Netjets seniority list

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Does anyone here have any more ideas what the new seniority list proposal is going to look like?

Pure seniority list based on DOJ?

Seat locking?

Time before upgrades?

Fleet transfers?

A new memo was supposed to be released this week....nothing so far!

[CE550B]

Only thing I've heard is seniority based on date of hire and a web based bidding system for fleetchanges. But this is all secondhand info. We'll see.

[paxsign]

Details are out. CE550B is correct. Looks like a fair system.

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

So for someone joining now, with 9000hrs heavy jet in his log book, and taking this new seniority system into account...

Lets assume he/she will be hired on the HS125

How long will it take for:

1) An upgrade

2) Fleet transfer to one of the bigger planes such as the 2000 for example.

Thanks for the info.

[south coast]

I think, but could be wrong.

That it would take him 6-12 months to upgrade to captain, no direct entry captains.

Then, he would be seat locked for 2 years as a captain, then he would be competing through the bidding system with everyone else.

So, it just depends on when he joins and what his number on the seniority list is relative to everyone else who will also be looking to get on to a large cabin plane.

Almost an impossible question, I think only the minimum of 3 years can be said to get to the point of being able to bid, then it is down to a large set of variables. ( seniority, types available at that time for bidding, how many people bid for that type, etc, etc)

[Holyman]

@ Atlantique

The fleet is divided in small/medium jets and large cabin (Hawker 4000 and above), the ratio is 80-20.

NetJets crews 8 pilots per aircraft, at the moment around 1000 pilots and 150 aircraft.

So from the 1000 pilots some 200 are flying large cabin.

How long will it take?

Lets see:

NetJets growing 20% per year.
Average 70 pilots walk away (pension, sick, other job etc).


So if you join now you be around the nr 1000 position. Every year you are in the company the large fleet gets 20% bigger. At the moment they have 100 captains and 100 FO large fleet.

year 0 - most junior large fleet captain around seniority 100.
year 1 - 7 walk away (evenly spread throughout 1000 pilots) so we take 7% leavers, and fleet grows 20%, so most junior captain now around 127


Year 0 100
Year 1 128
Year 2 165
Year 3 212
Year 4 272
Year 5 349
Year 6 448
Year 7 575
Year 8 739
Year 9 949
Year 10 1218


So it will take 11 longs years of bitching around on the small/medium fleets. That means 2 to 4 legs a day, 33% of them have no apu (airco/heating) etc.......good luck !

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

@ Holy man,


your theory is not totally correct I am afraid. You forgot to take into account the following:

1) 1000 pilots is more or less correct. 60% captain/40% FO
2) On the large cabin fleets the ratio is even higher, as they fly a lot with reinforced crews with 2 Capt and 1 FO
3) Of these 1000 pilots, a big number are young FOs, needing hours before becoming captain. Besides that there still is a 50% fail rate in the upgrades.
4) With the new seniority system, people will get seatlocked for longer. This could mean a faster tranfer to large cabin as well.
5) Not all pilots are interested in flying long haul.
6) In order to transfer to e.g. the 7X, long haul experience and other things will be taken into account as well.
7) Netjets crews at 6 pilots per aircraft. (bit higher on long haul)

So when you take all this into acount I think it might happen just a bit faster than your prediction.
People who started 1.5 years ago might expect a large cabin airplane within 3 years to come.
People starting now, could expect ( if experienced enough) a large cabin after 5 to 6 years.

( These figures come from an experienced netjets pilot, they are not mine...)

[gregwood]

Holyman,
Clever maths; but factualy incorrect.
At present there is about a 3-4 year wait from moving from a small/mid fleet to a long haul one.
Given the shift in sales to the long range A/C (7X) etc. ,i can hardly expect people to wait 11 years for a large fleet command.

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Hey Gregwood,


seems we are using the same logic and or calculator....


:ok:

[Smeagel]

Don't forget to factor in the new get out clause. All the bits about time in company, seat locking etc are fine but there's that bit at the end that basically says if your face doesn't fit you'll be overstepped.

How do you allow for that?

[CL300]

All things being equal, how long in a normal company (ie no low-cost, they have no long haul yet), , can you expect to move right to left on long haul ?

8 to 11 years ? Considering people coming in at 1500 hours instead of 300 for scheduled airlines, you save 2 to 3 years, as a consequence 5 to 8 years meaning at 1500 + 8*500 = 5500 hours you can find a left hand seat in a 7X.

Good luck anywhere else.


For the ex long haul, bus drivers; if only size matters, drive eastbound, etihad, Emirates or else, with all your incredible, unvaluable experience, you should have a Left hand Seat right away....

Bottom line, you decide to go GA charter with an airline like lifestyle,you pass the selections, you enjoy as many days off as you can while commuting at company expenses...And you learn the sops and part A please...

[south coast]

Smeag's

Surely the company must be allowed to refuse certain people who they deem unsuitable or not capable of being on certain types.

We are all capable of different things, and if my piers have reservations about my ability to fly a g5 or 7x, I would expect them to report that back to the company and to me, and the management to have the backbone and decency to put it in writing to me, as the new policy says will be done, 'I am not suitable for type x,y,z because.....'

At least I am then aware of why they consider me unsuitable, and I can contest it, can work towards improving those skills if they are indeed weak, and finally, I would rather have it in writing why they are refusing me a fleet change than to just bid and receive an anonymous no.

If this is done properly, and it is not abused and made political, then surely it is how it should be.

I suppose the bottom line comes back to whether the management is trusted as it is only people who can abuse the system, not a computer bidding software programme.

[Holyman]

At all, so funny when you say 10 years to big aircraft the netjets supporters come out of the bushes to claim it is less.

So 6-7 years is their deal.....for the people reading this, take their number ! No problems.

Remember the sickness policy, the pension, the leaving rate of people, the due date of senior management (never last more than 4 years in a position, then get sick, promoted to lineflying or leave) and yes do take your invaluable experience to Emirates or alike...........

[Holyman]

@ Snr Atlantique

You dissapoint me, you ask a question I give you my best shot. And then you have better information?

Do NOT ask the question then !!

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Holyman,


I am sorry if you took my post that way, it was not at all my intention to point a finger at you.

What happend was that your post made me think. I was at a friends house, a Netjets pilots for several years, and he started reflecting on the things you said and thus I posted a reply, based on his findings.

Your post was highly appreciated mate, believe me, and it has provoked some rather intresting replies so far!

To some others,


did I ever say my BUS experience was considered by myself as over valuable? Did I ever say I did not agree with the way Netjets is doing things? Did I ever say I deserve more because of that?

I dont think so!

I am planning a huge career move/change and I just wanted some honest opinions from people allready there. In order to receive these oponions I needed to give you information....thats all!

If I decide to join, I will take my number and try to fit in as good as possible. I do consider my previous experience valuable in a way that I am not an ab initio pilot anymore. I have a lot to learn with regards to corporate aviation and everything around it but I do have over 10 years experience as a professional pilot.
When the company decides that my previous experience comes in handy somewhere and they want to use it, fine!
If they decide not to use it, fine as well!
And all this withing the reelings and dealings of the company....

But please do not shoot me just for trying to find honest information!

:ok:

[Holyman]

Ok Atlantique.

@CL300....do not be so arrogant about the valuable experience.

We know you like netjets a lot, me thinks you are senior management but will not put a name to your nickname, would be quiet embarrasing wouldn't it?


Everybody has to decide for themselves, but when people tell you you will be captain on a large fleet in not time. They are lying.

Just took a closer look at a AOC. It seems the portion large fleet (h4000 and above) is only 18%.

The 60% captain and 40% fo sounds about right.

Someone was telling that we are selling more big aircraft. That is not true as well. I can inform you that sales are slowing down at the moment.

The last time this happened 2001-2002 we introduced the card of 25 hrs, wouldn't surprise me if we introduce 10 or 15 hr cards now as well.

Anyway the businessmodel has not proven to be succesfull so far. Yes in good years like 2007 we can make money. But when the economy sneezes the rich keep a finger on their wallet as well. And we try to sell them something in the 6 figures worth of euros.......that is a hard job.

So what will happen this year, crewing and hiring will be complete before the summer. Sales will slow down. We will see 10 or 15 hr card beeing introduced.

People who will join now will spent 6 year on the small/midsize fleet, 33% no apu, pension, loss of license, union, sickness policiy will all be worked hard on by senior (and rapidly rotating) management......you will get an answer in 3 years time.

[CL300]

hey holyman !

I love this view of me at senior management level, the discussion took place some time ago..
So feel free to put my name on the top, or if nofear (lol) gimme your bberry pin code I will answer you...

fair game no ?

[Smeagel]

south coast.

You'd better sit down. Comfortable? Good. Can't have you fainting and falling over when you read this.

I agree with you.

There, it's out. I agree with pretty much everything in your last post. There should be a system that prevents someone who is not fit for purpose securing a cushy job on a nice aeroplane simply on the basis of their having been in the company long enough or having the right friends. No argument from me there.

BUT (you knew there would be a 'but' didn't you?;)). It is how that mechanism is employed. People who are open to criticism as a way of improving would welcome a transparent system that is regulated properly and used in a positive fashion and there's the rub. You said it yourself when you wrote "If this is done properly, and it is not abused and made political" (my bold).

Let's be honest, NJE's track record in the fields of transparency, internal politics and settling old scores is not a pretty one. DM himself put it quite succinctly one day when he was told that one of the department supervisors had gone to the gym during his lunch break. "What for? He gets enough exercise stabbing people in the back, jumping to conclusions and running people down". Like him or loathe him I laughed when I heard that and joke or not it hit the nail on the head.

Are things different? I would hope so. The recent change of DOO is a good sign that has removed one of the nastiest, most vindictive people in the company and replaced him with one of the most respected. You can only hope the new guy is strong enough to stay in character. There are still a few weasels there though who will not go quietly into the night. Some will not hesitate to use the vague clauses to play favourites. Get rid of them or clamp down on them and you're another step forward.

Better still, get that union organised. God knows it's been coming for long enough. If you don't have one by the time these new, poorer, sales figures kick in some of you will be very sorry. Ironically enough it will be those who joined last and are saying they don't want a union for fear of rocking the boat and spoiling their chances of LH seat on the large cabin fleets.

Which brings us neatly back to the subject in hand.



Holyman

CL300 management? Methinks not. I've been watching the bugger ;)in here for some time now and though he's close to 'them' I doubt he's a desk driver.

Try someone else. How about gregwood? New member, one post to his name and wrote "i can hardly expect people to wait 11 years for a large fleet command". Notice the "I"? Slip of the keyboard? Unintentional giveaway? Wishful thinking or a red herring? That's the trouble with the internet, you just can't tell.

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

No probs Holyman...


Could someone please elaborate a little bit on those sales slowing down, business models not working etc....

I just thought NJE was one of the more succesfull businesses in aviation untill now...

I am in a very comfortable position at the moment but I have always liked the way of doing things at NJE....Just dont want to find myself in the slum again within 3 years time....

Keep te high level of replies coming...

Thanks

:ok:

[south coast]

Smeagle is human...or perhaps an afro-nome?

Anyhow, I agree with what you say too, although within every organisation and policy there is scope for abuse and mismanagement.

Hopefully a new chapter has been started at NJ and it will take time for the management to gain the trust of the 'oldies', not that I fall into that group, but as the saying goes,

'We have to start somewhere...'

I can only say I think we need to see how the policy works before it is written off.

Man goes to a doctor and says, 'doctor, i have broken my arm in 2 places....'
Doctor says, 'dont go back there again...'

[CL300]

Peoplpe ae concerned about the future of NTA, but they do not blink an eye on whatever smaller outfit with a couple of airplanes; owner flown and maintained.
Aviation got cycles, may be one day NTA will collapse, may be Air France would go down, like Sabena or Swiss..Or may be BA would go down after looking how to downgrade crew benefits etc. These are all maybe's or If's

For the time being, the leverage that Netjets got is to tamper aircrafts deliveries towards sales, if the number of sold hours does not fit the actual scheme, I'm quite sure , since management is not philantropist in nature, they are going to find a solution, or new markets..

Let pilots piloting , and managers managing, let policies to set in place, voice the concerns, write crew reports if not happy and enjoy the life.

What would be pprune without sterile chats ?:{:}

[Holyman]

@ Atlantique


Take a look :

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_05/b4019055.htm?chan=search

This thread is becoming interesting for people. Good discussion about progression and seniority and maybe some good stuuf about the businessmodel of netjets.

Ciao

[CE550B]

Hummm, this article is 1 year old. And besides, mr Santulli said: "Contrary to what everyone says, the model works, we will continue to be profitable." There.... :}

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Nice article indeed.

But it is still talking about growing pains experienced by the industry in the period 2002-2005. The whole fractional ownership business model is all in all fairly new, so couldn’t growing pains be expected?

From what I know for example about the whole business model, is that the whole thing starts getting profitable the more you reduce the number of ferry flight hours. This off course can only be done once you start having a fairly big fleet size so you can cover a denser airplane coverage of your geographical area of operation.

From what I hear of NJE, this has only started to happen this year and this can be seen in a rather big decrease of ferry flight hours.

Another thing is watching fuel burn on these ferry flights. While before pilots could fly anyway they wanted on these sectors, now they are being encouraged to fly econ cruise speeds . ( correct me if wrong)

Many more things like this could be done in the future, and I am sure lots of them are being looked in to by the powers to be.

So it is my opinion that these business models will start showing their full potential in the nearby future.

Especially when looking at the rising fuel costs, which will affect big jets more when flying below optimal payloads.

Airport saturation is another fact, only playing in favour of fractional ownerships.

Many of these things could be brought up in favor of the Netjets Niche market.

Open for discussion, as always.


:ok:

[the_bookkeeper]

Just had my indoc some months ago and one of the managment guys held an presentation and he was there saying that with the size the company has now reached, it is proven that they will definitely earn money.

[Holyman]

In 2003 the story was....we need a considerable size of our fleet before making money....2004 the same, 2005, 2006 small profit, 2007 bigger profit.

I try to explain where it goes wrong. Not too much, they do not pay me near enough to get this for free....

Where shall I start:

1. First off all the different types we fly, way too much and a nightmare to get the right type to the rightfull customer. Upgrades and long ferries happen a lot. Both costing money.

2. With the right size of the fleet the ferry amount should go down. Nope doesn't happen for the last 5 years, still around 35% to 40% empty sectors. Cost a lot of money.

3. The peak capacity, why would you as customer spent a ****load of money to hear in busy periods that your plane is not available. so nj is hiring other jets from other operators, they need 2% capacity from the outside. This capacity is difficult to get cheaply. Maybe the first year, but the next that operator realizes he/she can make a lot more money than selling his capacity to netjets, cause nj is only needing them in peak hours when EVERYBODY can make money. So sell off are expensive, and driving the selloff number down is near inpossible (i have some ideas, but as said not paid near enough ;-)

4. Oilprices go up ($100,- now and 130 at the end of the year), and competition gets cheaper (air taxis and vlj's), so margin goes down.

5. The selling of the shares (16) per aircraft is the big moneymaker, nj buys 50 aircraft at once and gets aprox 25% discount. But the owners pay the full monty, and this process is continued every 5 years. Now since 2002 we had an explosion off cheaper clients who bought block hour (25 or 50 hr) cards. They had to do this because sales was slowing. Now the proportion of real owners and cardholders is not normal anymore. And this disposition gets worse as sales are slowing again!

The solutions, some are very simple but Santulli and his arrogance do not see them. (btw his brother is involved in buying the aircraft, look it up, then you understand some deals for aircraft which shouldn't belong to the best of the best fleet.....)

Anyway, 2006 and 2007, many airlines made a lot of money. 2008 and 09 will be different. Some will not survive (the legacy carriers will however, and af is now hiring experienced 320 people, see last flight international) but netjets europe will have 2 difficult years.

Hope this helps, still do not forget the pension, the sickness policy, the way they treat management, the 7 to 10 years before you touch a nice aircraft, the savings on hotels/travel, and the fact that 80% of the pilots serve on small or midsize fleets....

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Got to say Holyman that’s quite an attitude you've got there fella. Someone doesn't agree with you, questions your numbers and you respond by being rude.

“You dissapoint me, you ask a question I give you my best shot. And then you have better information? Do NOT ask the question then !!”

Does this mean Holyman that YOU are the one? The one single person on the planet who is correct 100% of the time, to who i need to direct all future questions on topics various?

You then proceed to post an old link to Fractionair, which exposes your exceedingly shallow logic. How on earth can you draw comparisons between the financial problems Fractionair had two years ago, and Netjets, whose owners Barkshire Hathaway have $46 BILLION CASH RESERVES you plank. There is NOTHING in that article that wasn't talked about years ago in Netjets, positioning costs, maintenance blah blah blah. It's not in the slightest bit interesting or relevant to netjets current issues.

I am not saying that Netjets is the dogs dangly bit's, however it's alot better than it was 5 years ago. However Holyman, back to the point of the thread and that is the NETJETS SENIORITY LIST. Why do you have a particular problem with a date of join system which is apparent in your original post?

"So it will take 11 longs years of bitching around on the small/medium fleets. That means 2 to 4 legs a day, 33% of them have no apu (airco/heating) etc.......good luck !"

That’s probably you bitching around Holyman, and it's that bitching around that is frankly testing the patience me and a good number of others! Your post's have so many holes in them i don't really know where to start. Just one final point however, those 80% of pilots who serve on small/mid cabin aircraft did have a choice in the interview. When asked "Do you mind flying a small cabin aircraft?" they should have jolly well answered "YES"

[Flintstone]

Got to say Holyman that’s quite an attitude you've got there fella.................you plank.

Tee hee. It must be catching.


;)

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Bono Estente. As you well know i've always been a plank, a likable plank though, good looking b@stard aswell.

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

So....should I ( and many others) worry about joining or not?

Is it all over for new joiners?

Is 11 years on a small jet realistically, or was I closer with my 4-6 years prediction?

Is this senioritylist, and everything that goes with it, a good thing or a bad thing after all?

BTW size does not matter, but the lifestyle that comes with flying long haul does!

:ok:

[pilotbear]

This is how net-jets Europe seniority goes;

1) ex RAF
2) Family of ex RAF
3) Friend of ex RAF
4) Friend of a friend who is ex RAF
5) Wanted to join RAF
6) Got poster of Harrier on bedroom wall
7) Everyone else

:ok:

edit to add, a ex RAF fighter pilot friend was recently offered a position at Netjets. He didn't want to be an FO so he was TOLD by senior recruiters also ex RAF he would get a couple of months right seat and then a quiet move to left!!!

[Flintstone]

Awwww, c'mon. The new, nice guy DOE is ex-Luftwaffe so there's hope for others.

Actually, now you mention it the favourites in NJE do seem to come around in cycles. In the very early days it was the Lisbon Flying Club, if you were leaving the Portuguese air force you got a job. Anyone above the rank of Flt Lt became an instant captain.

Then it was Sabena. All the long range, training, upgrade jobs were theirs.

Now (apparently) it's the turn of the RAF.

Who's next?

[Impressive_Wingspan]

No, i honestly don't think you should be worried about joining Netjets. Like i said big brother has an awful lot of cash down the back of the sofa and it is very difficult to see Berkshire Hathaway walking away. Even if Holyman thinks the number of positioning flights are not going down, everyone who has been to a recurrent over the last 6 months will confirm the trend has been downward as have the number of sell off's. That is based on the information we have been presented with. Suggesting that VLJ's will compete with Netjets is just nonsense and significantly underestimates Netjets owners. These are some of the richest people in Europe and the heads of large companies and they know their stuff, and that will include aircraft!

I joined four and a half years ago and it was very different then, and things have improved steadily, but it's a marathon not a sprint. I think BK is not only likeable but seems to have a very good grasp on reality and the fractional business. I'm not management and kiss no-ones ass, UK based mid size captain and quite happy with the lifestyle.

Aircraft wise, alot of experienced guys seem to be going to the Hawker fleet which is understandable given the number on order. Varied flying, APU, fleet manger and assistants are good lads. How long you would be there for, 11 years i very much doubt, 6-7 years would be more like it.

[Flintstone]

Interesting words IW though I think the VLJ's might have some effect on NJ card sales, especially if they do start selling 10-15 hours at a time.

[CL300]

The VLJ market is a niche in itself, when a customer will show up with a party of 3 instead of 2 with bags and will be denied boarding or enroute stop (if possible) we will see. The trend in our market is the bigger the better; people will try VLJ's get scared, get off the runway end a couple of times and it will be the end of it...
5 years ago operators were afraid of TBM and other Premier things... they found a niche but did not stumble the market. Dayjet in america is doable, in europe, we are a long shot away...

[spaniel]

When Holyman says that the percentge of Ferry sectors is not decreasing I guess he must be referring to the huge G4 fleet - seems like they keep ferrying to maintainance!

For the 'fleets' of aircraft thats well off the mark. A tour last month - 16 Sectors, 21 hours, 0.4 FERRY!!! LHR-LCY!! Admittedly thats more efficient than most, but nothing came close to that a few years back.

As for recession - everyone knows the Poor get poorer and the Rich (who, I think we fly!) get richer!:ok:

[Impressive_Wingspan]

You are def right flinters, VLJ's probably will take some business, especially the trips London-Paris, Geneva Zurich etc. These companies are going to have the same issues Netjets have been trying for years to solve, and although significantly cheaper to operate until they get a substantial client and aircraft base i would think they may be doing a fair bit of ferrying. They do look very small, saw one of them Eclipse things a few weeks ago, wouldn't mind a spin, them engines look tiny.

It is noticable the difference in number of ferry flights we are doing, not like the good old days of 2 revenues 2 ferries!

[Holyman]

At least the discussion is going now.

So with how much did the ferry numbers drop.......we saw the same numbers but they did not impress me ?

The same for sell off's, remember that 2006 and 2007 where such good years you hd to be very stupid not to make money! Because everybody did make money!

Anyone care to ask for an update on recruiting? I did, they will be ready before the summer, after the summer only continueing to make a pool of good candidates for next year.

Anyone on the person who is long term sick and they want to fire him now?

[Flintstone]

Holyman, you trying to usurp Smeagol or something? ;)


If you're asking about the pilot involved in the engine fumes gassing incident I'm told that his salary was cut last year but was then restored as the reduction was "an error". It seems that they now want to make the same "error", threats of reduced pay are again in the air at a time when he is very unwell.

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Holyman, recruitment and how management handles any future problems we need not concern ourselves with. They may indeed have a problem getting suitably experienced pilots. This is usually followed by a change in either salary or benefits to attract the people they need.

When was your last recurrent? The information i had put on a very big screen infront of me showed the number of ferries going down. I cannot remember the exact numbers but do recall the conversation which lasted for 30 minutes afterwards. Everyone out and about has been talking exactly the same way for some time now, which makes me think you may not have been around that long?

Holyman, can you eloborate on the problems you see on the Date of Join system? On the old system of fleet changes MANY guys who i have flown with as JUNIOR co-pilots are now captains on large cabin aircraft. I havn't bitched and moaned about this, because to be honest i really don't care. So the fairest solution is to continue with the above mentioned system of management pulling fleet changes from a hat, NO NO NO NO NO.

Also i would be very interested to hear your view on VLJ's and why you think they are going to have such a big impact on the flying Netjets does?

[CE550B]

I don't see the problem the Date of Joining system either. In my mind, this is the fairest sytem out there. Remember when they wanted to only count captains year towards any seniority credit? This was vigorously opposed during the last recurrent I was at. Seems like they did listen this time!

[shneidertrophy]

Its I think the only system possible. Thats what seniority is about, it has nothing to do with grade or type of aircraft.

The only thing a bit strange would be that rule whereby for people in the same day of joining the seniority would be based on date of birth!

Now thats irrelevant!

That being sid, this is the way its been done all over the world.

[south coast]

Date of birth, alphabetical order, doesnt really matter, but there must be some way of putting in some kind of order those on the same INDOC.

I dont mind either way.

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

What about how much alcohol you consume in a two week period? Whoever consumes the most is most senior.

[south coast]

Smeagal, didnt know you had it in you...?

Considering the poster's above name, it might be the purple headed, one eyed spitting cobra on occassions....!

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

Flop out then

[Smeagel's Mum]

You you scoundrel!!

Boyfriend?

Nooooooooo!

My Smeagel would never touch alcohol.

Ever.

[Holyman]

So the seniority system is up and running......

I made a guess in the past about 10+ years to a nice plane in this company for the new joiners.

Seems correct...

[FormerFlake]

The information i had put on a very big screen infront of me showed the number of ferries going down.

It is not a simple as looking at numbers though. The percentage of ferry flights works out at around 40% which is the maximum target. The reason the ferry flights are more often below 40% than they used to be is partly because we have more aircraft to cover fewer flights. So while we are saving on ferries we have aircraft and crews sat on the ground:ugh:.

We are also slightly less restricted with performance on the H400s than we used to be saving the Bravos etc from extra work.

In the summer, especially when a major football event is taking place, airports will often restrict us to 1 to 3 hr parking forceing us to ferry out then back in again later. There is nothing NJE can do about it but if more of our popular airports do this then it could hit home.

We also operate to a fair few small airports that do not have fuel forcing an extra ferry to a nearby airport to tanker fuel. Agian not a lot NJE can do about it but it all adds up.

I really dont see how the powers that be can track all the different factors that affect the market and proffits.

[CL300]

So the seniority system is up and running......

I made a guess in the past about 10+ years to a nice plane in this company for the new joiners.

Seems correct...


What is a nice airplane ? Why are you joining ?

If your idea of a nice Nice airplane is the bigger the better, if your ego cannot be satisfied with an Excel or a 125; please do not come to NTA !

If you have the hours, it is highly likely you would join on a midsize, upgrade in it and work...If not , You might join on a large cabin for 3/4 years, bump up the hours, then have command on a Bravo or else for another 4 years; then you will have the opportunity to have a bigger aircraft.

What difference a seniority list makes ?

NONE !!!

Why because it is market driven expansion, the seniority list is just a tool to align people in A order for bidding; however the company has always the right to deem this policy as necessary... So again, If you want to join the EASIEST place to work for in the GA arena in Europe, you are welcome; if not...Well you have U2 and the like to cover your ego sized aircraft.

[lifter91]

@ cl300: that says it all I guess...

Why is it that in the world of civil aviation everybody is making so much fuss about the type of aircraft ????

I've asked this several times, and nobody could really answer it;)

I personally like the small planes with a big(ger) percentage of VFR flying and smaller legs and more approaches (compared to the long range stuff, and I've flown short and long range alot).

Why:
because I LIKE flying manually, because I LIKE flying approaches, because I LIKE flying many legs a day, because I LIKE short field ops, etc...

Why do I like all this:
because I'm a pilot !

but of course, that's just my personal opinion;)

Cheers to all, Olli

[south coast]

lifter

I think it is a little foolish to think that flying by hand, doing lots of sectors, flying VFR and doing short field ops is the definition of being a pilot.

Perhaps in your opinion it is, perhaps it was a hundred years ago, but it certainly is not these days.

Being a pilot covers such a vast range of factors so people who want to do the long range and high level of automation flying have equal right to consider that that is what being a pilot is all about these days.

To be totally correct, a pilot is a person who guides a large ship into port.

We are aviators which I suppose describes more than just the flying side of the job.

[FourGreenNoRed]

Lifter

although I have sympathy for your thoughts I feel urged to recommend you some more patience before you make a statement like you did. Working for NJE is not smoking a pack of cigarettes in a Transall (hell, you prob had some other challenges . . .). Its far more then what you describe and unfortunatley much more then pushing buttons and flying a visual into Samedan. You are a Manager in a highly demanding environment, far away from any glamorous piloting clichee. (Pardon my bad french . . .). Those sectors can be hell and you will hate the company on day six, trust me it will come.

So back to the topic. NJE is more and more like any other big company in respect of seniority. We have the seniority ranking which taken by itself is useless. You have to combine it with the policy and then find out. Your time to upgrade is not really affected by the seniority list so far. Once the growth comes to an end (maybe soon) then the upgrade process might take somewhat longer. Fleetchanges are a diffrent story, asking solely the list doesnt do you any good.

If you want to work for NJE then some should consider the follwing:

- Size doesnt matter (well, my mistress says different . . .:\)
- Know the package
- Love the package
- Know the lifestyle
- Love the lifestyle
- Know the flying
- Love the flying

If you did all this and can answer with yes, then Smeagel is the only one who might stop you :ok:

[B-767]

Dear CL300 and others,

Here is what I wrote in another Netjets post

As I said before the only thing I do is passing on information that I got from a little bird that is reliable because he or she works there and I have seen the numbers that I used with my own eyes. To make it very simple 140 airplanes/1000 pilots= crew ratio of 3.5. My litlle bird flew 1/3 of the hrs it flew last year so 3 possibilities : overcrewed/too many airplanes are no work enough. Of those 140 airplanes about 40 are F2000 or upwards with about 160 crews on them= crew ratio 4. So the first 400 numbers in the seniority list will have a shot at one of these between now and 2016, which leaves the other 600 numbers ( and still hiring beyond)in the cold on a Bravo/H400/XL/XLS/H750/800/4000. If you join now will you remain on these airplanes for 10+ years. I would say the answer is definitrly yes and for sure rather optimistic than worst case as you say Redsbail.
I bet your number lies within the first 400 or maybe even a lot lower. As I already said, I by no means say Netjets is a bad company. I just wanted people having the intention to go there( like I had) having the same information that I got so that they can make a decision based on what they can expect if they join. The choice lies with the individual...For me, as I already said :=:=:=:=:=

Have a nice sunday and enjoy whatever you are doing

If Netjets wants to go the way a major airline goes i.e. 20 or more years to the top job than Netjets needs to give the pay and the benefits of a major airline...they DO NOT..... If you want to play in the major ligue act like a major ligue player

CL 300 I bet again in your case you have easy speaking because you are a low number in the list and that the next thing you will be asking for will be a bidding system according to seniority, for the leave requests...I am sure you are that kind of a guy

Believe me when I tell you that the experienced pilots netjets is using in its advertising will from now on remain far away from this company
Again nothing to do with the company being not a good company, it is just that if you decide to join you have to give TOO MUCH and you get TOO LITTLE

Enjoy Netjets and the rest of your life

:=:=:=:=:=

[CL300]

I'm not from the recruitment team nor the marketing or else team; you are correct I have a low seniority number around #100; and I'm on an EASy fleet.when I joined though I had the highest number ;)

However,
Whatever numbers you want to crunch in order to make them good about your goal, whoever birdie is singing, unless he or she is in the top management this is only to be considered as rumour. NOBODY at NJE , on the line has factual evidences of these computations nor they had been published as well anywhere in the company communication.

I'm curious about something, with a company with 200 aircrafts scheduled for 2009 +/- ; how would YOU do crew those ? Everyone Captain on G550 and remote controlling the Bravo's ?

People who joined 5,7,10 years ago or people who decided to join today or will decide to team up tomorrow, about a 1000 persons, and indocs being scheduled on a fast pace, all this is against your signs of decline.

Netjets IS NOT AN AIRLINE; so it cannot behave as one. If you want an Airline (scheduled) than IT IS NOT THE PLACE !

There is room for improvement, but this company is second to none when someone needs attention in the company, personal attention is paramount whatever people are saying; I hope that no one would have to use this extraordinary commitment towards the employees, but when it strikes they call present and help.

You can dump your feelings in your backyard, the truth is that you are not a possible joiner because you do not have this touch, that make this company so special, people like you who are sometimes recruited are leaving soon (churn rate), it is good for the seniority list....But in the top 100 I do not see a lot of move...But I'm only a pilot; I know nothing :O

[south coast]

I would have to agree that when one has a personal problem or issue which requires help/time off/understanding then NJ is very good about helping out its crews.

Sometimes other general company issues are not always addressed as quickly or as we would like them to be, but we are hoping things are moving in the right direction, all be it a little slowly.

[lifter91]

Hi people,

sorry it took me a while to respond, but I was gone flying...

Okay, here we go:

I certainly DID NOT want to offend anybody by expressing my opinion about the planes, so if anybody feels so: sorry about that.

Also I'm very much aware of the fact that there's more to being a pilot than the flying itself, and that's probably true for most of the airlines/companies out there. Flying by hand etc..., is by the way not my definition of being a pilot, I just like it. However, while being "stuck" in a specific system (with whatever company, not only NJE!), I believe that people are able to both deliver a good and safe performance AND have fun while working hard. It's kind of my motto ...

But I will take up your (southcoast and 4green0red) advices and I'll also try to be more patient next time:ok:.Thanks for that.

So gentlemen, take it easy and fly safe:)

lifter

[amdflyer]

So if I try to join NJE within 2008 (and succesfully pass the selection process) with 4000 hours total time, 1500 Jet PIC, some international experience and more to add, how many chances do I have to be considered for a large cabin airplane?

Thanks.

[south coast]

I would say none....

You are probably likely to go to either the Hawker 800/750 or the XL/S or worst case the Bravo or the Hawker 400.

Not being rude or blunt, just how I think it would pan our for you, and I tell you why.

There are no direct entry captains, so you would be going in to all fleets as a fo. FO's going to the large cabin tend to be slightly less experienced, but not always and because of the higher cost in training, they tend, but again not always, to stay on the fleet for 18-24 months before upgrading.

In your case, you meet the hour requirements immediately and therefore will be looking to upgrade asap, hence the mid-sized or small fleets.

[B-767]

south coast

It is not " would be none" but "definately none"
If you have bad luck you will be on the Bravo or the 400 fo the next 10+ years and it could easily take up to 18 months with the new bidding system before you get your command back.... If you have a bit more luck you will end up on a H750/800 or XL/XLS but still for at least the next 10+ years and again this is optimistic.
I wonder why it is so hard to believe what I wrote above, it is simply the thruth and the guys and girls working there know it is...all the rest is simply trying to hide the reality and make things look different and nicer than they are...Again I am not saying that it is a bad company...( I simply do not know, I know people who like it there and I also know a couple of them who are saying they will get out on the first occasion, so a bit like every where else)....but you have the right to know what is waiting for you if you decide to join...personally I am convinced it is not nice at all, and wether you have 15000 hrs or 3000 hrs it is all the same, you will be number 1000+ and therefore having to wait for a very long time for something nice and pls do'nt tell me you prefer a 400 over a G-550/7X...I do'nt think so.....
That is the reason why I said : No, thank you... and I am pretty sure I am not the last one...

Have a nice weekend

:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

[amdflyer]

No you have not been rude, no worries.
I am trying to see what to expect if I would join after my the completion of my conversion. I understand that you always start as a FO, so how true is the rule that if you have the requirements you are elegible to upgrade to CA after 6 months?

[south coast]

B767, for someone who applied and turned down the offer you seem very bitter and angry!

Are you now on a mission to deter every one just because either you didnt like it or they didnt like you?

I do work for them, and your figures are unproven, more a calcualtion down on the back of a fag packet, so you are basing your prediction on what you have heard and how you think it will work.

It is a good company to work for and if you joined BA or Virgin you would wait fifteen years to get a command, hang on, I know what you are going to say, that will be a 747 or a777 or a A380, well, a plane is a plane is a plane and after the novelty of a new plane wears off, it ends up coming down to lifestyle and the oeverall package.

NJ's package is not the best in the industry, but it is by no means the worst.

It offers a kind of lifestyle people want and enjoy, so get over the fact that you didnt join NJ!

[Capt Crash]

I have to agree with South Coast. B767 you are wrong, your numbers are based on things you may have heard in a hotel bar.

As I understand, ALL FLEETS GET PAID THE SAME. It does not matter if you are a year 6 Capt on the Hawker 400 or a year 6 Capt on the Falcon 7x, they get the same money. Why are we so vain over the planes we fly? I did my time on the smallest fleet and now I fly something bigger but, I had as much fun on the Bravo as I do on the Falcon. Before you ask, I have lost the rose tinted Raybans, I have been around a while.

Whatever happens, you will only do 3 years maximum on the small fleets unless you want to stay longer for the TRI/TRE.

B767, I ain't having a go but, you seem bitter about something, why?

Have a good weekend one and all.

[lifter91]

Gents, even if I don't work for NJE yet (starting soon:)) I can say this:

the Net Jet Package is very transparent, and everybody can get the information he or she needs. If it's not in the internet, you can always call them and they'll send you the info you're looking for. I tried this several times before deciding to accept their offer and it never took longer than a day or two for them to send me the info. (i.E. health insurance details, etc...) And of course they won't write in your contract when you're going to be CPT or when you can change fleets etc... They wouldn't be very smart if they did that.

So what I'm trying to say is that if you decide to work for NJE (or not), you should pretty much know what you're getting into. I myself looked around for several years before finally deciding to leave my old company, and I've seen packages a lot worse than the one NJE is offering.

Naturally I myself don't know much about NJE OPS and what it's like flying ViP's (yet), but I guess if you like it or not is really something that everybody has to find out for himself. (which by the way is why I think that starting as a F.O. and not as a CPT is actually a very good idea!)

lifter

[Moonwalker]

Netjets Europe is open for most European citizens. I can agree on the fact that NJE doesn’t have the best overall packet if you want to live in UK. But if you in general don’t really like the British food, your girls :}, the poor living standard or just happens to live somewhere else. Then you soon realize that the overall package might not be as bad as it can be for all you UK people. I know you all British guys measure the living cost in how much a pint cost ;), but if you look beyond that and concentrate on the important stuff…. then you soon will find out that even guys from the Nordic countries has lots to earn from joining Netjets!

[B-767]

south coast and capt crash

Absolutely not bitter. I just find it a shame that people are not telling the truth about what you can expect and what you can not expect when joining Netjets. My numbers are absolutely correct, if you say they are not then I must call you "people not telling the thruth" (politely said and not to offend anybody). Again I have nothing against this company but you should be told that there is a seniority system in place with its advantages and also with the disadvantages i.e. gone the upgrades in 6 months, gone the fleet changes after 3 years. The first is very important as most of the experienced guys joining are taking a serious paycut with in the back of their mind that it will be for a very short time...you and I know it isn't like this....
Tell me also why you have to sit in the right seat again? Companies like Private Air, TAG and Globaljet do not apply this policy and the pilots flying there are doing the same job as in Netjets and going to the same places....Again nothing personal are bitter but nothing but facts and the thruth and apparently you guys are afraid to admit al this although you know it is true.
I will not keep on repeating myself, so this was it for me...enjoy life and Netjets....

B-767
:=:=:=

[south coast]

B767

What makes you the definitive source on what numbers are correct, as you say, you dont even work for NJ, so all your info is second hand!

I dont deny there are in the region of a thousand pilots at NJ and if you join you will be a thousand and one, but that is no different to any other company.

As for your reference to having to wait so long for an upgrade, the policy says that once you meet the requirements, so for a high houred guy that could be realistically within six months, you have to submit a letter to your fleet manager requesting to be considered.

Your fleet manager will either reply with a yes or no.
Then you can start bidding for a captains position on a fleet.

With the number of planes on NJ's order books there are definitely places for people to upgrade swiftly for the next few years.

So how do you come to the conclusion you will have to wait years?

Also, people have become accustomed to quick upgrades and quick fleet changes to large cabins, and in actual fact this is not normal, name me one other company that offers such quick progression.

NJ has been able to do this historically because of their rapid expansion, but like with everything, it has slowed down and therefore so will the upgrading and fleet changing.(will = in the future, but not yet i dont think)

That is nothing to do with a bad company or management trying to screw its pilots, it is just fact and reality.

NJ has a policy of not hiring direct entry captains because it feels, whether you agree with it or not, that NJ would rather have everyone see the operation from the right seat for a period of time to get an understanding and feel for how, why and when things are done.

That is their right to have such a policy and do you complain about every policy or law in life that you dont agree with.

Your statement of, the experienced guys who join are taking a pay cut...well that in itself must say that they think the package and the wait is worth it and that they value what NJ has to offer much more than what they had at their previous employer or they wouldnt have left.

So if NJ is so unfair and bad, name me a better GA company that offers rapid upgrades, fairly quick fleet changes, a stable roster, the choice to live where ever you like in Europe, an above average salary, an excellent safety record and a slowly but surely move towards a better package.

I would like you to give me examples and facts of where what I have said is wrong.

Finally, the fleet bidding system is not even implemented as of yet (only a seniority list has been published), so how can you claim that you have worked out the time scales to get onto a large cabin, it is just impossible and nothing more than a guess!

It is just boring when people who have limited knowledge of the internal mechanics of the company start complaining about it, inaccurately at that.

[B-767]

South coast,

just to let you know how accurate my info is and that my numbers are correct: one of the very last people transferring to the G-550 had seniority number 185...so is this prove enough for you and anybody else that what I said is correct and to the point and that all the rest you are trying to tell me and the others is BS.....and by the way you can make your own calculation on how long it will take you to get on "big" :D:D:Dairplane......again nothing personal against the company but pls be so nice and honest to come forward with the truth.....Thank you Smeagel.....

Enjoy netjets by all means...:=:=:=:=:=

[south coast]

I dont dispute your friend is going to a GV, but how does that back the rest of your arguments up, it disproves your argument, because he has been in the NJ for less than 5 years, and on to a G5, not bad in my opinion.

[yacan]

B767
Giving a seniority No is like telling the name. How stupid is that?

:\

[B-767]

Even Dumbo and Miss Piggy are smarter than you are...because at least they admit when they were wrong....
You are the biggest.....pls fill in the blanks yourself, because only you can define your level of intelligence...
I know for a fact now that my little bird was right all the time...I think he/she must be very pissed with your seniority list and I bet a lot of others are....
I rest my case...and will keep on enjoying my big bird
:=:=:=:=

[south coast]

The more I read your posts the more I think you were not offered a position with NJ because for someone who turned it all down, you are very bitter and angry about it all.

Why are you so motivated about it if it is so bad?

Please explain this statement of yours, 'I think he/she must be very pissed with your seniority list and I bet a lot of others are....'

Why would he/she be pissed, we all wanted a seniority list and it has been drawn up the fairest way possible, being from when you joined the company and not when you upgraded.

So what is your probelm with that, that is how every seniority list is made.

And you still have not answered my question, your friend who has gone to the G5 has been in the company around 5 years, are you saying he got a bad deal?

Is your friend who is pissed with the seniority list leaving on account of how bad NJ is, for that matter, is your friend who is going to the G5 leaving because it is that bad?

Dont think so.

We are very lucky you didnt join, because you seem to be a whining twerp!

[CE550B]

B-767

Nobody promises you a G550 in 3 years after you join. No mather what company you work for. As SouthCoast said this seniority is fair and clear. If you don't like it don't join (please).

I hope that number 185 knows you namedropped him here.

BTW do you fly for TFL?

[redsnail]

Oh I dunno, one of the guys currently doing line training on the G550 has a "seniority" number closer to 300. :ooh:

Better write a crew report!!! := :E

[south coast]

Redsnail, are you talking about the guy B767 has referred to, as I believe he was on your fleet too?

[redsnail]

Nah different bloke. Then again, B767 could have just plucked a number out of the air. If the number is correct, I know him and he's a good bloke. He just has to remember the blockout when in Egypt. :E

Anyway, if you join any company you start at the bottom. There might be a company that is a better fit for some folks. That's freedom of choice. :ok:

At least NJE is still recruiting.

[Flintstone]

You been looking through my photo album reddo? The shot of the dayglo crew? :cool:

The way I read B-767's posts he's not necessarily saying that the person is his friend but that said person transferred to that fleet. Only those with access to NJE's bidding system will be able to work out who it is but it's still a poor show to publish the information.

As for the company still recruiting that's interesting. A cynical person might point out that the last time they overcrewed it was in anticipation of resignations in response to the imposistion of the new tax/SS arrangements.

'By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes'.

Or maybe not :E

[redsnail]

I couldn't believe you of all people not realising what the sun'll do! :\ This face looks familiar. :E What's your second citizenship??!! :}

Dunno how many'll be recruited this year. Out of my pay bracket. :bored:
Looked for you at the Thunderbird place, no joy. :O

[Deep and fast]

Hey flinty what are you trying to say about the current recruitment? I have applied and would like to get through, but are there storm clouds looming? I'm happy at my current job, but I can't get a base at the right end of the country hence my interest in Netjets. Got bills to pay so don't want to find myself jammed up a badgers arse with no job. :suspect: By the way what it the fixation with the G550? Why don't you try the small fleets people cos it's a fun machine! Oh and it gives me a better chance of getting it LOL :}

D and F :8 peace fellas

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

185 has DONE a G550 type rating, not rumour but fact. There are some G550 captains at 250-300 who transfered to the Gulfstream with some Hawker 800 captains at 120-170. This was the problem with the old system and i think the new seniority system will get rid of this, although it may take a while for all the guys higher up to go where they want. The problem is that all employees can look at everyone else's place, but no-one knows what that person have been asked, have turned down or requested to do.

SB

[Flintstone]

D&F.

I know nothing, just idle speculation.

[Deep and fast]

Cheers for that I was getting a bit worried about being last in first out. I really fancy a blast in the 7X tho.

D and F :8

[nr 185]

redsnail: You don't think red :\ is my colour??? ;)

[redsnail]

nr 185... well, if you had have been allowed off the aeroplane :E, you and flinty would have been mistaken as traffic stop signs. :}

[shneidertrophy]

I have to say I am with B767 on this one.

I do approve the general working of a seniority list but it does not go together very well with the policy of attracting DEC to fly on a right seat.

In my view you either have:

1) A seniority list which is clear, together with either DEC hiring because you need the experience but than straight on a left seat, or you dont attract captains at all unless they are very well aware they will be stuck on a right seat for several years.

2) No seniority list and you continue to base your fleet transfers and upgrades on qualifications and merit. In this case you are able to attract experience of DECs because they know they will be flying a right seat for a limited period of time.

In my opinion as well, this has everything to do with the financial aspect of it all. A capt at NJE touches around 7000-7500 euros/month while an FO barely reaches 4000 euros.

How can a company like NJE expect to be attracting Captains to fly a right seat for this salary, without a pre determined timeframe to upgrade?

The least they could do is attract these captains, as they do require the experience of weathered aviators, fly them on a right seat but at least pay them a salary which comes close to the salary of a captain!

In all honesty, I have been offered a job at NJE recently and I turned it down for exactly these reasons:

No timeframe

A too large step backwards financially

No security



Sorry guys, would have loved to fly for NJE and was really looking forward to it, but it just does not make any sense anymore.

Too bad for me I guess, but good luck to you all who are in allready. NJE is a very nice company, keep it that way!

But if you have 10 years + in aviation....

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

ST

No Security?

Not quite sure what point you are making there, care to expand abit. With the aircraft on order and deliveries due it's not going to be that long before you upgrade. One guy did two consecutive tours with me then was scheduled an upgrade course. Years to command i very much doubt.

SB

[redsnail]

As far as I know, seniority has no bearing on upgrades. That's on hours and merit. (as it's always been).

Fleet changes is now seniority influenced but if I understand the mix correctly, it's based on date of joining as well as what fleet you're on and a few other things. So, it's fairer and a lot more transparent.

Let's see if I have it correct. This is an example.

Mike, Bravo pilot, joined Feb 2006. (small cabin) Number 301.
Dave, Excel pilot, joined Feb 2006. (medium cabin) Number 299
Steve, 400 pilot, joined May 2004. (small cabin) Number 10

All now captains. (seniority played no part - just merit and hours)

Mike just wants to fly the G550.
Dave things long haul is death and wouldn't mind the Hawker 4000 or the Falcon 2000EX.
Steve, he just wants the 900EX.

With this simplistic example, unless there's a delivery of a Falcon 900EX soon, Steve (*10) will fleet change a long time AFTER the other two guys. Why? The 900 EX is a very small fleet.
Dave (*299) has a "fleet lock" of 3 years versus 2 years for the small cabin guys. Therefore, he can't change fleets before Mike who joined at the same time.
Now, if Mike realises that the G550 has many people with a "better" seniority number than him bidding for it, he can change his selection to "Falcon 2000EX". Since he's out of "fleet lock" earlier than Dave, he can bid for it. (the bidding system will show how many are "waiting" etc)

The first part of the new list has been implemented, now just waiting for the rest of it.
Please understand that this is my interpretation of the new system so it may be wrong and it is a very simplistic view of it. (I am just a line pilot)

[northern boy]

I'm starting in August and am hoping for something with a range of no more than a couple of thousand miles. After 6 years of long haul on a widebody Boeing a change would very welcome. Long haul sounds great if you haven't done it but believe me it starts to get to you after a while, being awake when you should be asleep and trying to sleep when the rest of the world is awake. The aircraft type soon becomes irrelevant when all you want to do is crawl into bed and stay there for a week. I'm glad I did it and certainly had some good times but once in your late forties I'm not sure that it is good for you in the long term. I suppose some folks can carry on doing it, I've known a few but I know a lot more who are looking to retire or go part time. As far as I am concerned the G550/7x is for the youngsters, I will be happy enough to eventually sit in the left seat of a Bravo/Excel or whatever until I can hang my boots up. My only worry is that I may have missed the boat (again) with upgrades although the postings here suggest otherwise. Oh well, nothing ventured...:)

[EatMyShorts!]

Hi Northern Boy,

a very healthy point of view, I think. I am still "young" and I am keen to do some ultra long-haul for a few years in the mid-future (when my seat-lock is over in about 5 years), but for sure not until the bitter end.

Your concerns regarding delayed upgrade are understandable, but are - what I guess - not really necessary. For the time being NJE keeps on expanding and we need commanders all the time. It looks like you got the hours and the experience, so you can expect to do the upgrade-assessment within a year doing your initial line-check. Nothing is for sure, but the future still looks very bright for us! Good luck and welcome to the club!

[northern boy]

Eatmyshorts

Ta for the kind words. I'm guessing but you are prehaps a follower of the Simpson family?
Hope you enjoy ULH, start storing up the sleep now mate, you are going to need it.

NB

[EatMyShorts!]

Doh! You found out that I like the Simpsons :D

ULH...it may be interesting for some time, as you mentioned, but one cannot do it forever. I have done some medium-hauls (6 to 8 hours) and as long as they take place during normal times, they are acceptable. Flying through the night, is really not easy and there I am with you: I don't need that all the time.

Anyways, back to topic ;)

[Iver]

What percentage of flying is truly long-haul (7+ hours) for NJE? Don't most of your airplanes stay within the Europe/Mediterranean region? I realise your airplanes can fly anywhere an owner wants it to fly (within its capabilities). Flights from Farnborough to Moscow or Paris to Athens, etc.? I know the Gulf region is popular (Dubai, Kuwait). Are the G550s/F7Xs/F900s/F2000EXs really flying trans-Atlantic, Asia and beyond all the time?

Just because you fly a F900 or G550 doesn't mean you will be flying long-haul all the time - right?

[CL300]

unfortunately this information is classified, :suspect:

However, yes there is utra long haul flights, and transatlantics are common, so common in fact that NTA holds a FAR129 certificate...

7hours are routine in the 2000EX; for the ratio between long haul and short/medium; you can always look at the CFMU to give you an idea for the ones originating from europe. Several hundreds flight a day, extrapolate the maths, you will have a picture..

[manligsak]

cl300

"If you want to join the EASIEST place to work for in the GA arena in Europe"

really, what about the private guys that fly 2-5 times a month, get paid significantly more and when they get somewhere nice they stay and enjoy the place for a few days in nicer hotels????

seems easier to me:O

[Iver]

CL300,

Thank you for your response. Can you tell me what the CFMU is for the unfamiliar?

[CL300]

manligsak cl300

"If you want to join the EASIEST place to work for in the GA arena in Europe"

really, what about the private guys that fly 2-5 times a month, get paid significantly more and when they get somewhere nice they stay and enjoy the place for a few days in nicer hotels????

seems easier to me

Privately owned or managed aircrafts are a gamble; can be extatic can be dreadful.
Netjets is consistent , always recruiting, salary, rosters are solid and stable, you can make more money with some operators, but if the guy goes mad overnight (or die) this is it..
this is why i say that this is the easiest GA place to work for in Europe, this is why the waiting list is so high to come in, with thousands applicants and a success rate of about 1 out of 14 if I remember well.
Balancing family and social life vs our flying addiction, this is what Netjets does best ( at least for me).
Everybody can have an opinion of course, open minded people , most of us are; LoL ( cf CN :\ )

Iver, google it...

[Flintstone]

I don't work for a single owner yet my life is far easier than it was with NJE. I'm sure I'm just the exception to the rule though :rolleyes:

Iver, google it... Hmmmmm, the pressure of the "...easiest job in Europe..." must be showing.;)




Iver. CFMU=Central Flow Management Unit. Here http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/cfmu/public/subsite_homepage/homepage.html

[manligsak]

cl300

i c your point but i still think that the private operators (most in my experience) are easier to work for. i.e. no paperwork, no reports for silly things, less flying, less new difficult airpots, no GRT's and online test on your free time, the five days off are actually not 5 days off anymore with all the extra work i.e. paperwork to do at home, and if the guy is decent (again, most in my experience) less difficult people to deal with and to come back to the thread, no senority lists and other stuff to figure out how it works, all togheter less hassle.

what u r talking about is different, it's more secure and in most cases better for the family, which is why i stay.......:*

[B-767]

Flinstone and other posters having a different opinion from the die hard Netjets guys I would only say one thing...let them in their knowledge that they have the best job in the world with the most time off, the best conditions and the less stress possible...it is hopeless to try to convince them from the contrary...I tried it with real facts and numbers....I was nearly cyber lynched.....the Netjets die hards consider themselves so smart ansd so superior ...
I think some of us know better....

Have a good weekend and enjoy your stress free lives and time off...

B-767

:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

[CL300]

After 25 years of corporate flying, from BIG corporation and proper flight department to private individuals through manufacturer support team; Netjets is the easiest for me, all things being considered. I might have been unlucky in the previous lifes, but it is too late to change anything.

People are finding problems with a structure when they are not 200% satisfied; my ego is on the low side (What is right been always more important than who is right); as a consequence I'm happy when flying, have a social life, and live by the sea-side. (I had managed to live by sea side before my netjets time though)

since there is no perfect place to work at, what suits oneself, is good for her/him; and it is definitely good for me.

Seniority, pension, etc..open items...evil is not everywhere..

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

B767

"i'll keep on enjoying my big bird"

Big bird? Lacking in other departments are we!!!

[spaniel]

He must be married to a fat lass!:oh:

[south coast]

B767

No one says NetJets is the best place to work, but it is by no means the worst place to work either.

Anyway, since it is SO bad, you are lucky they didnt want you, I mean you turned it down.

Either way, you didnt join, so let it go.

Even Flintstone, the dirty bugger, will tell you he had good times at NJ.

[Flintstone]

Jeez South Coast, you swore you'd never tell.

Yup, had some good times but that was in the old days. Sounds like a close call for all concerned that 767 didn't join (him/her included). Some people just don't fit in and some people just don't like certain places. :E

[bigmisterno]

Hello everybody,

can anyone tell me how is the seniority list used to be upgraded?
I explain myself: 6500 hrs - 4000 on a medium jet - some time as captain on big turboprop- joining soon: when will i be asked for a left seat?

Thank u all fr reply

[Duck Rogers]

Welcome bigmisterno.

At the risk of appearing rude you will find the answer to your question in the currently running Netjets threads. All you need is a little patience and some time to read.


Duck.

[CE550B]

Psst! Check post #87 and down, page 5. :E