500 hrs JAR multi crew in light jets

[Baron Von Mildred]

Hi
Does anyone have more info on gaining the 500 hours JAR multi-crew for issuance of ATPL, when flying the lighter GA stuff?

What I'm driving at is that some of the GA stuff like Kingair, Citationjet etc are approved under JAR/EASA to operate as single pilot, although in most cases they appear to be crewed with two. So, does this mean that flying them does or doesn't count towards the 500 JAR-OPS multi crew rule?

[Arkwright]

Hello again Baron!

Anything over 5700 kg and defined as two crew in the companys AOC will count toward the unfreezing of your ATPL.

So private KingAir or piston twin work is out, as is any flying, AOC or not, on an aircraft under 5700kgs.

Arkwright

[south coast]

Not true Arkwright.

I used my 1900 and King Air time to count as the 500 hours multi pilot time.

As LASORS says it must be a plane operated by 2 pilots and if it is a plane which does not require 2 pilots, then a letter from your employer stating the plane was operated under part 121 or was required under the aoc they can use this in lieu of 500 hours on a multi-pilot plane.

Although, obviously a multi pilot type rating is also required for the initial issue of the ATPL.

I got my ATPL without having 500 hours on a multi pilot type.

[Baron Von Mildred]

Thanks Arkwright

You've obviously done a bit of thinking on this since we last spoke....
However, this is obviously a contentious issue with some complications, reading posts from South Coast and other places.

Hi to South Coast, I see you are now out of Africa & in JAR land....
But, when you say a multi crew type rating do you mean an on aircraft certificated as only two crew under JAR/EASA?

[Arkwright]

South Coast,

I think we agree, but you misread my post!

As long as the aircraft is deemed two crew under an AOC than anything over 5700kgs counts.

Our new Mustang is JAA two crew and on an AOC, but because its below 5700kgs a pilot cannot unfreeze their ATP.

Arkwright

[Baron Von Mildred]

OK..... So what about the Kingair, the 200 is under 5700kg, the 350 is over, but I believe they have the same type rating under JAR? Both aircraft can be operated single or two crew.

[Olabade]

According to the JAR FCL-1:

"JAR–FCL 1.280 Experience and crediting...
..
..
...(1) 500 hours in multi-pilot operations
on aeroplanes type certificated in accordance
with the JAR[/EASA-CS]/FAR–25 Transport
category or the JAR[EASA-CS]/FAR–23
Commuter category, or BCAR or AIR 2051;"

So all FAR-23 certified aircrafts will do as long as they are operated in multi-pilot operations (stated in OM-A).

But the skill test for the ATPL must be done in MPA.

"JAR–FCL 1.295 Skill
(a) An applicant for an ATPL(A) shall have
demonstrated the ability to perform, as pilot-incommand
of an aeroplane type certificated for a
minimum crew of two pilots under IFR (see
Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.220 part B), the
procedures and manoeuvres described in
Appendices 1 and 2 to JAR–FCL 1.240 and
1.295 with a degree of competency appropriate
to the privileges granted to the holder of an
ATPL(A)."

Cheers.

Olabade

[Arkwright]

I know our KingAir 200 guys got an MCC exemption by flying the 200 with a two-crew remit under the AOC. I'm fairly sure that means that the CAA would also count it as multi-crew time for the un-freezing of ones ATPL.

I thought the 200 was over 5700kgs MAUW????
Maybe someone could correct me or confirm?

[Baron Von Mildred]

5670kg near enough http://easa.europa.eu/doc/Certification/Design_Appro/Aircrafts/TCDS%20EASA.IM.A.277.pdf

BVM

[south coast]

Olablade has answered all with the facts.

[init2winit]

BVM you may already know this but just to make you aware that you need to do an ATPL skill test as of January 2006 (I think).

[Baron Von Mildred]

Yes, saw the previous posts about it. 2006? .....wondered why I hadn't heard of it before. Beginning to wish I'd got it issued before they stopped issuing UK licenses.....

[south coast]

Explain the 2006 thing...

[READY MESSAGE]

I had this conversation with the CAA recently. If you operate a single pilot certified aircraft multi pilot, you must have multi pilot SOPs in place. The time counts towards your 500 hours. So, if you do 500 hours on a B200 you have satisfied part of the requirements to unfreeze your ATPL. However, you need to pass a ATPL Skill Test, which is your LST on your first MPA. FCL didn't state any difference between private or AOC. I currently fly a B200 on a private operation, the operator and insurance company insist on a multi pilot operation so why shouldn't the hours count.....

[Awyrennwr]

OK..... So what about the Kingair, the 200 is under 5700kg, the 350 is over, but I believe they have the same type rating under JAR?

Nope, they are two separate ratings under JAR:-

Beech 90/99/100/200 - sub 5700kg (Perf B)
Beech 300/350/1900 - over 5700Kg (Perf A)

[His dudeness]

And to be absolutely correct, the B200C, B200T and B200CT are OVER 5700kg but the same rating than the 200. However the german authority at least, charges the higher fee when entering the 200 rating because of the higher weight airplanes i the same rating. No KA200 experience does counts against the 500 hrs even if operated under AOC in Germany....
The CJ3 is basically the same. (above 5700)
Only FAR/JAR23 airplanes that count are the ones certified as "commuter":

B1900, Metro, DO228...

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Also if you are planning to do your first JAA 2 crew type at somewhere like flightsafety then even if you are doing a JAA checkride you will probably not be able to use this LST as your ATPL skilss test.

Most JAA examiners stateside are FAA Guys given a dispensation to conduct JAA skill tests, you can tell which ones as the licenses start with a 100******

You'll need to do a skills test with a UK TRE when you get back for ATPL issue.

Worth mentioning with the strong pound MPA TR's are cheap in the US.

[Baron Von Mildred]

South Coast
I was referring to Innit2winnit's post about the change in rules around Jan 2006.

Re: B200/B350 type rating, sorry, I was looking at EASA type certificates where they are lumped together. My mistake...

[south coast]

G-SPOT

When I did my initial MPA type rating at FSI in the USA, it also served as my ATPL skills test.

Many of my colleagues have done this too.

[init2winit]

South Coast I might be wrong here, (and often am) but don't you need the 500 hours multi-crew before you can do the ATPL skill test? I had real trouble unfreezing my ATPL and was told on the phone by the CAA that I needed the hours before I did the test.
Would appreciate if you or anyone can confirm this.

[south coast]

Yes, the 500 hours Multi-Crew are required before doing the ATPL skills test.

All the hour requirements as stated in LASORS must be fulfilled before doing the skills test.

Just re-read your posting and I am now wondering if you are confusing 500 hours multi crew with the Multi Pilot Airplane type rating.

I had over 500 hours on a B1900, which as Olablade posted is a FAR/JAR 23 plane and the time on this counts as 'multi pilot hours' even though it is not a 'multi pilot airplane'.

If you dont have the 500 hours 'multi crew' then even when you do your first 'multi pilot airplane' type rating this cannot count as the ATPL skills test.

You would have to double the skills test up with an LST some time down the road once you have 500 hours multi crew.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

[rightbank]

Nope, they are two separate ratings under JAR:-

Beech 90/99/100/200 - sub 5700kg (Perf B)
Beech 300/350/1900 - over 5700Kg (Perf A)

I've only ever flown the 200, but I've got the 1900 on my licence as well.

On one line its the 90/99/100/200 and on another the 300/1900. Doesn't include the 350 though.

[His dudeness]

Isn´t the 350 officially the B300?

The 300/300LW as we know them are the 200 airframe with the 1050shp engines. (-67´s?)
The 350 is the longer version. In Germany at least, the 350/1900 is one TYPERATING and the 90-200 is a CLASSRATING. If you have all together, you´re lucky I´d guess or the rules have changed.

[Projecting GAP]

Continuing with the 500 hrs multi crew time, can anyone confirm if you can count multicrew sim hours (e.g. MCC, type rating course, recurrents etc)? LASORS does mention 100 hours sim time can be counted towards your ATPL but the CAA haven't confirmed that you can use these multicrew sim hours to help unfreeze your ATPL.

Cheers!

[FORTL4]

I'm looking into the 500 multicrew hour issue as well and I noticed that the wording in LASORS 2008 differs from that of LASORS 2007.

In the 2007 version, it explicitly recognised hours from "Multi-Pilot Operations on Single Pilot Airplanes". This is in addition to the standard recognition given to hours earned on JAR-25 and JAR-23 Commuter Category airplanes.

In the 2008 version, the "Multi-Pilot Operations on Single Pilot Airplanes" recognition is no longer there. Does anyone know why???

Also, to complicate the discussion slightly, note that the Beech 350 is a JAR-23 Commuter Category airplane, which is recognised by LASORS for the multi-crew experience requirement. But the Beech 200 is a JAR-23 Normal Category airplane and, based on the 2008 LASORS wording, would not count.

Does anyone know what's happening to those seeking to claim multi-pilot hours on aircrafts like the B200?

[Baron Von Mildred]

I guess some comment from the CAA is needed on this.....

[Finals19]

Interesting debate...and to add a twist..

I have an MCC exemption based on 500+ hours multi pilot operations in a PA31 Navajo. We were two crew as our AOC required it. I am not sure whether EASA view a PA31 as a JAR 23 commuter aircraft (can't remember the reg, but I think its to do with passenger seats no?) but I think not.

Does this therefore put me in a situation whereby a) obviously its classed as multi-pilot for purposes of MCC, but b) for the issuance of an ATPL the multi pilot hours will not count? (most likely not JAR 23)

[samca]

Hi,

I would like to know if the multicrew sim is valid for the 500 multi, in spanish DGAC said: "No it is only for the total 1.500" so I´think that unfourtunately is not valid.:{

regards