALPA (w/Cato support).

4...Bourne installed at Teamster National.

5...Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions.

6...Continuous blame of ALPA and Polar for concessionary contract from all of the above (and WhaleFr8) rings suddenly hollow with Atlas membership-

AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE...

At least Dave will still be eating in the same expensive DC restaurants on the membership dime.

[413X3]

So it looks like NWA Cargo is going down the tubes unfortunately, because of DHL shifting to Polar. Thats too bad.

[WhaleFR8]

hhhh..... Yet another grievance filed against Atlas today by Polar. Wouldn't be so bad if the remedy requested was not designed to unjustly take jobs and away from Atlas pilots. This one also will be paid for by the entire ALPA membership using an outside counsel. Does the Polar MEC not understand that they are merely the puppets of the newly elected ALPA Treasurer? He doesn't care about them. He just has some ill conceived idea that this will help keep jobs and NWA.

[atlast]

Rob Rilly: Let's, will you now......?

Consistent isn't it?

cptvac: Now your latest diatribe would fit the definiton of a brouhaha.
I will agree with Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items Of course it's not on his list of to do items! He's already doing it! Is it on the Polar MEC's to do list?

Your points ending "(w/CATO support)".... has he told you that personally?
Please share with us where you get this from after all, this is the forum to hear rumors/rumours.

Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions They will have positions if the membership vote for them. We'll have a lot of very good guys vieing for those positions. Maybe some of our Polar sisters might like a shot?

Bourne installed at Teamster National
This will happen wether Atlas go Teamsters or not and has nothing to do with Cato.

AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE... FOR THOSE THAT DON'T MOVE ON!

[BillyBob521]

Atlast your obviously a politicain, because you have the skills needed to ignore the facts. GOOD LUCK AT TEAMSTERS PLEASE JUST GO. Us actual professional pilots can't wait to shrink that SCAB LIST. By the way who cares who started ya'lls freight airlines. They were smart, they left the business.

[atlast]

BillyBob521: Atlast your obviously a politicain

I believe you meant Politician, but no I am not. I don't have a college degree and I do not even hold a union position. I am rank and file which brings some honest consistency to this thread.

because you have the skills needed to ignore the facts.

I'm having a tough time pushing aside the rumor and conjecture to find your facts, let alone ignore them!

Us actual professional pilots can't wait to shrink that SCAB LIST.
I gather by this ill informed quote that you are not an ALPA member and not a POLAR airman because both ALPA and the POLAR MEC say extremely publicly that there is no such list. If you are a POLAR airman, then by definition you can not be a professional Pilot by quoting such. What are your true colors Sir/Madam?

[nitty-gritty]

It finally dawns on me now, looking at cptvac's posting.

Polar is scared about the Atlas move to Teamsters.

Polar's purchased (by election vote) influence of Pres. Prater to keep a thumb on the Atlas council by removing funding while inequitably providing Polar more council funding, the bureaucratic stalling of the merger, filing grievance after grievance using outside lawyers requiring more National funding, and etc... It will render the current behind the scenes sabotage of the Atlas council by Polar and ALPA National pretty much nullified.

Putting us at least back on equal terms again and they don't like that.

Heck, I would vote Teamsters just so I wouldn't be funding Polar's legal fees used against me from my dues.