Listen to RYR pre flt or get off!

[beamender99]

From the Daily Telegraph

A doctor is threatening to take Ryanair to court after he claims he was thrown off a flight for chatting during the pre-flight safety briefing.
Dr Paolo Tomasi, 47, was travelling with his eight-year-old son from Alghero in Sardinia to London Stansted after a holiday.
He said he was talking to a friend while the plane was preparing for take-off and the cabin crew were giving the safety demonstration.
http://view.atdmt.com/9LM/view/tlgrpadb01400001379lm/direct/01/

"I was talking normally, and a steward asked me to be quiet, in a brusque manner," he said.
"After five minutes, when the announcements came to an end, another stewardess came up and said that I had been warned and I should have shut up. She asked if I wanted to get off the plane.”
Dr Tomasi, who is based in London, continued: "I was astonished. She said: 'Yes, I am warning you, and I will not warn you again'."
The stewardess then informed the captain about Dr Tomasi and the plane was stopped to allow airport security to remove him and his son.
Dr Tomasi said he has complained to Ryanair and demanded compensation for spending £500 to fly out the following day. He said he had informed his solicitor and is preparing to take legal action.
"I was talking in a calm and measured way, and I have a list of a number of passengers who are prepared to give evidence supporting me," he said. "One of them could not hear a word I said and was sitting just a metre and a half away."
A Ryanair spokesman said: "He refused to stop talking during the safety demonstration and was disturbing other passengers. He clearly was not listening even though he was asked to pay attention."

The item continues
It is not the first time that Ryanair has controversially removed people on the route from Sardinia.
Recently a court in London ordered the company to pay five Caribbean musicians a total of £4,000 in compensation for removing them from a flight because they were suspected of being terrorists. Michael Toussaint and his calypso band were ejected after another passenger claimed to have seen Mr Toussaint, who is blind, reading a newspaper.

[chrisr150]

Good for you Ryanair! :D

If nothing else, its just plain bad manners talking through someone else's presentation or demonstration. Hopefull this individuals legal action will be laughed straight out of court, if indeed it gets that far.

[AdamC]

I totally agree, that should be the way forward with every airline.

Even if you don't want to watch, other passengers do, it's only polite to keep quiet whilst a SAFETY briefing is in progress.. That passenger would soon want the cabin crew to repeat the whole demo should there become an emergency.

I've flown with FR far too many times for my own good, but every single time paid attention to the demo - You will forget things in an actual emergency, it's best to be briefed however many hours before it happens than a year before..

Some people really do annoy me when they are talking through the demo, it's not fair on other passengers and in my opinion certainly breaches safety :=

Ryanair or BA, I want to be safe, with usable emergency equipment onboard.. Believe it or not, I actually would like to know how to operate that equipment!!

[Avman]

OK, here we go again. First of all, I put my newspaper/book down and out of courtesy watch the briefing despite the fact it's my 100th flight on the exact same type with the exact same company. So, I fully agree with the sentiments above. However, playing Devil's Advocate, there is, to my knowledge, no LEGAL requirement for a passenger to a) watch the safety briefing or b) refrain from talking. If it were so, it should be clearly displayed in the contract of carriage. Consequently, the RYR crew had no LEGAL recourse to throw the pax of the flight. I expect RYR will lose the case.

[AdamC]

However, it could be argued that the passenger was endangering the safety of an aircraft by not allowing other passengers to listen to the safety demo. We've no idea how loud the passenger was talking.

So, either way, Ryanair do have a case.

[ford cortina]

Avman....
I fly a Boeing 737 not for ryan, but, I always listen to the saftey brief, even when I am travelling in civiys, there is good reason behind this, in an emergency you could forget what to do and haviing that nice reminder might just save your life.
EVERY time we take off we run through what to do in the event of a rejected take off and or an engine fire, why, because it is a mental reminder what to do in the event of. I know what to do, I can do it in my sleep, however under extreme stress we can forget, so it is good to review everytime for safety's sake.
Hope the bugger loses, he deserves to.

[Cap'n Arrr]

Obviously hes been told to be quiet and pay attention, as although the passenger has no legal requirement to listen to the brief, the airline has a legal requirement to make sure he has been given it.

1) He has obviously ignored warnings to quiet up and pay attention during the brief

2) The pilot in command (captain) has the authority to order the forcible restraint or removal of any person from his aircraft in the interest of safety and security. If he refuses to listen to the brief, he is most likely able to be judged as damaging safety.

3) Noone cares if you were talking quietly, you had been told (several times by the sound of it), not to talk and to listen to the brief.

Tosser.:D

[hellsbrink]

Let him sue, I have a feeling I know where he'll be told to go...


And he'll have the pleasure of paying costs too.


He'll behave next time, no matter who he is with, after that happens.

Wot an arrishole

[WHBM]

...out of courtesy watch the briefing despite the fact it's my 100th flight on the exact same type with the exact same company.
I wonder what your approach would be if the crew said "Hey ho, we've done the checklist 100 times before, we'd never missed anything, so let's not bother with it, off we go" ?

[Hunter58]

Sorry, the very DAY that I will actually UNDERSTAND the mumbles of the safety briefing I will take care to attentively listen.

'Ladsandgtmen plesmywehaveyoutshenfortheflingpressionofdesaftyfushersofthi serplane' and so on and so on...

As for the rest there is the safety information card which typically is instructive enough to brief myself.

The only time I ever had an what I refer to as adequate saftey briefing that was audible, clear and understandable was on board of an aircraft that has the airlines name painted in bright orange on the fuselage, and yes, I paid attention.

[Avitor]

Well done the cc....and the Captain. :ok:

[smala01]

Thank God that they now use a recorded message for the safety brief because I can’t understand a word of any other announcement they make!

Are they tested for English language on recruitment?

[Greek God]

Avman
playing Devil's Advocate, there is, to my knowledge, no LEGAL requirement for a passenger to a) watch the safety briefing or b) refrain from talking. If it were so, it should be clearly displayed in the contract of carriage. Consequently, the RYR crew had no LEGAL recourse to throw the pax of the flight. I expect RYR will lose the case.

There is however a legal requirement for the Captain to ensure that everyone has recieved an adequate safety briefing. If someone refuses to pay attention then he would perfectly within his rights to remove said person.

PS How well briefed would his friend and 8 year old son have been?

[Avman]

Hey guys, don't focus on me. I agree with all you say and I said right from the beginning that I do watch and listen to the briefing so don't lecture me about that. My point is simply that the gentleman concerned has, to my understanding, not broken any law or contract of carriage. Consequently, I'm not sure that the crew had any legal right to throw him off. That's all I'm saying.

WHBM, I wonder what your approach would be if the crew said "Hey ho, we've done the checklist 100 times before, we'd never missed anything, so let's not bother with it, off we go" ?.

Exactly! Which is why I comply, as I stated above. Did I not make that clear? Nevertheless, your example is a poor one. Using the checklist is a legal requirement and a company SOP.

[hellsbrink]

refusing to listen to a safety briefing would be a breach of the terms of the contract of carriage


7.1.2.10 you fail to observe our instructions with respect to safety or security


http://www.ryanair.com/site/conditions/docs/ryanair_carriage.pdf

Sorry

[pulse1]

There is however a legal requirement for the Captain to ensure that everyone has recieved an adequate safety briefing.

Can that really be literally true? What about a passenger who cannot understand English or any other language the cc are likely to use? How can they receive an adequate briefing?

[powerstall]

That's good for Ryanair, They should've not only thrown him out, they should've kicked him out. The nerve of the guy to even sue the airline for the purpose of his and his kid's safety? :D:D

[nebpor]

Agreed, hope his case is thrown out and he has to pay Ryanair's legal fees as well.

[Contacttower]

Good for Ryanair, but if only they were consistent on safety. In the past I've heard complaints that they don't make sure children are seated with parents in the boarding rush - which is a safety issue and that they let people sit next to exits who can't understand the briefing given to them on emergency use and/or aren't the most physically suitable people to be seated next to them either.

I was pleasantly surprised to see the reference in the T&Cs, but if I remember the last time I flew Ryanair plenty of people talked through the safety demo.

Hope this guy loses though, it does look like he disregarded the request to be quiet...which is very naughty. :=

[slip and turn]

Let me first say that I ALWAYS shut up for the briefing, no matter how bad it is, and I still get annoyed by people that seem to be trying to deliberately make themselves heard over it as if it is an unwanted inconvenience.

For an intelligent man, Dr T obviously didn't see what was coming when he crossed the line :ooh:

The other day I shut up and complied with what seemed to me to be an unnecessarily brusque instruction, largely because I am a great believer in respecting authority onboard. Once on board, I am committed to aviate and that's when I do my best to switch into crew knows best mode.

I was one of the first onboard and took the seat nearest the front steps.

I put my 10kg bag (inflated courtesy of BAA airports retail arm to about 15kg), and my 2.5kg overcoat up into the bin, and set my innocuous 1kg Pret a Manger bag down by my feet while I settled my 105kg down in the seat and prepared to dig in.

Number 1 then decided my obvious branded and bagged breakfast needed to be in the bin. With a smile I said "yep I know, but its my breakfast, don't worry I'll make sure I put the bag up well before we leave."

"I need you to put the bag up now for me" he said with no please and no hint of a smile.

I got the message, complied but took the croissant and drink out and thought "He's a bit OTT".

It was another full fifteen minutes before the doors were shut. At that point with no smile because by then I deduced he might take it the wrong way, I handed him my empty drink container which unlike his terseness, I had been unable to swallow :p

I think they employ quite a mixed bag, and of course they attract a mixed bag of clientele too with a mixed bag or three of hand luggage by the time they arrive in the cabin :}

So naturally my thoughts on this one are mixed :p

I agree however that it is more likely than not that the man fully deserved what he got :E

[hellsbrink]

Pulse, that is why you are supposed to be looking at the card whilst watching the demonstration. Sign language and pictures can say far more than words alone, and as one who has flown LHR-> Warsaw -> Minsk where on the last leg (obviously the first leg on the return) the instructions were in Polish and Russian only I can assure you of that. There is no excuse for talking to your mate under any circumstances, especially when you have a child with you as you are 100% responsible for the rugrat.

Now, as posted, what that guy did was a breach of the T&C of his ticket so he has no leg to stand on no matter what the Captain's legal obligations are.

[fyrefli]

Sorry, the very DAY that I will actually UNDERSTAND the mumbles of the safety briefing I will take care to attentively listen.

I can't remember the last time I honestly listened particularly attentively to the safety briefing 'cos I can't remember the last time I wasn't on a Fokker 70/100, 737-n00 or A319 and sitting in roughly my usual spot.

However I very studiously never say a word during it. That's a) plain bloody rude and b) rather dense, as you don't know that you haven't just scuppered your escape by talking over the one bit someone who is destined to block your exit or whatever didn't understand.

The only time I've been pulled up for not watching the safety brief, I just told the nice lady in the orange shirt that I'd listened to the Dutch version a couple of minutes previously; told her in Dutch, obviously ;)

[BEagle]

".......and set my innocuous 1kg Pret a Manger bag down by my feet while I settled my 105kg down in the seat and prepared to dig in.

Number 1 then decided my obvious branded and bagged breakfast needed to be in the bin. With a smile I said "yep I know, but its my breakfast, don't worry I'll make sure I put the bag up well before we leave."

What very poor manners. Next time eat your breakfast before you board!

[Avman]

The subject of Safety Briefings surfaces fairly regularly on PPRuNe. Last time it came up I wrote this:

This subject has been done to death over and over again. OK, I do watch the Safety Briefing as a courtesy to the crew, but in actual fact I have already briefed myself before the demo has even begun. That's because if the $hite hits the fan I want to be prepared and I have a plan (well more than one, depending on the circumstances).

Reading comments on forums from crews advocating the wisdom and courtesy of paying attention to Safety Briefings, I am remimded the fact that one of the flights I regularly travel on always includes a positioning crew (in uniform) on board. On all occasions I have observed how they have continued to chat and joke with each other as the demo is given! What a great example to the rest of the pax that is!

With regard to the second paragraph, next time it happens I shall have the offending crew members removed from the flight. Anyone care to take bets who would get ejected if I tried that? ;)

[slip and turn]

BEagle, Ryanair now do croissants but not my favorite Almond croissants - I know it was bad manners to flaunt the higher quality croissant so early in the sector, but after a quick early morning blatt up the M11 with nothing but an Earl Grey slopping inside, by the time I sat down again I was hungry :p

Actually I've seen the video of the Dear Doctor in the Cabin Crew forum now ... he seems almost normal :ooh:, normal humour, normal confidence, ... but it cost him dear to open his mouth again at the wrong moment, didn't it :}

I reckon he must have had the same number one I got, or one from the same course :E

I can't help thinking this is another example of the same kind of reverse oneupmanship stories we've had from aircrew getting disproportionately taken apart by airport security ...

I think Dr T will make a good witness but he especially won't win, will he, 'cos the great unwashed need to see a superior example hung out to dry ... and he's it :ok:

[PAXboy]

If RYR have introduced a new rule into their Ts & Cs about "listen avidly to the safety briefing - or we'll chuck you off" then they might have been justified in this action.

As far as I can tell, no such adjustment has been made and they have, therefore, opened themselves to court action.

[hellsbrink]

If RYR have introduced a new rule into their Ts & Cs about "listen avidly to the safety briefing - or we'll chuck you off" then they might have been justified in this action.

As far as I can tell, no such adjustment has been made and they have, therefore, opened themselves to court action.


:ugh::ugh::ugh:

If you are talking through a safety briefing you ARE breaking this part of the T&C

7.1.2.10 you fail to observe our instructions with respect to safety or security


and that means


7.1.2 We may also refuse to carry you or your Baggage if one or more of the following
have occurred or we reasonably believe may occur:

[Final 3 Greens]

If RYR have introduced a new rule into their Ts & Cs about "listen avidly to the safety briefing - or we'll chuck you off" then they might have been justified in this action.

As far as I can tell, no such adjustment has been made and they have, therefore, opened themselves to court action.

No.

The aircraft commander has absolute authority.

S/he delegates that to the cabin crew.

If someone decides to disobey a lawful command, then off they go, end of story.

[groundhand]

Fianl 3 Greens

Agreed.

[radeng]

>If someone decides to disobey a lawful command, then off they go, end of story.<

Question: Can it occur that the command is not actually lawful, or is non-sensical in that it is dangerous? Who judges if it is lawful? Especially at the time when the decision may have to be made under great stress?

[WHBM]

Question: Can it occur that the command is not actually lawful, or is non-sensical in that it is dangerous? Who judges if it is lawful? Especially at the time when the decision may have to be made under great stress?
Let's be clear, the "lawful" aspect of a command is to cover situations like the commander saying "kill this passenger" or "carry these drugs for me". It certainly is not about some arcane discussion of whether telling someone to pay attention to the safety briefing is lawful or not.

[PAXboy]

OK, let me put it this way:

If RYR have introduced a new rule into their Ts & Cs about "listen avidly to the safety briefing - or we'll chuck you off AND THIS TIME WE REALLY MEAN IT. LIKE, FORGET PAX BEHAVIOUR OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS, SHUT UP AND LISTEN." then they might have been justified in this action.

I think that regulars in this cabin will know that I am something of a stickler for on board regulations and there is no need to tell me that ignoring the briefing is to break the Ts & Cs. However, if one CC decides - for what ever reason - to change the practice of every carrier I have ever been on or heard of (42 years SLF man and boy) and take such action against a pax, then it may be considered 'curious'. On my domestic sector today, I read the Q400 card and checked under my seat for life jacket and gazed steadily at the CC during the 'dance'. This is not 'holier than thou' but I saw that, as usual, not too many of the pax did so.

Equally, I have no doubt that RYR will be laughing to themselves, whilst waving their standard Ts & Cs and ignoring custom and practice. For that is the real point here - what is Usual? What is Normal? What do pax Expect?

If carriers have allowed pax to ignore the briefing over the past 25+ years, you would think that might advertise more clearly that they have changed their policy. That is if policy was changed or was it a whim? Had the pax done something to upset the CC that we know not of?

I find it interesting that this is the second report in only a couple of weeks, of 'curious' and individualistic actions by CC that resulted in offloading. The other case, of the Scottish football supporters was on a carrier not yet publically identified.

[hellsbrink]

Paxboy, EVERY aircraft's CC are inconsistent. How each set of pax AND CC behave differs per plane. We know that.

Doesn't excuse that guy's behaviour, doesn't justify attacking the crew for doing the right thing. That report only has one side of the argument, so how can you guarantee it is accurate (Like the Fox report on the woman dying in-flight the other day, as an example)? How do you know he was "talking quietly? How do you know he had not been repeatedly asked to shutup, therefore delaying and disturbing the safety instructions by having them interrupted by him being told to shut his gob? How can we say for certain that nobody else was disturbed/distracted by him gibbering? We only have his word for it, after all.

I, personally, cannot wait for him to take it to court (Could disturbing a safety briefing be classed as putting an aircraft/pax in danger? After all, if people don't hear the instructions/see the demo properly because of Mr. Gobsheen wittering away then could that be classed as a hazard due to people not seeing/hearing what to do? Could liabilty of some kind then be passed onto persons under these circumstances in the rare case of something actually going wrong? That would send out a warning to others... Sorry, thinking out loud...), will be good to hear both sides...

[TSR2]

Like me, the majority of postings agree with the actions of the Ryanair crew which prompts me to ask a very pertinent question. What would you expect to be the actions of a Cabin Crew if, after the safety demo, a passenger complained to a CC member that 'I'm sorry but I could not hear the safety briefing for people talking' OR 'I'm sorry but I could not hear the safety briefing due to the poor PA system'.
Would you expect the safety demo to be repeated even if it meant a delayed departure?

[beamender99]

A search of the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/
for - ryanair doctor will give you access to the BBC video item.

[chrisr150]

By the way the BBC presented it, it sounds like what got him chucked off was talking back to the CC in a sarcastic tone after being asked for a 2nd time to be quiet. What a d1ckhead!

[MuttleyJ]

"Like me, the majority of postings agree with the actions of the Ryanair crew which prompts me to ask a very pertinent question. What would you expect to be the actions of a Cabin Crew if, after the safety demo, a passenger complained to a CC member that 'I'm sorry but I could not hear the safety briefing for people talking' OR 'I'm sorry but I could not hear the safety briefing due to the poor PA system'.
Would you expect the safety demo to be repeated even if it meant a delayed departure?"

Yes, if the PA system was so poor that many people did not hear, it would have to be done again - but usually it would've been stopped and replayed before it got to the end if the sound system was poor.

You cannot force an individual to look, listen and take note, but the airline has a legal responsibility to ensure that every passenger can hear and see the safety demo. Therefore, if someone is standing up and blocking someone else's view, they must sit down. If someone is speaking loudly and preventing another passenger from hearing, they must quieten down. If someone is visually or aurally impaired, the ccrew must take them through the information individually.

[bealine]

Whatever is going on in the world?

I used to consider people in the medical profession to be among the most courteous and polite members of society - now they seem to be turning arrogant to55ers out of medical schools!

To55er!

[Seat62K]

Slightly off-thread, I know, but whilst being impressed (in general) by Ryanair cabin crews' commitment to safety - e.g., telling passengers not to fasten seat belts during refuelling - I do find it curious that
cabin attendants announce during the demonstration that lifejackets can be found either under the seat or behind a panel above passengers' heads. I think the announcement should be tailored to the location on the particular aircraft.

[Mr Quite Happy]

OK, if its been done to death you don't want my views on it. But well done RYR.

As a rule, I always paid diligent attention but this is jaded at bit with experience. But what I do often do is watch with a glazed over view out of politeness, I would never talk through it, its rude to the CC and the pax who probably need it more than me. And in the event of an incident, to maximise my chances of MY survival I need all the pax to be doing exactly what they are supposed to. From that point of view I would give Dr T a bloody good kicking if he was busy trying to get his luggage down whilst my hair was on fire..

The best thing I ever saw was a Sabena FA giving the demo at the front of one of those turbo prop things at LCY - BRU, seat 1c (front row aise left hand side?) had some city banker (like myself, but ruder) reading his huge Times newspaper open and obviously ignoring the demo. So when it came to the "oxygen masks will fall from the ceiling above you" bit, she just dropped it into his newspaper screwing up the fold of the sheets and making him look like a ****. His offended face was a picture too.

Speaking personally, until you can recite the exact words of the safety briefing, you need to be paying attention, its all very well knowing it, but you need to know it well because when the plane hits the ocean at 100mph and the engine comes through the window on the opposite side of the plane decapitating that sweet old lady you need to know that the life vest is not under your seat but in the storage bin to its left (or whatever) and you need to know where your nearest exit is so you can get off before it sinks.

I've nearly always ensure that I run my exit plan through my head when I take a seat on a plane. But then I'm also the sort of person that sits facing backwards on trains and near the rear of the coaches and busses too. Other things like never staying in a hotel above the 6th floor, two wallets, no sparkly rolexs in Sao Paulo etc.

[Contacttower]

As far as I can tell, no such adjustment has been made and they have, therefore, opened themselves to court action.



As was recently discussed with the steel band that got chucked off a Ryanair flight, 'unreasonable' offloading can be grounds for court action. It shouldn't alter the fact though that the commander can offload someone because s/he feels like it. It *may* mean that the passenger gets compensation later on.

I think in this case though the man doesn't really have a leg to stand on.

[Big Bad D]

JAR-OPS 1.285 defines the requirements for passenger briefings. Interestingly it includes the requirement that "passengers RECEIVE a demonstration...". The use of the word RECEIVE (rather than, for example, that the cabin crew GIVES) implies that there is a regulatory expectation that the airline should take steps to ensure that there are no distractions and that passengers respect the briefing. Well done to the Ryanair crew.

[A2QFI]

I have been flying, pilot and passenger, since 1958. Ryanair is the only airline I have flown with where the crew have interrupted the briefing to ask "The man in horn rimmed glasses in row F to stop talking and listen to the briefing" The crew, of whatever airline, are doing their job and it is both courteous and sensible to listen to the briefing. I note that there is a changed stowage for lifejackets in some aircraft - no longer necessarily under the seat but in the overhead panel with the O2, air con and lights - worth knowing about!

[FWOF]

I detest this "These-rules-don't-apply-to-me" mentality. Two recent experiences really peeved me. As a somewhat nervous but getting much better pax I was miffed enormously by the two 'business gentlemen' in the row behind me last Friday when flying Exeter to Manchester who continued to talk LOUDLY throughout the entire brief ... even though I, and several other pax, turned and gave them THAT look. Likewise, when flying from Luton to Aberdeen two weeks ago, a small party of beautifully be-costumed African gentlemen were last to board but then got most upset when it turned out that a lady in their party had got split from them and one of them spent a good five minutes heatedly discussing why the rest of the pax should wait and why weren't the CC out there looking for her. Furthermore, during the brief, one of the same gentlemen was on his PHONE talking most loudly ... I was amazed that the CC didn't pull him up for that one.

I guess you'll always get some smug arris who thinks he know's it all and that he's been on enough flights to all but fly the plane. Just hope you're not sat next to him in an exit row if you ever need to get past him.

I hope RyanAir spank this obnoxious man on the wrists.