228 OCU Query

[rhino11]

I have the attached patch which I intend passing on to a former Phantom driver. However, he doesn't recall there being squadrons within the OCU. I have tried to Google 228 OCU but nothing gives me a clue. Can anyone explain?

Thanks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/rhino11/patch.jpg

[heights good]

It might be a course number rather than a sqn number.

[Wader2]

heights, apart from the fact it says 2 Sqn, it was not course 2 as the badge was not around when I was on course 5.

[airborne_artist]

Google "228 flt phantom" - and you'll get the info you need.

eg:

No 64 Squadron
http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn_Badges/064Sqn.jpgFormed as a training unit on 1 August 1916 at Sedgeford, it was equipped with FE2bs. It received DH5 fighters in June 1917 and in October moved to France to began operations. The DH5s were replaced by SE5As in March 1918 and conducted both fighter and ground-attack operations for the remainder of the war. It returned to Narborough in February 1919, where it disbanded on 31 December of the same year.
The squadron was reformed at Heliopolis on 1 March 1936 as a Demon fighter squadron, its aircraft having already been sent out and operated as extra flights of No's 6 and 208 Squadrons. It was immediately involved in the Abyssinian crisis carrying out attacks against enemy (Italian) airfields and providing fighter cover to refuelling bombers.
With the crisis over the squadron returned to the Martlesham Heath to become part of the UK air defences. Turret Demons began arriving in February 1938 and Blenheim fighters in December, by which time the squadron was based at Church Fenton. From here it carried out coastal patrols before moving up to Evanton for defence of the fleet. The squadron converted to Spitfires in April 1940, just in time to assist with air cover for the Dunkirk evacuation and later took part in the Battle of Britain.
From early 1941 the squadron then began a series of moves between Scotland and the south, providing defensive cover whilst up north and carrying out offensive operations from southern bases, equipped with various marks of Spitfire. However, in November 1944 the squadron converted to Mustangs and began long-range support duties to Bomber Command daylight raids.
With the war in Europe over, the squadron settled at Horsham St Faith, where it received the De Havilland Hornet long-range fighter in May 1946. In August it moved to its new base of Linton-on-Ouse, where it remained until August 1951, when it took its Meteors, received in April, to Duxford. Duxford remained its base for ten years, with the squadron converting to the night fighter role there in 1956. In September 1958 the squadron adopted the all-weather fighter role when it received Javelins. These were taken to Singapore in April 1965, where it provided all-weather cover until disbanding on 16 June 1967.
Since then the squadron has been the 'Shadow'/Reserve identity of No 228 OCU, first at Coningsby from 16 May 1968 and then Leuchars, to where the OCU moved on 22 Apr 1987. When the OCU disbanded on 31Jan 1991, so did No 64 Squadron.

[PPRuNe Radar]

But the patch doesn't say 64 Squadron, it says 2 Squadron. :sad:

Perhaps it was an internal division, using squadrons instead of flights ?? It may even have been an engineering thing rather than aircrew. Someone out there will know :ok:

[airborne_artist]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/images/sqnhistory.gif

The table (from here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/phantom3.html)) shows the sqns/units operating the Phantom in the RAF, and suggests that 2 Sqn and 228 OCU were never co-located, which is odd, given the badge design/info.

[BEagle]

In early 1977, whilst 92 Sqn were still flying the Lightning F2A at Gutersloh, Phantom conversion began at Wildenrath. Initially this used a pool of ex-2 Sqn and 228 OCU aircraft. 92 Sqn disbanded with the Lightning on 31 Mar 77 and reformed with the Wildenrath 'tomb element on 1 Apr 77.

Perhaps this badge is from that era?

[Northern Circuit]

erm.. wasnt it that 228 was a war reserve sqn for 2 sqn?

[1.3VStall]

No Guys,

It was much simpler than that. 228 OCU was so big in the days of the F4 mud-moving to AD changeover it was administratively split into three "squadrons" - I = sim, II = flying, III = engineering. Nothing at all to do with "number plate" RAF squadrons.

[airborne_artist]

http://marknicodemo.mu.nu/archives/simpson-doh.png

[Valiantone]

For those old enough to remember it, when 226 OCU used Lightnings at RAF Coltishall, they were split into 3 Sqns. And they gained individual unit identities as well....145 Sqn, 2T Sqn, and so on

So it surely follows that 228 would be the same when they had a larger influx of aircrew.

just my tuppence worth

V1

[rhino11]

1.3VStall - thanks for that. My friend thought it may be something to do with a split between Sim and flying so it will nice to let him have a badge that was appropriate for him :)

[CharlieJuliet]

According to my logbook, signatures in 1969 show that Derek Bryant was OC 1 Sqn and Ken Hayr was OC 2 Sqn (both Sqn Ldrs at the time). So in those days 1 Sqn did the conversion, air defence and combat training and 2 Sqn did the ground attack and recce training. I think that ground school and sim was 3 Sqn. Engineering was centralised and came under Wingco Eng (and that, another story!!)

[soddim]

Quite right CharlieJuliet. Having served on both 1 and 2 sqns of 228OCU during that period I can confirm that information. That was the way it stayed until the demise of multirole and the change to single role air defence in 1974.

I never managed to work out why a two-man crew in a multirole aircraft should be stuck with a single role.

[A2QFI]

At the risk of being controversial, re multi role crews, I seem to recall that 41 Sqn did recce 11+ months a year and after a couple of week's practice used to beat the GA Sqns at their own game! Was there a trophy involved? I don't recall.

[Geehovah]

Absolutely correct:

In the Air Defence days, 1 Sqn was the Sim, 2 Sqn the Flying and 3 Sqn the Eng although the latter had sort of died out by the time I was back on the OCU in the early 80s.

The patch shown was the informal patch for the flying side of the OCU which was mostly worn by the studes. Some instructors wore it but most of us tended to wear the 64 Sqn patch (the shadow sqn number) and the 1000/2000 hrs patches.

The Squadrons were dropped in a reorg in about 1983 just before the OCU moved across the airfield into the hardened accommodation.

[rhino11]

Geehovah - your info is right in the time frame I was looking for! My friend went through the OCU early '83 IIRC and I'm fairly sure I acquired the patch on a base photo tour in April that year. Sadly Agfa screwed up the processing of that batch of film so I have some shots with a very peculiar pink tinge!! However with the wonders of modern technology here is one I salvaged by way of a thank you :ok:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/rhino11/228FGR2.jpg

[Zoom]

Whoever drew up that table in Post #6 and then published it on the RAF website needs a smack. Conningsby indeed - and 5 times too!

:mad:

[Geehovah]

Thats an interesting picture with 2 outboard tanks and a gun. Quite rare to fly that fit as most gunnery was conducted clean wing. My guess would be the QWIs doing air-to-air gunnery off the East Coast.

[Craig Geno]

I was on 3 squadron 228 OCU for 4 1/2 years, and it was split into 3 squadrons. 1 Squadron were the Flight Sim, 2 Squadron were the Aircrew and 3 Squadron were the Ground Crew.

[Geehovah]

Trying again:

1 Sqn Sim, 2 Sqn Flying and 3 Sqn Groundcrew

[izod tester]

I was on 3 Sqn 228 OCU from 1976 to 1979. It was just as Geehovah said.

[Tashengurt]

Every day on my way to work I pass a battered old Passat with the reg K228OCU. Always makes me chuckle.
I don't get out all that much though.:hmm:

[soddim]

Now here's a challenge from that era - does anybody remember Horace the aircrew coach driver - always there ready to pick you up from debrief and run you back to the coffee bar courtesy of his multi-band radio.

Guess he must be pushing up the daisys now - does anybody know?

[Geehovah]

I certainly do remember Horace. A true gentleman. And here's the spotter coming out, I do believe it was a Bedford crew bus. Given how old we are now I suspect he's long gone.

[E L Whisty]

Horace died in the mid 70's. His funeral was attended by many Phantom aviators and groundcrew alike. He was a very kind man - especially to under confident young student aircrew. Some of the aircrew flew from far afield for Horace's send off.

I returned to the OCU for a visit some 3 years after joining my first squadron. Horace met me at the aeroplane, greeted me by name and asked after many others by name.

A lovely guy - absolutely dedicated to helping everybody he possibly could.

I often raise a glass to Horace and shall do tonight.

[soddim]

Thankyou for the update - he was indeed a fine character - sad that I was out of the country at the time of his moving on for otherwise I would have been there to pay my respects

[thing]

Crikey, it's 36 years since I was a techie on 228 and I remember Horace. A true gentleman in every sense of the word. Talking about the 'older end' (of which I'm very much one myself now!) what happened to Arthur Vine, QFI on 228? I always remember strapping Arthur in when some Luftwaffe F4's were taxying in and Arthur said in his laconic way 'Look at that, I was shooting at those buggers 30 years ago'.

[Dave Roome]

Talking of Arthur Vine, he and I diverted to Kinloss sometime around 1977 (in the days when we still flew in the Torso Harness). When we got to the Officers' Mess, Arthur insisted we both went straight into the Bar, still in goon suits, torso harnesses and with bone domes. I couldn't dissuade him and wondered his reasoning until, in a loud voice he asked the general question "Is Arthur Vine here?" I thought he'd finally flipped, but the response came "He's in the Scruffs Bar" to which Arthur (the dad) said "Tell him his Dad's here, would you?"

Arthur Vine (son) was a maritime pilot at Kinloss!

[fantom]

Thats an interesting picture with 2 outboard tanks and a gun. Quite rare to fly that fit as most gunnery was conducted clean wing. My guess would be the QWIs doing air-to-air gunnery off the East Coast.


We always flew with the SF tanks if we had a gun (long, long ago on 31).

Also, no-one has mentioned the figure on the patch; he's Spook.

[nipva]

Thats an interesting picture with 2 outboard tanks and a gun. Quite rare to fly that fit as most gunnery was conducted clean wing. My guess would be the QWIs doing air-to-air gunnery off the East Coast.
As I recall, this was the standard fit for 19 & 92 at Wildenrath. The gun only came off for ACMI.

[1.3VStall]

Ah, Arthur Vine a true gent!. We always tried to give him the air tests because we always got a completely dispassionate and accurate account of what the aircraft was doing.

[Fitter2]

Whoever drew up that table in Post #6 and then published it on the RAF website needs a smack
Full of other duff gen too. There were 64 Sqdn. Javelins in Tengah (and Kuching, Labuan) in May 1964, to add to the 60 Sqdn. collection.

[shedhead]

Geno got it right, was on 3 sqdn from 78-82.( seem to remember tying you to a tree Geno!)

[Craig Geno]

I can't remember being tied to a tree shedhead, can you be more specific on your name.

[Geehovah]

As I recall, this was the standard fit for 19 & 92 at Wildenrath. The gun only came off for ACMI.

True. We flew with the gun as standard fit in RAFG but not in UK. Tanks off for ACMI and gunnery in Cyprus and normally in UK if the airspace was close enough. Dropping the gun for ACMI gave a tad extra help against the lower wing loaders. The QWIs needed longer to talk.........................

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/HASLoop.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/92AKRwithchute.jpg

[Phantom fixer]

Hi Rhino11, A couple of folk have already mentioned the origins of the 3 sqn 228 OCU. I myself was in 3 sqn 228 OCU from 75 to 78. (I worked in the hanger). 64 Sqn was their reserve number in time of war. I do have a sqn photo from 1976. Hope this works. 1st time on this forum
http://www.phantomreunion.talktalk.net/images/gallery/sqn/3sqnlge.gif

[Dominator2]

Some one tells me that in the days of 228 training both Mud Movers and Air Defenders 1 Sqn was the dark side and 2 Sqn was where the Fighter Mates were trained. Any thoughts.

[soddim]

228 OCU 1 Sqn did conversion, ACT and AD and 2 Sqn did Recce and GA.