My experience with Ryanair

[flycheaper]

Hello,

It's make nearly one year that i have join Ryanair and i always promised myself to wright some words here when i would have made my own idea of this company, i have some time now so here is my thinking....
Before joining i have for sure read all the threads on pprune from top to bottom and from bottom to top, no need to say that with all the "mauvaises langues" here i was totally afraid and wondering myself if i was not doing a mistake... For the records i joined them with a 737 TR and some hours on the machine so i paid nothing nor for a T/R or for the OCC course.

The OCC course and the Line Training was at a really great standard of professionalism and security. Your progress is followed day by day by a very accurate computerized system and by reports wrote by the LT captain after each flight. For sure it's tough to reach the desired standard but never i felt under negative pressure or rushed to achieve it, (by example you have to achieve the turn around in 25 minutes but if you are not completely ready then no big deal it will be 30,35 minutes but at least you will have learn how to do better the next time)(btw from my pilot point of view a turn around of 25 minutes is totally possible without rush and with respect of security).
The staff in East Midland Training was really helpful and tried to do there best to make your training more easy.

Now concerning my everyday life, i enjoy the wonderful spanish sun with a comfortable 5 days on, 4 days off roster and every night i am in my bed, I can assure you that for your couple and family life it's really helpful... Speaking about quality of life, i have never been so healthy than since i am with FR, no wonder with the fantastic food that my wife do me for each of my flight and the water... one bottle and "Britta" do the rest.

Concerning the salary, there also i am totally happy, the first six month i was bringing home an average of 2500€/net, since then I am on an average of 3500€/net and it's seem that in the future with the new deal it will climb to an average of 4000€/net. I have personally taken a loss of license insurance/pension for +-300€ a month which assure me of a rent of 5000€/month in case of problems and i have the social insurance in the country where my base is. Not so bad i find for a new FO.

The work by itself is really enjoying me with a great bunch of people around, an amazing network of destinations giving me a lot of experience and a brand new fleet with a really good maintenance which give me the opportunity to achieve my job with security and professionalism.

if i have to give some negatives points, i would say that it's tricky to find the good person to who to speak when you have a question or a problem but with the time you do your own list of contact numbers. An other one which annoy me the most is the difficulty to get your planning or to connect to the intranet system from the friday afternoon to the monday morning.

So to conclude i would say that in my case Ryanair is a really positive experience for sure you don't have a red carpet to go to the aircraft and nobody give a f*** that you are a pilot, you are there to do a job from A to B to A and then you go home. Just to be clear i am based in continental Europe with a Ryanair contract, so my experience most probably is not similar as the experience of pilots based in England, Ireland or contractor.

Hope it will help and moderate some writers full of anger and blackness.

Have a nice landing or an happy take off...

[Clandestino]

Posting on PPRuNe is certainly cheaper than advertizing. :E

[flycheaper]

:8 Hello Clandestino, is that so bizare that there is some pilots happy to be with Ryanair?:rolleyes:

[RYR-738-JOCKEY]

I wonder if we're the only company doing this. I really like the part where having to bring his own food makes him healthier. :D

[easymoney]

Funny post...............

Happiness is relative in this case. You also need to take into account that your happiness levels will decrease every year with inflation and at the whim of the company.

If you are a genuine pilot, reckon you purchased your flying exp from one of those 300-500 pay per fly programs.

[Visual Calls]

This guy sounds like HR person....

Anyway, if he is genuine, which is doubtful, he displays the usual characteristics of the run-of-the-mill head-in-the-sand ryanair pilot. The main one being the utter inability to see the big picture. Yes, you're happy now, but as someone pointed out, that happiness, along with your salary, is steadily decreasing even as we speak. Every day of inflation lowers your salary, regardless of how much it actually is, it will always be less than a comparable pilot earned yesterday.
Having not had the benefit of flying elsewhere, you also think that what is normal in ryanair is normal elsewhere.
For example, the money you quote is low pay (and decreasing).
And tricky is it to get hold of people? What happens if you have a real problem, like damaging an aircraft? You won't be getting hold of anyone then, except a lawyer. Where's the backup and the support? Experience will show you that you need that.

[Langball]

What a cynical bunch you lot are. Here is a 'newbie' and he's jus delighted with his new job. And all you want to do is 'rain on his parade'.

It's like if you married a 21 year old super model. The best 5ex will be the first time, plus her looks aren't going to get much better. So you could say it's all downhill from there.

And NO, I'm not comparing Ryanair with a 21 year old supermodel. Thst's just life, each to his or her own.

[ONTPax]

Well, let me just say this: Regardless of all the positive and negative comments being thrown about here in reference to RyanAir, I think it is safe to assume that we're all in agreement that they put out a FANTASTIC calendar! :ok:

ONTPax

[BitMoreRightRudder]

So to sum up RYR ain't that bad if you live in Spain and the wife cooks your tea. I think he has a point.

[flycheaper]

That's amazing how negative people are on this forum, if you appreciate your job then directly you are seen as somebody from the management.
Just for info, I have been waiting since august 2001 to have my first real pilot job, I have done a lot of "little" ****ty job, more than one time I have been in the **** to finish the month. Hopefully in 2006 a new turkish company called me and gave me a totally free type rating on the 737 and the line training, i was still flying for them when a flight school went to propose them a bunch of newbies pilots ready to pay to do the line training... For sure they accepted and they said me goodbye.
Where have you seen that 3500€-4000€ is low salary for a one year FO, if you take TNT or Brussels Airline which where my other alternatives, this amount is the brutto(you divided by 2 to have the netto).
Any way me I am happy and that the most important.

[captjns]

First I would like to say that was a nice post by "Flycheaper". Enjoy your time at RYR. When its time to move on... I share those positive experiences with your new crewmembers.


Now for the basic questions… can anyone justify the negatives for the following?

Being home every night in your own bed to kiss your kids good night or have breakfast with them in the morning?

Bringing your own food which you have control over the preparation?

Flying new aircraft that don’t break?

Steady Rosters?

Its one thing to complain about bad treatment, but it’s another thing to stand up and take action for such treatment.

So to the complainers... if you don't like the treatment or where you are... well you all can finish the line.

For those who like it at RYR... enjoy your time with the airline until you feel that it's time to move on only because there may be a new adventure awaiting you.

[ICING AOA]

Being home every night in your own bed to kiss your kids good night or have breakfast with them in the morning?


At 2 o'clock in the morning when you come back from lates or when you are about to start earlies :bored:

[flycheaper]

Hello Flying-Clara

a) Usually 2 to 4 sectors/day
b) Between 5 and 10 hrs/day
c)Early shift : Check-in between 5AM to 10AM Check-out 12PM to 16PM
Late shift : Check-in between 12AM to 17AM Check-out 19PM to 1AM
d)Medical: 120€/Y
Uniform: I bought it in the beginning, no recurrent cost
Parking: 13€/M
Sim: It's free and on my 5 days on, also they pay a renting car and hotel room in the Hilton or the Thistle.
e)Basic salary : 18.000€ Gross
Flight pay : 30.000€ Netto
f) I fly an average of 80 hrs/month
Since the beginning of the year I am flying an average of 35 hrs/month because I took Annual leave but you earn +-76€ by A/L taken so at the end of the month I don't see really the difference.

Hope it help,
:p

[captjns]

The point is that you are home and when you kid cries out for the parents well you can figure the rest out for yourself.

If you are looking for that dream job in aviation, where you don’t report for duty before 10:00 and go off duty by 15:00, then you aren’t going to find it until you become the owner, and Director of Operations. RYR may not be the perfect place to be, however, there are worse places to fly while living out of a suit case and doing the bag drag through the terminal every day and being paid less.

[ICING AOA]

so you are suggesting ppruners to make some kids in order to enjoy ryanair ? :}

[potkettleblack]

Often you don't know how good or bad a place is until you have left. Its a bit like our old flying schools. Most of us would say we had the best training, instructors etc. Reality is we don't know as we didn't do the CPL or IR twice or more times to find out what it is like somewhere else.

I know that my airline has its faults. But on the plus side I sure am happy with my defined benefit pension, a published payscale going forward for the next 20 or so years, sector pay, 1 seniority list, free crew meals, free water, free tea and coffee, a paper to read on the turnaround, good standard of hotels for overnights, carparking, and a uniform provided.

Now I have never flown for FR nor would I wish to thanks. Incidentally from mates flying for them the problems seem to arise later down the line when you have been in a few years. Erosion of terms and conditions, constant moving of goal posts, command promotion issues etc. Unfortunately a year is nothing in this business. Good luck and enjoy your flying.

[captjns]

RYR is an entry level carrier for low time pilots. I don’t know of any other carrier where one can join a company with 240 hours and get his or her command within 3 to four years of joining. After accumulating 1,000 hours of command, then they can choose to remain or move on. I would be curious to know how many entry level crewmembers move on after 4 to 5 years at RYR?

T & Cs have eroded, but not only at RYR. One can whine about the erosion of such terms conditions on this thread, but PPRUNE isn’t going to restore or lobby on behalf of RYR pilots to have those benefits reinstated.

[captjns]

ICING AOA, you need to see the bigger picture.

[Georgey]

RYR is an entry level carrier for low time pilots. I don’t know of any other carrier where one can join a company with 240 hours and get his or her command within 3 to four years of joining. After accumulating 1,000 hours of command, then they can choose to remain or move on. I would be curious to know how many entry level crewmembers move on after 4 to 5 years at RYR?

T & Cs have eroded, but not only at RYR. One can whine about the erosion of such terms conditions on this thread, but PPRUNE isn’t going to restore or lobby on behalf of RYR pilots to have those benefits reinstated.

Thats the problem. You think you are going to move on to a better place but dont realise that you have eroded the terms at that better place.
The other airlines are using Ryanair as a bench mark for terms and conditions.

Fools.

[King Halibut]

$100 million dollars out of Nigeria. Really? Wow, where can I get my hands on the info?
Then I can start my own airline and kiss kids goodnight :}

[Right Way Up]

Langball,
Aviation definition of cynic - a realist who has spent too long in this game to have the wool pulled over their eyes! ;)

[BitMoreRightRudder]

while I'm there I thought I'd send off my CV to Ryanair as that too seems like an opportunity too good to pass up, anyone else coming?

I would but I don't have any kids to put to bed and I'm not married, so would have to make my own sandwiches. On that basis I don't think I'd like it much.

[UP and Down Operator]

Guys and Girls :=

I don't work for RYR (and never will), but I know a lot of jockeys that do and their oppinions are very varied and colourfull, BUT Ladies and Gents, SOME people actually enjoy their work with them, so why not accept that people are happy with different things in life without trying to shoot them down all the time... let them enjoy their life :*:=

And for all the rest of the RYR chaps, I hope you will get better conditions soon or join something better with a future :}:}

"and no more than 2 tailstrikes a day please :E"

[silverhawk]

Sure that's fine for the flightdeck crew if all goes well.

Nowhere near enough time for the CC to off-load all the pax, PROPER security checks and get the next lot of pax on. What are the men from the ministry playing at?

[Mercenary Pilot]

Concerning the salary, there also i am totally happy, the first six month i was bringing home an average of 2500€/net,

That's a LOT more than my friends at FR earned even after paying for their TR.

[wince]

from my pilot point of view a turn around of 25 minutes is totally possible without rush and with respect of security

Yeah, it's possible when you lie about block times, or when you're only carrying 30 pax each way. good luck trying to turnaround in 25 min. with full loads out of Stansted.

in the future with the new deal it will climb to an average of 4000€/net

in future my fellow RYR lovers, with the new deal, you will be locked in a 4 year PAYCUT. It takes a 6 year old with a calculator to work out this scam,

Flying Clara:

a) From 2 to 4
b) from 4 to almost 12 on the long days
c) depends, you might have to get up at 3 or 4 in the morning for the early shifts. Officially report time is 45 min before departure, but this is not enough time to get ready so most guys show up at least 1 hour before, unofficially extending duty times.
d) you don't pay for OPCs (yet). for the uniform, medical etc, depends where you pass your medical etc..
e) it varies from base to base, and also on the mood of the person hiring you. If they can screw you to get you on a lower payscale, they will.

[stansdead]

Is this the first stage of the Accelerated Command Course? Blow smoke up your Employer's arse?

Get real, it's a dive. And it's trying to take us (rest of the industry) with it.

[SimpleLife]

The attempts at poor grammar are nothing short of laughable.

How low can a recruiter sink?

[flyingfunder]

As someone who kept an FR pilots family because of the pittance he was paid on line training and the reduced hours for working for a contractor( NO HOURS NO PAY) who they were instructed to work for on a contract you wouldnt believe. I hope they are struggling for pilots. Can't the moderators see through this scam

[Flaps5speed180]

Be in no doubt that there are some seriously deluded people flying for this airline. Which, unfortunately, makes me think that this guys post could be genuine.

If, for example, you used to fly for an airline in a part of the world where pay is not good and you feel unsafe to walk the streets at night, then living in Bishop's Stortford and working for FR won't seem very bad at all. In fact you might even say it was 'great'.

There are a lot of people like this in Ryanair. Flew with many guys recently who think FR is the best thing since sliced bread.:ugh:

In terms of changing things in FR I am now of the opinion that union recognition is about as realistic as me stepping foot on the moon. The turn over of pilots is too high to get any kind of cohesion to form a strong union presence. Add to that the fact that most guys joining FR are either from overseas and are happy with FR's T&C's or they are fresh out of flying school and don't want to put their necks on the line, and you can see it just isn't going to happen.:{

[SID PLATE]

Hmmmm.... is the original post for real? I'm not sure, but I'd like to know if they sell "Britta" water filters in Spain?
The rest of the post sounds like Borat.
"Join Ryanair ... is NAAAICE...."

[ZeBedie]

I was about half way through the first posting on this thread when I thought "this is someone who's first language is English, taking the pee".

And if I'm wrong, don't you need a minimum standard of English to work for Ryanair?

[merlinxx]

Hey Flycheaper y'all can't even get your Spanglish correct, maybe you're one of those left over from the Armada from Co. Claire?

[thebeast]

some reasonable points, although how do u find

the annual leave system?
changing standbyes to 12 hours without any notice?
90% salary for six months on command....only time till its 80, 70, 60....

but again as u say its not all bad

[rubik101]

I can see why the spelling in the original post is correct, there being a spell checker herein, but the curious grammar beats me.
Using future/present/past conditional phrases like; 'I would have', 'I was bringing', 'I have never been' etc. makes me think this writer has a good grasp of English grammar.
Then we have the construction; 'I was not doing a mistake', 'the work is really enjoying me' and others which would indicate that the bad grammar is 'made up'.
The more complicated constructions are correct, while the simple constructions are so very badly flawed as to be almost a parody of the language.
The spelling of wright for 'write' is followed soon after by the correctly spelled, 'wrote'. while the use of capitals is arbitrary and seemingly random. Brita, with one T by the way, merits a capital while Spanish does not.
All in all, a pretty poor effort from RYR recruitment team.
Must try harder.
LPC/OPC rating......poor.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

It all makes you smile.

A friend of mine has just applied through Brookfield. Apparently the recruitment 'consultant' confirmed Ryanair were taking on experienced first officers with a B737NG type rating. The 'consultant' promised an assessment day and confirmed an e-mail would be sent setting out the timescale together with attachments with FAQ and the like - my friend just had to wait 30 minutes whilst it was all set up.

E-mail arrived with possible dates for assessment, but with the proviso it would all be subject to Brookfield reviewing his CV - and no attachments.

CV sent off and a confirmatory e-mail to say it had been received and that Brookfield would be in touch.

Since then nothing.

The only aspect of the CV which might have been an issue is his age - over 50 - the fact that he hasn't flown a B737 for over a year was mentioned in the original telephone call, so that can't be it.

Seems Ryanair have an unwritten ageism policy.

Anyone else come across this 'fact'?!

SITW :)

[flycheaper]

Hi Clara,

I am french speaker, i am from Belgium. I speak 4 languages French, Dutch, English and German so that's true maybe my writing is a bit confuse.
Anyway believe what you want i don't care, i am just wanting to give my view of Ryanair, perhaps it will help some clever persons to understand that FR is not as bad as some people pretend.
Btw the persons who analyse so well my english how many languages do they speak... Probably like a lot of British, only one, that's why i am still proud of my english.

Rgds,

[silverhawk]

Which just reinforces the feeling that this is a FR recruitment ploy.



Only wannabees are convinced by your cr@p

Ryanair have raped this industry and still manage to hoodwink the public and the fools who prostrate themselves to take up employment with them.

[wince]

And if I'm wrong, don't you need a minimum standard of English to work for Ryanair?

hahaha....that's a good one. most of the new cabin crew and some pilots can't speak conversational english

[preduk]

Salut flycheaper,

Comment êtes-vous ?

Quel est votre bénéficier préféré de Ryanair? Combien de temps avez-vous vécu en Espagne?

[flycheaper]

Bon Clara, je vais le faire ici ce sera plus simple, oui effectivement je suis basé en Espagne, je te rappel que Ryanair ne me demande pas de parler la langue du pays pour y ètre basé. Si je n'ai pas le droit de dire haut et fort que je suis content dans ma nouvelle compagnie et que la situation ici est bien meilleur que ce à quoi je m'attendais et bien dans ce cas je préfère me taire et laisser croire à tous ces fantasmeurs ce qu'il veulent...Bientot on me prendra pour MOL:=

Voor mijn vrienden van Vlanderen en Nederland, Ik ben uit belgie,zeker ik ben niet perfect tweetalig maar ik denk dat is normaal voor een klein waals;-)

Mein Frau ist von Köln, Alaaf Köln.

That's crazy what's happen here, there is so much anger against Ryanair that you can't just say that you like your company:oh:. For sure it's my first company, for sure i believe that there is better companies around the world, for sure i believe that in Dublin and Stansted the situation is not so good( said in my first post) but my point was just to say that in my case i am happy with what i have, Ryanair is a positive experience for me and i believe for some others persons too.

There is more than 1500 pilots flying for FR, can't you believe that some of us are happy???:rolleyes:

[flycheaper]

Btw ASFKAP,

I don't know who you are and i don't care. I am pretty sure that in your life you had already some problems due to the fact that you give quick judgement without being 100% sure of what you say.
I am a simple pilot, i have nothing to do with the management or whatever of RYR.
And please forward this thread to check if you want, i have nothing to hide. I don't know the person to who you want to forward it but i believe that he would check who i am and be able to assure you that i am who i say i am.

have a good evening.

[EjetSetter]

So what mde you choose RYR over Brussles?

[preduk]

Translation:

Good Clara, I will do it here this will be simpler, yes effectively I am based in Spain, If you remember that Ryanair does not want me to speak the country language for their base.

If I don't have the right to say high and strong that I'm happy with my new company and the position here is much better than what I expected, well in this case I prefer to be quiet to myself and leave all these fantasizes (I think the word is)

For my friends of Vlanderen and the Netherlands, I am not from Belgium, I am perfectly bilingual but think this is normal for a small...

My wife is from Cologne

[flyingoli]

EjetSetter,

Because Brussels Airlines or Tnt offered me an interview when i was already flying for FR, but also because the tax level in Belgium is too high ( must be now around 45/50%), following my calculation my net salary with Fr would be my Gross salary in Belgium.

Have a good evening,

[SOTV]

Voor mijn vrienden van Vlanderen en Nederland, Ik ben uit belgie,zeker ik ben niet perfect tweetalig maar ik denk dat is normaal voor een klein waals

Well, I think a small Walloon should understand this:

Votre mere etait un hamster, et votre pere sentait des baies de sureau.

:E

[flyingoli]

Well sorry preduk,
I will do it, it will be more understandable than with an online translator :

Well Clara, I will do it here it would be easier, that's true i am based in spain, but i remind you that with FR i don't have to speak the language of the country to be based there. If i don't have the right to say loudly that i am happy in my new company and that the situation here is well better than the one i was expecting, then in this case i prefer to shut up and let believe the "story makers" what they want...Soon i will be taken for MOL

For my friend of Flanders and Netherland, I am coming from Belgium, for sure i am not perfectly bilingual but i think it's normal for a little "wallon"(french speaker of belgium)

And for sure my wife is German, Alaaf Köln is an expression that you shout in the during the street Carnaval.

rgrds and good evening,

[flyingoli]

Well SOTV,

I don't see really the meaning of this sentence but my mother is well a human like you and me and not a little animal...and let's say that my father smell the "surreau" when he do a walk in the wood????LOL

[preduk]

Ha... Thanks flycheaper... My Friend translated the questions for me but then he disappeared before I got your response so had to use a translator :S

[flyingoli]

Well ASFKAP,

As I told you before, i have nothing to hide so as it makes long time that i haven't been here i didn't remember my password so i did a new account. I am now using mainly firefox and this evening I came back on Internet explorer where I discover with pleasure that my password was stored....
At least you see that i am not new here and that i have more the profile of a pilot than an HR manager isn't it?

[beachbumflyer]

I thik I´d better stay on the beach.

[F4F]

beachbumflyer I thik I´d better stay on the beach hope it's gonna be for a long long time... and take as many PPRune strollers along as you can, thanks and good bye :}

[UK Viking]

Hi flycheaper

Just want to say that I totally agree with you, I started on the Ryanair OCC course summer 2007, and I am still very satisfied. I do think a lot of you guys are a little to angry and maybe too eager to make Ryanair that bad, we do all have different opinions to what makes us happy, I am at Ryanair. For your information, I am Danish, so please accept my spelling !!

Rgds UK Viking

[Right Way Up]

Yet another 1 post wonder! :ugh:

[UK Viking]

Beacause enough is enough, have been a passiv observer for years and I dont like your attitude.
I do believe I was posting in a polite way and do request a serious and mature discussion instead of all that crap.

UK Viking

[Right Way Up]

UK Viking,
Not really my issue if you like my attitude or not.
Excuse my cynicism......
passiv observer for years but registers today and posts on a blatant advertising thread. Hmmmm

[CIPO]

It is true that some peeps are happy in FR, those who are flying shiney new 800's rather than instructing on a 152 or working in a bar.
FR is now a flight school, 200hrs in the right seat and less than 3000hrs in the left(i mean jet time!). If you have experience in this company in either seat you will get shat upon. Why give experienced FO's flying when you can get it cheaper with a newbe?
The company works on the basis of fear & intimidation, never query anything. They cannot deal with issues in a professional manner, it always turns out to be political........

Get in then get out! Don't be one of the 4 bar glasses gang, you now the ones who wanna be skippers from the day they put 2 stripes on & then a training skipper within 6 months of that:D
The experience on the flight deck has decreased alarmingly over the last 5 years............:uhoh:

[vikingdk]

I must say this Ryanair bashing has gone too far in here. I am with Ryanair as well and all you guys going on and on how bad it is...fact is, most of the guys i meet on the line a pretty happy to be there. What is laughable is all these conspiricy theories going on in here, every time a poster is positive about RYR, its MOL and his henchmen....guys, get real, get a job:mad:

[PaxmanwithInfo]

Never a truer word said. :D

[Right Way Up]

VikingDK,
There is an old saying "live by the sword, die by the sword"
Ryanair corporate strategy is to steam roller and slag off anyone in their way. Thats why your company gets it back in spades. If you trawl back through the archives no other companies get as much flak, even those who offer a similar product. Why is that? The opening post may well be genuine, but it comes across exactly as a recruiting hook. Something which has been proved previously by the engineering manager. The only conspiracy theory comes from within Ryanair from those who believe that the company is unfairly treated. I can imagine when MOL finally is got rid of, that he will be in Kenneth Williams pose squealing "infamy, infamy....." ;)

[Visual Calls]

How often does it have to be said that the "i'm only here for a few hours" brigade are f**king it up for everyone else? Look at the big picture. Every low-cost hour you gain is undermining the airlines with the better T&C's. It's like musical chairs. Eventually the music will stop when you've managed to undermine everyone else and at that point, if you're still in ryanair, you're goosed and if you've left already to gain a temporary advantage, you're now goosed anyway. And you were never there to begin with, you can look with contempt on the fly-for-cheaper pilots who have ruined your life.

vikingdk Maybe most of your colleagues are happy, but I suspect they all have low experience and haven't worked out yet how they're screwing themselves and everyone else. Once the above scenario happens, they'll know all about it.

You can't get away from the fact that if you accept poor conditions it screws everyone else. The argument that it's only "entry-level" and "all professions start out bad" is a fallacy. Here's why:
A junior doctor, accountant, lawyer etc gets paid less cos they do the monkey work with little responsibility. As they move up the ladder, they can command a premium for their added experience and ability. And if they're particularly able, they can command a bigger premium again.
However, a pilot of a given can not and does not command a premium for being "better" or more experienced than another. If that were the case, passengers would gladly pay more to fly with EI, BA, KLM, Easy or whoever. However, people choose ryanair assuming all pilots are equal. Yes, we all know ryanair pilots are generally much less experienced than anywhere else, but other airlines have to compete with ryanair on price, not on the quality of the cockpit crew.
Experience is an intangible quality that can not be accurately measured. That's why ryanair, who only care to tick the boxes, will always be able to undercut an airline who cares about how able the pilots actually are.

If you don't stand and fight at ryanair, the sh1t will follow you wherever you go and you will not be thanked for it by the rest of us.

[captjns]

I don't know what the fuss is all about. Some of these posts are more winded than the speeches I've heard at speakers corner by the Marble Arch...

Plain and simple... those who are happy stay... and those who are not leave.

I know a number of expats from the western hemisphere over at RYR and love the QOL and the pay that goes with it.

You either accept the company for what it is... and if dissatisfied... move on.

Life's not that complicated.

[captplaystation]

You cannot begin to compare life in RYR at a small base ( well GRO has 9 A/C and more to come, so not so small. . . . if that is where by my Belgian colleague is based) with the same job in STN ( The aviation equivalent of Hell on Earth)
It has to be said, that there are so many ways RYR could be improved, most involving little or no capital expenditure on the company's part, but finally, sleeping in your own bed at night, flying new (all the oldest i.e. 9yr max one's are leaving @10A/C per year) well maintained 737's isn't so bad, particularly if you can be based somewhere with a bit of sunshine.
Whilst some of our S.O.P's are a bit anally retentive, at least you have a fair idea what hymn sheet the other guy is singing from, regardless of his nationality/experience.
If they could only sort out man management, and force themselves to stop behaving towards their staff/customers/et all like so many back street thugs/ horse traders it would be the best job in Europe.
Well we can dream eh ?

[Kempus]

what makes me laugh is that all the guys in the industry who have the experience and the pull to do something in the industry all just sit back and moan that how all the new guys are ruining it for everyone?
get off your backside and help us out!

we are merely trying to make a career after the boom time when the major's sponsored about 10 cadets a month, concorde was flying and petrol was 42p a litre! stand up for your peers, aviation is one big family! its amazing how someone knows someone you know who knos someone who knows them! if you can't stand up for us at least show a little repect for putting everything on the line to try and make it!

I pay my union fees to funnily enough help you guys as airlines struggle to make a profit!
its not 1985 and the world has changed dramatically! things will NEVER be the same again!
its all about survival of the fitest and well ryanair is one of thee fitest!

If you don't agree well that's your opinion which your entitled too but for god's sake stop blaming the new guys and help out!

As I said enjoy my union money, I pay it for the better of the industry not just myself, so those in the know give a hand!

kempus

ps. can someone explain how a easy, klm, ba, ei, luft newbie out of flight school is any better to that of a ryr pilot of the same experience?

oh and the flying is good. people are great but I just don't T§C's to get out of control!

rant over i'll prepare for the onslaught!

[CIPO]

For fooks sake, wake up & smell the coffee! The only peeps happy in FR are low time 2 stripers(& not all of them are). Start listening to those who know. When was the last time you saw anyone in the right seat with 3 stripes?? :hmm: Get your 3 stripes & you'll start throwing the toys out of the pram. Your surplus to requirements until you get 4 stripes. Of course that can come up quicker than you think if you use your 500, 1000hrs or whatever buzzing around in a C152 :=

As i said before FLIGHT SCHOOL!

[YYZ]

CIPO

CMD is 3000 JAR25, not C152.

YYZ

[Rhodes13]

CIPO and the like. I find it ironic that you and your type bleat about how bad it is at RYR and you want to yell it to all around you but the moment someone disagrees with you you immediately call them a low timer wannabe or something else and say that their opinion doesn't count because they don't have thousands of hours watching a tv screen.

Why can't you just accept that like you there are people that don't like RYR and then there are people that actually do like it! Ask yourself if it was truly a slave labour camp like you say wouldn't our turnover of pilots be a lot lot higher than it is?

You have to wonder at the intelligence level and the manners of some people in here. Just because someone has two posts to his name his opinion isn't valued because he possibly has a life and doesn't sit here on this stupid forum and listen to the sad sad people that continually bitch. Or to those people who are the grammar police mocking people because their english isn't at A level grade. FFS last time I checked the ability to express an opinion didn't include the ability to speak english at university level.

Before anyone has a go at me yes I fly for RYR and do I like my lot.Like Ive always said it can and should be improved but is it as bad as people say? Hell no. And before anyone asks Ive seen my share of bosses.

Some of you should stop living in the past where as pilots we could dictate terms. People here bitch about RYR when they don't see the bigger picture. As a whole profession we are suffering from greedy employers. Take a look at any of the forums and you'll see people complaining about CX, QF, AA, EK , BA and the list goes on and on. But hang on RYR is destroying it for all of us. Lets blame RYR for everything!

People try and move on. If you dont like it LEAVE. I cant say that enough. if you like it stay. Life is to short to be miserable. Or perhaps its a case of the grass is always greener.

I flew with a Captain the other day that came out with a classic. What do you call a group of pilots?

A whinge!

[the grim repa]

Whilst i am reticent to post here and do not want to get involved again with more management plants.I HAVE BEEN RYANAIR OVER 10 YEARS!!!why do i stay,perhaps foolishness or hopefulness.either ways it is quite possible that a minority find it a nice place to work and that may well be tempered by the relativity of what you have experienced before in other companies e.t.c e.t.c.it is a fact however and a management tactic that within ryanair many have NO relative experience in another airline and therefore cannot judge the good/bad of their current position.
in my experience,year on year ryanair has stripped pilots terms and conditions,they have driven the majority of those who would choose a career in ryanair out the door and have dragged numerous pilots who tried to stem the tide of open oppression pervasive to this day within the company through the courts in an attempt to ruin their lives and careers.far too many shocking examples of day to day treatment of pilots and their families to anotate her.
suffice to say that you can believe 1 year experience or my 10 year experience,either way i do not give a damn.
i will tell you this however,anyone thinking of long term career in ryanair.forget about it.they will pay you the minimum and hope you will leave after a few years.that is the system.no pension etc.this is at a time of relative security in the aviation recruitment market.those who are stuck in ryanair when there is no other place to go to,you are in deep ****!!!
for those who are 1 year in and are happy with the wifes grub and spain,enjoy it while it lasts,i did initially.then i had my eyes wide opened!!!


YOU HAVE NO FUTURE IN RYANAIR!!!!

[Lazy skip]

YYZ,

Command in FR is with 3000 total,
Actually you will be assesed for command with 2900 pending,
- 1 winter season on the 800,(oct/mar)
- 2 good or better lpc,
- 1500 jar 25,
- 500 on the 800
So let`s say that I join today with 1500hr on the C152,I would expect to be considered for command by Sep.09 (best or worst case scenario :confused:)

[YYZ]

Not aware of that, was told different...

I am always happy to stand corrected..

YYZ

[CIPO]

Its actually the likes of the Grim Repa & myself with a bit of cop on, personal experience & intelligence who see the big picture & what is happening at Ruinair has far wider implications than within FR. Anyway all the contract pilots don't give a toss as long as they get their £80/£150hr, MOL knows this hence the number of them in the company.......
Aer Lingus are trying it on in Belfast & even WW at BA.

[MrHorgy]

Playing devils advocate here:

Just out of interest, why do people think their company should pay for them to have the priviledge to park their car at the airport? I've worked in an office, and they never paid me to park in Central London - they'd go bankrupt pretty quickly. They also didn't pay for my shirt and tie I wore to the office, even though they had a defined uniform policy. So why is it so AWFUL Ryanair do it?

Also, speaking from my experience, a smaller base is always better than a larger one, it's more like a team/family. I enjoyed my time working at Leeds Bradford far better than at Manchester.

Horgy

[Stan Woolley]

Actually what has happened is that the likes of Grim Repa don't know how much other companies have changed for the worse in the last ten years.

At least in lifestyle Ryanair has been a driver in the improvement to rosters in other low cost carriers. I think 5 on 4 off is one of the best deal around in that regard.

I'm not a newbie, maybe I've been fortunate but I do have experience of a number of airlines including Britannia for example.Been here 3 years and at the moment have no plans to leave.I also know that could change in a moment - that's just a fact.

It's simple hypocrisy to hate Ryanair that much but stay ten years - pathetic really - it really doesn't say a lot for your self confidence, does it?

I hated my previous companies attitude to rostering and it wore me down - getting out was the best thing ever - try it!

[easymoney]

Some good posts above.

As usual it always comes down to, if you are in favour or against the original poster.

And of course both sides usually can back up their argument with facts or perceived facts which may be relative to past experience of lack of past experience.

The bottom line is FR have 1700 pilots working for them. I can assure you that quite a lot of these guys a very happy working for FR. Now whether their happiness is based on how FR treat them or not (most probably the case), but most don't really care how FR treat them as they are mainly only concerned with the short term dollar symbol.

As for the experience level in FR........probably one of the companies with the most experience levels in Europe, that's of course if you can look outside of the box. Loads of our Captains have shed loads of experience working for some of the so called flag carriers all over Europe.

If you are happy now with FR....enjoy it. As for "if you don't like it you can always leave"syndrome, well it's been said many times before on here, what's happening at FR, and it's happening, will follow to the rest of the industry. Take OUR Lingus for example, what's the future for a career pilot there. A company that's a third owned (at the mo) by FR, 20 odd percent by a government that wants rid of the shares, but can't, and a minority by employees and pension fund (at a loss).

No one is safe.

For those who seem to be FR realists, well they know the truth, for those that are not, well they have yet the learn it.

FR could be compared to a cancer. Deadly, but with the ability to destroy all including itself. So, anyone know what the possible cure is.

[M80]

MrHorgy:

You get to chose your 'uniform' in an office environment within a certain bracket of clothing. Not everyone is in identical suits. If an airline wishes it's pilots to wear the same gash quality suits, it's a uniform in the more traditional sense, and should be supplied - if only to facilitate conformity from one supplier. If you're given leeway to turn up for work smartly dressed, I'd be down to the tailors and happy to fund that little trip myself...

[Stan Woolley]

If you are happy now with FR....enjoy it. As for "if you don't like it you can always leave"syndrome, well it's been said many times before on here, what's happening at FR, and it's happening, will follow to the rest of the industry.

Well if enough people who are hacked off get off their ass and leave maybe Ryanair would have to change their attitude?

Only not enough are leaving. Why not? Maybe its because on balance they are content to stay? (Mmm.....Options in the UK??????)

A few years ago hundreds of pilots left Easy over a relatively short span of time which is the real reason they looked with some seriousness at the rostering issues. Whinging about it from within had NO effect.

Ryanair are practical. They make no pretence at being 'nice'. In my experience that's how nearly all companies are despite the pretence of being 'caring'.What they offer is good rostering and quick progression(or immediate in the case of Captains) to good money.These two things are in fact what many experienced pilots care about the most.

Find me an example from any company where the senior guys lost major benefits by supporting junior colleagues and I'll show you the average pilot mentality. Sad but true.

Cynic or Realist? Probably both.

[easymoney]

Did the change in Easy not come because of Union Representation. Am I wrong in thinking this.

Of course you can leave to try and change a companies mentality. But that change may or may not be relevant to you once you leave. The relevance is it may follow you, and you did nothing about it while you had a chance.

For anyone to think they mean anything to FR, and that by leaving, it will affect the way management think needs to have their head examined. FR rely on people leaving....as said before we are one of the biggest employers of new recruits. People have left in their droves. And to what effect. If you leave, it's for your own personal reasons, not to try and change things here (remember the FR effect is not too far behind). The only way change can come is from within.......this, I know FR are scared of. This is the reason they have battled long and hard in the courts.

In this company you are alone, you have zero protection. For all the happy go lucky ones, it's not about money, the money you get is less than you deserve, but the main thing lacking in this company is your respect as an employee.


Don't get me wrong, I am not FR bashing, I live in hope that FR could be a company to be proud to work for.

[Wee Willy McGorbals]

To qoute MOL in the local rag "a recession would be great for the aviation industry", how much respect do you think you would get then?

Anyone seen 10 tonnes of traffic load lately?

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Some good arguments here. On balance it applears that a significant number of Ryanair pilots who choose to stay are happy with their lot - or at least happy with the status quo. Here at easyJet we have recently been the recipient of a number of less happy individuals from Ryanair who are delighted to be here instead. It is undoubtedly true that the travel between Ryanair and easyJet over the years has been a 2-way street - right now it is pretty one-way from Ryanair to the Orange Order. As the offended of Ryanair will rightly point out, in the past the travel was very definitely in the other direction - such is the game of 'Snakes and Ladders' called the airline industry.

There is undoubtedly a profoundly anti-Ryanair sentiment that exists in many airlines. Indeed it is very common for me to hear other pilots I fly with, in moments of quiet reflection, to remark on their own staggering good fortune not to work there. Whatever the truth, there is something about Ryanair that sets off uncontrolled and irrational ranting among otherwise reasonable people. The sad thing for me is that the clear answer to all these difficulties is unionisation - BALPA-represented companies overall enjoy better conditions. Our recent batch of new arrivals, from a wide variety of backgrounds have all come in search of the promised land that flows with milk and honey - and indeed it does relative to the various companies they left behind! The problem is that everyone wants something for nothing - easyJet became the place it is right now by high BALPA membership and some hard-edged negotiations on our behalf. We were not magically met by some kind-hearted management guru who just wanted us all to feel good about ourselves. With the lowering of relative membership, we at easyJet are facing a much more Ryanair-esque approach to negotiations by emboldened managers who, with some justification, believe that the pilots are now a soft touch. It is to be hoped that the freeloaders will come to their senses and join BALPA before we face the same snags Ryanair pilots are facing now. I wish all my colleagues at Ryanair the very best, but I sure do not envy the complete lack of respect that you are subjected to within your own company.

[Wingswinger]

Anyone seen 10 tonnes of traffic load lately?

Yep. Every sector I fly for EZY from LGW is >10 tonnes payload. :E

There is undoubtedly a profoundly anti-Ryanair sentiment that exists in many airlines.

There is also a growing anti-FR sentiment amongst the public in the UK. More and more people realise that EZY is actually a bit upmarket from FR and that is why they choose us.

We were not magically met by some kind-hearted management guru who just wanted us all to feel good about ourselves. With the lowering of relative membership, we at easyJet are facing a much more Ryanair-esque approach to negotiations by emboldened managers who, with some justification, believe that the pilots are now a soft touch. It is to be hoped that the freeloaders will come to their senses and join BALPA before we face the same snags Ryanair pilots are facing now.

Spot on, NSF. We need to bang some sense into the heads of the free-loaders, not wait for them to come to it. And the IPA.

EZY stands on the cusp of enormous success for customers, staff and shareholders alike. It can be the Southwest of Europe. We can not let it be wrecked by the greed of a few here-today-gone-tomorrow suits in open-necked shirts and cabin crew uniforms.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Since when has BALPA, or IALPA or any other ALPA in Europe been the panacea???

Whenever the sh1t hits the fan pilots will unfailingly and with staggering unity look after Number 1 and to hell with everyone else!! The " I'm all right Jack" syndrome is alive and doing very well in the pilot community.

The guys at FR are just living the truth....the bottom line counts and you are on your own!!

[Catabolic IBS]

A good question but not fully answered:

Should they all stay on for 10 years or more? Is that a solution?
Why do you stay? Is it to gain unity within the pilot ranks? To piss off management? Work together with BALPA IALPA IMPACT or any other "Gentlemans club"? Or are you simply "reasonably" content with the JOB and pissed of with management styles?

[al446]

Hi Flycheaper, I am multi-lingual, English, Dutch, French and profanity. wife does Spanish and Portugese.
I am very surprised at your English and stand by previous posters doubts. In the 3 yrs I lived in Amsterdam I never heard the kind of lingual faux-pas you have posted. I will subject it scrutiny by an academic friend of mine and get back to you.
I had rose tinted specs in my first job (not flying) but soon wore off, I was young.
If you are a FR mouthpiece, FR must be desperate. Hope you aint gonna be takin me from EGGP to LEGR next month.
If not, listen to what the exp guys on here are saying, some have been round the block a few times, no offense guys. Talk to the older people, learn the history. I am no hot-head but realise that only a strong union can stop the erosion of T&Cs, if they can hit you they can hit smaller people like me or those who can be more easily targetted, they are the experienced guys.
If you fly a desk, hope 'sink rate' rings in your ears forever, if you are flyin, join the good guys.

Al

[jiffajaffa]

Ryanair,

T&C's I have no doubt are s**te and have seen all ryanair threads, but who else employs cadets with 250hrs??

12 cv's later to almost every airline in Europe and Ryanair the only one to get back to me???

Is it just me or other low hour guys who have this problem?? :ugh:


I respect all the pilots who are doing this for a living and no doubt they have been around the block more than a few times and im not ignoring there advice however everybody needs a break at the start and thats what Ryanair are giving people, why do people put down cadets if they choose to work for RYR, sometimes this is there only option and with a debt of 95k hanging over your head the last thing you want to do is turn down a job offer!

Our options are limited even in a rapidly expanding industry!

Im just asking for a little understanding from the experienced guys on this!

:ouch:

[Kempus]

Just a little thing regarding this statement, not the poster,

listen to what the exp guys on here are saying, some have been round the block a few times, no offense guys. Talk to the older people, learn the history. I am no hot-head but realise that only a strong union can stop the erosion of T&Cs, if they can hit you they can hit smaller people like me or those who can be more easily targetted, they are the experienced guys.

Like most I come on this site most days and read all the Ryanair bashing and how all the new guys are erroding all the T&C's for everyone in the industry.

Now I was one of the lucky guys who was offered 2 jobs on the same day, one of them happened to be from FR, the other a well established LHR airline with nice blue and white buses! Due to unforseen events I'm now flying a blue white and yellow boeing around europe.

Now what winds me up is all this crap about saying dont go to FR, dont ruin it for the rest of us. The rest of who exactly? The guys that have been at it for years and have the experience and power to do something about it?
Now I pay my BALPA membership and all it seems to do is get yous guys better T&C's whilst ours stay as pants as normal!

All of a sudden I'm paying for you guys to moan at me for trying to make it in an industry which is every man for themselves! Do you think the guys at BA, EZY, VIR, BMI will turn round and help those in other airlines like FR?

And the question from that.... why not??

Aviation is one big family. How often do you say I know that person from such and such or I know someone who knows them etc.....

Now if your not gonna help, stop getting on at the guys trying to get that break or you could maybe leave your seat and let someone else have a go!

Oh, and for the record FR aren't actually that bad, just dont let them push you around and enjoy the flying! Rosters are good, money is better than a lot of airlines and honestly tell me a more than a handfull of airlines that dont charge for TR or put you on a reduced salary to start as your bonded. Think you'll find after 5 years we've all earned the same!

The world is not the same place and neither is the airline industry so its about time some people came round to that fact!

rant over i'll await the on slaught from my fellow BALPA members who have just secured another pay rise at my expense!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Kempus



You don't mind FR and you are reasonably happy, good for you and good luck with it. Having said that, I thought you made a good case until you said this.

rant over i'll await the on slaught from my fellow BALPA members who have just secured another pay rise at my expense!

What are you talking about?

Pay rises, roster agreemants and the like negotiated at ezy, BA etc are secured through union membership.
You will only ever get shafted by FR, because you are not allowed to have any union recognition. BALPA, IALPA etc are far from perfect but the cold hard fact is FR is a mess, with god knows how many different contracts and pay scales, each worse than the one previous, because it is as Slim Shady pointed out, every man for himself. I know lots of FR guys, none af them are happy but they are all resigned to their lot.

Until you guys at FR act collectively you will continue to make MOL and his fellow management scum rich and get screwed over yourselves while you are at it. And the rest of us moan in your direction because as sure as the Irish like a drink, you will eventually be bringing us with you.

[potkettleblack]

The problem for the guys and gals that have been at FR for quite some time is that the T&C's are being constantly eroded. Someone who is a skipper might be on say EUR100k (figures plucked from the sky but probably not far off for someone in under 10 years). It probably sounds a lot. But remember that each year they give you a pay rise with the one hand and then deduct a bit for this or a bit for that or change the rostering system so you are working longer.

The problem arises when you stay in TOO long. Each of us typically spends up to our own means. We take out mortgages up to the limit of our means so that we can live in a better area. So whilst they might want to jump ship going to a legacy carrier where you might be on 50k as an f/o is a hard pill to swallow. Yes they will get their pension, sector pay, uniforms, carparking, meals, union recognition, seniority list, hotels etc etc but they still have to pay the mortgage at the end of the day.

The moral of the story is leave early or don't go there in the first place. History has shown that membership of IALPA/BALPA will get you very little as management have no willingness whatsoever to come to the negotiating table despite the best interests of many of the pilot fraternity.

[preduk]

I can understand the problem from both sides...

From an experienced pilot point of view, if other airlines see Ryanair getting away with this then they may begin to bring these policies into their own recruitment system. If you were to stand up to them and say no you don't want the job because of their system, they would eventually need to change the system.

However, from a new pilot view there are very little jobs currently available so it's an easy step into the industry.

I'm not an airline pilot, but I believe pilots should stand together against these Terms so that they are forced to change their ways.