waterford ptc.ya right

[wardie31]

:mad:
hi all
i went to an open day at waterford pilot training college last week,great sales pitch up there,to be fair most of the guys there just started shaving last week so they were not going to ask the lady doing the presenation any hard questions.
she started by saying that 98% of students at waterford get a job with one of the airlines within 2 months of finishing the course,what of the other 2% you may ask instructors of course.
when i asked her if this could be true low hour guys getting the jobs ahead of guys with 1500hrs,yes of course they do because waterford ptc is so well connected.
any one out there believe this plus feedback from anyone who attended waterford.:eek:

[nick14]

well iv never heard of them before, thats interesting for a school that is so "well connected"

Considering that the other schools, OAA, FTE and CTC being the biggest claim 98% within 6 months i somewhat doubt that 98% get a job within 2 months unless they have 5 people graduate per month:}

I suppose its possible, id be dubious but thats me.

good luck
Nick

[deltaxray]

Im a student of PTC and i do have to agree that the sales pitch is a good one. As regards getting a job within 2 months, they're not far off it. They have connections with Aer arann, Flybe, ryanair, aerlingus, futuragael and a few others. Basically what happens is the airlines come to them looking for the best of the best and PTC recommend you for an interview if you fit into this category. Your not gauranteed a job but to be honest, most people i know who went before me were offered jobs quite quickly. However, if you want to be recomended to an airline by PTC i would work my a** off because of the volume of students out there.
If you have questions about PTC, just pm me. Ive been through and am still going through the highs and lows of the college.:}

[Shauna]

how do u find it? im still juggling all the possibilities at the minute....waterford being that bit closer to home than england/aus!

Realistically, how much would i need to complete the course and live comfortably?

[HomerJay]

95,000 euro for an interview. No thanks.

[drag king]

They have connections with Aer arann, Flybe, ryanair, aerlingus, futuragael and a few others. Basically what happens is the airlines come to them looking for the best of the best and PTC recommend you for an interview if you fit into this category.

Do they? Or is just AerArann, FR, FlyBE (not Flybe...if u mispell the name of your potential company I can GUARANTEE you WON'T get a job with them...:E) doing they roadshow as they do in ANY other FTO, OAT, FTE to name a few?

Ive been through and am still going through the highs and lows of the college.

Elaborate pls, sounds interesting...:{


95,000 euro for an interview. No thanks.

Now we're talking business!

DK ;)

[Tootles the Taxi]

drag king

FlyBE (not Flybe...if u mispell the name of your potential company I can GUARANTEE you WON'T get a job with them...:E)

Do you mean flybe? Perhaps you should research their website for the approved branding. Either way, the spelling is accurate :}.

[drag king]

Do you mean flybe?

No dear cabbie, I mean FlyBE or Flybe as per website...:E Pls, note that NOWHERE (apart from a/c livery) their press release spells "flybe". Take a second look.

Regards

DK ;)

[UncleNobby]

Do the jobs people get require you to pay for your own type? It's not as much risk for an employer to say go off and get your type and the job is yours - don't get it you eat the costs. I could be way off of course I'm 3,500 miles away!

[speedrestriction]

Individual graduates of a flight school obtaining employment with any given airline does not mean that the school has "connections" with the airline. If you want to work for someone like flybe there are enough ways to get through the front door via "sponsored" courses.

[deltaxray]

Now people, lets not start a thread about how to spell names of airlines.:} (Eventhough im right:E). The topic at hand is PTC. Yes it is an expensive course and all that but you do get some advantages. Your in the south east of ireland which gets the best weather which is a plus for those of you who dont want to move abroad right away. You get a great level of training from FSI when you go to do your ppl and hour building. In my experience, one of the best schools around. (I studied elsewhere for my ppl before i came to waterford)

Yes there are enough ways to get into an airline but dont you think it helps if your recommended by a training facility?:}

[drag king]

Your in the south east of ireland which gets the best weather which is a plus for those of you who dont want to move abroad right away.

Would you mind stop QUOTING PTC's website? If I need some propaganda I can help myself...:E

WX in EIWT sucks as everywhere else in IRL, if you have to do a 0 to CPL there it will cost you a fortune and you might have to retire before you reach it. PTC mated with FSA for a good reason...

In my experience, one of the best schools around. (I studied elsewhere for my ppl before i came to waterford)

Wow, that's life experience indeed! However I've been into 5 (five) different places both in JAA land and across the pond I think I can judge from a fairly better prospective. The truth is that ALL school are the same: they ALL say THEY are the BEST!

Yes there are enough ways to get into an airline but dont you think it helps if your recommended by a training facility?

Yes but bare in mind that they MIGHT guarantee you an INTERVIEW, not a JOB. In other words a very nice marketing tool, nothing else!

Best wishes for you flying in the "sunny" south-east...I'll be watching it closely...:E

DK ;)

[deltaxray]

:mad:Fine....we can sit here all day arguing about how one school is better than the other but lets face it........no matter what school you go to theres gonna be problems and people like you drag king, are the type to whine about it. In the end, choose whatever school you want but the grass is still gonna seem greener on the other side.

[Zyox]

Well said deltaxray.
Need to just grit the teeth, pick somewhere that isn't a shack that could close down in a few weeks and has good instructors that will teach you good things about flying, and literally just get it done.

5 years down the road in whatever job you won't be looking back thinking "God I wish i went to Oxford instead of PTC" or somesuch.

[deltaxray]

Exactly:ok:

[HomerJay]

Plus interest

Plus the MCC costs before you go for the interview, I doubt that comes up too much during the sales pitch.

[pt_flyer]

Homerjay is correct. While browsing their propaganda nothing is said about the extra cost of the MCC. When I downloaded the brochure and went to the last page of 13 pages, it had what is not included in the price (one of which was MCC). It does not say what simulator, hours and price of this MCC. I guess you get to the end of your training and you have to pay for the MCC with the company they want to do it with (Parc Aviation).

Can anyone tell me the price of a quality MCC course? I want to add that to the €85K (that includes interview;)).

:ok:

[Zyox]

Sure the MCC is nothing to do with PTC. They give you your fATPL, if you sign up for that course. The MCC is a seperate certificate that airlines want you to have. PTC recommend you doing it in Parc and it's 8 days long I think and costs 5k if I recall correctly. You pay this to Parc, not PTC.

Look I'm not some pro-PTC head, I just don't like the instant attacks of negativity that are sometimes rife around here and do nothing but make people feel bad and put off.

Yes, they're a flight school, and they market like whores on that website and will tell you aaaall you want to hear to get that 85k off you... but lads this is a flight school. What the flip do you expect? :ugh: Caveat emptor applies nowhere more importantly than when learning to fly. Problem is most learn this after they've signed up somewhere. Myself guilty as charged too :}

Gets ya flyin. Gets ya done.

[HomerJay]

Sure the MCC is nothing to do with PTC. They give you your fATPL, if you sign up for that course. The MCC is a seperate certificate that airlines want you to have. PTC recommend you doing it in Parc and it's 8 days long I think and costs 5k if I recall correctly. You pay this to Parc, not PTC.

Look I'm not some pro-PTC head, I just don't like the instant attacks of negativity that are sometimes rife around here and do nothing but make people feel bad and put off.

They give you the frozen atpl alright, but the main incentive is that they get you the interview, which is not worth doing until you do the MCC course.

I see your point but I just get annoyed at the money they are asking for. I also know someone in the middle of the training and he was baffled as to how they could justify the price. It was 75k when I first enquired and when I followed up a few months later it was 85k. :mad:

You're right as far as the marketing goes though, all schools are as bad as each other....but there's better options out there than PTC and their EIGHTY FIVE THOUSAND EURO.

[fireoff]

Hi there. I was at the PTC open day aswell and thought it was excellent. I still have not done my leaving cert but am more than likely going to train to be an airline pilot. Course a bit pricey but sure they all are. A good day and well worth getting up at 5:45:D:D

[nickmanl]

If you are spending that amount of money don't just assume they are all pricey! Do your research at other flightschools as well. PTC is very, very expensive for what they offer, which is essentially modular dressed up as integrated. You can do modular cheaper elsewhere! The PTC open day is not that excellent compared to others and you must attend other flightschools to get a feel of what else is on offer.

[drag king]

Need to just grit the teeth, pick somewhere that isn't a shack that could close down in a few weeks and has good instructors that will teach you good things about flying, and literally just get it done.Sure, all it matters is surviving ain't? Well done mate, let's tackle everything with this attitude and you will go far. FI's are great chaps over there but that's not all. Your list of priorities is rather poor and incomplete. There are loads of other things that need to be considered and most of the wannabees don't know much about it because they pay more attention to the shinning fliers they handle you at the open day than to former student's opinions. Who is the next in line you'd like to survive at? Ryanair...? :E

5 years down the road in whatever job you won't be looking back thinking "God I wish i went to Oxford instead of PTC" or somesuch.No clue, I didn't go neither to PTC or OAT but I probably went to SOMESUCH FLYING TRAINING. Let's hope that in 5 yrs you are gonna be into a JOB that you haven't paid for (i.e. FR) and not into another mortgage to pay further "training"...:E

no matter what school you go to theres gonna be problems and people like you drag king, are the type to whine about it. In the end, choose whatever school you want but the grass is still gonna seem greener on the other side.You obviously don't have a fu....g clue of what message I am trying to pass you. Well, don't say you haven't been warned...:E

Hi there. I was at the PTC open day aswell and thought it was excellent. I still have not done my leaving cert but am more than likely going to train to be an airline pilot. Course a bit pricey but sure they all are. A good day and well worth getting up at 5:45TAKE IT EASY MATE!!! There is plenty of time. Just don't forget the chequebook!

You're right as far as the marketing goes though, all schools are as bad as each other....but there's better options out there than PTC and their EIGHTY FIVE THOUSAND EURO. If you are spending that amount of money don't just assume they are all pricey! Do your research at other flightschools as well. PTC is very, very expensive for what they offer, which is essentially modular dressed up as integrated. You can do modular cheaper elsewhere! The PTC open day is not that excellent compared to others and you must attend other flightschools to get a feel of what else is on offer.I knew there must be some smart ones out there! Well said kids! :ok:

Best wishes

DK ;)

[deltaxray]

Dragking....if you did'nt go to PTC then why are you here telling people its a bad idea. Let the people who are doing/have done the course give some advice. Your just speculating and repeating rumours that have been spread. Ill be the first to stand up and say that PTC is'nt the best but to be honest, you have no experience with them. (Sorry if i offend.....im in a bad mood with the atpl's:})

[drag king]

Dragking....if you did'nt go to PTC then why are you here telling people its a bad idea. Let the people who are doing/have done the course give some advice. Your just speculating and repeating rumours that have been spread. Ill be the first to stand up and say that PTC is'nt the best but to be honest, you have no experience with them.Oh dear, dear me...:ugh::ugh::ugh:

You rush to keybord too quickly kid! Think FAST, but TALK slowly and more than that THINK FIRST, ACT AFTER!

(Sorry if i offend.....im in a bad mood with the atpl's:})Why? PTC isn't backing you up hard enough? Remember to tell them that you are (among other things) also a CUSTOMER...:E

Please, avoid reminding me that it is a distance-learning course, I know that already but it means NOTHING apart saving money on staff/resources by PTC!

Regards

DK ;)

[Zyox]

*counts to ten*

http://www.geocities.com/sunj_s/DoNotFeedTroll.jpg

*walks away*

[jiffajaffa]

Quote

"They have connections with Aer arann, Flybe, ryanair, aerlingus,futuragael and a few others"


Is this what PTC tell you before you hand over the 95,000 euro required for the course??:ooh:

I dont understand the training costs in 95,000 euro and you dont even get an MCC! For the same price maybe 5000 above I have completed all my training (Modular) and MCC all here in Ireland and thats INCLUDING the money put away for a type rating with an airline!!

Yes PTC have an appealing website etc but how much different are they to other MODULAR schools?? I have done my training in Cork all with Instructors who are airline pilots or experienced and the standard of training was excellent and for a fraction of the price!

Im not saying there is anything at fault with PTC and its college however people who are under the impression they are going to get an airline job because they pay 95,000 euro are very naive! remember people there is no guarantees! I think people need to shop around a bit more before throwing away alot of money on an outrageously expensive course!!

:ok:

[Sky Conductor]

Drag king..wheres EIWT? Think before you type your waffle!

[allanon1980]

Atlantic offer 0-atpl(f) for around 54k. MCC not included.

[drag king]

Drag king..wheres EIWT?

I beg your pardon sir, I meant EIWF...

As far as EIWT is concerned YOU tell me where it is, you dumbass!

What does it mean "wheres"?

As someone said...

Think before you type your waffle!

No further comments...:E

Enjoy rainy IRL, windy EIWF, crowded EIWT, storm-battered EICK and wherever your FI is gonna take you. You don't sound smart enough to manage to go anywhere solo.

I am going back to my Jepp's Airport Directory...:E

DK ;)

[Keygrip]

Keep it friendly, children.

[deltaxray]

Well dragking...........as i see it theres no point in being a fair weather pilot as yourself and befor you start saying that i did some flying in florida, you should know i got my ppl in Irl:}

[drag king]

as i see it theres no point in being a fair weather pilot as yourself and befor you start saying that i did some flying in florida, you should know i got my ppl in Irl

I wonder why I am still replying to you. It feels like...:ugh: Nevermind.

keep posting propaganda on behalf of PTC kid, you might end up on the wall-of-fame or in one of their glossy flyers if not on the website...Me, I got my moments of glory already!!! :E

Make sure you do a nice job, don't waste dad's money OK?

For those interested in this thread's subject, well...I think you might have figured out by now!

Don't forget where your VRPs are around EIWF, just in case WX catches you out!!! :E

DK ;)

[MarkColeman]

edit edit x

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
DragKing is, for the most part, quite right.PTC is very,very overpriced for Modular pretending to be integrated.It most certainly is possible to get all the ratings and the MCC for much less than E95K.EIWF is a nice airport to fly out of but they are as subject to Ireland's weather as anyone else.PTC are also suffering from a high turnover of instructors, just like the other schools.PTC's claims need to be taken with a pinch of salt, just like the claims of every other school.As for PTCs claims to be "connected" to airlines, well, that's the good old Irish version of the Old Pals' Act.Hypothically speaking, of course,it "helps" your application to do your MCC at a certain MCC supplier to get a sim-check at a certain Irish airline, who might possibly have senior personnel who might possibly share the ownership of the MCC supplier.Possibly.Hypothetically speaking, of course.Just like it is alleged in bars frequented by pilots that a certain Irish airline favours pilots who wear brown shoes, supplied to members of a very exclusive flying club.Possibly.
This is Ireland,for ****'s sake.It's a banana republic with no sunshine(except in the Sunny South-East, of course)
regards
TDD

[jiffajaffa]

I agree with TDD on this one regarding PTC,

I think people need to see whats on offer before deciding to spend alot of money on a course that is very similar to any other MODULAR courses in Ireland and the rest of Europe, I think PTC are aiming for a customer base of students who have just finished there leaving cert etc and are basically ripping people off as explained earlier compared to other schools, for the sake of 40k I think its worth going away and sorting your own training out, yes there is a bit more involved in it but who cares its 40k in your pocket rather than PTC!!

Lets face it people Ryanair taking on 400+ cadets in 2008, Aer Arann recruiting as well along with alot of other airlines in Europe so PTC or no PTC the jobs are out there no matter what school your in and everyone is in with a chance so don't let PTC and there "connections" for 95k lead you astray from the simple fact that there course is a rip off!!

If someone can come on this thread and prove me wrong about PTC and there training costs then I shall stand corrected! :=

[drag king]

Real nice dragking.....that chip on your shoulder must have a chip on its shoulder i reckon.You must have a VERY little sense-of-humor, dear! :E

Lets face it people Ryanair taking on 400+ cadets in 2008, Aer Arann recruiting as well along with alot of other airlines in Europe so PTC or no PTC the jobs are out there no matter what school your in and everyone is in with a chance so don't let PTC and there "connections" for 95k lead you astray from the simple fact that there course is a rip off!!There was no need to mention it, however...WELL SAID!

for the sake of 40k I think its worth going away and sorting your own training out, yes there is a bit more involved in it but who cares its 40k in your pocket rather than PTC!!That's why I said go and fetch (former) students from others FTO (no matter how blasoned) and find out how they have settled. Then if you still want to burn 100k check out the other top schools and find out that for the same figure they include MCC, better fleet, they are located in better WX-regions (as someone insinuated not that VMC matter to me but fast-paced training does...:E) and so on. They also have "connections" in case you need.

Regards

DK ;)

[deltaxray]

Well dragking. Im starting to get tired of this myself but i'll say it once again. Im not promoting nor am i bashing PTC. Im giving my opinion about the college that i train at. Im sure that was what the thread was about was it not?:} And just so you know, ive saved MY money for the course. If daddy had the money for it i wouldnt be fighting with the bankman everytime i need money.

[Captain Planet]

EIWT is Weston.


Play fair children.

CP.:ok:

[pilotbear]

If PTC are so bad why have Flight Safety International, the biggest and most reputable flight training organisation in the world who, can have their pick of who to work with, associated themselves with PTC to form PTC Florida. This was done so the weather will no longer be a factor.
Drag King or is it Queen? haven't you got anything more constructive to do with your time? If you pay peanuts you get monkeys, just hours in the log book does not get you jobs....proper, monitered training, with the associated knowledge does. PTC does have a reputation with the recruiters of the airlines mentioned for producing the above average student and they do ask for recommendations.
It is very hard work at PTC, you are tested all the time and if you are a whingy f***w*t you wouldn't get through anyway. Don't you realise Drag KING (queen) what an arse you are making of yourself. If there is something to be genuinely criticised with a company a few well chosen words usually does the trick whereas your points are lost as it becomes obvious you have an obsessional axe to grind.:ugh:

As for instructors, two also fly private jets and one turbine in the real world. The turnover is nothing like as high as in most schools.

Aviation is an unstable business and things do go wrong, Fuel prices go up aircraft go tech, mistakes are made, wx is bad, so what? go and work in Tesco if you don't like it.:ok:

keygrip: how ya doing:ok:

[jiffajaffa]

they do ask for recommendations.


A requirement for your assesment with the airlines is a letter of recommendation from your training provider.

Other schools in Ireland have just as many connections with airlines but don't hike up there prices by 50%.. as for flight safety international, they associate themselves with training providers to do exactly what there name says FLIGHT SAFETY and of course a fee is involved in this association..... so lads and lasses the fee of 95k is still?

UNJUSTIFIED!


It is very hard work at PTC, you are tested all the time

Im afraid mate its the same everywhere you go not just PTC.

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys, just hours in the log book does not get you jobs....proper, monitered training, with the associated knowledge does

Are you saying that paying 56k is peanuts?:=

because if it is, there is alot of us monkeys getting jobs in the airlines so next time you walk into a flight deck make sure there is no monkeys flying the airplanes! and of course if there not monkeys then they must have been trained in PTC.

[drag king]

Drag King or is it Queen? Tastes are tastes my dear (bear). I am an opend-minded person with no prejudices...:E

haven't you got anything more constructive to do with your time?Pleanty, beside flying PROFESSIONALLY but too many to mention and it's not your business anyway.

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys, just hours in the log book does not get you jobs....proper, monitered training, with the associated knowledge does.True, but just the 1st bit. Everything else is PURE propaganda, the same heard over and over 1000 times. PTC does NOTHING more that a JAA/FTO is expected to do BY LAW and you are still paying way too much for what you get! You obviously either work or train there...:E

PTC does have a reputation with the recruiters of the airlines mentioned for producing the above average student and they do ask for recommendations.More propaganda here. So operators that got students from flying clubs and modular training are gambling with their passenger's lives because they hire at or below average pilots? What's "average" there BTW...:E

It is very hard work at PTC, you are tested all the time and if you are a whingy f***w*t you wouldn't get through anyway.So it WAS for me and for ANYONE that believes in what he/she does. Keep this crap for someone else. What is the rule is PAY, SHUT THE F...K UP and you will be REWARDED with your interview? Smart move dude! Let's go on, FR & C. love people like you, with this attitude especially when it comes to the point of lowering T&C's. I think I know who gave you this lecture...:E Don't forget to ask permission to go to the toilet sometimes.

f there is something to be genuinely criticised with a company a few well chosen words usually does the trick whereas your points are lost as it becomes obvious you have an obsessional axe to grindIt was said more than once dude but it seems you didn't notice. Anyway...my axe is sharpe as a razor but it's inactive for the time being so relax.

Over & Out

DK ;)

PS: As for instructors, two also fly private jets and one turbine in the real world. The turnover is nothing like as high as in most schools.So do I.

[pilotbear]

of course you do:D

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
My personal experience of PTC is as follows: I email them about doing an Instructor's rating.No answer.I email them three more times;still no answer.I phone them and get handed around and eventually get to talk to one of the admin staff.I get vague answers and nothing definite.A month later, I'm in Waterford and call into the office.After some time being left unattended, despite the presence of at least three persons in the office,I eventually get to speak to an instructor,who gives me a tour and eventually admits that they have trouble fitting in walk-in potential candidates/price for course not yet determined/lack of aircraft/lack of instructors,etc,etc, I am allowed to leave.No British or American school would, in my experience, allow potential business to walk away so easily.Result: I take my business elsewhere and I wouldn't go near them with a barge pole. Somebody needs to take the employees in hand and teach them to answer emails/phonecalls properly and make an effort in customer relations.
regards
TDD

[TolTol]

I wouldn't go near them with a barge pole

Best advice here. People, they're probably not the worst flight school around in terms of training, but believe me, when it comes to management and business ethics they a lot to be desired.

As for their contacts with airlines, what a joke! Parc Aviation which runs the MCC that PTC recommends, probably does have the contacts and is well worth going there. But thats nothing to do with PTC.

[jiffajaffa]

PTC have only interest in people who wanna spend 95,000, im sure if you phoned them saying you had the cash or called in with a check your calls and replies would't fall on deaf ears!

I agree with toltol, Parc Aviation run a great MCC the instructors are top notch all very experienced ex-airline pilots and I would highly recommend it to anyone doing an MCC.

[Pjlot]

Hi guys

I think PTC has some serious managment and organisation issues. I visited them last year and booked the skills test. The computerised test was supposed to start at 10am. I was suppose to be in the air between 1 and 2pm for skills test. I was fobbed off when i arrived and told there was an hour delay. I accepted that but the delay grew and so did the lies.

Finally I sat the test at 3pm very frustrated and annoyed by the events and unprofessional behavior! Nothing was explained about the aptitude test and what was said sounded like it was being read from text. I asked a question and the answer i was given was "excellent thats great & good luck" which proves that particular member of staff neither had interest my question or their own professionalism. I was interupted no less than 9 times during the test by staff (one in particular 3 times) barging into the room with students then wasting my exam time with lenghty apologies. I went up in the air for the skills test and 7pm, this was very relaxing and i loved it. The stress and frustration of the day disappeared.

I arrived back at the briefing room and found out the reason i was delayed was another potential student had flown in that morning and needed to fly out on the last flight that evening. He unknowingly was given my time. The reason for this was he was interested in the integrated route where as i had stated from the onset i was interested in the modular route. I would not have been spending as much money up front. I made it clear to PTC that i was interested in the modular route when i first called in to the college. While in the briefing room after my skills test I was told that they did not offer a modular route in Waterford but they could arrange it in conjunction with another school. (PTC appears to be a modular course dressed up as integrated) I have never recieved another call from them. They could have told me before i booked the exam day that they did not offer a so called modular route through waterford, but they choose to tell me when they had my money and i had finished the days exams. In my mind this knowingly mislead me! I wasted my money with an organisation that did not offer the training i was looking for.

Anyone reading this can judge it for themselves. Before i booked the exam with them i did my research about PTC. I read alot of unfavourable reports from past students etc. I also read some reports defending PTC. I decided to give them the benifit of the doubt and to see for myself.

What is my opinion of PTC now, based on my experience?
I feel that the people operating on front line will tell you what you want to hear! That includes them knowingly giving you wrong and misleading information. I don't know if senior managment are aware (or care) how they are being represented by their junior front line staff, but what i witnessed and experienced on the day left alot to be desired. It all had an air of imaturity, unprofessionalism and lack of interest.

Apologies for the long text, its not a fraction of what went on the day. But my honest advice to anyone thinking of spending 95k on training is to seriously look else where and weigh up all your options. If you are the type of person who doesn't mind wasting money and using it to pay for other peoples mistakes then go for it.

After all that i think the instructor who brought me up in the aircraft and conducted my skills test was excellent and a credit to the organisation. I believe he was called in at short notice but was extremely professional in how he presented himself and theorganisation. Pity the front line representatives are letting people like him down.

Best of luck to all

[dave1975]

hey deltaxray, i am thinking of atttending ptc later this year , but i have been reading both good and bad info on this site. whats your honest opinion of them? the ground school, facilities, and the chances of getting a job after?

[deltaxray]

I sent you a private message dave:ok:

[User_Irish88]

People interested in PTC all i can say is NO, quick to take the money out of your pocket slow at just about everything else. PPL is left up to student which is ok as its just a PPL, then you go on to ATPL's where you can learn from an instructor who still hasnt passed his/her atpl's. CPL not bad, alot of work but decent, IR is the only good thing at PTC, but then again very expensive.
The Interview at the end of your training is also very dodgey, well actually never heard of anyone getting through that way, all the people i know of had to search for jobs themselves.
Try checking out, schools in states, and then conversions in europe with oxford or a school like that, or go to south africa and do all your licences there, quick, well priced and they also have "Good Connections".

Just for the question that was asked before "Why would FSI in vero beach be connected with a school if it wasn't up to their standards" - well i can tell you that the deal with FSI looks like it is near breaking point, rumours of moving to a school in Melbourne Australia! Bit far just for ppl and hour building dont u think?

[Keygrip]

Just for the question that was asked before "Why would FSI in vero beach be connected with a school if it wasn't up to their standards" - well i can tell you that the deal with FSI looks like it is near breaking point, rumours of moving to a school in Melbourne Australia! Bit far just for ppl and hour building dont u think?

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

It was actually found to be the case that FSI was not up to PTC(FL) standards.

[User_Irish88]

Hey thanks for the reply, well i can say that from my experiance Flight Safety was very professional, and I thought that their capability as an FTO exceeded that of PTC.
Thanks again for the reply :ok:

[a797]

What a joke. The standards of professionalism and quality of training/facilities at flight safety are a thousand times higher than those of PTC. Every single student that has graduated from the 0-atpl course will tell you that.

FSI focuses on the student, PTC focuses on how much money they can extract from the student.

[Keygrip]

a797 - a delightfully moving tribute to FSI.

If you had any idea what you were talking about it may be of some value - but fear not, as I've always been a believer that everybody is entitled to their own stiupid opinion - and that includes you and yours.

I've seen, first hand (and been directly involved with), the training and the attitude of FSI, I've seen first hand (and been directly involved with), the training and the attitude of PTC (FL).

I'm neither discussing, nor have much interest, in the finance or the marketing (in this particular conversation), I'm talking purely the training and the standards required or achieved.

FSI could not stand up to the training requirements of either PTC (FL) or the IAA.

Indeed, I'm not aware of any one FAA "Academy", that has been able to sustain a JAA programme. There's no saying, of course, that the changes brought about by PTC(FL) will improve that situation - but at least they are trying, and I *know* it's not for their bottom line profit margin that they are doing it.

It's a long and involved story - there is *MUCH* more to it than face value.

It wasn't FSI that didn't want to hang on to PTC(FL)...work it out.

PTC (Waterford) - which is what this thread started about - *may* be a completely different story - I have *zero* experience of them so no comment - but somebody changed the messages to include Vero Beach - and now, I know what I'm talking about.

[a797]

If you had any idea what you were talking about it may be of some value - but fear not, as I've always been a believer that everybody is entitled to their own stiupid opinion - and that includes you and yours.

Actually i do know what im talking about, ive had the misfortune of being messed around by ptc like most other students.

I've seen, first hand (and been directly involved with), the training and the attitude of FSI, I've seen first hand (and been directly involved with), the training and the attitude of PTC (FL).

Really? That contradicts what you said yesterday on another thread about ptc as follows:-

And, NO, unfortuantely I am not connected with PTC in any way - before you start squealing that line, too.

So i'm a little bit confused, were you lying when you wrote that or were you lying above when you said you are directly involved with PTC?

My stupid opinions are based on first hand experience of both organisations, and me and every single other student will tell you the level of training at FSI is far superior to the level of training at PTC. At FSI we received ground school from retired airline captains, at PTC groundschool was receieved from 200 hr conversions who had not completed the exams themselves. I dont know much about PTC fl, but i know how the company works, so find it hard to believe that PTC florida is of a higher standard than FSI. I could be wrong but i would truly be surprised.

And before you throw the accusations that im just a bitter student who couldnt handle the pace of the course and is blaming everyone else for my shortcomings - i got first time passes in every single written exam, oral exam, mock flight test and flight test on the course. I know what im talking about.

[Keygrip]

Somehow, I just knew you would bite. "Lol".

With regard to

So i'm a little bit confused, were you lying when you wrote that or were you lying above when you said you are directly involved with PTC?


I say again, unfortunately, I am not involved with THE COMPANY, yet I AM involved with their training and standards. It's none of your business as to how, or why - but it's true.

Why did you have to do your groundschool twice?

I was just thinking aloud, please, don't bother answering, as I really don't care.

<<Edit: Scruffy typo>>

[a797]

I say again, unfortunately, I am not involved with THE COMPANY, yet I AM involved with their training and standards.

Ah ok, so you were lying on the other thread then, cheers for clearing that one up :ok:

[oneinthemirror]

Keygrip,

with regard to your comment about a797 having to do his groundschool twice, i think he was talking about the ppl groundschool he received from FSI and the cpl groundschool he endured in PTC.

[Matthew Adams]

Dont give them your email address........... as i did once and cant stop receiving spam mail about sex and viagra pills etc.

PLEASE BE-AWARE.

"o yes they are to expensive for what the offer"


Good luck

TWW

I'll echo that, don't email them, they must have viruses, because I had a pretty new email address, and as soon as I emailed them nothing but spam.

[Captain Planet]

User Irish88 said :

well i can tell you that the deal with FSI looks like it is near breaking point, rumours of moving to a school in Melbourne Australia! Bit far just for ppl and hour building dont u think?

There's also a Melbourne in Florida, about an hour and a half north of their current setup in Vero Beach. I think they maybe moving there, not Australia. Now that would be ridiculous even for PTC's illogical thought patterns.

Cheerio,
CP.

[oneinthemirror]

shamrock6065:
Don't waste your time or your money with PTC, nothing good will come of it.

what? are you crazy? dont you know that 98% of PTC graduates get hired within 2 months? that they have a 98% first time pass rate?

this is of course in no small part due to their "extensive fleet of Piper Seminole aircraft" (4 and a half last i heard) and their fantastic student support network who never return your calls...

better stop in case this thread mysteriously disappears...

[purpleplane]

I'm a past student of PTC..... they are a joke. flight safety was amazing great planes, instructors etc and then you get back to waterford, the sunny south east... took way too long to get the last part done (CPL IR) with weather/ lack of planes, lack of instructors, lack of organisation.
the instructors are the only thing ptc has going for them and most of them are leaving. I'm amazed the planes are still in the air, and the office staff are just crazy! problems with money ie. they wanted more. and more. and more. ended up finishing the course on bad terms over money, and i'm not the only one. Have secured a job on my own terms with no help from ptc. actually since I finished the only contact I've had is an angry email and letter for money. money i don't owe them!!
Don't buy the act. go to florida, do it yourself and come back and do a conversion. (anyone doing a conversion got preference over the rest of us! god knows why since we all paid the same money)

From someone who has done it.....DONT DO IT.

[oneinthemirror]

funny i did notice that but i just put it down to God's Will. do you mean to say there might be a connection between the two? something to do with money maybe?

apparently they got another seminole recently but they nearly lost another one last week after somebody went flying with no AVGAS. once again the IAA are investigating!

[Captain Planet]

Ah yes, they declared a mayday somewhere near Hook Head apparently. I think they faniced a spot of fishing.

CP.

[wayupthere]

somebody went flying with no AVGAS

Hahaha, cost cutting PTC style!! :}

[oneinthemirror]

Hahaha, cost cutting PTC style!!

thing is, youre actually right. PTC get charged every time the fuel truck is called over, so it saves them a few bob not to refuel after every flight.

however, seeing as there is only 5.5 hours endurance in the seminole, and each slot is 2 hours flying, it would seem prudent to refuel after the second flight!

another thing, from past experience i know that with 2 people in the front seats and no ballast or pax, those seminoles are fairly close to the forward cg limit with full fuel, and the arm moves further forward the more fuel you burn, so im guessing the iaa may have something to say about their weight and balance sheet, as well as the whole lack of any fuel reserves, or any fuel at all for that matter!

[LD Max]

One of the privileges of anonymity in a forum such as this, is how it affords participants the ability to speak honestly and truthfully about heartfealt issues, without fear of sanction or repercussion. Unfortunately it also affords certain individuals the freedom to talk complete and utter BULL****.

So along with anonymity comes the responsibility for the sender to kindly confine their comments to things they know something about, and for the receiver to use some common sense and intelligence in filtering the information before responding.

Having sat on the sidelines of this conversation for a while, I feel compelled to set a few things straight about PTC. Due to the layout of this thread, I will do this in reverse chronological order.

PTC get charged every time the fuel truck is called over, so it saves them a few bob not to refuel after every flight

Can anyone else see the flaw in this statement or is it just me? Spend more time studying your performance and endurance charts since your Oral Exam may prove problematic with statements like this.

...with 2 people in the front seats and no ballast or pax, those seminoles are fairly close to the forward cg limit with full fuel, and the arm moves further forward the more fuel you burn, so im guessing the iaa may have something to say about their weight and balance sheet, as well as the whole lack of any fuel reserves, or any fuel at all for that matter!

This, of course, is aircraft specific, but taking the least 'favourable' aircraft in the fleet, I suggest you get the envelope in front of you and draw this out.

Less Fuel is better from a Weight and Balance point of view, not worse as you suggest.

Needless to say, on the flight in question, neither that aircraft's characteristic BEM, nor it's loading were limiting factors!

cost cutting PTC style!!

It is not for me to speculate how this happened. But those who were involved would find it deeply offensive to suggest that there was any *intention* of departing with insufficient fuel. PTC have taken this incident *very* seriously indeed and an AAIU (not IAA) investigation is underway. Let me simply suggest that anyone who knowingly departs with less than sufficient fuel plus reserves on board needs their heads examined, so there are other factors indicated. It would be extremely helpful if some consideration were shown for the crew of this aircraft whose combined airmanship, in fact, saved the day.

...mayday somewhere near Hook Head apparently

Nope. Ask around. Base Leg 03, I understand.

Ah ok, so you were lying on the other thread then

a797... What can I say. You really are a prized Twerp aren't you! := How dare you flame Keygrip in that way!!! Taught by Airline Captains for your PPL at FSI were you? First time passes, in your ground exams eh? ...and your flight test! WOW! Good for you. So... you've been in this industry now for, well let's see, 5 minutes? You obviously know what you're talking about then.

KeyGrip has been in this industry for many many years. He has more hours than many of those "airline captains" at FSI you're so smug about. Indeed, he has worked with FSI many years before PTC was born. Yet, he is TOTALLY independant of PTC, FSI the IAA or the FAA. In fact, without giving too much away, his actual job depends on this.

So whatever your grievances against PTC, don't take them out on Keygrip! His analysis is completely correct. PTC pulled out of FSI because FSI didn't meet the standards required.

This is public information, so for the record, PTC are now based at FIT in Melbourne Florida, (who mentioned Australia???... good grief :ugh:). FIT is maybe not as publicly well-known as FSI, but they are renowned as a NASA training facility. (Their current Dean is a former astronaut). Without comparing the length of everyone's personal credentials at PTC (FL) with those at FSI, let me just say that one of the PTC groundschool instructors is a former NASA test-pilot and the others are equally well experienced in their own ways.

What a joke. The standards of professionalism and quality of training/facilities at flight safety are a thousand times higher than those of PTC. Every single student that has graduated from the 0-atpl course will tell you that.

FSI focuses on the student, PTC focuses on how much money they can extract from the student.

So let me finish with some salient facts. PTC is a business. Like any other it must make money and to do that it must be profitable. There is no shame in making a profit, or from trying to maximise that profit. If students feel exploited, they can try elsewhere. If instructors feel aggrieved about their terms and conditions, they are welcome to move on. That is the nature of a free market and you all have choices.

But a word of warning... The grass always seems greener on the other side. Having done all of my training on the modular route and having worked in the industry now for many years, I have seen none better than PTC when it comes to standards. That includes places like Oxford and Cabair, who also have facilities in the USA. Indeed, if you think resources, timescales, and costs are a "joke" at PTC, you should experience the joys of being a modular student in Goodyear Arizona or Kissimmee Florida, or Kidlington / Cranfield for that matter.

All of the more vocal complainants in this thread can't see this of course. Their noses are pressed firmly up against the windows at Waterford watching the ATRs fly in and out of the persistent rain and low overcast which we're blessed with at present. Understandably, their problems are intensely personal to them, and they're missing the Florida Sunshine where everything was bright and beautiful while they were doing their PPLs at FSI. But they have no perspective. If you want to see disenchanted instructors and frustrated students, you need look no further... but if you did, you would find the same story told over and over in so many different ways.

That doesn't make it right, of course, but you see it's all relative. Sure, PTC management is like any other when it comes to running a business. Their backs are against the economic wall. But unless they can afford to sustain the facilities you all slag off so easily in this thread, then none of you will be able to complete your courses and none of the instructors will have jobs.

How many other "reputable" flight schools have you seen go bust and walk off with their student's money? PTC is not likely to do that to you; so be grateful that the management are hard-nosed enough to protect your investment.

Okay, so there's some marketing "spin" about airline jobs and pass rates? We all know that. But so does every other school who wants your money. Actually, the pass rates aren't that far off! Whatever else you might say about PTC, the training standards are amongst the very best. Read back through this thread, and (occasionally) you will see how the instructors get a nod of approval amongst all the criticism.

Scheduling... is automated - with some tedious manual assistance. RTF is a bloody nightmare IMHO. Perhaps they should go back to a white board and a pen? But you see, that's not the most efficient way to handle resources. You might well get frustrated being thrust into group groundschool when the sun is shining, but hey... the groundschool still needs to be done and PTC still need to conduct the courses profitably. So quit moaning about it. You'll complete your courses in the end either way.

So you got a rude letter about your account? So grow up and pay up. We all get rude letters. My bank is positively obscene. So is the gas board. But if you want gas, you have to pay for it. There's nothing in the contract to say they have to be nice about it!

As far as jobs are concerned, you all seem to expect these things to be handed to you on a plate! Get real. After walking out of the CAA office with my ATPL (Frozen) **** years ago, I spent the next 3 years trying to get a job. Either you graduated at the same time that the airlines were hiring, or you just graduated. 3 months later, the airlines would be looking for the next bunch of students and you were just academic "history". At least PTC have actually forged productive relationships with some airlines and that genuinely gives you all a head start. But nothing, I repeat, nothing is guaranteed. Jobs have, (and always will), depend on the economy, timing, luck and - not least - YOU applying yourselves in the broadest possible sense to your chosen discipline and the task of wearing out shoe-leather.

You would be forgiven for thinking that I have no sympathy with some of the many grievances expressed here. In fact I have a lot of sympathy. I sympathise with those ground-school instructors at PTC Ireland, some of whom were made redundant recently. I sympathise with everyone, Students and Instructors alike, who feel that they have been badly treated. I think there are many areas where PTC management can improve their corporate communications, both in style and in effectiveness. Their operations also have plenty of room for improvement, not least in making RTF a LOT more flexible than it is at present.

You are free to disagree of course but despite everything, my opinion about PTC is that they ARE committed to providing the best service to the student that they can, at the price that they have quoted. They don't always get it right, for sure, and certain individuals can get understandably frustrated.

But they are working on it and the product they have right here and right now is still amongst the best that the flight training industry has to offer. When the PTC facility in Florida finally re-opens its doors in the new year, there will be nothing else out there to touch it!

[a797]

a797... What can I say. You really are a prized Twerp aren't you! := How dare you flame Keygrip in that way!!! Taught by Airline Captains for your PPL at FSI were you? First time passes, in your ground exams eh? ...and your flight test! WOW! Good for you. So... you've been in this industry now for, well let's see, 5 minutes? You obviously know what you're talking about then.

I love the way that its you guys who supposedly have so much experience in the industry that resort to name calling, and dismissing peoples opinions as 'stupid'.

How many other "reputable" flight schools have you seen go bust and walk off with their student's money? PTC is not likely to do that to you; so be grateful that the management are hard-nosed enough to protect your investment.

Correct me if im wrong, but are you suggesting that ptc students should be 'grateful' that ptc dont just take their 90 odd grand only to go out of business 6 months later? Maybe ptc should put that on their website then 'we wont just take your money then go out of business shortly after....honest!!' instead of some lie about how 98% of their students work for airlines within 2 months of graduating.

So you got a rude letter about your account? So grow up and pay up. We all get rude letters. My bank is positively obscene. So is the gas board. But if you want gas, you have to pay for it. There's nothing in the contract to say they have to be nice about it!

Ok, so if your bank or your gas company issue you an invoice that is absurdly incorrect to the tune of THOUSANDS of euros, do you just say to yourself 'hmm ok i better grow up and pay this'? lol, please remind me never to open an account in your bank, or to take financial advice from yourself for that matter.

Look im finished with this argument....as far as ptc goes there's no smoke without fire. Lots of students have spoken out about some of the scandalous activities that go on within the company. You will be extremely hard pressed to find a single graduate or current student that would reccomend ptc to anybody considering starting training. Hopefully they will get their act together, because their reputation can only take so much of a beating before people stop enrolling and start looking elsewhere.

[Flying Lawyer]

a797

Although it's very childish, name-calling, sarcasm and personal insults serve a useful purpose in discussions of this nature.

They provide a useful indication of the credibility (or otherwise) of the person doing it which enables shrewd readers to assess what weight (if any) should be attached to the rest of what they say.
Genuinely independent and objective contributors are far less likely to resort to such behaviour. Those who are less independent than they would like readers to believe often do.LD Max First time passes, in your ground exams eh? ...and your flight test! WOW! Good for you. a797 explained that mentioning achievements was intended to avoid being dismissed as some bitter student who couldn't handle the pace of the course blaming others for his/her own shortcomings. (An allegation not infrequently made in such discussions - perhaps justifiably on some occasions.)

I have very little direct experience of training but I am involved in an organisation which gives financial and other assistance to aspiring pilots. I chat with them regularly and inevitably hear about their good, bad and mixed experiences at UK schools and schools elsewhere. (Usually America, most commonly Florida.)
I have no reason to believe that the assessments posted by a797 and those agreeing with him are other than fair and accurate because they accord with what I've been told. So... you've been in this industry now for, well let's see, 5 minutes? You obviously know what you're talking about then. He didn't claim to be an expert in the training industry. He posted his personal experience of two schools in the hope that it might be helpful to others.
Learning about other people's experiences, and sometimes from other people's experiences, is one of PPRuNe's valuable features.
Of course there are sometimes people who have a grudge (reasonable or unreasonable) against a particular school - but that brings us back to the genral issue of making judgments about the credibility of the person posting.

FL

[LD Max]

I am not at all surprised at a797's response to my comments, but since I really don't care, let me turn instead to Flying Lawyer.

Although it's very childish, name-calling, sarcasm and personal insults serve a useful purpose in discussions of this nature.
They provide a useful indication of the credibility (or otherwise) of the person doing it which enables shrewd readers to assess what weight (if any) should be attached to the rest of what they say.
Genuinely independent and objective contributors are far less likely to resort to such behaviour. Those who are less independent than they would like readers to believe often do.

Agreed. Surely you, as a "lawyer", can distinguish between defamation of character such as "You're a lier" and an admonishment such as "You're a Twerp". I think my response was quite fair under the circumstances. This boy needs to grow up - and if he is incapable of making the judgement himself, he needs to know that this behaviour is not acceptable.

Indeed, as you pointed out, his comments show his own bias quite strongly.

I have no reason to believe that the assessments posted by a797 and those agreeing with him are other than fair and accurate because they accord with what I've been told.

To which, m'lud, I would respectfully suggest amounts to "hearsay". Don't beleive everything you're told, because there are a number of agendas at play. Review the comments and just add up the number of emotive comments, which I think outweigh the concrete examples by an order of magnitude. For example (in no particular order):

Looks like the **** has finally hit the fan, the more that speak out about this place the better.

I'll echo that, don't email them, they must have viruses, because I had a pretty new email address, and as soon as I emailed them nothing but spam.

The standards of professionalism and quality of training/facilities at flight safety are a thousand times higher than those of PTC.

So... this is what we've been told. So we just accept it do we? No intelligent probing of these statements?

Surely if *I*, as a customer of the Gas Board, dispute my £3,000 quarterly bill because it's summertime and I cook on Electric, do I not query it with Gas Board? Or do I go running off to vent my wrath in the media?


He didn't claim to be an expert in the training industry. He posted his personal experience of two schools in the hope that it might be helpful to others.

In *this* industry, the *professional* thing to do is to have a closed-door meeting with the management and work out the issues. Then... *maybe*, if they slam the door in your face, you might care to share your concerns, *professionally* in a forum such as this.

So when Keygrip said:
I'm neither discussing, nor have much interest, in the finance or the marketing (in this particular conversation), I'm talking purely the training and the standards required or achieved.

...a797 called him a Lier. You lawyers would call it "damaging the credibility of the defence witness", I suppose.

In fact, all a797 has achieved is to damage his own credibility. How helpful is that to others who are trying to get a broad view of opinions? No. I'm sorry. a797 is *not* trying to be helpful to others. He is trying to force his own childish views down everyone's throat and flaming those who don't agree with him.

[a797]

For the love of god.

Reguarding calling keygrip a liar, all i did was point to another thread about ptc where he clearly stated he had absolutely no connection what so ever to ptc, and a statement he made here saying he was directly involved with the training. He is responsible for his own words, i dont know him, or what he does and i dont give a flying **** either. I didnt "damage the credibility of the defence witness", he did that himself.

People can make their own minds up about ptc, and I think several graduates coming out saying the organisation is a scam makes a far more powerful statement than you and keygrip making aggressive rants at me.

[Dick_Dasterdly]

children children!!!!!! Play nicely!!!:=

[tarasky]

a797 said:
"People can make their own minds up about ptc, and I think several graduates coming out saying the organisation is a scam makes a far more powerful statement than you and keygrip making aggressive rants at me."

Exactly. That's the bottom line here. People considering PTC should consult with PTC students,past and present. These individuals, of which there are plenty here, are the only people who can describe to would be PTC students what it's like to be a student with this particular FTO.
Unless you were/are a PTC student you do not know what it's like to be a PTC student. If you are an outsider looking in, a PTC employee or a person connected to the FTO in some way you are of course entitled to your opinions however, I reiterate my earlier point, if you are currently considering PTC consult with PTC students.
No body else can speak on behalf of the students regarding what it's like to be a student there.

Tara.

[Keygrip]

797

clearly stated he had absolutely no connection what so ever to ptc, and a statement he made here saying he was directly involved with the training. He is responsible for his own words, i dont know him, or what he does and i dont give a flying **** either. I didnt "damage the credibility of the defence witness", he did that himself.


The fact that you don't understand how, or why, doesn't change the fact that all the above *IS* correct. I have nothing to do with either PTC(FL) or PTC Waterford. I *am*, however, involved in their training and standards in Florida. No lies, no damage to credibility.

What *might* have damaged credibility, certainly as far as this thread goes, was the use of an attempted line of humour - which works in verbal conversation, but clearly not when used in this text (with no emotion in the voice). I had no intention of suggesting *YOU* were/are "stupid".

Let me finish my growls - I have no comment on PTC Waterford as a company (know nothing about them), I have no connection with PTC(FL), I *am* involved in their training - they may be a crap COMPANY - dunno.

What I do know is that PTC left FSI because the standard taught by the FAA instructors at FSI were NOT the standard required by PTC(FL) or the IAA (with regard to the CPL check rides). That bit is NOT open to question.

[Coolkopter]

What I do know is that PTC left FSI because the standard taught by the FAA instructors at FSI were NOT the standard required by PTC(FL) or the IAA (with regard to the CPL check rides). That bit is NOT open to question.

This is completely untrue. PTC left FSI because of Visa issues, and nothing to do with training standards. FACT

[LD Max]

Actually... you're both right.

It goes to show how complex this business is. Visa issues were the last straw. FSI are a good FAA school, but not adaptable to the particular requirements and nuances of the JAA syllabus or the IAA approval. That covers a whole range of issues including VISAs.

PTC have tried to address this with FSI in a number of ways. But in the end PTC could not continue to operate it's business to the standards required without the full cooperation of FSI. Bottom line, PTC put the students' training programmes and standards first... at HUGE expense to the Company. They didn't have to do this, and if they didn't care, they would still be at FSI letting students get mucked about ad-infinitum.

Tarasky: You're absolutely right - but missing the point of my original growl. I started off by saying:

One of the privileges of anonymity in a forum such as this, is how it affords participants the ability to speak honestly and truthfully about heartfealt issues, without fear of sanction or repercussion. Unfortunately it also affords certain individuals the freedom to talk complete and utter BULL****.

Keygrip started off by saying:

I've always been a believer that everybody is entitled to their own stiupid opinion - and that includes you and yours.

So if people like a797 will continue to stick their heads above the parapet, that's just fine. But when they say something that's just plain wrong, then they can expect to be told so! Perhaps Keygrip's use of the word "stupid" was inadvisable, (but nevertheless correct), - and knowing him was meant with a touch of Humour. Clearly that didn't come across.

What really bugs me is the fact that people like Keygrip have advocated and campaigned for many years to increase standards of training - especially in the USA. He deals with students every day, (many of them disgruntled), and in many cases takes their issues up personally, at his own cost, with various managements and the regulators. He is a moderator on this forum because he CARES about students like you, and a797.

What he doesn't deserve is to be called a liar, when all he is trying to do is give some balance to what has become a very unbalanced and one-sided conversation. Hence my growl at a797 and my attempt to clear-up some misconceptions.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation now because I have plenty of other things to do, including looking after my own. This is something I spend my entire waking hours doing too... looking after students and trying to solve their issues. But like most people, (including the PTC management I suspect), I am far more receptive to those who ask for help, rather than banging their fists on the table - if you catch my drift.

[flybearann]

Jesus LDMAX, your post reeks of bull****. You are obviously very well connected with PTC. You seem to have that PTC employee ignorance, ignore what the students say, they ll shut up and put up.

What good is a NASA instructor to students who where pissed about by two know it all conversion students from New Zealand?!? My ATPL consoloadtion was taught to me by "instructors" that did not have their ATPL exams completed, that is a :mad:ing joke. Some standards there!!

Standards in PTC may look excellent on paper, but they are not enforced. Each instructor has their own way of teaching, different standards and methods. I was lucky enough the have the former CFI, HOT and a senior instructor for my CPL/MEIR. I know many a students that was pissed about with Spanish instructors that could not speak English.

You said if a student feels exploited they can try else where? What a crazy statement, PTC students have to pay upfront, I had over 50,000 euro paid to them before I even started my CPL. Once you are in, you're traped! You have no access to financial statements, or account balances. All you get is threats if you don't pay up.

I don't expect a job to be handed to me on a goldent plate, but if PTC cannnot provide a guaranteed interview for students, then they should take the claim off their web page. There is 30+ of us sitting around with nothing, ALL OF US MADE THE STANDARD. How is that fair?? Did you notice its now 90% employment in two months as opposed to 98%?

As regards my rude letter about my account, I woul love to "grow up and pay up" IF MY BILL WAS CORRECT!!!!!!!! I have received 3 different statements, each for different amounts.

I do not know one student that has finished up with them that would recommend them to anyone. PTC staff and managment can post here all they like, but the students opinion will far outway their bull****. In a closing statement I hear a number of students are taking them to court, PM me with details, I love to join yous.

[LD Max]

Okay... one more.

Flybearran:

1) No, my post was my genuine opinion.

(Edit: in the light of my following comment I should, perhaps, say categorically for the record that all my opinions and views expressed here are my own personal ones, and not necessarily that of PTC. I am certainly not authorised to speak on their behalf.)

2) I think the PTC management are probably sensible enough - unlike me - not to get emboilled in this public debate. But yes I am "connected" with PTC, (although perhaps not that "well"), but that gives me the insight to say that the *individuals* who work here, both front-line and back-office are all committed to serving the students' best interests.

3) PTC is pressing forward with all sorts of changes. New offices, new staff, new syllabi, new operational systems. Many of your concerns are already recognised and are being addressed. Progress demands change and PTC are not shy of it. They remain fully committed to getting things right and I should emphasise, that in most cases they do!

(Another first time pass today as it happens.)

4) Your story is obviously very real to you, and it grieves me to hear it. My comment wasn't about YOUR bill per-se, it was a general observation that when accounts get in arrears, then rude letters get sent out. It's unfortunate, sure, but nothing to get worked up about. But PLEASE DO take YOUR issue(along with any other similarly aggrieved students) to the management. Don't bang your fists on the table, just arrange a meeting - on your own or collectively - and raise these issues properly.

[flybearann]

Congrats on the first time pass, I myself got first time passes in every flight test. I bet that student has been promised the sun moon and stars as well?

We are all entitled to our own view on PTC, your view comes from that of the employee/connected side of PTC. Approaching PTC for a meeting is not as easy on our side. We will be accused of "not making the standard" or "you have to go about it yourself" or "you are on a very short list for an interview" or "we'll get so and so to sign that off for you now"(I finished up over half a year ago and you have yet to sign it?).

Every time I had a meeting with senior staff in PTC I was fed bull**** to shut me up and stop me from complaining. I don't see how that shows the students best interests are at heart? Maybe they are no longer there, but managent are/where bullies. Its all about age down there aswell, if you where under 25 you where ignored, over 25, your concerns where listened to.

I do hope what you say is true about PTC, but its no good to me or other students that got pissed about. Many a change was implmented while I was a student there, and no good came of it. PTC is a not a well run flight school. Instruction was decent for CPL and IR, but I was just lucky to get a good instructor. Based on my experience and observation of how others where treated, I would encourage people to stay away. I was given a handbook and a bill when I left PTC, a real Irish "all the best now cheers for your money".

I am annoyed over the way I have been treated by PTC, and I feel the need post about my experience to warn others, cheers PPRUNE:ok:

[Flying Lawyer]

LD Max says he’s left the discussion.
In fairness to him I should explain that when I referred to people who resort to “name-calling, sarcasm and personal insults” I wasn’t referring only to him.

I also mentioned to people who are less independent and objective than they would like readers to believe. The two categories often overlap, but I readily concede LD didn't try to give the impression his comments were even remotely independent or objective.

“Don’t believe everything you’re told.”
I’m amused he should think I would. I urged readers to be cautious about assertions made.
However, that also applies to assertions by people who try to give the impression they are giving neutral advice when they are not.

Some recommendations/warnings about schools, both on this website and elsewhere, are based upon direct personal experience and some are based upon hearsay as LD describes it. It doesn’t follow that no weight should be attached to the latter. If the same or very similar comments come from a number of different sources then, at the very least, warning bells should ring loudly.
“Intelligent probing” of assertions is good advice but, again, it also applies to posts by people claiming to be independent.

“….. a number of agendas at play here.”
LD appears to want readers to believe that applies only to one side here - whereas people on the other side don’t have an agenda. That is where he and I differ.

“This boy needs to grow up - and if he is incapable of making the judgement himself, he needs to know that this behaviour is not acceptable.”
This boy. :rolleyes:
Not acceptable to whom?

“In *this* industry, the *professional* thing to do is …… etc.”
LD was rather coy about how long he’s actually been in the industry. For some reason, he referred to obtaining his “ATPL (Frozen) **** years ago”.
Curious. :confused:
I resist the temptation to speculate about whether that's because it’s so many years that he can’t remember, or so few years that he doesn’t want to reveal it while being so patronising to (and about) others.

“In fact, all a797 has achieved is to damage his own credibility.”
Not IMHO.

“a797 ………. is trying to force his own childish views down everyone's throat and flaming those who don't agree with him.”
Pots and kettles come to mind. :)


LD says Tarasky is missing the point.
I think he/she is spot on.
The point LD is missing is that this forum is for wannabees to ask questions and exchange information and experiences.
It is not for schools.
Nor is it for FI’s (or other professionals) who have a personal interest (direct or indirect) in defending/promoting a particular school.

Some parts of LD’s posts read like something straight out of advertising/promotional literature and, in one of his ‘delightfully moving tributes’ to PTC (I adopt a phrase used by Keygrip against a797), even claiming “there will be nothing else out there to touch” a new PTC facility which isn’t yet open.
So much for credibility. :rolleyes:

FL

Edited for typos.

[acepilotmurdock]

Before I start this post, I must stress that I am not here to comment on what has happened in the past with PTC or peoples personal experiences with PTC, as I am in no position to do so.
However what I will say is that I am currently a student with PTC and PTC Florida, and feel that something should be said about the changes that are taking place out here. In MY experience the staff here at PTC Florida are trying their hardest and no more so than Mike Edgeworth to create a training program here that will be structured and better organised than previouse courses. With teaming up with FIT will also create a modern flying program as a CPL done on Simanols that bearly have 100 hours on them and are completly glass cockpit.
All I am saying is that if anyone who is thinking about PTC if you would like to PM me I will give you an unbiased view from some one who is going through the course as it happens.....and before people start shooting me down please refer to the opening statement, and I will stress PTC have got some issues that need addressing, however I believe the team here now are trying their hardest to put these right. Thanx all so I will step down and wait for the incoming Flack.
:ok:

[wayupthere]

cost cutting PTC style!! It is not for me to speculate how this happened. But those who were involved would find it deeply offensive to suggest that there was any *intention* of departing with insufficient fuel. PTC have taken this incident *very* seriously indeed and an AAIU (not IAA) investigation is underway. Let me simply suggest that anyone who knowingly departs with less than sufficient fuel plus reserves on board needs their heads examined, so there are other factors indicated. It would be extremely helpful if some consideration were shown for the crew of this aircraft whose combined airmanship, in fact, saved the day.

Ah man, theres me thinking one was still allowed a sense of humour...

Whats all this about students taking them to court? Why?

[Captain Planet]

In relation to acepilotmurdock (http://www.pprune.org/members/213965-acepilotmurdock)'s post :

What's the point in doing your CPL in a glass cockpit aircraft if you have to do the flight test in an aircraft with steam guages? Hmmm, someone is not doing their research:=. Also, Doing your training in.....let me count 1,2,3. 3 flight schools is often frowned upon by employers so you've succeeded in deterring people from PTC acepilotmurdock (http://www.pprune.org/members/213965-acepilotmurdock). Good man.

CP.

Oh! P.S. on a lighter note - Is there a spell check on this? can't seem to find it if there is.

[acepilotmurdock]

Thanx Capt. I do know that your flight test has to be done on a steam driven puppy. However what I was trying to highlight was the fact that we will get some of our time in an all glass cockpit enviroment, which I belive the airlines are trying to encourage. So to be fair in my opinion you are getting the best of both worlds.
And to answer the second point, we wont have two or three differnet training schools down as we will still be with PTC Florida but based out of FIT at Melbourne. Again I am not trying to recruit people to come to PTC or deter them, as previously stated I am going through my training here and will give you my honest opinion if it is so required.
Good luck to all out there who have qualified as we all know these are tough times in the aviation industry, and it doesnt help anyone by slagging people off or flinging **** around. :ok:

[acepilotmurdock]

Well as it happens I have already secured a job. :ok:

[Captain Planet]

Well I'm sure I speak for everyone here when wishing aceplotmurdock the best in his job with FlyBe.

Happy Christmas to all. Here's to a better '09!

CP.

[Tom Power]

I was due to start with the PTC in feburary, but after reading this thread am seriously thinking of another flight school. The reason I picked PTC is because I am from Waterford and can save a lot of money on acc and doing distance learning. Can anyone give me some advice on another school or your opinion on this??? Pm me me advice, And advice is needed and greatly appreciated.

[cambridge]

Flight Training Europe, Jerez, Spain, in my opinion is the best professional pilot training school around. I am an airline Training Captain and, over the years, have line trained and examined graduates from many schools.
I have found none better than FTE. They may cost a little more, but the end product is very good. Many major airlines use them for their cadet training schemes.