Astraeus pilots fly for nothing

[king surf]

Is it true that Astreaus actually charges some of its junior FO's to fly their aircraft??:=

[rziola]

Morning old chap

Technically, these boys and girls are paying for line training, getting those 100/300/500 hours on type, whether it is worth anything? The verdict is still open; however, some do get hired by astreaus or other players following the conclusion.

[manrow]

That is outrageous.

I hate to mention minimum wage regulations, but this is a scandal.

Are any of the management 'employed' on the same basis as a result of the 'experience they are receiving?'

[PPRuNe Radar]

They are not employees, but pilots paying for 'training' services. As I understand it.

[manrow]

Okay, but are they operating or 'training' on public transport flights?

[orangesky]

... dont you think it would be a bit expensive to only have training on non-revenue flights ? i think you will find that most airlines train new recruits, whether self funded or not, on commercial flights ... there is no other way around this. the difference with Astraeus is that, as mentioned earlier, the trainees are not employees.

[Flintstone]

The 'difference' is not that simple.

Correct, they are not employees. They are pilots paying to operate commercially which in my opinion is even worse than self funding type ratings and yet another nail in the coffin of this industry's so-caled professionialism.

It's disgusting.

[Stampe]

Because of less than satisfactory experience with pilots who,d gained some hours on type on "pay for line training schemes" all pilots joining my airline with less than 500 hours on type have to have a full type rating course irrespective of holding a rating.This makes paying for line experience a waste of time.VBR Stampe

[Mercenary Pilot]

Personally I think this practice of pilots paying for hours on airliners engaged in commercial operations should be stopped by legal means. It is blatantly NOT "line training", they are sitting in the right hand seat as an acting first officer and should be getting paid at least minimum wage. Also it means that an airline involved in this type of exploitation will not have a decent level of experience in the RHS due to constant turnover of F/O's.

Another consideration is that you have a potential situation where you have a first officer who is not up to standard but sits there because of their wallet and it creates an unfair market balance as the airline has reduced their crew wage bill considerably compared to their competitors.

Also worth noting that one of the airlines in Europe who operate this "scheme" have had a fatal accident with a large loss in life in the last 12 months.

Rant over, I think I've said this numerous times on here and the wannabes thread before.

[Flintstone]

paying for a TR has been around for decades
That doesn't make it right. Will paying for line training be an accepted practice in twenty years time? You only have to look at Ryanair to see where that has led, the way the management perceive the crew. O'Leary knows there'll always be someone prepared to undercut their 'colleagues'.


but paying for line training is wrong
Would you have said paying for a type rating was wrong twenty years ago? I suspect you would.

Its no good giving the chaps doing it a hard time;
Why not? They are undermining the rest of us just as those who first paid for their type ratings did.

How would you feel if you lost your job to someone who was paying to fly? Because that's what's happening here. The next step is someone who passes the line training and buys another block of hours. Twenty more years down the road will that be acceptable?

[Jenson Button]

If the people paying for the line training are good enough to succeed the type rating course why on earth are they paying for line training as well. Oh how naive(sic) of me, its to get a foothold upon the airline pilot job ladder. Whats wrong with a bit of working your way up the industry from GA to Corporate to Regional to Long Haul (and perhaps back !!!) Why not just buy your way to the airline jet jockey job with a fat 20k odd cheque to Bond or Astraeus. I remember the good intentions of Astraeus when it first started offering type ratings and the potential for a job with a semi-sponsored scheme about 5 years ago. Thats disappeared and instead we see money-no-object idjits gate-crashing a profession for little or no reward. Who is taking who for a ride ???

I imagine that the Astraeus "trainees" working at LHR going to Freetown this summer will be earning less than the cleaners:}:}:}

Jenson

[king surf]

If its true what do balpa have to say about these practices which if true are morally and professionally wrong.I guess you have to work for BA for balpa to get involved:ugh:

[Guttn]

Can anybody explain to me why this bs practise is accepted by the IFALPA? To me it seems that they have never done anything to stop it, that`s why I say that they accept it. :yuk: They`re good at looking after their union mates and all (yes I`m a member), but what about the future members and their right for employment on an equal basis? :ugh: This really bugs me, since a lot of good pilots who have worked their way through instructor jobs to GA companies, even corporate, are getting bypassed by inexperienced pilots straight out of flight school and a fresh TR just because they have paid their way to the airlines. Disgusting. :yuk::=

[King Halibut]

'LHR going to Freetown'. Freetown .... the poor buggers :}

[mikehammer]

How would you feel if you lost your job to someone who was paying to fly? Because that's what's happening here. The next step is someone who passes the line training and buys another block of hours. Twenty more years down the road will that be acceptable?

I fully understand your opinion, and whilst now that I have a proper flying job it would be easy to jump on the bandwagon and say ban the desperados who go to these lengths, let's remember that they have got themselves that way by being between a financial rock and a hard place: having thrown good money (and a lot of it) after CPL/IR training without the possibility of financial return on their investment. The problem stemmed from the decision to start training in the first place, not from the decision to pay for a rating or for line training. Too many pilots must be being trained if there is a surfeit of qualified people having to pay to get more experience to get themselves noticed. It's easy to blame them but let's try and remember the desperation which forced them into this in the first place.

Whilst I did not myself have the choice of paying for ratings or line training, if I could have found the funds it would have been a fairly good investment and most probably got me that return on my initial investment (which was beginning to look a total loss at the time) because it would have helped me into a jet salary. Although I was forced to do it the "hard way" by flying a photographer, there weren't many GA jobs around, and I was lucky to get one, especially in my area of the country. This type of work does not pay well, and the two hour each-way drive from home to work cost more than I was earning, so, in a way, I was paying for my hours. Even now, I am so low paid as a turbo prop FO there is little profit after travelling and living expenses, my salary is half that of an Easyjet FO. In a way I am STILL paying for experience, why is that more acceptable?

Without hours and experience few get jobs (although some are lucky), more often than not those hours and experience are required to include turbine and multi crew time. Quite often jet time is the preference.

What's the answer? I've not a clue.

It would help if wanabes were better educated as to the true facts facing them at the end of their initial training. It would also help if it were possible to plan a career strategy and go step by step up the rungs of your flying career, but so much of it depends on luck and being in the right place at the right time, as there are simply not enough jobs to go around at any level of the ladder. Let's not forget that the instructing route generally involves paying for a rating, it just costs less, but then the pay is very low too.

Whilst I can see that having to pay for line training is a poor thing to be asked by an airline, I can see why the trainee does it: to them it is simple logic.

[Stampe]

"What have Balpa got say" the answer is Astraeus is an airline that negotiates with the IPA says it all really.VBR Stampe

[potkettleblack]

Unfortunately for wannabes BALPA and IFALPA and the other national pilots bodies across the world have bigger fish to fry. Our T&C's (and yours one day) are under constant attack so efforts tend to get focussed on the more important issues facing members. Things like pensions, pay rises, increases in rostered hours, days off, breaks, layover times downroute, quality of hotels, meals etc etc. Remember also that many of the unions survive by using volunteers from the pilot body and there are only so many hours that they can give whilst balancing work and home life. If you want greater representation then perhaps the best way is to get wannabes to join unions in the first place and lead by example with setting up sub committees to focus on issues specific to that portion of the membership. You could then take the various arguments to the likes of the CAA eg: impact on flight safety with pay for your own type rating f/o's on the flight deck.

[king surf]

hope the pilots have enough money to pay for malaria tablets at 30 quid a go.:hmm:

[LOOKUP]

What's the big surprise???

Good old Eagle Jet that is doing the exact same thing for ages . . .
What a rip off . .

I'm happy at least to see they have knocked their prices by more them 50% . . it means hopefully that the pay to work enterprise of their isn’t doing very good.
slowly but surely businesses like them will disappear off the face of the earth . .

[max nightstop]

The original qustion was "Is it true that Astraeus do this?" I know they used to, when they were tied up with Bond. I was under the impression that their relationship had broken up.

If so, do Astraeus still charge for line training or not? Perhaps someone can answer this specifically.

Thanks

Max

[Mercenary Pilot]

I'm really glad to see some intelligent debate on this for once (usually im flamed for being "anti-wanabee" :rolleyes:).

BALPA should do something because it does have a impact on new hire T+C's but in my experience they seem fairly disinterested or ineffective with even small airlines so I doubt we will see any action from them.

Paying for a TR is different in many respects because it is all training and the TRTO (whether its a dedicated facility or part of an airline) is offering a service. As long as there are freelance pilots, we will need TRTOs.

However, the question should be asked whether offering a 757/747 rating to a 150hr pilot is ethical? What exactly are the chances of said pilot finding employment? From my experience, not so good. Hence these hour building programmes springing up (lets be honest, its really not line training).

I think they are getting around employment laws by calling it line training when its blatantly not.

[no sponsor]

Astraeus has been doing this for at least the past three years. I fly with an ex-Astraeus skipper who stated it felt a bit odd with guy sitting next to him as the f/o who was both a colleague and a customer.

I think it is wrong. However, what do people think about the CTC scheme which places F/Os at the hands of EasyJet and others who are not paid for the first 6 months. This has the same effect on T&Cs but for some reason, people seem to think this is an OK state of affairs.

[Penworth]

I don't think the CTC scheme is quite as bad as some of these other schemes for several reasons:

1) CTC cadets don't pay to sit in the RHS to gain experience.
2) An allowance of £1000 as well as duty pay and sector pay are paid to the trainee.
3) They are almost certain to be offered a permanent contract at the end of the 6 months (especially Easyjet), hence companies aren't (in the main) using this as a way to get cheap employees for 6 months before letting them go.
4) The type rating is paid for by the airline, so not only is the trainee not paying for line training, but they get a free type rating.

However, maybe I'm biased as I'm an ex-ctc cadet ;)

[Phileas Fogg]

It is a very sad situation but a few years ago pilots were offering for pay for their type ratings, nowadays I receive numerous applications whereas they seem to have accepted that a type rating (only) will not secure them a job and they are asking to buy hours on type.

Whist Astraeus might have been one of the forerunners in selling hours just have a look at the prices that eaglejet.net are charging, it's scandalous.

Who knows where it will end, first pilots paid for 100 hours, now 300 or 500 hours, what next?

[Heffer]

I believe said operator has ONE F/O going through line training under this arrangement at present.

I would question the motive of the thread starter.

[Callsign Kilo]

In an answer to someones question...'Are Astraeus still doing this.'

Yes they are, I know of a few people who have went down this route after completing their 757-200 TR with Bond. From what I believe, if Astraeus were recruiting on this fleet, a cadet straight out of Bond Aviation who may have been approached by the airline via the TR provider would be informed that if they wished to be considered for the position they would have to purchase the line training package prior to any offer :eek: This is the story that circulated round my FTO when a number of guys straight out of their IR training signed up to the Bond/Astraeus program.

As said before, Eaglejet have been doing this for years....and from what I believe don't do a great job of it either. Recent stories from the wanabee forum involved people embarking on training with Eaglejet and Royal Air Maroc. Little good was said about the way it had been arranged. However I have little sympathy for anyone who signs up for these sort of deals and gets treated badly. More fool them!

There is also a company based in the UK called Sigmar which offers the TR/Line Training package on the A320. Their partner airline is no other than My Travel! Similar scenario to Astraeus, but with 350 hours.

I'm sure there are others, however they may not be as common

[king surf]

Hi Heffer,I have no motif as you suggest.I was just having a drink the other night down route and the conversation came up in a roundabout way talking about rock groups.Iron maiden came up which somehow led to Astreus!!.Judging the reaction so far i think my question has struck a nerve amongst pilots.I'm sure that the travelling public would also raise an eyebrow or two.
Cheers,kingsurf.

[Oh that's super!]

Industrial, professional and moral issues aside, how about the safety issues?

Most of those FOs who are paying to fly must surely need money to live, and unless they have managed to get a very nice source of funds from their relatives or banks, they would need to take on a second job to live on? What would that do for fatigue, concentration, etc?

[Shagtastic]

Astraeus are only trying to make an extra pound..:suspect:

Got to finance managements wives working as secretaries somehow.

Shags

[fade to grey]

Whatever you think of this kind of scheme, it has been a tremendous way for low experience pilots to get straight onto a jet,
If you have the money and ability then why not ?As we all know its a cut throat world out there and you need to get ahead of the opposition somehow...

[Stpaul]

The passengers are getting 2 qualified crew as both have type ratings. the argument abour low houred pilots is rubbish because this is no different to what virtually every airline does in the uk. BA, Thomsonfly,Ryaniar, Easy, Jet2, First Choice, thomas cook etc etc, all do line training on their 737/757/320 fleets for low houred pilots. Are they also shortchanging their passengers then?So the ONLY difference is that the person in the seat is paying instead of getting paid.

This is a useful facility, I disagree that people should have to pay for all line training, but what do you do if you were taken on by an airline , did your TR but before you finished your line training the airlines ceased operation? Its not ideal having to pay for line training but in certain cases it can be beneficial to getting work again.

[Guttn]

St.Paul, 2 qualified crew? Meaning 4 pilots? I think you mean 2 type rated pilots, of which one has been qualified as commander due to his or her level of experience. For the F/O.... if the only difference is that he or she is getting paid or giving the airline money, well that`s 2 different worlds. :yuk:

Yes, airlines put their new-hires on line training, of course, how else will they get the experience? But this all happens AFTER they have gone through the airline`s selection process, passed the airline`s TR and are out on line with the airline`s training Captains. What could the difference be....? :rolleyes::mad:

Fade to grey, there are always at least 2 sides to every story. Have the money and ability is one way of putting things. Another way could be not being able to get hired by the smaller companies first. Or even as an FI. Or even worse - getting fired by either small companies or flight schools (as FI) because you`re just not competent enough to hack it. Next step smells like a SF TR to me. And that`s what makes me very sceptical to all operators who have this policy.

[Mercenary Pilot]

if you have the money and ability then why not ?They may have the money but not necessarily the skill, they have paid to sit there.

BA, Thomsonfly,Ryaniar, Easy, Jet2, First Choice, thomas cook etc etc, all do line training on their 737/757/320 fleets for low houred pilotsBut that actually IS line training with a view to keeping the cadet as a long term employee who will become an experienced pilot. What Astreaus and others are doing is not line training, its hour building! After the cadet has his 100, 300 or 500 hours its time for the next wannabe to take his place.

So the ONLY difference is that the person in the seat is paying instead of getting paid.Well that's a BIG difference. :hmm:

pro·fes·sion·al

1. a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career
3. Performed by persons receiving pay
4. Having or showing great skill; expert


Its the difference between a professional pilot and an amature.

[King Halibut]

Trouble is I've bumped into loads of guys who had trouble getting all their hours at AEU as the next guy came up behind them expecting to get his 100 hours.

Saying that, chaps have been bowling up at my airline having done their time at AEU on the 757 so in that respect it has got them to a point where they actually get a chance of a job.

Course I don't really agree with paid hour building but you don't spend all that money training to just mingle with the other supermarket manager lookalikes at the BALPA conference.

I also don't like the attitude of these hour building outfits as you're expected to be humble, grateful and a pain if you complain or expect your actual hours.

[Callsign Kilo]

Astraeus/Bond, Sigmar, Eaglejet...whoever! People are still going through these schemes and jumping the line to the RHS. I should know; having been through the process with a lo-co for nearly 8 months, only to be turned round to and told I wasn't getting the job because I didn't have the TR and the time on type. I was later to learn that people who had paid for their TR/line training had become sucessful.

So there you go, it's obviously working for some people. Many would say 'fair play - if you have the money, do it.' These guys must have had a bit of ability to get through everything, even if they paid for it! I don't agree with it, but who cares what I think! Certainly not the person who paid for his 100, 200 or 350 hours in the RHS of his Boeing or Airbus and got a job out of it as a result! :(

[Say again s l o w l y]

CK, that wasn't the company you and I were talking about over christmas was it?

If it was.....I'm furious for you:mad::mad::mad:

What is wrong with us pilots that we allow this sort of thing to become acceptable? It's no good blaming the inexperienced people for this. All the SFO's Skippers and management pilots who sit back whislt their companies "employ" people on this basis and do nothing should hang their heads in shame.

[Saxon Ops]

If it doesn't pay to do it then don't do it. However, I think the maths must work out in favour of the pilot because there is a queue of wannabes who want to do it.

It seems implausible to me that intelligent pilots cannot work out the cost-benefit case. Pilots choose an expensive - but highly rewarding (in terms of job satisfaction and remuneration) - career and it costs a lot to get to a point where the money rolls in. Some choose to mitigate the expense by getting the taxpayer to fund their training but for many the incovenience of 18 years military service means they have to fund their first steps up the airstairs.

Pilots are not unique in this regard. Most HGV drivers fund their own training as do a substantial proportion of bus/coach drivers, builders, plumbers, joiners, divers etc - whilst the cost of training is lower so are the ultimate rewards. How many careers are there where the wannabe doesn't do some of the funding.

No investment, no reward......that's life!

[calypso]

Please let me know where I can find someone that will pay me to :

Deliver goods to my house
Take my kids school on the next school visit
Fix the heating of my house
Do a loft conversion for me
Build me a wooden shed
Dive down to clean the hull of my boat

I am always willing to give a helping hand to young profesionals starting out. I am also not limited to the profesions above and I am specially willing to help tax accountans, lawyers, hoteliers, cooks, taxi drivers, mechanics, cleaners, gardeners and many others.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Consider though the option of getting a type rating without any line flying.
At least by actually flying the aircraft the standard of training has to be up to scratch for Astraeus to put the F/O's out on the line. There could be a view that some scrape through sim training and get signed up just because the TRE know's they are not going to the host airline ? :\

[Mister Geezer]

Say again s l o w l y

Whilst I and many other agree with your sentiments, trying to get your company to change its recruitment procedures is like hitting your head against a brick wall - have you ever tried? I am not a Ashtraysrus pilot but my company has a scheme where new F/Os are bonded for X years and the money is docked out of their gross salary over the bond period. I have pointed out to the powers that be that this does not serve as a bond since crews pay in the long term if they stay or go! Have things changed - no and the people behind this are the Beancounters and not Flight Ops management. That probably goes across the board!

These are tactics that will be hard to shift for many companies! It is not as simple as us older farts making noises to management.

[Say again s l o w l y]

It is a hard thing to do no doubt, but why haven't we BALPA members (I include myself in this) lobbied hard through the union and CC's (if applicable) to do something about it?

This is one one issue where a divided workforce with no representation or common voice can get stuffed about to pillar and post.

Apathy has allowed this to happen and in the words of Martin Niemoller.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

A bit melodramatic for certain in this case, but the principle is the same. If liberties start getting taken at the lower end of the scale, they'll start being taken higher up.

[2engop]

As part of the deal between Easyjet and Airbus, Airbus pay for so many FO's to be trained on the 319 and yet Easyjet still charge new FO's for a full TR. Is that fair to the new FO's?

[M80]

Unfortunately for wannabes BALPA and IFALPA and the other national pilots bodies across the world have bigger fish to fry. Our T&C's (and yours one day) are under constant attack so efforts tend to get focussed on the more important issues facing members. Things like pensions, pay rises, increases in rostered hours, days off, breaks, layover times downroute, quality of hotels, meals etc etc. Remember also that many of the unions survive by using volunteers from the pilot body and there are only so many hours that they can give whilst balancing work and home life. If you want greater representation then perhaps the best way is to get wannabes to join unions in the first place and lead by example with setting up sub committees to focus on issues specific to that portion of the membership. You could then take the various arguments to the likes of the CAA eg: impact on flight safety with pay for your own type rating f/o's on the flight deck. POTKETTLEBLACK

I can't help but feel that this is an incredibly blinkered viewpoint as the very necesity of paying for hours is surely eroding t&cs further up the chain by providing cheaper labour. In addition, what clout would 'wannabe' unions have?

It's patently obvious by now that wannabes have little sway over the market, and accept the requirements imposed by airlines. Perhaps those interested in protecting their t&cs should also be taking a genuine interest in the t&cs of new hires to prevent a knockon effect on themselves? To only be concerened about directly perceived erosion to t&cs seems short sighted.

[Phileas Fogg]

flapsfullretard

Mr Fogg

and rather than the 'thanks but no thanks' letter are you, or is your sec, replying with not just a one line letter, but maybe a second line stating that the line is drawn regarding paying for line training and warning them against it?

Retard,
To answer your question the positions I/we may have available and the requirements of 'being considered suitable' are clearly advertised. One such requirement has never been for the applicant to pay for his job but such is the desperation of some they fire off the standard application anyway.

If they write then they do not even get a reply, why be nice to guys prepared to 'prostitute' themselves and can't even understand the minimum required criteria of the advertisement thus just wasting one's time?

If they phone then they are, quite politely, informed 'we don't sell hours'.

One 'line' that I sometimes enjoy is that we advertise that they need a good command of the English language. Well, let us say, the requirement, advertised in the English language, is 500 hours on type and they phone with zero or significantly less than 500 hours on type, well, I inform them, they have just failed the English language test :)

[Mister Geezer]

M80

What may seem as a blinkered view taken by those pilots further up the chain is not a fair presumption since if we could change things then many of us would. If politics were changed that easily in our own backyard then BALPA to some extent would be redundant along with the Crew Councils that have to fight hard for the Ts and Cs for many UK airlines. Many of us have a hard slog fighting for our own Ts and Cs and since we often struggle up hill against what are sometimes tough odds, the thought of pursuing the interests of potential employees is bound to rank well down in our agenda - as harsh as it may seem. :(

[M80]

Thank for the reply. I understand that erosion of terms and conditions is a perpetual war of attrition and that resources are limited, with many pilots feel they are unable to effect change.

When you talk about the fight for your own terms and conditions as being different to that of the improvement of terms and conditions for new hires, that highlights my point. T&Cs of new hires directly affects T&Cs of established pilots. An influx of lower salaried pilots will devalue pilots across the spectrum.

We all like to bemoan the guys who are paying for hours, and they seem to be our punching bag. But with no one else looking out for them, they're doing what they see fit to get hired, to the detriment of the industry. Unfortunately, we'll no doubt all do nothing and it all goes in the 'Too Hard' box until one day flying won't be a viable employment option.

[mikehammer]

M80 hear, hear!

Very interesting set of points, and if others were prepared to accept that looking after those lower on the chain (a big assumption here), would in fact be helping themselves further up the chain, what would be the best way for them to go about doing this? Also what can those who have managed to get that first job do to protect terms and conditions for those behind them as they climb the ladder?

At the moment it is true to say that apparently all that seems to be done is to make a rallying call to the unions, and blame the type rating self sponsorers.

[Phileas Fogg]

Mr Angry From Purley,
Hiya 'A', the point here is that the passengers are paying down the back and even the guy/gal sitting up the front is paying, significantly more, for the seat he/she occupies.

I do have an insight into what goes on at 'Ashtrays' and of course they are only going to allow guys/gals that are up to scratch to proceed with the flying after their type rating but that doesn't prevent Ashtrays from doing the 'hard sell' on the T/R & flying package. Indeed there is often a backlog of guys/gals that have done the T/R but there simply aren't enough slots available to fill them in for the flying so, just perhaps, should a few not be up to scratch then, just perhaps, it might suit!

[A4]

So, presumably then, all Captains at Astraeus are Training Captains? Or do these pay-to-fly guys and gals only get to fly with Trainers. If not ...... how can they be under training if flying with a Line Captain? :confused:

A4

[standbyils]

PPrune never ceases to amaze me. A thread is started and opinions expressed without the correct information.

Bond (now known as Alpha) has a contract with AEU to help it market it's type rating courses. The contract, which I believe is now the bane of AEU, allows Alpha to sell line training on AEU aircraft. AEU get nothing from the deal accept the right to then employ the really good ones (if that coincides with a requirement). I understand that this was set up on a goodwill basis, when Bond and AEU were sister companies (now not the case).

I understand the new FTM at AEU is less than happy with the current arrangement he has inherited and only allows these Alpha/Bond cadets to fly with Trainers AND a safety pilot (and then only for 10 sectors - to fulfil contractual obligations). Apparently only 1 such cadet is in the system at present, so hardly cause for Union involvement.:rolleyes:

[King Halibut]

Bond and AEU were one and the same before AEU sold up.

[lookoutbelow]

Here, here standbyILS!,

You are completely correct.

If anybody would like to call the training dept at AEU in the search for line training, they will be told, without doubt, that it is not available through the airline on a commercial basis to self sponsored cadets.

Astraeus used to be the sole supplier of a limited amount of line training to Bond Aviation TRTO when they were sister companies - up until about 18 months ago. Any line training will, I believe, have been invoiced and provided to the student by Bond NOT Astraeus.

Since Bond and AEU split (approx. 18 months ago) Bond can request line training provision from AEU and subject to A) availability of training on the AEU line and B) the student passing AEU's OCC operator conversion course (including LPC/OPC SIM check and about 2 weeks ground courses) then AEU can provide LT to Bond as part of a reciprocal company agreement.

Bond has the contract to provide all of AEU's pilot training in terms of TRTO services/support and therefore it SHOULD be a reciprocal and successful arrangement.. as StandbyILS says that is a bone of contention with many at AEU at the moment... I will say no more.....

Also, any line training pilot that has sat in the RHS of an AEU aircraft through the above has done so following:

1) Passing an initial assessment to get onto a TR course with Bond (SIM assessment)
2) Passing the CAA approved B737/757 Tech ground school Course (3 Weeks) including a morning of CAA B737/757 tech exams
3) Passing the LST (Licence Skills test) at the end of the TR SIM course with a CAA appointed TRE (Type Rating Examiner)
4) Successfully completed Base Training with a CAA appointed base training captain (TRI (A)) in the aircraft to a good standard
5) having his/her full training file audited and assessed by the training management at AEU prior to acceptance - perhaps the best assessment for any pilots position, a detailed history of the pilots basic training and a full breakdown and write up of the 6-8 week TR course.
6) Passing the AEU OCC course including a further LPC/OPC with an AEU (CAA authorised) TRE, successfully.
7) a 5yr reference / criminal reference check and subsequently been issued a full BAA ID airport security pass

and will once cleared onto the line only be rostered to fly with AEU training captains (TRE's/TRI's and LTC's) and for at least the first 10 sectors with a safety pilot / FO as a third crew member sitting on the jump seat.

and Most importantly is there because more than anything else he or she WANTS to be there, has asked to be there and has demonstrated their ability and comitment to doing so having jumoed through all the above hoops.

None of the pilots in the RHS at AEU in the last 3 years will have paid AEU for their LT. Possibly to Bond, but it is Bond marketing the product and dealing with the pilot commercially not AEU. AEU and Bond had a good working relationship (until recently!) which worked in favour of both parties, simple as that.

You can argue until the cows come home about whether or not it is right to pay for TR's or indeed LT. The fact is the airlines want TR pilots but many are not prepared to pay for TR's and many cadet pilots want to fly jets because they want to progress quickly to a decent salary and are not type rated. Demand = Supply!

Whether it is Bond via AEU, EagleJet via Royal Air Maroc, Pegasus TRTO and Airlines , Sigmar via MyTravel or anyone else it will continue as long as pilots want it in my view..

[aztruck]

This wouldnt be a smear campaign would it? Surely not.

[Dan D'air]

Aztruck,

Hopefully not. I have flown with them many, many times and whilst they may be a small outfit, they are professional, service orientated and have some of the best crews I have ever met, both Flight and CC.

So what if they have some low-houred, in-training FO's?? Everything is legal, many Astraeus pilots have forgotten more than most of us will ever be lucky enough to learn, they certainly have developed skills that people who don't fly to deepest Africa/Asia never will and in only 5 years they have gone from being a start-up to if not a major player, then certainly a company which can compete amongst the larger charters.

And no, I don't work for, nor do I have any involvement with Astraeus, financial, vested or otherwise!!

[King Halibut]

Jet2 haven't had a slagging for a while :}