DHL 727 pilots refuse to fly aircraft

[factsman]

Apparently some crewmembers the other day refused to fly HZ-SNE because the GPS system on the aircraft was deferred. Although the aircraft is legal to fly, the company ops says the aircraft has to have a proper functioning GPS in order to operate in Iraq. This has been a problem with this aircraft every since DHL took delivery of the plane. Just last week a crew flying this plane strayed 10 miles into Iran because of the GPS. and Another crew was reported 25 miles off course returning from Kuwait. However maintenance refuses to do anything about it because there are still some crew members willing to fly the plane in order to keep the freight moving and DHL management happy:=

[Dream Land]

Maybe some of the crews use their own portable GPS units, have seen several crews doing this at my airline.

[darrylj]

i wouldn't use my own GPS. DHL management should sort their act out if they want their freight moved!.

:)

[vapilot2004]

Just last week a crew flying this plane strayed 10 miles into Iran because of the GPS.

I'm not the most succinct wordsmith in the library but I hope this was meant to say that the NAV error was due to the crew's lack of a working GPS.

A failing INS**, without regularly scheduled cross-checks could lead one astray in an insidious manner, but not a GPS. The box is designed to flag it's own outputs upon failure.



**Come to think of it, a serviceable INS could do this too. :p

[boofhead]

Get used to this, as the experience level continues to fall and pilots lose the ability to do things manually.
Now if the coffee ran out, or the sandwiches were stale, that would be a real emergency!

[daddy flm]

can you not fly without gps ?

[Huck]

Class II airspace, mayhap?

[two green one prayer]

Would someone please explain why any pilot should routinely disobey the the company SOPs? Irrespective of what a local manager says the SOP has presumably been carefully considered by senior management and says what it does for good reasons. How would the crew be placed if the Iranians quite properly forced an intruding aircraft to land in Iran? Anyone here fancy eating cous cous while trying to explain what a MEL is?

[powerstall]

in the company i fly for.... we have the right to accept or not to accept the aircraft after maintenance release, once you accept the aircraft in its current status (MEL's..etc.) once it is signed by the Captain he has responsibility over the aircraft.....

others may have different operational procedures regarding this matter...

just my two cents...:ok:

[Hold West]

You can't fly in Iraq without GPS. There are essentially no ground-based NAVAIDS. Before you whine about the crew that can't do anything manually, read the Iraq AIP:

3.3.1.1 A diagram of the ATS routes within the Baghdad FIR is at ENR 3.3-6. All ATS routes in the Baghdad FIR are area navigation routes (RNAV) designated for aircraft approved for Required Navigation Performance 5 (RNP5) operations. Aircraft must be capable of maintaining RNP5 without reliance on ground based navigation aid updates in the Baghdad FIR.

I wouldn't go there without effective nav gear....

[nigegilb]

Boofhead-"The airplanes I am responsible for range from Beavers through Cessna172,182,185,206, all single engine types, and a couple of Cessna twins, PA31 and a Kingair. They all operate on gravel at times, some on skis in the winter."

I am sure boofhead would still be up for it, bet he'd even do it flying manually as well.

[bill_s]

So, what will a working GPS cost, and what will it cost to ransom an aircraft, cargo and crew out of Iran? Or Syria?

[factsman]

Although upper DHL management has tried to stop the Bahrain Tribune from reporting the going on's at DHL, the paper will be printing a detailed article about the operations and problems with the airline.. Don't get me wrong for one minute, the pilots there are as professional as you would find at any airline. It's the management and equipment with all their cover ups which need to be exposed.. The next few days are going to be very interesting.:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[factsman]

Although upper DHL management has tried to stop the Bahrain Tribune from reporting the going on's at DHL, the paper will be printing a detailed article about the operations and problems with the airline.. Don't get me wrong for one minute, the pilots there are as professional as you would find at any airline. It's the management and equipment with all their cover up's which need to be exposed.. The next few days are going to be very interesting.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I don't think using your own GPS is legal
No hand held unit is IFR capable and not usable for Class II navigation

IFR capable GPS requires an STC

The using of non-approved GPS will not be allowed by any POI-or equivalent official--in the OpsSpecs.

Therefore, I think it's incumbent on the PIC to follow the guidance of the AIP regarding navigation equipment required in said FIR---and adhere to the COMPANY'S OWN APPROVED OpsSpecs:=

:(

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't think using your own GPS is legal
No hand held unit is IFR capable and not usable for Class II navigation

Although the Royal Navy demonstrably used a commercial handheld GPS that was probably so that they could get a good photograph.

MOD advise that commercial hand held GPS do not have the safeguards necessary to counter GPS jamming or spoofing.

You need a proper intergrated Sat Nav system where cross checking is performed by the system.

[Pugilistic Animus]

--- and RAIM ---Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring---capacility

[Flash_11]

Just out of interest why cant they fly map to ground. In the desert of Western Australia there are no nav aids and its all MK1 Mod 1 eyeball

[Pontius Navigator]

At night? ..

[Flash_11]

Day time only, I guess it would be interesting if you tried it at night, if you had you cabin lights off your map would match the ground "black"

And notwithstanding you cant go against the company SOP's.

[Pontius Navigator]

Flash, I am not current on the map-ground there but as I recall there can be significant haze and dust. There were no significant high rise like Ayre's Rock.

I concede that the river is a pretty distinctive boundary marker but only if the Iranians agree. Anyway it is usual to have a 10 mile separation zone so you should not expect to see the river :)

[Dockjock]

VFR map reading at FL350? In class B airspace? at night? or IMC? ...in Iraq?

The packages don't have to get there THAT badly, do they? Holy crap just fix the damn GPS already!

[ericferret]

Maintenance refuses to do anything about it!!!!!!!!!!

Highly unlikely.

This is an MEL conflict and has nothing to do with maintenance.

The MEL is in conflict with the companies operating procedures.

It is up to the operations department to resolve the issue and ammend the MEL.

Operations owns the MEL not maintenance.

If crews fly in breach of the companies operating procedures that is nothing to do with maintenance.

It appears to me that some of the crews are trying to shift the responsibilty for not flying the aircraft by getting the engineers to ground the aircraft for them.

Balls lack off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[doubleu-anker]

Not only DHL in the Middle East that raises my eyebrows.

I was at a B727 approved maintenance outfit in the UK, lets say 10years ago plus. There was a US registered B727 on hire/transfer to DHL based in BRU I had a look inside. Although it appeared to have all the legal radio equipment for the period,(including coffee grinder ADF's) I never saw a GPS receiver on board. My first thought was "how shortsighted!" as any GPS installation on the a/c would have paid for itself in fuel savings, in a very short period of time indeed by more accurate direct routing's etc., apart from making the pilots feel a lot happier.

Left me thinking, if this is how the DHL management "think", what else are they skimming on?

[Huck]

You'd flip in Memphis- we've got ~110 B727's blasting off every night with nothing but two VOR heads and alot of guts....

(Still a few DC-10-10's as well!)

[DownIn3Green]

:ugh:ericferret...What???

The MEL is approved by the licensing authority (i.e.-HZ, N, S9, G, etc..)

Years ago I was an FE on a 727 heading out of MIA for South America...One generator was inop, which was legal within our MEL...

I informed Maint that the Capt would most likely refuse the a/c, so they should probably try to find a generator...

Maint said it was legal, Capt says great, I'll fly it to ORD or LAX, but not over the Andes at night w/ only 2 generators...

A lesson I learned and live by...Just because te MEL says "it's" legal, dosen't mean "it's" safe...

Well done to the DHL Capt...

[Hurkemmer]

http://www.swiftair.es/img/galeria_aviones/Boeing727/img3.jpg

One of these?

[Yankee Whisky]

Anyone still remember celestial navigation or dead reckoning? Know your stars and where they should be positioned relative to the track you're flying? Know your winds and airspeed and calculate (compensated) compass heading? Use your watch? This is the stuff that keeps you in proper stand-by mode and may prevent you from falling asleep on long (boring?) flights!

Should a pilot's brain not be prepared at all times to take over from a malfunctioning instrument and/or refuse a T/O when the instrument is vital
to exact position information, particularily where fanatic idiots take potshots at your aircraft?

And don't give me this "old fart" argument, that's been used too often.

[Orographic]

I am honestly surprised that there are people, on a forum that purport to be professional pilots, that react in any other way, than "good on them" to that crews decision not to take of with a minimum equipment breach.

so the question that seems most pertinent, is how and why has this been normalized?

[OutOfRunWay]

AFAIK DHL is a part of Deutsche Post now, and their Management is not real popular in Germany at this time, the reason being: they were involved in dodgy business practices, generally underpaying employees, and scrounging money where they could.

Why should they take care of their aircraft or crews, if that interferes with the earnings?

[MD11Engineer]

AFAIK DHL is a part of Deutsche Post now, and their Management is not real popular in Germany at this time, the reason being: they were involved in dodgy business practices, generally underpaying employees, and scrounging money where they could.

...as well as having a CEO getting caught cheating on taxes big time (not declaring the interest he earned on money secretly transfered to a numbers account in Liechenstein). This now ex-CEO got caught, together with hundreds others, after a former Liechtenstein bank employee sold a CD with hundreds of account files to German intelligence, who gave it to the tax office.
The German tax office also gave copies of this disk to other European countries, e.g. the UK and Ireland, so that they can prosecute their own tax evaders.