MoD fury as Brown wields axe

[LFFC]

From the Sunday Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3382397.ece).

A SENIOR defence official has warned that the armed forces are heading for a “train crash” because the government is starving them of funds for vital equipment.
.
.
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MoD officials have been struggling to prepare pruned-down spending plans in advance of a meeting of defence chiefs and top civil servants this Thursday, which will thrash out the final details of the cuts. A week later the plans will be presented to ministers who have insisted the cuts must be made by stealth, according to MoD sources.
:mad:


It comes as no surprise, but this sounds particularly worrying:

Both the prime minister and Des Browne, the defence secretary, have made it clear that to avoid political embarrassment no major programme can be seen to be cut, the sources said. Big programmes must be pushed back into future years while other items on the budget suffer harsh cutbacks.

[Tigs2]

Well maybe the PM and Des will sleep well in their beds, knowing that the security of the Nation can be undertaken by the management and staff of Northern Rock, who have just had £ 25 Billion thrown at them. To my knowledge its been about two hundred years since the last mutiny, but the government seem to want to push it. The reason major projects must just be delayed is to keep jobs/votes alive now, and when they do lose at the next election it will all be blamed on the party in government at the time of the next fiasco.

I hate to think of how this will hit the morale of the troops in the sand pit. If its true, and i trust the newspaper, then it is shameful. Could be a lengthy thread LFFC.

Chugalug2 and I had a minor (gentlemanly) scuffle on one of the other threads this evening, but one thing he said needs strong consideration. If we all stand back and let it happen (civvie and military), then it will. Sadly it is some time to the next election. Maybe I will take a walk through the park up to speakers corner in the morning:E

I wonder (if its true!!) what options are open to us?

1. Down tools?
2. Some mass media publicity drive?
3. A peaceful, we are no longer going to work?
4. Commanders order there troops to down tools?
5. CDS requests an audience with HM?
6. Mass public rally in London?
7. A petition?
8. Do nothing and allow the military to decline in line with the country, then when an islamic takeover is ready, it will be a peice of pi**?


I wonder what option will happen???

I doubt the boys out fighting think the part time minister is really sincere in his backing of them at the moment.

[D O Guerrero]

Lucky then that they've just ordered the last 5 people who aren't doing anything into Kosovo (well, 1000) - that'll help.
Personally, were I still in, I'd leave! But would that be just what they were expecting...?
If CDS and the other Chiefs of Staff had any degree of decency they'dl resign en masse. Should make the point quite nicely before everybody else decides to walk out....
When I was in (not too long ago), it often occurred to me that the forces were approaching bankruptcy but everyone used to look at me as if I was mental when I said it. Seems I'm not the only one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/17/narmy117.xml

[Dan D'air]

Who cares if it dissolves into ethnic cleansing?? At the very least, it would stop all the feckers being here and descending into the pimping, drug dealing and arms-smuggling for which they are renowned:D. I was there in '99 and they really are an evil bunch of people. Independence today?? Hopefully it will give them the civil war impetus that they need to finish the job once and for all.

[Rakshasa]

Last one out, turn off the light.... Oh wait, light bulbs have been cut from the budget, (don't need them if everbody's out of the country 6 months of the year!) :mad:

[Wingswinger]

Just to remind us all - £159Bn per year spent on social security and £104Bn per year spent on the NHS with the overwhelming proportion of the increases of the past ten years going on pay rises.

[tucumseh]

“Both the prime minister and Des Browne, the defence secretary, have made it clear that to avoid political embarrassment no major programme can be seen to be cut, the sources said. Big programmes must be pushed back into future years while other items on the budget suffer harsh cutbacks”.


The 3 pillars of procurement trumpeted by MoD are Time, Cost and Performance. Political meddling has ALWAYS forced programmes to slip (by simply freezing them). Typically, if you freeze a programme 6 months, payments will be spread over an extra year. The same meddling salami slices programmes, cutting quantities (which in turn increases the Unit Production Cost, reduces spares and often forces MoD to pay a premium for quicker turn round time, to compensate for lack of spares). And DEC/OR have ALWAYS been “encouraged” to reduce their Performance requirements. The book tells you Key User Requirements (KURs) are sacrosanct and virtually untradeable. This has been nonsense for many years. Projects routinely enter Service with very few KURs met.

At a more esoteric level, Technology and System Integration Readiness Levels are vitally important. This MANDATED requirement has, again, been diluted. CDP ruled long ago that integration could be waived, yet contracts paid off IN FULL. This very often renders aircraft functionally unsafe. For a good example of a fatal accident where equipment was physically safe, but functionally unsafe due to lack of systems integration, see Tornado / Patriot (which CDP was warned about). The BoI report makes this crystal clear, yet years later CDP’s rulings are still upheld by Min(AF).

There is nothing sinister in the timing of the announcement. The timescales for PR08 were set long ago and everyone expects this each year. However, it looks like some big programmes are going to have to compromise on Time, Cost and Performance. What annoys me however, is this process will hide some embarrassments, and dress them up as “fiscal prudence”. Programmes which have already spent the money, but have not delivered on Time, Cost or Performance, may seek to hide behind any cuts. I think the Army will suffer badly. Everyone knows BOWMAN is a disaster, especially at Company level and below (which is where the VOLUME of equipment is). For example, on 26.7.06 the NAO reported (page 47) that the VHF radio, vital at Section and Platoon levels, is to be replaced “by another programme”. That is, it’s sod all use, a fact confirmed by the User 4 years BEFORE the contract was let, and thousands will be ditched. BUT, what must give in the “other programme” (widely assumed to be FIST - Future Integrated Soldier Technology) to afford such waste? Then look deeper and consider the System. The VHF set comes with a User Data Terminal which, technologically, is somewhere between the Sinclair and Commodore. Unsurprisingly, and as predicted years ago, it cannot run the much vaunted BCIP software (four applications for quite important things like Fire Control and Medical). Who will replace the UDTs and software which is now some years old and still not working? Yet more cuts for the unfortunate replacement programme.

Forgive me for talking about a Green programme – it should have been Purple but the Air side has been largely ignored, which “another programme” must also compensate for. I’m trying to illustrate the sheer waste that occurs in defence acquisition (not just procurement). You can forgive someone trying his best to deliver cutting edge kit, and just falling short. If you don’t try, you never succeed. But the kind of waste I describe is common place, has been identified in infinite detail to just about everyone up to and including Min(AF) and PUS; and the only response I ever heard was “this is of no concern to MoD(PE)”. (The 2* who oversaw Chinook Mk3, which rather proves my point). Oh, and it’s a disciplinary offence to highlight or try to prevent it. For every cutback they are open about, there are probably many more hidden cases such as I describe.

[cazatou]

Doubtless the cuts will not affect assets based or procured in Scotland - that is where the S of S for Defence has his Primary job.

[Chugalug2]

Chugalug2 and I had a minor (gentlemanly) scuffle on one of the other threads this evening,

Very gentlemanly Tigs, as one would expect, but as I too learned a valuable lesson it was time well spent. :ok:

Action this day? I would suggest a two pronged attack. Frontal assault on HMG who, if indifferent to their obligations to the Defence of the Realm and to HM Forces, are very sensitive to being outed for same (witness climb down re Mr Pun VC in which you played some large part I recall :)) Flanking attack to turn HM's Loyal Opposition from present expediency based inaction to one of doing their job, ie opposing this bunch of power obsessed crooks! As Tuc reminds us, the biggest foe by far is the MOD. Any campaign to reverse the continual defence cutbacks must go hand in hand with a demand for root and branch reform of the Ministry of Waste. With your indulgence Tigs, I once again publish the site that puts you in direct contact with your MPs and ensures that they follow up on your message to them, or marks them down for not doing so.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
Despite our little tiff I still believe in Democracy. It is in truth all that we have, so use it or lose it!:=

[hellsbrink]

I know I ain't an expert, but after reading the article in the Times this bit stuck in my head:

The mutinous mood over Gordon Brown’s tight rein on military spending follows criticism of the MoD last week by coroners investigating the deaths of British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. They accused it of failing to provide troops with adequate equipment.

Isn't that sort of thing now worth taking to court under the assorted acts of parliament? Sounds like manslaughter to me, as the MOD certainly did not do enough to protect it's "employees" ('elf and safety anyone?)


Let's face it, something has to be done to nail that shower of poop in Whitehall

[LFFC]

Looking After Our Forces the Swiss Toni Way (http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/2008/02/looking-after-o.html#more)

The announcements designed to disguise the cuts are expected to include a series of relatively low-cost contracts for the programme to build the Royal Navy’s two new aircraft carriers like last week’s announcement of a £34m programme to prepare the Rosyth dockyard to build the carriers. But the start date for actually building the carriers will be delayed for two years to save cash, while the Royal Navy will be largely confined to port and will lose all four of its Type-22 frigates plus one of its newer Type-23 frigates.

The RAF will see progress on its new future strategic tanker aircraft programme but faces a number of major cuts, including the loss of two of its Tornado GR4 ground attack squadrons and the closure of a number of bases. The army will finally get new armoured vehicles – repeatedly put off due to the cost of new ships and aircraft - but they will be in lower numbers than expected and army bases will have to close.

[Beatriz Fontana]

Rakshasa,

Have you ever walked past the MoD MB after dark? Believe me, they leave the lights on....

[Dan D'air]

Beatriz,

It's just such a shame that although the lights may well be on, there is no-one at home.............

[chappie]

i have just seen the headline on the paper and my blood is boiling.
it makes me soo mad that the fine institutions that keep this land safe and well are always the first to suffer. this is so wrong.

tigs2 if it's a petiton you need then i'm your man....well girl actually but you catch my drift.

in one way it feels like what's the point but to be honest everything is worth a try. look at the herc safety petiton that i organised, that suceeded. i know i am disillusioning myself, as of course it was the immense amount of work done by nige gilb and all the others and of course you guys out on the shop floor.i do have other things in the pipeline for the future and there is plently of fight left in me. it is only right and just that the inapprpriate spending stops and a proper budget which is controlled by those not in their offices who have no knowledge of the real needs stops...phew! i hope that makes sense.

hellsbrink, i am all but a few weeks awy from the start of the actual inquest into my brother and the crews death on XV179 and with the unremitting findings of coroners of unlawful deaths etc of those who have lost their lives in theatre ring in my ears. please let me assure you and others that as families we do not walk away and leave it, we continue to fight. sadly these things take time and with the MoD being more slippery than a slippery thing in the world of slippery on planet slippery it gets very hard to find a way to actually make them take any responsibility.we will bring them to answer.

wingswinger, the money might be going into nhs but it's not on my payrise. i live from paypacket to paypacket and as i have a few more days till i get paid i am left wondering how the hell i will even be able to afford my daughters school dinners and nappies for the little one. that is not the life that our managers lead, yet like you i am on the shop floor, it is me who has peoples lives in my hands and sometimes my ability to do my job is compromised as i don't even have the supplies to look after them like i should. that all changed when they started to run hospitals like a business and i daresay this is what is happening to the forces.

we must stick together and keep the faith.:ok:

[BEagle]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/swissdes.jpg

[Beatriz Fontana]

BEagle,

:D:D:D:D:D

[Da4orce]

BEagle :D

Unless the political apathy in this country suddenly ends then I just can't see anything changing. I know we elect the government and not the Prime Minister but we have a leader that was not democratically elected running our country into the ground.

Wait for a general election and it will be too late, what is needed is political activism by the general public. We have the power in this country and the sooner we realise that and harness it the sooner Browne will be gone. Petitions have there place but marching a million angry citizens past number 10 sends a much louder message.

:eek: hold-up I think a surveillance van just pulled up over the road!

[EC Does It]

BEags,

That was simply, Outstanding.

[Beatriz Fontana]

Quoting from today's Telegraph:

The move to deploy to Kosovo was described by MPs and former military cheifs as "irresponsible", "demented" and accused the MoD of being "bankrupt".

So who sets the defence budget? That'll be the Chancellor. And who has been the Chancellor for the previous decade? That'll be the PM then.

As much as we rant about Swiss, the real rant should be directed to the very top of the political tree. If the PM sends us into war, the PM should cough up. Simple.

(ranting in the pub, posting via I-phone)

[minigundiplomat]

I don't see any news here. We have been getting shafted since 1997, what did you think was going to change?

The public know more about the nature and depth of our shafting, but have other priorities....inflation, fuel, food costs, mortgages, house prices etc. They do care, but are weighed down by the fact that Nu Labour has managed to turn every other aspect of the nation to sh1te already.

I am quietly seeing out the 2 years to my IPP and then going. So are many others. Unless you can see things changing with a Tory government (economy yes, defence no) then either PVR are leave at the earliest point.

Just my take on things.

[Krystal n chips]

Whilstn there is a very valid justification for the condemnation of the tertiary level sub protozoans in the MoD and Gov't,and I hate to sound negative here, but engendering the great British public to support the UK Mil ain't going to happen.

Why ?....well once the "darling boys" escalated their campaign to the UK mainland..and everybody stopped wearing uniform in public, so did the public stop realising we have Military personnel....most only see the Mil in terms of Trooping the Colour, Reds, SAR Helo's and unless they live near a Mil base, service personnel are unlikely to feature in the publics lives. A distinct lack of PR at times also compounds the problem re public awareness of the Mil functions....and of course they have other, more important concerns..like the football and "strictly come reguritated ham actors" etc...there is also one more issue shortly to hit home..it's called a recession and credit crunch..fiscal hardship for many looms....so the chances of the Mil getting even a glimmer of support are virtually nil.... The Great Leader and his acolytes...and all those sweet young things with their PPE's employed in "policy" units are divorced from reality..but they ain't that stupid when it comes to assessing the interests of Joe Public. Which is why, sadly, I feel the cuts will happen..and by then of course..it will be to late.

[Turn and Burn]

Don't suppose we could get the Pongos to park their tanks outside Westminster and show Mac Broon where real power resides. There would be no intervention from the EU. If they are frightened of taking on the Taliban they would be terrified of crossing the channel.

[Whossat Forrus]

T & B. Why do you think this bunch of wierdos are trying to run down the Armed Forces in the first place. It is this very possible scenario they will bank against. Running down the scale of the threat by destroying morale, equipment, supplies and manpower (largely achieved by finding any convenient fight to get large numbers killed / badly injured) and then dismissing critics of Noo Labour should prevent the tanks arriving outside the door of Number 10 when they finally hand the keys to The Republic of The Disunited Kingdom to the real political masters who have promised great things, such as presidency of a great nation as big as Bushy has got.:ugh:

[Len Ganley]

On the one hand -
£25Bn of taxpayers money to bail out Northern Rock.

On the other -
armed forces are heading for a “train crash” because the government is starving them of funds for vital equipment.


Sums up where HMGs' priorities lie.:(

[endplay]

"The official, a senior defence equipment capability manager, resorted to black humour, portraying the Treasury as an axeman who has cut off the arms of his MoD victim and is saying: “Stop whingeing . . . at least you have got your legs.”

A highly apposite choice of metaphor considering the condition of some of our injured troops, I don't think.

[soddim]

Why fight it? Why not accept that the democratically elected government just do not want you. Act accordingly and leave - when you stop banging your head against the brick wall life feels a whole lot better.

Eventually it will dawn on them that they have no power any more and maybe some small dissident group will kick their backsides out of Whitehall before the next opportunity to con the British public at an election. It would be wonderful to watch them trying to cobble together a defensive force from the few remaining backside lickers in MOD.

[iccarus]

My plan?

March into parliament with a battalion of troops in full riot gear, grab gordon, take him down to an assortment of the worlds press and then tar and feather him...............................

Nice!

[BackfromIraq]

I feel I must add, further to the financial facts and figures attributed to the Welfare State and the NHS, that over the last 10 years Labour have been VERY canny.

They've created a state where 12-year old mothers get a council house and benefits to spend however they want. Or even get pregnant to get a council house.

They give a 40-year old bloke with no qualifications and 14 kids two council houses an £40k per year to feed and clothe them. His comment, 'I can't earn £40k or anywhere near that,' so he stays at home with no incentive to be educated or work to contribute and his kids are likely to grow up with the same lack of work ethic.

They're now talking of paying children (and parents) to take exercise and eat healthily, in spite of the fact that fresh vegetables and other healthy options are often cheaper than the ready-meals and take-aways that these people eat.

They've created a sub-nation of voters (12-year-old mothers excepted, but I'm sure THEIR mothers aren't going to vote against this policy) whoare so totally dependent on handouts that they cannot afford to give up the welfare state and will, therefore, never vote for a political party who advocate a cutting of this welfare, and therefore a population who will only vote to keep Labour in power.

I don't have an answer but I believe that clothing and food coupons would be a start, and would stop some of the cash being spent on cigarettes and cheap cider, along with the state benefits reducing after a short period to the bread-line to encourage people to get off their warm behinds and go and find work; do they think I skip along the road to work with a smile in my heart every morning? Maybe I'm lucky: I enjoy my job 90% of the time, but I'd much rather be asleep at 0800.

I've watched university education be devalued over the last 10 years to the point where a bin-men will need/be able to do a degree in 'Refuse Technology' rather than a willingness to crawl out of bed a 0500 (and I've had to do it to pay my way).

We need to mobilise and motivate the silent majority, the middle classes who're being taxed back towards poverty for having a work ethic, who've been criminalised because the own a car and get them to VOTE, not retreat apathetically into the darkness shrugging their shoulders. Proportional representation would be a start, but Dave sticking to his guns and not responding to every little thing that the government (and I deliberately use a lower case 'g') do, but preaching and motivating the people who identify with him.

Rant over.
:mad:

[BEagle]

Compulsory abortions for pregnant kids who are younger than 16 years and 9 months of age.

No unemployment or housing benefits to be paid for those with more than 2 kids.

And that's just for starters......

When will these brat-spawning untermensch be forced to accept that, if they can't afford their brats, they must keep their d*cks in their pockets?

[JessTheDog]

The situation of under-funding of the Armed Forces is not new....it goes back decades, centuries etc.

There are a number of new ingredients in this particular situation:

- The Armed Forces are not simply for defence of the realm or attacking somewhere else. They are an arm of government. This extends into the PR realm. The government need to be seen to be doing something - simple, they send in troops. Hence the Kosovo deployment, Afghan reinforcements etc. Doing nothing or saying "we can't manage" would not be the correct message to send to the electorate and may cost opinion poll points.

- There is a genuine belief that the message can be spuin to internal and external audiences regardless of the reality.

- Parliamentary accountability and standards in public life are easily the lowest in living memory. Lying is routine, whether to internal or external audiences.

I suggest a petition in the public domain signed by serving personnel to express their discontentment. It would be a breach of the new DIN but that is an ill-conceived draconian gag in any case. If enough signed then there would be a massive impact and those signing would be immune from charges or administrative action by virtue of numbers and public support. The only way the government will act is if inaction will cost more in political terms than action.

[Ali Barber]

No money and the last reserves deploying to Kosovo - would now be a good time for the firemen/police to strike/work to rule? Might be a way to see off this government without having to stage a coup - if we had anyone left here who could take part!

[tablet_eraser]

I suggest a petition in the public domain signed by serving personnel to express their discontentment. It would be a breach of the new DIN but that is an ill-conceived draconian gag in any case. If enough signed then there would be a massive impact and those signing would be immune from charges or administrative action by virtue of numbers and public support. The only way the government will act is if inaction will cost more in political terms than action.

I'd sign it. But then, I put in my PVR a year ago, and June 3rd is my last working day, so I'd have nothing to lose. I'll be gutted to leave my friends, but thrilled to leave an organization starved of cash and bereft of leadership.

Roll on June 3rd.

In the meantime, the only sufficiently public display of anger would be a demonstration in London. I think the parallel between angry troops demonstrating against the Government, and the anti-war demos of 2003, would guarantee headlines. But such action would also threaten participants' careers, so it's unlikely ever to happen; so, maybe it's time for veterans to take a stand on behalf of their serving comrades?

[Grimweasel]

I'm sure that Argentina/China et al are laughing all the way to the tank park with these cuts. It beggars belief that HMG think less of Defence than other stupid lefty social programmes that keep useless oxygen thieves in flats, paid for by the Tax payer. I'm sick of handing out taxes to house these vermin that have cash etc handed to them on a platter.
The best thing we can all do is leave. After all why should one put one's life on the line fighting for a public / government that couldn't give a toss, to be frank??

It's all well and good handing out money to these low life idiots that have no ambition in life other than to sponge off the state, but without defence of the national interests they may be no 'state' in the future.

Did HMG not cut the services back to bare bones in the 30's just prior to WWII?? In a world with diminishing natural resources and an insatiable global demand for them, we need to start building a credible defence force to protect our resources etc from other states, not cutting them to the bone!

I really hope that wretch Brown comes a cropper with this one and leaves a legacy as the man that broke the UK

[edward england]

Put my papers in to leave last Autumn having been 99% sure it was the right decision, I will now sleep well tonight being 100% percent sure that now is the right time. I'm sad to leave and will miss many people, but I won't miss the continual feeling of being deserted by a spineless government. Des Browne - I bet you don't sleep as well as I do!

[Regie Mental]

No, I bet he sleeps soundly every night.

[SirToppamHat]

In the interests of sticking with democracy for the timebeing...

What's to stop a Serviceman registering to vote by making a 'Service Declaration', for a postcode of, say, KY3 9HX (Burntisland), and thereby voting in the Parliamentary Constituency of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath?

I know this right exists for Sevice pers posted overseas, but I understood we in the UK (and our dependants) could vote in the area where we would choose to live if we were not in the Armed Forces. Can anyone verify this?

Mr Brown won his seat with a majority of 18,000. 18,000 service voters added to the electorate for his constituency might focus his attention somewhat.

Of course, we would all have to agree which alternative to vote for - may I suggest that Monster Raving Loony might send an appropriate message?

STH

[Guzlin Adnams]

:= I could have a huge rant but two words will do me...
Brown out !:mad:

[Fugazi1000]

Brown has been slowly but surely pushing his version of a Marxist state onto the UK. The UK is almost there. Sadly there are very few who can (or want) to do much about it, not least the dwindling armed forces.

Sadly. :{

[passpartout]

"When will these brat-spawning untermensch..."

Probably best to keep your personal politics out of this Beagle.

I think that we should face facts. We are devalued. We are also utterly reliable. We won't strike or mutiny. Our bosses won't resign on a point of principle.

So who cares what we think?

[Beatriz Fontana]

Brown has to realise that there are rough men who help people sleep peacefully at night.

They are our armed forces. That was a quote from Orwell.

[Dan D'air]

We get the government that we deserve.

But we really did not deserve this one.

[soddim]

Simple solution - stop helping.

Maybe when people stop sleeping safely they will get off their backsides and sort this lot out.

[Beatriz Fontana]

iccarus,

After the magnificent evening I've had out in the Surrey hinterlands this evening, I could easily join you with a few others.

Still serving, ex-serving and ex-reserve alike, we were all in agreement. It's gone to rats, something has to be done and it will take STILL SITTING chiefs, not - with respect - the retired chiefs, to stand up for the rest of us.

It's a b:mad:dy travesty. I'm bitterly angry tonight.

[Tigs2]

Beatriz,
I just think that you and I could be the people to start the revolution. do you reackon she has the fire D?? I am sure you do. B I am up for it in Spades. I have a campaigne and nothing to lose!!! ( I know i have 3500 Ghurkas to support me:ok::ok:). Lets doooooo it!

By the way (P) If i am dead in the next two days you know why!!:}:}

[LBGR]

Last one out switch the light off.

Great, lets all go lads, and watch the forces fall apart. And it can all be someone elses fault when we no longer rule ourselves in ten/twenty years time. Shouldn't someone of done something? :suspect:

Yes someone bloody well should have. And it is about time the government realised this.

Everyone PVRing is not the answer at all. As much as we are mis-treated, someone has to do it, which, I know, puts us in a difficult situation. But how to make the government realise the error of their ways is a different matter and one, if I am honest, I don't have an answer to.

This country needs another Churchill. Someone to stand against the popular opinion and warn this country of its impending doom.

[Wingswinger]

Brown has to realise that there are rough men who help people sleep peacefully at night.


Actually, he needs to realise that he can't sleep peacefully at night because there are "rough men who stand ready to visit violence" upon him. (sorry, George)

[mutleyfour]

So, can I suggest those that wish to add the "Get out" posts leave this thread alone so that the rest of us whom would like to pursue some sort of action can plan and organise something.

Tigs and Beatriz, just let me know what the general idea is and I will endeavour to clear my diary.

[HectorusRex]

RAF and navy hardest hit by £4.5bn MoD cuts
• Overstretched armed services facing crisis
• Army chiefs warn Britain fighting on too many fronts

• David Hencke and Richard Norton-Taylor
• The Guardian,
• Monday February 18 2008
•http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/18/military.foreignpolicy

Treasury proposals to cut £4.5bn from the defence budget over the next three years will be discussed by senior civil servants and military chiefs this week amid warnings that the armed forces are overstretched and facing a crisis.
The cuts are described by a Whitehall insider as the largest since the end of the cold war, and have provoked private fury from military chiefs. They say Britain's soldiers are not properly equipped and are deployed on too many fronts including Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo.
A senior MoD official has warned that the existing equipment is "unaffordable", that the ministry is heading for a "train crash", and that a budget squeeze risks "mortgaging the future" of the armed forces.
Internal MoD documents show that the armed forces will get a real cash increase of just 0.6% this coming financial year, significantly less than the 1.5% annual average rise over the next three years quoted by ministers. Even the higher figure would have meant cuts of more than £1bn a year.
The squeeze on the defence budget is even more severe because the cost of weapons systems is increasing much more than the costs of other goods and services, defence officials say.
At a crunch meeting on Thursday, officials and military chiefs are expected to propose cuts and delays in the equipment programmes of all three branches of the armed forces. Their proposals are due to be presented next week to ministers, who will then have to take the difficult decisions.
The main impact of the cuts will be on the Royal Navy and the RAF, with the hard pressed army escaping the main savings - although it is still likely to have fewer and less sophisticated new battlefield vehicles.
The main blow for the navy will be a proposal to halve the number of Astute submarines at Barrow. This could lead to job losses in the constituency of John Hutton, the business secretary, who has been opposing the cuts. Reducing the number of submarines by 50% would leave the Barrow yard with a gap before the nuclear submarines to replace Trident need to be built and there will be fears from the trade unions that workers could be laid off, losing some of the country's skills base.
The decision to cut the number of submarines in service would reduce this section of the navy to the level of European nations such as the Dutch. However, the counter argument is that Britain no longer needs such a big navy.
The government is confident it might get more work for Scottish yards in Rosyth and the Clyde that would be hit by the delay in ordering the two new aircraft carriers and cancelling two destroyers.
Another big problem will be cutting the number of Eurofighter Typhoon jets. Originally the government hoped that Saudi Arabia might be interested in buying fighters built for the RAF. But following the recent court case challenging the government's decision to drop the fraud investigation into BAE arms sales, relations with Saudi Arabia have plummeted.
This will leave the ministry having to find compensation from a reduced budget to pay off BAE Systems for lost orders as well as the likelihood of fresh redundancies.
A more controversial measure to save money that could be discussed by the MoD is whether to expand the use of mercenaries abroad. This would amount to a form of privatisation and would raise questions about accountability.
Ministers may also have to look at other areas in the MoD to see if the work can be privatised - though they recently rowed back over plans to privatise training.
Officials are likely to advise ministers that it is politically easier to delay than cut. However, where there is no alternative to cuts, they are expected to argue that better capabilities mean that the armed forces do not need the number of ships, planes, or fighting vehicles originally planned.
Explainer: Defence budget
Tightening the military's belt
Nuclear submarines
A reduction in the number of Astute submarines built in Barrow for the navy, which may get only four of the planned eight. This will affect work at the last submarine facility in Britain.
Type 45 destroyers
The original plan was to build 12 vessels. This had already been cut to eight. The navy may only now get six.
Aircraft carriers
Construction of two carriers, the first of which was due to enter service in 2014, will be delayed. Scottish shipyards, including the Rosyth yard in Gordon Brown's constituency, could be soothed by the prospect of separate orders for new supply ships for the navy.
Eurofighter Typhoon jets
The number ordered will be reduced, meaning the government may have to pay compensation to BAE Systems at a critical time.
RAF Tornado squadrons
The reduction is still to be finalised.
Cuts in the number of RAF bases
No sites have been named, but the decision could release new sites for housing or possibly new prisons.
Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft
Cuts or delays to the programme are planned.
Future Rapid Effects System
Cuts or delays in the £14bn programme to supply the army with a new battlefield vehicle. This could be the most difficult to implement, because of the urgent need to protect troops in Afghanistan.

[biddedout]

Stop trying to make ends meet and make do with crap equipment.

The Health and Safety laws apply. You are contracted to wage war on behalf of your Government, but the other part of the deal is that the Government as your employer is required by law to provide you with appropriate personal protection equipment. If it is night and there is a chance of someone shooting at you and if you don’t have NVG’s, or Body Armour - cancel. Stay in barracks and tell the Gov’t that you will try again another night when they comply with their part of the contract. Not disobeying orders, just complying with the law.

Similar back home. If the government will not pay for and supply sufficient equipment, then they certainly can’t afford to keep a fleet of horses and diamond encrusted carriages. If they insist on having official birthday trots down the Mall, don’t refuse to turn up, just turn up wearing greens.

Officers and SNCO’s responsible for such events don’t have to be involved, they just don’t realise its happening until its too late.

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

There are plenty ways of protesting within the rules of Military law. You just need your senior officers to understand what you are trying to achieve.

Where’s Charlie and little brover Andy in all this? They are not normally afraid of winding up people like Gordon Broon if it’s for a good cause. Time for some of their retired mates to do some lobbying.

[tucumseh]

I know people here don’t like me banging on about the MoD wasting money – after all, the NHS do it on a far grander scale – but here’s a few suggestions for the Broons;

1. Stop approving the committal of resources to protecting those who deliberately waste money. It is often said, correctly, that an aspiration only becomes policy when funded. Well, you (and your staffs) actively fund the protection of these people so, logically, deliberate waste is de facto policy.
2. Identify those who condone deliberately wasting money and sack them.
3. Identify those staffs that have a track record of delivering programmes to time, cost and performance. Promote them and learn from them.
4. At the VERY least, recreate the old troubleshooter posts and parachute them into programmes which cannot get enough “greens” on the “traffic light” system. These people used to be hated, but it worked. Thick skins essential, so elderly staffs satisfying 3. above only (as your career is effectively over, so ****** huge bonus for success).

I know I’m repeating myself, and these suggestions are consistently rejected (mainly by those to whom 1. and 2. is applicable, unsurprisingly) but demonstrably the MoD has able staffs who deliver the majority of programmes efficiently. Use them, don’t abuse them. Note, I’m not referring to people who inadvertently waste money through inexperience or incompetence – I’m talking about knowingly wasting money for personal gain (advancement). And I ESPECIALLY refer to people who deliver aircraft or their systems knowing them to be unsafe.

If you want an idea how much the above would generate, just think of the programmes discussed here that have suffered problems that were wholly foreseen, advised to those I refer to; and promptly ignored. Chinook Mk3. £250M and counting? Nimrod 2000. £500M+? And we’re getting 12 (?) aircraft instead of 20-odd. What price that reduction in capability? BOWMAN. £500M, not counting the avoidable regression work that’s imminent? I know I’m not the only one who thinks this way – there are numerous reports by the NAO, HCDC, PAC etc highlighting precisely the same things, albeit after the event. (Get with the programme guys, don’t just invite the sycophants in front of you, speak to those who deliver with effortless competence and see the contrast). But these reports are tossed aside by politicians and MoD alike. “We’re better now, so there are no lessons to be learned” is the mantra. CDP used to send e-mails to ALL his staff when these reports came out, telling them this was the party line (and woe betides anyone who did anything to embarrass the department, like demonstrating competence or save money WHILE MAINTAINING CAPABILITY). The last is very important and is key to this discussion. I used to think Broon was being firmly prudent with the MoD – refusing extra money because he knew they wasted it on a truly industrial scale – he’s on record as saying as much. But I now think he’s given up, which is a shame. The lunatics have won, and still control the asylum.

[ORAC]

Grauniad leaks/forecasts of proposals for cuts: RAF and navy hardest hit by £4.5bn MoD cuts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/18/military.foreignpolicy)...

Tightening the military's belt

Nuclear submarines

A reduction in the number of Astute submarines built in Barrow for the navy, which may get only four of the planned eight. This will affect work at the last submarine facility in Britain.

Type 45 destroyers

The original plan was to build 12 vessels. This had already been cut to eight. The navy may only now get six.

Aircraft carriers

Construction of two carriers, the first of which was due to enter service in 2014, will be delayed. Scottish shipyards, including the Rosyth yard in Gordon Brown's constituency, could be soothed by the prospect of separate orders for new supply ships for the navy.* (see link below)

Eurofighter Typhoon jets

The number ordered will be reduced, meaning the government may have to pay compensation to BAE Systems at a critical time.

RAF Tornado squadrons

The reduction is still to be finalised.

Cuts in the number of RAF bases

No sites have been named, but the decision could release new sites for housing or possibly new prisons.

Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft

Cuts or delays to the programme are planned.

Future Rapid Effects System

Cuts or delays in the £14bn programme to supply the army with a new battlefield vehicle. This could be the most difficult to implement, because of the urgent need to protect troops in Afghanistan.

*Naval fleet built abroad if BAE wins MoD contract (http://www.theherald.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2049790.mostviewed.naval_fleet_built_abroad_ if_bae_wins_mod_contract.php)

[tucumseh]

“Future Rapid Effects System

Cuts or delays in the £14bn programme to supply the army with a new battlefield vehicle. This could be the most difficult to implement, because of the urgent need to protect troops in Afghanistan.”


This has long been viewed as a problematic programme. It is not a single battlefield vehicle, but a suite of vehicles. Within that suite, a group of vehicles would, for example, use a common chassis. There is also the aspiration to deliver a hybrid power train. The programme could be cut back but still deliver the protection not afforded by, for example, WMIKs or Snatch LRs.

The ever changing survivability requirements mean more weight. The programme already uses the premise that we can use US C17s as and when. The C130 is quite inadequate for many FRES variants. It may be that the Army decides some of the recent UORs (e.g. Mastiff) are capable and available, so go for more of the same, at the expense of common long term support. Just a quick thought, sure there’s more.

[cornish-stormrider]

Welcome one and welcome all.

How would you like to volunteer for a private armed force??

I can't pay you, I can't equip you, I can't even give you a uniform. (sound familiar)

I will turn a blind eye to whatever you steal from MOD, My aim is to have a force of tanks parked in whitehall by Easter, being overflown by air cover. I will have a set of big grey ships come up the Thames. I will ask all AT for an evac of the troops deployed sausage side until we can mount a credible offensive. ( we did it in 1940 and it worked quite well)

I want the meanest dracula with a stick to be my swo. I want FS B4st4rd to run the shift and when we are at the door to number 10 I will demand the keys to the treasury. I intend to scrap a vast amount of bullsh1t and get the forces running again.

I need leaders of men, I need warriors, I need Mick Smith for journalistic integrity and I intend to stop the minority interest groups and the tail wagging the dog..........


Who wants in??

Oh and my sh1t list so far reads......

Gordy.
Swiss Des.
MOD.
Tony the liar.
Torpy the spineless.
Quangoes.
Faceless beaurocraits.
BOWS.
Spineless yes men.

:E:E:E:}

[lightningmate]

tucumseh,

I for one have no problem with your posts, they are clearly based on a wide experience in very relevant areas and are, therefore, 100% correct. Whilst I myself am not directly associated with the procurement and approval executive I have a close association with those that are. The MOD woes are almost exclusively self-inflicted due to idiotic decisions and policies pushed through against incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. In this respect, the uniformed senior management are by far the worst culprits - inter-service in-fighting is a cancer that has existed for years and until that childish past time is eradicated there will be no improvement whatsoever.

lm

[fawkes]

If this weren't so familiar, I would be speechless (see below).

Whilst a coup d'etat would be cathartic and give us the opportunity to make our unspeakable politicians run the gauntlet, it has not been the British way for 350 years and I, for one, would find it distasteful. We need not dishonour the memories of those who have died defending democracy by abandoning it.

I have, however, joined this lot:

http://www.uknda.org/

They are apolitical but committed to driving home the message that we stand on the brink of disaster in this country if short-sighted cuts emasculate our Armed Forces.

They have some pretty impressive retired folk in their ranks,

http://www.uknda.org/my_documents/my_files/UKNDA-List-Of-Patrons-VPs-Board.pdf

(the sort who have been standing up to be counted) and their manifesto is such that serving folk can join with a clear conscience. If we do want to send a message, then perhaps joining en masse may be a good way of doing it.

Kipling used a 17th Century incident as to highlight the shocking state of the late Victorian Forces, it still rings true:

http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_dutchmedway.htm

Another excellent poem is "The Lesson" about the disasters in the Boer war. It should not take defeat and avoidable casualties to make the government realise that they are failing in their primary duty: the defence of the Realm.

Edited for bad spellign

[PingDit]

Cornish-stormrider: I'm in. Also sounds like I'm your SWO.
However, would a Gordy 'hit-fund' be a good start to guage public opinion?

Now where did those nice black cars come from?.......

[Gainesy]

short-sighted cuts

Did you miss out an "n" there Fawkes?

[Slotback]

All very true points being raised. However, my biggest concern right now is that we are being played. We have seen it all before - leaked reports of mass cuts and reductions prior to spending rounds. These then all prove to be greater than the reality announced later on prompting false relief that it could have been worse.

Don't let them off the hook. Any cuts will have a devastating effect on operational capability and effectiveness, not to mention moral. Whatever the results of the spending round it should be condemned if it does not support the armed forces and allow the brave men and women who serve to get on with their jobs unhindered.

Just because it isn't as bad as predicted doesn't mean it's not bad! Let us keep up the pressure on this bunch of self-serving, spineless politicians. Today we learn that the government is taking on £110 billion liability for Northern Rock (a private company that ruined its own business through inept business practices) and the speaker of the house of commons has been spending tax-payers derived air miles on business class flights for his children.

It is time to stand up and say enough is enough. These politicians, I refuse to call them leaders, don't have any respect for the people who employ them and treat the armed forces with utter contempt. Evil triumphs when good people do nothing.

If I was as incompetent and arrogant at my job as these peolple are with their's I would be dead by now!

[Chugalug2]

fawkes, agree about the inappropriateness of a coup, as the Queen Mum is reputed to have told the last lot that dreamt up such a wheeze, "I don't think that's a very good idea, dears". Which brings us neatly to the MOD, the brainchild of the same person who was rumoured to be involved in the wheeze. Reform of that monstrous carbuncle must be a sine qua non before demands for pouring more tax payers dosh into the military have any chance of being taken seriously. Believe me, I'm a tax payer! Which brings us neatly to UKNDA. One of their emissaries (an Air Power advisor, or somesuch) posted on this forum recently, wanting information. The ensuing discussion ceased abruptly when it was suggested that the MOD was a prime obstacle to the proper defence of this nation. The problem would seem to be vested interests....
Tigs, a combined serving, ex-serving campaign is spot on, we can all wear our new tin badges! Count me in.

[cornish-stormrider]

Oh Badges.........

I realise that there are issues but there are those of us smalley b4st4rds (and proud of it) without much time in who also have left and would deeply like a little badge please. I missed the in date by 7 months. And could someone please PM me with any gen on the veterans ID card and how to apply.

I could just go on fleabay but I want to wear one with integrity, and as to the smalley b4st4rd...... I wear that monniker with pride.:ok: I had some time in, and reached the best rank in the RAF..... Jelly Tot.

[BattlerBritain]

How about getting rid of MoD in toto?

Scrap the lot of them, lock stock and multi-barrels?

And then get rid of all those useless 1-Stars and up that are just hoovering budget with sod-all return.

Then give the defence budget directly to Colonels -and-below to spend as they see fit on the kit they need.

You'd then get rid of the incestuous relationship between MoD, the Air-ships and the Defence firms who are just after making as much profit as possible regardless of the consequences.

Just my 2-penneth.

[Fortyodd2]

Cornish Stormrider ( & anyone else interested)

Try Here ~ http://www.britishveterans.org.uk/index.html

[JessTheDog]

March on Downing Street, just as the police did. The march would be for ex-serving, families, friends and supporters of the Armed Forces...but crucially, also serving personnel (in civvies).

The precedent of the cops marching blew the argument of "political neutrality" out of the water and the only way things will improve will be if significant public opposition is mobilised. This sort of thing would get tens or hundreds of thousands marching.....there is an enormous amount of support amongst the public and plenty of serving and ex-serving within travelling distance of London. Add to that the organisational experience, drive and initiative of organisers. This CAN happen!

If enough march, then it will be impossible to charge or take administrative action against participants due to weight of numbers.

[timzsta]

As an ex fishhead freddie, if a march was organised, I would attend.
It has gone too far.

With regard to building these new tankers in Korea - I wonder how much will be spent on First Class Air Fares and 5* hotac for MoD PE bods going backwards and forwards to the far east to monitor the build process etc etc. Probably about what it would cost to equip the boys n girls in Iraq and Afghanistan with body armour.....

[chappie]

having attended massive peace marches in london and also done the "only as far as the doorstep ma'am" at no10 if you need a hand to organise or indeed publicise i would be only too pleased to help. ( i think that makes sense!)

remember where i am if you want a petition to be set up having done it before. it's about bloody time that the government realise that they cannot take advantage of those instituions that they think won't fight back. as a nurse i've sat back and had it done and as a someone who lost a loved one through penny pinching in armed forces i want to help. let's stand tall, unite and shake up the spineless gits that live their unaffected lives behind their desks and the safety of the pen.

rant over..crack on!

[EdVFX]

It's about time you guys did something like this. As a supporter of the Armed Forces and a long suffering tax payer, I look forward to joining you on a march through Central London. The sooner the spineless cowards and donkeys in Downing Street, Whitehall and Abbey Wood get the message, the better. I'm sure many, many others feel the same way. Go for it!

[GPMG]

March on London, a great idea.

But can you imagine all the girly infighting as to who's in step, do we march or do we saunter etc etc.

And I bet it would end up with Botnecks and Para's drinking in seperate pubs and then doing raids on each others pub, Matloets getting paraletic before the march and, the RAF not turning up because there was a hint of fog in the air. :).

And finally the Navy would probably have their buses hijacked by Iranian forces and then sell their stories to the Sun.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

3 Para Mortars and the booties breaking into Harrods and making off with the Victoria's Secret collection and a selection of party frocks...:}

[Torchy]

So..........After all the hype and stuff at their launch....Where are the UKNDA?? Didn't they set themselves up with ex senior officers as the outfit that was to campaign for properly funded Armed Forces?....It all seems very quiet......

[Gainesy]

What's a good date for a day out at Gordon's gaff then?

Been out since 1977 but I'd march. (Non of that noisy Pongo stamping stuff though, trad air force formation saunter).:)

[GPMG]

3 Para Mortars and the booties breaking into Harrods and making off with the Victoria's Secret collection and a selection of party frocks...:}



Could be the biggest and greatest silly rig run ashore (p*ss up) in the history of the armed forces.

[The Masked Geek]

Sounds like a plan guys but I'd hate to see the headline:

"MoD March Massacre: Terrorists Strike London."

[RETDPI]

We must perhaps remove ourself from the popular delusion that the elected government, somehow, actually "runs" the country.
I noted with interest the comment on an earlier posting that the accelerated decline has been "over the last 25 years".
Perhaps that gives a clue?
25 years ago puts us immediately post the Falklands Campaign. A campaign waged in full face of the fury of the FCO and the Treasury who, post Suez, were diametrically opposed to any more perceived neo-colonial crusades or adventures.
The FCO was at the time of Maggie's gamble, as I recall, flabbergasted that the deliberately run-down armed forces could actually pull off such a potentially expensive and politically in the long-term, problematical, stunt.
Such a deviation from their agenda could not be allowed to happen again.
The pragmatic Establishment solution to discourage any further such " politically attractive" misadventures can be seen today.
If we just can't afford to keep on with such follies financially then, eventually, we won't .
"Three cheers all round and another Gin and Tonic, Sir Humphrey!"

[Beatriz Fontana]

RETDPI,

I must take issue with you.

At the end of the day, the elected government takes the decision on where the money goes. Yes, the grey suits may make recommendations, but the minister of a government department has to approve it via the paperwork. That was one thing that Yes Minister (and Prime Minister) actually left out.

Believe me, I've been there, done that, and have been tainted by the system. But the Brown government can no longer lament back to the Conservatives. How long is the average project cycle? Ten years? Labour have been in power for eleven years. That's an awful long time in politics.

And if terrorists strike London, The Masked Geek, that would be an issue for the Home Office first off. We could debate all day as to whether intervention in, say, Afghanistan for sake of argument, could've prevented an attack. That's one argument I don't fancy getting in to tonight, thanks.

GPMG - the Navy remark was a little below the belt, my friend... :)

I know some great pubs. When the police marched on parliament last month, no one could get near the bar!! Count me in on the march, and I'd bring friends, too.

[4mastacker]

"March on Downing Street, just as the police did. The march would be for ex-serving, families, friends and supporters of the Armed Forces...but crucially, also serving personnel (in civvies)."


...and to give added impact, a fly-past by a couple of TU-95s which had been "allowed" to enter UK airspace.

[biddedout]

Don't forget the Bruntingthorpe Vulcan:ok:

[TheInquisitor]

Am I alone here in thinking that cuts of this level to strategic assets are EXTREMELY foolish and short-sighted, given that Moscow is becoming increasingly bolshy (pun intended) these days??

As much as I would love to see ship orders cancelled so we can afford the AT, SH and CAS assetts we so desperately need right now, I also seem to recall the "What use is the Navy?" conversation being had not so long before the Argies invaded the Falklands...

[mutleyfour]

If I am to march in my civvies then I refuse to wear one of those baseball caps like the rozzers did.

[Beatriz Fontana]

We couldn't wear white... we need a very potent symbol. I'm not so sure that the RBL would like their poppy used for political purposes, but an equally powerful symbol would do the trick, methinks.

[Always a Sapper]

Don't forget the Bruntingthorpe Vulcan

Can we start the march with a fly past ..... please, please.....

I propose low and slow until just over No 10 ...:suspect: (best time for an eta has to be 'sparrows f**t' that should be just about the same time as Gordon’s sat down with a bowl of porridge) then pull up, throttles through the fire wall, burners kicked in and max climb..... See how many windows are left :E:E:E


If nothing else Gordy will be awake when we get there :}

[minigundiplomat]

We couldn't wear white... we need a very potent symbol. I'm not so sure that the RBL would like their poppy used for political purposes, but an equally powerful symbol would do the trick, methinks


How about a rifle ?

[chiglet]

Beatrix...if you wear a "white poppy", then I am rapidly going in the opposite direction...[as an aside, we had a Visiting Minister at our Church on Rememberance Sunday...and "Politically Pushed" the White Poppy :mad:
She will not be invited again
If however you [me us?] want to bin "Gordon the Jock"...count me IN
watp,iktch

[Beatriz Fontana]

Hey chiglet, don't misquote me. I said we couldn't wear white!

[Always a Sapper]

We couldn't wear white... we need a very potent symbol. I'm not so sure that the RBL would like their poppy used for political purposes, but an equally powerful symbol would do the trick, methinks.

Your right Beatrix, the Poppy would not be appropriate, however.....

Replace the base ball cap with a battle bowler and everyone just happened to have a pick helv, an old metal type dustbin lid (aka NI shield) and an S10 handy....... might make for an 'interesting' day out :uhoh::E

[Melchett01]

How about shaming this govt rabble with a mass march, all in suits and RAF ties - about the closest thing you would get to a Regimental uniform. Walk down Whitehall to No 10 and form up before having an about turn to face away from Downing St and the MOD.

It would be a powerful statement of how exactly we felt about the Govt and if done peacefully would shame the Govt - especially if they sent the heavy mob in to break it up.

I seem to remember a group of veterans turning their backs on a dignitary in a parade not so long ago which got an awful lot of publicity for their dignified way of embarrassing said dignitary.

[Guzlin Adnams]

:ok: Ok then, make the march happen. It's about time everyone who cares for the Armed Forces and the security of our country did such a thing.
I'm in; just tell me where and when.....I'll bring a bloody great bus load!
I want a secure country for my sprogs to live in. Under this bunch of near-do-wells security is under serious threat.

[22/7 Master]

Perhaps the sartorial addition for the 'march' should be a piece of string knotted around the arm. This used to be worn as a reminder that something needed to be done.

Perhaps the symbolism is relevant to not just the politicians but also the great mass of the public who are complicit in their ostrich-like ignorance of the fact that we are in a real shooting war which, whilst remote, is of direct consequence to their safety both today and far into the future.

You don't need to march, but EVERY supporter in the Army/Navy Match at Twickenham needs to wear that string and the minute kick off occurs the roar of the crowd should extinguish to pin-drop silence for one minute. The coverage would be truly global.

But there again how widespread is the discontent, is it just the serial ranters of PPRUNE, Rum Ration ans ARRSE who make a large ripple in an extremely small fish pond?

[Phil_R]

> But there again how widespread is the discontent, is it just the serial
> ranters of PPRUNE, Rum Ration ans ARRSE who make a large ripple in an
> extremely small fish pond?

I have spent a maximum of about 24 hours total standing on MoD property, and even I'm beginning to question the "cuts plus deployments" approach, although 232 Typhoons seems positively generous.

If you go to a nursing forum you will hear similar things being said about the NHS, which also holds people's lives in the palm of its hand, and the RNLI was never even government funded in the first place. You aren't alone, not that that makes it right.

In a wider sense you could go to a BECTU meeting and listen in on griping about the precipitous decline of television in this country, previously a world-leading national asset. Given all this, it's hard to shake the impression that the place is turning nationally to cack.

P

[Wingswinger]

Given all this, it's hard to shake the impression that the place is turning nationally to cack.

It's no impression. It is.

[chappie]

right off to make some phonecalls to start organising getting information as to starting the march and will do tentative draft for petition. will get back to you later.

i do, however, need help with spreading the word amongst those of you who serve and will be affected by this. i need you to guage real interest rather than turning up with about 20 of us but even so we can still give out a strong message! please PM me, if any ideas.

be back later.

[Dan D'air]

I will definitely be there and am going to buy some really nice new trousers in Camden just for the occasion.

[Beatriz Fontana]

Yellow.

We can't wear white. Red, maybe. Uniforms are out of the question... but yellow.

Brown the coward??

I could also paint my Spitfire yellow for the occasion... :)

[Dan D'air]

Intriguing Beatriz,

Are you talking about Incapability Brown or Swiss Des Brown(e)?

[Beatriz Fontana]

BOTH!! Although the Dear Leader is a deeper shade of yellow...

[Dan D'air]

He should go to Cuba, they need a new Stalinist leader there.

[Beatriz Fontana]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Actually, now that Fidel's little brother has taken over, Cuba needs a new defence minister as well... :)

[Dan D'air]

And the UK doesn't?

[JessTheDog]

There is interest on ARRSE as well!

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=89336/start=30.html

Let's go for it! How about a "broken covenant" as a symbol?

A parchment scroll torn in two?

Those who have PVRd can take a copy of their attestation/commissioning scroll and tear it up at the gates of No 10 or in Parliament Square!

[Beatriz Fontana]

My dearest Dan, the UK needs a whole new regime of government!!

JessTheDog: I hate to say that the collective ignorance of the British public that feed on media stories of celebrity won't get the relevance of the parchment. Although the symbolic tearing in Parliament Square is worth a shot.

We need a band to march with us. That would bring the traffic to a halt.

[TMJ]

Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade, as it were, but serving personnel need to consider QRs, in particular:


J1012. Political Activities- General. Sponsor: DP&T Discip Pol (RAF)
(1) Regular Service personnel are not to take an active part in the affairs of any political organisation, party or movement. They are not to participate in political marches or demonstrations.



'Twas ever thus...

[Roland Pulfrew]

TMJ

Tis a fair cop, but....

Surely a march by Forces personnel, their family and friends would not be taking part in the affairs of any political organisation, party or movement. A stroll along Whitehall, en masse, might not be a political march. And finally if we all turned up (or at least all of us who aren't currently in sunnier climes), in civvies, what are they going to do? Court martial all of us? And given that the Police have set a precedent, the Govt would be hard pressed to take any action at all. In fact Ms Blair and her chambers might have an interesting human rights case on their hands if they did.

Just a thought....

[Beatriz Fontana]

Police officers aren't allowed to march either, but they did...

[The Masked Geek]

Like I mentioned over on E-goat, if we call it an "Indeterminate Sexual Orientation Pride" march on paper, they'd probably arrange the whole thing for us.

[TheInquisitor]

Regular Service personnel are not to take an active part in the affairs of any political organisation, party or movement. They are not to participate in political marches

...but it's ok as long as it's a 'Gay Rights' parade, in uniform...

Precedent set, methinks.

How about this for sending a message: March, en masse, up the Mall, face the palace, have a band play the National Anthem during a General Salute; them march down to No 10, form up, face AWAY from the door and.....2 minute silence. That'll send a strong message...

[timzsta]

That Inquisitor is a mighty fine idea.

[Tigs2]

Inquisitor

Nice one! I thought about the 'turning the back' at Downing street, but I love the idea of the National Anthem outside Buck Palace. The whole thing would be a very powerful message.

How many police and families turned up for their march, anyone know?

[MReyn24050]

Tigs
I will certainly march in the ranks with the Ex-service personnel in support.
Mel

[A2QFI]

None of this will be legal if it takes place without a permit and within 1 km of Downing Street. Google for "Maya Evans" to see what happened to her when she read out the names of the war dead at the Cenotaph! I do agree that the police could not, and might not even want to, serve writs on all marchers or arrest them. However, there is an underlying problem.

[PTT]

It would be great if the police DID arrest everyone. That'd put a halt to the whole Iraq/Afghanistan thing right smartly - nobody left to send as we're all banged up!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well if this march does go ahead I will definitely dig out my RAF tie, crimpoline slacks and blazer and make my way to the smoke to support those who continue to serve.:ok:

[JessTheDog]

J1012. Political Activities- General. Sponsor: DP&T Discip Pol (RAF)
(1) Regular Service personnel are not to take an active part in the affairs of any political organisation, party or movement. They are not to participate in political marches or demonstrations.


Very true, but - as pointed out - the phrasing offers plenty of wriggle room, and mass participation would prevent too much of a burden for disciplinary or administrative action.

None of this will be legal if it takes place without a permit and within 1 km of Downing Street. Google for "Maya Evans" to see what happened to her when she read out the names of the war dead at the Cenotaph! I do agree that the police could not, and might not even want to, serve writs on all marchers or arrest them. However, there is an underlying problem.

A permit would be obtained. This is not really in doubt. The police themselves marched and there is too much ill-will between government and the police to allow them to bring pressure to bear. In the unlikely event that a permit was not obtained, then there are plenty of contingencies and alternatives and the negative publicity of trying to ban a march and gag supporters of the Armed Forces would have a huge impact: "we can deliver democracy but can't practice it at home".

The litmus test is if this idea carries on over the next few days on this thread and ARRSE with some serious suggestions coming forward...which there are. The point about the march would not be about appealling to Broon's conscience and making him think twice about how he treats the Armed Forces, but appearing to his sense of self-preservation and making him think about the consequences of widespread public anger at the next election.

[brokenlink]

Battler,
That is exactly what the cretins in the Government seem to be trying to do! Pushing the support out to an industrial "partner" whose main aim is to satisfy their shareholders is frankly barking and a hell of a kick in the teeth to the Service & Civilian personnel who work their butts off trying to ensure that the guys at the front line get the right kit. If you then include the manpower cuts in the support areas it is a wonder that anything gets done. Sheer grittiness by all those involved is what is keeping the system going.

BL

[Guzlin Adnams]

:= That last post by AIDU, oh dear.
I'm a civvy, not a journo and I don't have family in the forces but if there is to be a show public support for the forces which is combined with a protest against this b awful government and what it's doing I'll be there; as I was in my home town when the Vikings matched through last year.
I bet Ross Kemp would be interested. Try Martin Bell....that white outfit of his, it's more famous than he is! Leaflets at football matches, posters etc....talk will get around.
You can either sit on the fence and be 5hat on from a great height or do something about it. As for a symbol, try a broken arrow. :sad:

PS (Nicky Campbell's going to Lakenheath this week. Wonder if he's aware that USAFE have got more aircraft there than the whole of the RAF can get servicable due to cutbacks.)

[minigundiplomat]

Have to agree with AIDU, much as that may hurt. There is a lot of talk, but I don't think I'll be buying a SE Trains supersaver ticket just yet. If you are going to do it, fine...count me in. But if you are just going to 'form a committee' with a view to exploring issues, then I'll pass.
CAS has been criticised quite rightly for sitting on his hands, but I don't think getting all steamed up with plans for a revolution on here, in the hope that a tame journo will take the story on is going to work.

[LBGR]

Anyone see this programme?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/power_to_the_people/6613759.stm

[cargosales]

Good call mate. It never works when people band together to try and influence the politicians does it?

Except for things like this http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Headley/ and this http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=284330 and this http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=72560.html


The one thing the majority of the Armed Forces seem to have in common is a 'can-do', let's give it a try', 'what have we got to lose' approach to things. Fortunately they are usually able to ignore the whingers and knockers such as yourself and get on with it.

Did it enter your negative little mind at all that our beloved Prime Minister might not be so much bothered by a parade or protest itself but he and his cronies would sure as hell sit up and take note of the press coverage it would generate?

Some examples, relating to the campaign above,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=468619&in_page_id=1770

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/07/28/do2804.xml

http://www.surreyad.co.uk/news/2013/2013444/worldwide_support_for_plan_but_neighbours_unhappy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/surrey/6918675.stm

I could go on with dozens more.

If a local campaign can generate that level of media attention and support in such a short space of time, and achieve a great result to boot, shouldn't you be asking yourself what you could be doing to help this one???

CS

[chappie]

All I can say is for those of you who don't know me I understand your trepidation at whether this is a serious idea. Well, it is. I am aware of the channels that have to be gone through and have been on a mass March through the centre of London and have contacts with those who may help with organising it. I have started ball rolling in getting necessary information before even continuing onto next step.

I know that there are limitations placed on those of you serving and that dilemma I leave to you, but there comes a point my friends where the recording of another unlawful death tends to turn the stomach. We must not let the ears of the British public become closed and unaffected to those words, there will be those who will disagree but plenty that will support. So, come with your families, friends and the like. By the time I'm done there won't be some tame journalist but the major channels and more. If I thought there's no point as no one will take notice then I wouldn't have done all I did for the herc safety campaign. I lost my brother and await the inquest, his coroner is meeting with armed forces minister to discuss funding and equipping of troops and I know I can't get Bob back but I can stop stop someone else going through this hell that's left when you do lose someone.

You need the funds and so you need to fight for them.

Keep the faith.

[HILF]

Chappie,

I'm sure that if it can be organised so as to be legal (and if the police can do it, that must have set some form of precident) then people will attend in droves.

I for one will come up to town and (probably more importantly) I'll pass on the details to others.

The idea of a signified "ignoring" of MOD MB and Downing St has much appeal - as is the "smartly dressed" march concept - will the RAF wear cravats? ;)


I wish you well in your research and await the results with great interest.


HILF

[mutleyfour]

If were going to max afterburner on this, could/should we include a minutes silence?

[chappie]

right then, the update. i have put out my feelers and hopefully by the end of today i am going to be a little closer to making this a reality.

i have also created a petition on the n10 website. i am awaiting approval but will put in the link now in case that it will be open to signatures! i am afraid chaps and chappeses that i am not computer savvy so i've done well to achieve what i have so far...i.e place a reply on this thread..fnar fnar:}

[fawkes]

The power of peaceful protest is well proven, which is why dictatorships are so afraid of the interweb, but may I offer a word of warning?

I laud the sentiment and intent which I share fully, and I acknowledge humbly the pain and anger of those who have lost relatives and friends as well as colleagues, but we must be extarordinarily careful that this does not backfire. May I draw our attention to the Principles of War? The undeniable success of the Arrse NIMBY campaign relied on a single, clear, achievable aim. The Coppers' cry was not open to misinterpretation. What exactly is this protest saying?

What is the desired outcome in terms of influencing the opposing forces? Who, in fact, are they? If the politicians are guilty of failing to provide the resources and taking our professionalism, can do attitude and sacrifice for granted, then our senior officers are guilty of complicity in admiring the Emperor's New Clothes. Please do not forget that the politicians and the politicised seniors are not capable of feeling guilt or remorse (only embarrassment). Before we undermine the credibility of those rare few who actually do care more about their people than their Knighthoods or future directorships, let us be absolutely sure of avoiding unintended consequences.

We will need planning, leadership, and careful co-ordination between all the disparate supporters and we need the message to be clear, simple and unassailable. I know, Chappie, that you are well aware of all this, but it needs to be said.

I suggest that the elephant is too big to eat all at once. Over a decade of neglect cannot be reversed overnight. The politicians could ignore us as they did the very large Liberty and Livelihood marches. A good turnout is, in itself, not enough. Please do not forget that there are those within politics and the media who will twist this for their own ends.

Please can I urge you to get in touch with the UKNDA whose professed aim is
the non political highlighting of the pressing need for proper resources to be put into the Defence of the Realm. They have a committee structure and existing dialogue with Government and the MoD, together with media savvy and a sufficient standing to be able to unite veterans, families, industry, and serving personnel under the one banner.

Good Luck!

[LBGR]

fawkes,


Please can I urge you to get in touch with the UKNDA... ...They have a committee structure and existing dialogue with Government and the MoD, together with media savvy and a sufficient standing to be able to unite veterans, families, industry, and serving personnel under the one banner.


That may be so, but what have they actually done since they're formation. If they were taking a pro-active approach and achieving results, I suggest that this thread would not have been started in the first place.

I'm all for UKNDA taking this under they're wing and organising it, but untill they stop just sitting around talking about it in a Monty Python fashion, it has been taken on by people like chappie who are in the position, and kindly willing, to organise it.

[Chugalug2]

fawkes wrote:


Please can I urge you to get in touch with the UKNDA whose professed aim is
the non political highlighting of the pressing need for proper resources to be put into the Defence of the Realm. They have a committee structure and existing dialogue with Government and the MoD, together with media savvy and a sufficient standing to be able to unite veterans, families, industry, and serving personnel under the one banner

Sounds cushtie, but the input of their "RAF Advisor" at:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=307123
left me underwhelmed I'm afraid. Of course one swallow etc etc, but as I understand it UKNDA sees itself as a pro MOD lobby to oppose and/or restore defence cuts. The title of this thread is "MOD fury as Brown wields axe", but the mood of the thread seems to be one of fury at the MOD as much as at Brown. As has been said we need a clear aim for the campaign, and one along the lines of the supposed UKNDA philosophy above would fit neatly. Too neatly perhaps, for stuffing more money into the maw of the MOD beast would do little to help the Armed Forces IMHO, but "Reform the MOD and restore the cuts" neither trips off the tongue nor would be easily understood. A dilemma, or am I missing the big picture?

[nav attacking]

I suggest a few of you look at the UKNDA link. They are doing a good job of putting the Armed Forces point of view across.

http://www.uknda.org/

[LBGR]

WHAT DOES THE UKNDA PROPOSE?
We urge politicians of all parties and persuasions to support an immediate and sustained real increase in the percentage of GDP allocated annually for ”Defence and the Armed Forces” to at least 3%; this would represent an increase of 35-40% over present levels of funding.



Whats next, a strongly worded letter? Admittedly, I have only had a quick look through the site, but all I can see is a list of the RAF's qualities and importance in the world signed by a list of high ranking ex-brass. I tried my best to find a 'Here's what we achieved so far' section, but unfortunately it was to no avail.

Respect where respect is due to the chaps who have set this is up as I'm sure it plays an important political role and they have spoken out for something the feel passionately about, but I still feel they are not addressing the problems outlined in this thread.

And their statement above reminds me of some of the management bull:mad: talk that, it has been suggested here, may be the cause of many of the problems.

[mutleyfour]

I read that they hope to have a million members, at £100 for life membership, someone will be making a hefty amount of money.

[nav attacking]

This is the closest anything comes to being a military union and whilst I don't agree with the politics behind most unions, being far right of Ghengis Khan myself, I do agree with the principle of them. They are the ONLY unified voice that we have at the moment. How many people have contributed to this thread and how many members do the UKNDA have? We all support the same ideal, lets not have dispute amongst the ranks already and keep the common aim in view! (Sorry to slip into management speak there, never know one day I may get promoted!)

Most civvies would pay at least £5 per month to be part of one. With annual membership of only £12 it is a bargain. Albeit they are a fledgling organisation with out any teeth yet and I am not sure how far they would go to support you in any dispute with the MOD.

To quote the website:

Ten Commandments for the UKNDA:

1. Maintain the AIM. A tried and tested military maxim meaning that, in all that you do, never forget what is your main aim – what it is you seek to achieve. For the UKNDA our purpose is:
To campaign for sufficient appropriate and fully funded Armed Forces that the Nation needs to defend effectively this country, its people, their security and vital interests wherever they may be.


2. Work as a Team. Working together is far more effective than individuals working alone.


3. The Task, the Team, the Individual. This is the ideal arrangement. Always remember the task in hand. Work together – but remember always that the Individual is important.


4. Co-operate. No inter-service squabbling – it is entirely counter productive.


5. Be Positive. Onwards and upwards.


6. Be Inventive. Observe the masses and do the opposite.


7. Be Pro-active. Seize the initiative. Don’t wait for things to happen – MAKE them happen.


8. Be Persistent. When bashing your head against a seemingly unbreakable brick wall, persevere. At least you’ll loosen a few bricks, and, with perseverance, the wall will fall down (though you may acquire a headache on the way). (With apologies to the late Admiral of the Fleet Viscount Cunningham of Hyndhope – then better known as “ABC” whose saying I have plagiarised)


9. LISTEN to others – take wise counsel.

And finally – and above all – as Sir Winston Churchill said when asked what was the secret of success:

10. “NEVER GIVE UP!”

...

John Muxworthy

Cdr, RN CEO UKNDA Ltd

It is still a bargain though, lets face it we aren't poor people...

[Beeayeate]

One bit of bother I see is that without a very specific (and possibly simply stated) definition of a goal, any such march will be insiduously misrepresented by the salacious media as a forces "anti-war" outing.


:(

[LBGR]

In theory I have no problem with the UKNDA, their principles are sound. And you are correct, £12 is a small amount to pay to be supoorted in a time of need, or indeed to know that others around me may be supported at such a time.

However I still fail to see what support they are offering. They're ten commandments, whilst at first glance appear to be exactly the qualities one would expect from a military 'union', on closer inspection they appear to be providing a, very detailed I must admit, account of the short-falls within HM Armed Forces along with a list of management/leadership 'buzz' words.

The day the UKNDA are 5. Positive6. Inventiveand 7. Pro-active enough to make me sit up and say, 'well-done lads' for the first time, is the day I will quite gladly sign a cheque.

Untill then, I will watch with mixed feelings of admiration and scepticism.

[rudekid]

Much as I hate them, the only way of success in something like this is to court the press into whipping up a frenzy of public support.

The UKNDA look to be a singularly unimpressive lot. I know there aren't serving officers in there for good reason, but the retired lot of 'front line' advisors are hardly world beaters. It looks Navy centric (read the mission statement first line) has no RAF players with any track record and Bob Stewart is the only army guy with a profile and a good reputation. Take away the 'patrons' who are clearly letterhead names, then you don't have a lot of clout left. As for the security advisor, Professor Medhurst, didn't we just jail a Flt Lt for being a walt....Read into this guys CV and his credibility collapses-full professor you must be having a laugh!:hmm:A real life Jack Ryan!

So, good luck all, 100% behind you with the ideas, just think the reality will be very difficult to achieve.

[JessTheDog]

The NDA have an interesting and focussed role, they seem to be trying to establish themselves in a think-tank and lobbying role. Certainly a key stakeholder in this sort of thing.

Remember the British Armed Forces Federation as well. www.baff.org.uk BAFF has the intricate task of gaining acceptability as a representative organisation - "not a union!" - in some ways similar to the Police Federation. In my view - from what I have heard - much progress has been made, but not a bridge-burning organisation! Having said that, I would hope that BAFF would support the principle of a profile-raising march that seeks to tackle key defence welfare issues. Likewise for the RBL although the "Broken Covenant" campaign is a radical departure from the past.

Any march would need to have clear, concise but comprehensive aims. The aims would need to be as simple as possible, attainable and acceptable to all opinions - traditionalist as well as modern. Easier said than done, but there are plenty of brains around here!

I would suggest 4 key messages or aims, possibly along the following lines:

1. Accountability. Time for a Royal Commission to take apart and study defence, and to have proper Parliamentary scrutiny (RUSI have made a similar point). Personnel need representation as well ie. the BAFF initiative, which should be formally acknowledged.

2. Proper Funding and Equipment. Defence spending to be matched to commitments: no "just in time", no more "jam tomorrow": kit to be supplied when it is needed, not when enough bad headlines accrue.

3. Welfare Provision. Suitable affordable FMQs, appropriate compensation for the wounded, military wards for the wounded, a fair deal for dependents from local authorities, access to affordable housing and schools, medical and dental etc.

4. Veterans' Care. No arguing - priority medical treatment (NHS or private) for long-term effect of Service injuries.

This march CAN happen! It WILL raise the profile of the issues we care about! It MAY change something! What is for certain is that doing NOTHING will achieve NOTHING!

[cargosales]

Rudekid: spot on, both about whipping up the press (as I mentioned previously) and about how unimpressive the UKNDA lot really look. Great perhaps for political lobbying but I can't see any of them condoning, let alone taking part in, a march to whip up said press support.

JessTheDog:
1. Accountability - yes, great point!

2. Proper funding and equipment vs 'just not in time' - totally agree!

3. Welfare provision - a given in many other countries so why not in ours?

4. Priority care for veterans - sorry but not necessarily. Perhaps this aim needs rewording??

My take on this may be unpopular here but ... I think the same priority as everyone else, yes, but no one person should be given priority over any other one person when being treated on the NHS, simply on the basis of their work history.

(Why do I take that view? - we all took the Queen's shilling, knowing full well what might happen to us. It's an occupational hazard after all. However, I don't remember anything about it making us more deserving of treatment than those we undertook to defend.

A civvie with a manky arm sustained in a factory accident is just as entitled to prompt, effective and free treatment on the NHS as a squaddie who gets a manky arm from an IED in Iraq. Whether either gets it is of course a different matter.)

Appropriate treatment for people's injuries (e.g. lack of proper swimming pool at Headley Court) is a different matter altogether...


This march CAN happen! It WILL raise the profile of the issues we care about! It MAY change something! What is for certain is that doing NOTHING will achieve NOTHING!


Spot on!

:D :D :D

[Chugalug2]

Jess the Dog, well said that man! I quite agree; keep the UKNDA, BAFF, MFATW and anyone else's agendas out of this. Your shopping list says it all for me, although the overall message needs to be soundbite clear, especially on the noisy, in the street, surrounded by participants displaying placards, outfits, petitions etc, piece to camera that is de rigeur on the tele news these days. Forces against the cuts, perhaps? The broken arrow seems a good symbol (sorry, can't remember whose suggestion). All this will achieve is to put defence, or the increasing lack of it, into the public eye. But that will be a big start for an ongoing campaign, in which visible presence is important. Given the embargo on serving personnel being in the march (well, officially) it is up to the veterans and NoK to turn out en masse. I just knew when Gordo invented us and that tin badge that he would rue the day. That day is nigh!

[JessTheDog]

I am sure that it will not take long to arrive at a consensus non-political message. There would be no bar in personnel participating in this non-political march, just as there is no barrier to participating in other marches or - as acknowledged by ministers - from joining the British Armed Forces Federation.

I was on the Save The Scottish Regiments march and noticed quite a few serving types. I was also (briefly) on the Stop the War march in 2003 whilst serving, largely by coincidence as I had to meet my missus who was participating! ;)

[Sempre 206]

How about a simple 'The Covenant has been Broken'.
S 206

[LBGR]

Would the majority of Joe Public know what the Covenant was?

[GPMG]

I don't think anything to do with 'Covenants' should be used, there will be too many Indiana Jones quotes in the papers.

How about the famous Lord Kitchener poster with a meaningfull slogan underneath. Something like

http://www.wardsbookofdays.com/index_files/Kitchener2.JPG



"Britain

The armed forces needs your support

God save the armed forces, cause the Govt wont"


Or something a lot better than that effort

[mutleyfour]

Quick interlude: Anyone know what the actual cuts are yet?

[Beatriz Fontana]

Aw GPMG, that's absolutely :mad: brilliant!

I'm in two minds whether the religious reference works or not.

[dunc0936]

Hi guys and gals, Im new to this forum but have been a member of Arrse for some time, we have also been talking about the need for a march, and it seems I have been volunteered to organise it, however from reading this thread it seems other people have had the same idea,

I don't want to be covering the same ground that has already been covered so perhaps we could pull resources, ideas etc, I was wondering how far your organising has gone??? if anyone has been doing some organising and wants to contact me then I'll be happy to give my private email or mob number

Thanks

Duncan

[minigundiplomat]

Gents,

I often spend long periods of time in a place I don't want to be, doing things I don't want to to. I have reached the point where I no longer feel the RAF is moving in a coherent direction and will be leaving soon.

I understand the outrage, anguish and utter despair at what this government is doing to the the last fragment of British society still in some semblence of working order, but I feel some of the ideas floated on here run the risk of politicizing the Armed Forces.

My Great grandfather was torpedo'd off Southern Ireland by a U Boat, rescued and torpedo'd agin. He didn't come home.

My grandfather landed on the Normandy beaches on 06 June 1944, having spent several months previously fighting in North Africa. Neither would have dreamed of marching through London.

Times have moved on, but the current fiasco is no worse than the one during the 1930's of which Winston Churchill repaeatedly warned parliament.

Things are badly wrong with the Armed Forces, but the leadership sees fit to stick it's head in the sand, and worry about JPA and fitness strategies. Are you going to turn your back on MOD MB? They are equally complicit.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I myself could not reconcile that with the memory of my grandparents endeavours and sacrifices.

I wish you good luck, but think very carefully about the path you are about to tread.

[Tigs2]

Mini

I think your Grandparents, witnessing the current situation would be screaming at you to march. They had no choice, you do. The thought of them dying for a service that WILL dwindle to a small European force? Mmmmm... I don't think they would like that.

[Safety_Helmut]

That is the first sensible post I have seen from minigundimplomat, and I recommend others read it.

I agree with much of what he says. It is not just the government at fault here, the leadership (or lack of) within the armed forces and the MoD itself have an awful lot to answer for.

S_H

[HILF]

Recognising that both the political situation and "society" were totally different in the run up to WWII, I can't help wondering whether a march similar to that being proposed on this thread would have had any effect. Like Minigundiplomat (and many of us) I lost antecedents in that war.

I think that both my grandfathers (one a bootie (1919 Murmansk), the other light blue (sandpit the first time round!) - both regulars prior to WWII) would have approved of a mass ignoring of Parliament & MOD MB - it is, however, a great shame that IMHO it will take at least an event like this before our political lords and masters "wake up and smell the coffee".


HILF

[mutleyfour]

Maybe, just maybe this is what is required to rein in the suppliers to the MOD. Yesterday BAE announced profits of 1.48 billion and yet do not seem able to deliver anything much on time or within budget.

Statement from link:

In programmes and support, which comprises the company's UK-based air, naval and underwater systems, profits rose to £456 million from £342 million

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/business_money/bae+profits+up+22+at+148bn/1617547

[tucumseh]

"Yesterday BAE announced profits of 1.48 billion and yet do not seem able to deliver anything much on time or within budget".


While my example doesn't relate to BAeS, there are established precedents whereby the Chief of Defence Procurement upheld decisions to waive contractual obligations or ignore failures to meet these obligations, yet still pay off the contracts in full. And then fork out again to the same company to do it properly. And when they failed, pay them and ..........

It makes my blood boil, especially when the failure left aircraft unsafe. I know it's difficult, and perhaps impossible these days, but I well recall one commercial officer I worked with who, under these circumstances (MoD being shafted) would agree a fair and reasonable price and then invite the company to knock 20% off it if they wanted the job. To be fair however, it's only a certain protected few who routinely stiff us.

[GPMG]

I have to agree with MGD, although I am all for a march or some kind of peaceful protest, it does worry me that it would in some way weaken some of the foundations of the British forces.

Perhaps a march by forces families and ex forces would enable the same message to be put across but not tarnish the serving forces reputation.


...........


Beatriz Fontana, yeah I'm not keen on the last quote but it was just off the cuff, I'm sure someone else could come up with a better tag line.

[colonel cluster]

Perhaps a comparison could be made to the early 1900's when the nation cried out for more dreadnoughts than the government had funded. If only we can raise peoples awareness of what the future funding of the MoD will mean, in terms they can identify with, ie:

1) cannot do a falklands (Task group size, attrition and sustainability)
2) cannot afford to launch our own air attack without US support (specialist support, quantity of tanking etc)
3) cannot get the army to where they need to be and support them. (heavy lift, RW support)

Ma'am, your trusted servants need you more than ever!

[Phil_R]

> 2) cannot afford to launch our own air attack without US support (specialist
> support, quantity of tanking etc)

Much as I understand the sentiment here, can I suggest from my purely civvy perspective that you probably don't want to use the ability to act unilaterally as a case in point? Countries throwing their military weight around without international (preferably UN) support is not a concept you're going to get a lot of love for in the current political climate, even if it does mean effectively the same as "we couldn't do Falklands now."

What enervates me about this (as a minority shareholder in UK PLC and therefore with an interest in the cost-effectiveness of its, er, security guards) why defence is so bloody expensive and yet still needs cutting all the time. I mean, one or the other...

P

[chappie]

well, no suprise but the no10 petition was refused but no worries. i have arranged something else but want your views on it first as it's you that's affected by it and it's you that i am trying to support.

i have been thinking about all that's been suggested and to say it's a mixed bag and my reactions to that have varied but i am back on line as it were. i guess it's fair to say i have been confused. the fact that there has been 15,000 viewers to this thread but only 153 comments has left me thinking could this be a reality?? then i realise what has been achieved with a handful of people and though it would be good to have the masses present, constraints make that more of a dream not necessary a reality. shame really. i really appreciate all views though.

this is what i am trying to say in petition, let me know if you agree.

we, the undersigned petition the government to put a stop to the planned cuts to the defence budgets and to supply proper funding to allow all our forces to be equipped according to the comittments made.
the ongoing cuts to an already struggling institutioncontinues to be a travesty that must be stopped. this is echoesd in the increasing number of recorded verdicts of unlawful killing in soliders deaths who have died due to the consistent failings to properly equip our troops. you request our armed forces to protect us and continue to serve queen and country then you must ensure more funds are available and serve your public.

tell me what you think before i register it, and is that to the point and of a theme enough?

[iain8867]

Chappie

let me know when that petition is on I for one will sign it

[Dan D'air]

Tigs2,

In response to your (much) earlier post asking about numbers on the police march, I have been reliably informed (by one who was there) that there were approximately 27,000 who turned out. It worked to a certain extent, in that they have been given a judicial review of their pay award. There are about 150,000 coppers of all shapes and sizes in the UK, which is not too dissimilar to the number in the Forces nowadays, so who knows how many service personnel it would take to highly embarass this necrotic shambles of a government again?

[knowitall]

"can I suggest from my purely civvy perspective that you probably don't want to use the ability to act unilaterally as a case in point?"

the point is we can't even act as part of a coalition without the yanks (niether can the rest of europe mind)

if they dont want to join the party and the enemy are armed with anything more than awfully sharp slices of mango, there's nothing we can do

[HILF]

Chappie,

I'm happy to support and sign such a petition (and pass on the message to family and friends) - let us know when its up.

I'm also still in favour of some sort of mass protest - I think it'll take more than a petition that El Gordo can choose to just ignore. :ugh:

Thankyou for taking this on. :D:D:D

HILF

[BEagle]

For all the talk of marches on Downing St and public demonstrations, you must know deep down that this will never happen.

The last military demonstration of any significance I can recall was in the late 1970s by the 'Waddington Wives' at the level of pay we had at the time.

The only real hope is for senior officers to stand up and be counted. Together, of course, with an end to the totalitarian regime of Golden Brown - but only by democratic means!

[Wrathmonk]

Sadly even if the Service chiefs were to fall on their sword it would make no difference at all - there are sufficient power hungry yes men lower down the tree who would be more than happy to step up to the plate for 2 years, make no difference whatsoever and leave with a massive pension and gratuity. Even Swiss Des throwing in the towel would give Prudence Brown the opportunity to put another yes man in post. Notice any change when Lord Drayson quit? Thought not.

As for the worker bees in MOD (OF5 and below I'm talking about). Cut them some slack - they are trying to do their best under some very trying circumstances. With no (and I mean no) strategic direction and a government who does not want to hear any bad news that may affect their popularity (loss of UK jobs, closure of UK industry etc) there can be no progress. A demonstration would elevate the issue in the press but for how long? Mass PVRs - whilst the PVR rate is apparantly within historical norms (don't shoot the messenger!) the rate people are leaving at their option points is increasing. Is it making a blind bit of difference? Sadly no - but it is playing into the hands of the government who are reducing the wage bill without having to pay redundancy! All we will end up with is a very young Armed Forces with lots of operational experience but nothing else. I'm sure there is a far eastern air force (Singapore?) where their equivalent of CDS is 35 but he, like the rest of their serviceman are out by 38. Would this work here? I believe it is already happening - whilst we still have sufficient numbers walking through the recruiting office doors (which I admit is arguable at the moment) those leaving at the top end of the tree are replaced by pulling up those from below. Interesting to know what the dilution rate actually is or have they changed the definition to make the stats better?

[chappie]

hi, petition now done, i hope that the link i put in works if not i will need a computer bod to help me!

this is the start!

www.PetitionOnline.com/bobsis1/petition.html (http://www.PetitionOnline.com/bobsis1/petition.html)
please sign and spread the word. i will be going away till wednesday but will do as much as i can before i go later depending on little ones behaving, as believe you me a 10 month old and computer do not mix!

[chappie]

have tested it and it works now sign please!

[BEagle]

Isn't the weasel-word 'capability holiday'?

I do wish someone would publish the statistics showing the strength in personnel, aerodromes and aircraft of the RAF on 1 Apr 1968, 78, 88, 98 and 2008......

Then we might really see how bad things are nowadays.

[tablet_eraser]

Could I ask, and I'm sorry if I'm being dense, why this petition is not a No 10 Downing St website petition? If we sign something outside the Government's own systems, they'll have as good a reason as ever to completely ignore people's opinions.

Also, and sorry for being a pedant, you should have had that proofread before posting it. As strong as the sentiment is, I'm sorry to say that it looks slapdash and is not likely to be taken seriously (not that Broon seems to be the sort of man to take people's genuine opinions seriously anyway!). If your plan is to succeed, you need to be 100% accurate and professional, or you'll cut out a lot of people who might see it as a flash-in-the-pan effort instead of a solid expression of outrage.

[Jackonicko]

I do wish someone would publish the statistics showing the strength in personnel, aerodromes and aircraft of the RAF on 1 Apr 1968, 78, 88, 98 and 2008......

Then we might really see how bad things are nowadays.

And by squadron, divided into categories -

AD, OS, Strike/Attack, Strike/Attack/Recce, Tac Recce, Strat Recce, Sigint, AEW, MR/ASW, tactical transport, strategic transport, tanker, VIP/liaison, SH, etc.

[BEagle]

Sounds like a job for a journo, eh Jacko?

BTW - did you ever produce the article for which you borrowed my slides last year?

[Phil_R]

I'm not sure I'd expect to see the same level of capability maintained now that was in 1988. If a very large threat has diminished to a much smaller one, one would expect the cash thus freed up to go to avoiding people dying of cancer, and that would seem reasonable.

While we don't live in that world, however, I would be quite interested to see
what the cost-to-capability ratio has been doing over that period.

P

[chappie]

people mentioned a petition, there is now a petition and now there is moaning. fine, you don't have to sign it. i have only tried to show support that's all. if you want to accept the situation as it is then fine, it's you that it affects.

tablet eraser, i did put the spiel out onto pprune for people to read, no one commented so i did make the effort.

to answer the query about being outside of the no10 remit and no notice taken then all i can say is the last petition that i did which was handed in with just under 3000 signatures calling for increased hercules safety was not a no10 one and along with putting the issue out into the public eye and alot of other work changes were made. a petition could be on a piece of scrap paper as long as the signatures are there and people support the cause then that's what you need.

this is going to be hard work and i am prepared for hard work and to spread the word and all the other work that is needed to do but if it's not wanted then fine i will not do it. the last thing i want to do is upset anyone...well you guys..the government and bean counters i really have no regard for. it would seem that i have upset more of you than actually managed to lend my support to you. if it's not wanted then consider it removed.



sorry for any offence i caused you. it was not my intention.
i shall sign off this thread and leave you be...:}

[Lima Juliet]

Jacko

Here are the figures that I got from a library book on the RAF...

Year /Personnel /Combat /Trg /Total Aircraft
1939 /174,000 /2600 /? /2600+?
1944 /1,186,000 /9035 /? /9035+?
1945 /1,079,000 /9200 /? /9200+?
1949 /219,000 /1251 /3000 /4251
1954 /261,000 /2127 /3086 /5213
1959 /175,000 /1051 /1790 /2841
1964 /138,000 /949 /1377 /2326
1969 /112,000 /723 /1015 /1738
1974 /99,000 /655 /750 /1405
1979 /85,500 /627 /776 /1403
1984 /93,500 /632 /839 /1471
1989 /93,000 /995 /622 /2874
1994 /70,000 /660 /440 /1100
1995 /70,000 /Options for Change/
1999 /52,000 /Front Line First/
2002 /48,000 /Strategic Defence Review/
2006 /42,000 /430 /430 /860
2008 /??,??? /??? /??? /???

??? = 2008 planning round not yet officially announced but there are strong rumours that there are to be aircrew establishment cuts (to match the actual aircrew figures - we can't train to fill the gaps left by those leaving!) and the mothballing of a number of several types. Should be announced in the next month or so...:(

I hope this helps

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

By the way the biggest cut in our combat capability has been Fast Jets we now have 1/2 as many Fast Jet Squadrons than we did in 1990 (something like 36 Sqns to now just 16!). The only increase in the past few years have been ISTAR and Support Helo - this is after all the war that we are presently fighting...

What we need is a modern day Lady Lucy Houston who, in 1931 donated £100,000 (about £5m today) to Supermarine, allowing them to win the Schneider Trophy in that year (which lead to the devlopment of the RR Merlin and the Spitfire). The Royal Air Force's entry for the 1931 race for the trophy was hindered by political opposition. On January 15, 1931, the Air Ministry refused a last minute request by the Royal Aero Club for funds for an entry. The Ministry also forbade the use of the aircraft that competed in the 1929 race; forbade RAF pilots who were trained to fly these seaplanes, to take part; and said that it would not police the race course in 1931 in the busy shipping lanes in the Solent.

In 1932 she offered to give £200,000 to strengthen the British army and navy. The National Government refused.

She put a large illuminated sign on her yacht saying: "DOWN WITH MACDONALD THE TRAITOR!". In a telegram to the Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald she said:

"I alone have dared to point out the dire need for air defence of London. You have muzzled others who have deplored this shameful neglect. You have treated my patriotic gesture with a contempt such as no other government would have been guilty of toward a patriot."

http://www.rjmitchell-spitfire.co.uk/schneidertrophy/images/g_1931_groupphoto.jpg

What an outstanding visionary and she may have saved the country in providing the ability to defend against the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain.

Now where did I put my "Down with Nu-Labour" illuminated sign :E

LJ

[RAF_SARGE]

Just signed Chappie's petition. Guess how many signatures so far, lots?



No 12! Just 12! Awful. Still as this is mainly an anonymous Forum, that is what I'd expect, lot's of talk, no balls. And don't bother replying to have a bleat if I've ruffled your poor feathers, do something positive, sign the petition.

Or are you all just like Brown, Blair and the other idiots? Full of hot air? :ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

Unable due to QR J1012 - sorry. May get wife, family and friends to do it for me though.

[dunc0936]

Hi all, plans for the march are progressing well, and I have over the last few days had offers of help from some people who know what they are talking about ie, PR, Police PR relations etc, so will keep you all informed on that front,

I have suggested that Late July or early August as a good date, we need this to be planned well, get the right message across, so Labour spin doctors cannot pick any holes in it.

This is on Arrse as well as here, does anyone know if any other forums have picked it up??

I have been putting together some ideas for the message, once I have finished it, I'll post it so you can let me know what you think...... Remember all though, this is our money they are spending, without our taxes, there would be no government, so do not give up hope..... we should be able to have some say in how it is spent....


Duncan

[Chugalug2]

Well done Chappie, have just signed your petition. Ignore the knockers, at least you have stood up and done something, in the tradition of Lady Houston, and like her you are a patriot. The bleaters meanwhile will be still be dithering when it is all too late, rather like those who hoped the Nazis were nor really a threat. Idiots!

[tablet_eraser]

chappie,

I was not criticising you for starting a petition at all; far from it, I'm glad you did. I'll PM you with some specifics.

[MReyn24050]

sorry for any offence i caused you. it was not my intention.
i shall sign off this thread and leave you be...

Please do not do that, I have signed your petition and as Chugalug2 states
Ignore the knockers, at least you have stood up and done something, in the tradition of Lady Houston, and like her you are a patriot
Mel

[Tigs2]

Signed:ok:

[S'land]

Signed (as a civvy who thinks our military are the best, but get the worst treatment).

[SirToppamHat]

Leon Jabachjabicz wrote:
2008 planning round not yet officially announced but there are strong rumours that there are to be aircrew establishment cuts (to match the actual aircrew figures - we can't train to fill the gaps left by those leaving!)

Surely this is nothing new?? In most areas of the Service(s), if you have a post gapped for long enough some numb-nuts will come along and say you have managed without so you don't need it! The problem is this is frequently being done with no consideration whatsoever of the actual impact of gapping on those who remain. We are a fighting force and fighting forces need to be slightly over-manned to allow for deployments and the like. We are rapidly approaching the point where our people will disappear for 4-6 mths only to find that their UK posts have been taken for savings!

I know of units that are continually under-manned, but move the gaps round so that they aren't visible to the choppers.

I do wonder what reception a modern day Bader would get to a statement that his Sqn was nonop due lack of spares ... probably find his Sqn stood-down and the guys all sent to the 'stan for 4 mths (after a bollocking for daring to suggest that anything is wrong)!

<<RANT ON>>
The other morning I was 'volunteered' to spend 2 and a half hrs discussing with fellow offrs and WOs whether the RAF is 'Agile, Adaptable and Capable'. One of a series of workships involving all ranks to let our very senior officers (2* and above) know what we need to do to try to make the RAF fit a description that has little to do with making us an effective fighting force, and everything to do with making us fit a description that was probably invented by some focus group because it sounds good. I despair. Whatever happened to flexibility being the key to Air Power?:ugh:
<<RANT OFF>>

I am getting old!:(

STH

[RAF_SARGE]

Leon wrote:-

Unable due to QR J1012 - sorry. May get wife, family and friends to do it for me though.

"So why hide behind regs, please enlighten us to these rules and regulations."

[Lima Juliet]

QRJ 1012 covers a multitude of prohibitions regarding Servicemen and involvement in politics. Petitioning the Government is a form of lobbying that this QR prohibits - I guess it's one of the reasons we get X-factor in our pay.

I read the QR recently as someone asked me to stand for membership of the local Town Council - I can't do that either without becoming an Independant and getting permission from HQ Air.

Have a read Sarge, and you might see that we do not have many political rights at all. I guess some of this goes back to the New Model Army and the Civil War?

Bottom line for me is that I am not going to willfully contravene QRs whilst I still have a sense of duty to my country and even more so to my young family.

LJ

[RAF_SARGE]

Perhaps a good call after all Leon. Must do some reading Sunday . Isn't it perverse that we have to cover our arses rather than speak out when our crappy leaders hang our arses out all the time? :mad:

[RAF_SARGE]

Oh and yeah Pprune why order a personal title when it's gonna cost me money - get bent!

[tablet_eraser]

_In most areas of the Service(s), if you have a post gapped for long enough some numb-nuts will come along and say you have managed without so you don't need it!_

I understand that Naval 'procurement' has operated in that way for some years.

[JessTheDog]

QRs prohibit a number of things: active membership of a trade union, participation in political parties, events, demonstrations. It is a few years since I laid eyes on QRs but I don't think this has changed.

It is possible that the march may foul of the particular regulation. Much of this would be down to the nature of the march: whether it was a "political demonstration" or not. A restrained march focused on some broad key messages could be argued as being non-political. Further digging is needed - I am interested in the circumstances surrounding the Save the Scottish Regiments marches and the Police Federation march.

Note that the-then Min AF, Adam Ingram, conceded in early 2006 that membership of a non-union Federation could not be opposed by the Ministry of Defence as it did not constitute a breach of QRs.

If the march did constitute an acknowledged breach of QRs then further questions would need to be asked:

- would the march succeed with only ex-serving and families? The government message would be that no serving were complaining or marching although this would be difficult to reconcile with a ban.

- would serving personnel be willing to march? I left in 2004 but I was angry enough then to have participated, given the opportunity. Things have become worse since then!

- would disciplinary or administrative action be taken against marchers? My feeling is that this would depend on the likely level of participation and the stance of the government. Such action would be very difficult in the event of mass participation, and also in PR terms - would SIB, RAFP etc be scanning CCTV for images of faces and asking personnel what they did in their off-duty time? It may be viewed as more convenient to turn a blind eye.

- would there be the prospect of a legal challenge or a judicial review of any instruction or order not to participate, under HRA for example? If so, then this is one reason why the blind eye approach may be preferable.

The bottom line is the willingness of serving personnel to participate. This is very much an individual decision with a lot of factors to weigh up. Is the situation so dire - with no prospect of improvement, only further decline - that such a radical step is appropriate, indeed necessary? How does this fit with centuries of tradition? Is inaction worse than action? These are questions that only the individual can answer.

[casino335]

This is just my opinion as a humble civvie. Firstly, i think defence spending comes pretty low on the list when you ask joe public about their main concerns for the country (so it isn't really an election winner). The public's concern (and anger) about being heavily involved in Iraq seems to be more of a question of whether it was illegal or not, rather than troops being killed or a lack of equipment.
Previous Labour heavy defence cuts happened when the economy was strong and buoyant, so i dread to think what future defence cuts are going to be like when you consider the economy is looking fragile and nervous (i think a lot of stealth cuts could be on the cards). What would lose the Government more votes: closing a few a&e wards or scraping a few tornado squadrons (doubt the latter would even make the local paper)? Also, the welfare budget is going through the roof and someone has just used my money to buy a bank i didn't want (me,me).

We still seem to live in a "me, me" country where if it doesn't effect No.1 then i don't really care.

I really think that we are at the beginning of the end in being heavily involved at the cutting edge in wars like Afghanistan, etc. I'm sure we will start to slowly turn around into a more French and German way of doing things through NATO, rather than being little brother to the US, when the time arises...e.g not straying into southern Afghanistan and not committing too much. Even more reason to cut back.

[Chugalug2]

You may well be right casino335, but that is not what this angst is about. What the Armed Forces need, and should be getting, is proper manpower and equipment for the tasking set them by HMG via MOD. They are not getting anything like that. It has got to the point where it is costing lives, even when the enemy are not involved. By all means cut back commitments and trim defence capability accordingly, but in the meantime you can't get a quart out of a pint pot. The government and especially the MOD is dysfunctional, the worse case scenario is that they will visit their dysfunction onto the Services. We cannot be far from that point now and urgent action is needed to avoid a calamity. That is why we must protest, that is why the CoSs must protest. It is our duty, it is their duty.

[casino335]

i agree with what you are saying Chugalug. In a perfect world our armed forces should be given a blank cheque, thou in a prefect world you shouldn't need armed forces.

Hasn't it historically always been the case that our armed forces are short changed and left to "make do"? I could be totally wrong here but didn't a MP called (i think) John Knott decommission the RN's "proper" carriers just before the Falklands war: the type of operation/conflict they were designed for?

I think what i'm trying to say is i can't see hundreds of thousands of members of the public, or members of the forces protesting down in London about poor equipment, manpower levels or any other armed forces related issue unless it involved (so-called) illegally going to war with another country.

[Guzlin Adnams]

:ok:This civvy has just signed the petition. Well done Chappie. As Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel said........er....sang....Dont give up !:D
(Me thinks most if not all on the forum support you.)

[Chugalug2]

No one should get a blank cheque from the taxpayer, casino335, but he should pay for the cost of what his government calls on the men and women of the Armed Forces to do on his behalf. It's the military covenant we hear so much about and it's been broken according to the British Legion, amongst others. You don't get to pick and choose the wars you pay for, they don't get to pick and choose the wars they fight. They may be volunteers, but once attestated they are subject to military law until released from service. They are fully aware of their obligations, I fear that this government, and a substantial part of the citizenry, are not.

[Phil_R]

> but he should pay for the cost of what his government calls on the men and
> women of the Armed Forces to do on his behalf.

Point of order.

Obviously, if people are going to be asked to do this work, they should be properly funded. Lack of foam in Herc tanks etc a daft state of affairs. No argument.

But. Certainly with regard to Iraq, you need to be very careful about claiming that it's being done on Joe Public's behalf, because in many cases Joe Public objected very much to it being done and would not want it done in his name. You can't legitimately play to someone's sense of duty under these circumstances.

Much more I could say but am conscious of causing gratuitous offence; suffice to say that I'd much rather nobody got killed, be they UK service personnel or some middle-eastern farmer's son who's spent his life being indoctrinated and miliatrised by the culture he grew up in.

Phil

[nav attacking]

Casino

I really think that we are at the beginning of the end in being heavily involved at the cutting edge in wars like Afghanistan, etc. I'm sure we will start to slowly turn around into a more French and German way of doing things through NATO, rather than being little brother to the US, when the time arises...e.g not straying into southern Afghanistan and not committing too much. Even more reason to cut back.

You have hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately that seems to be the answer as far as the vast majority of Joe Public is concerned. If we were to fall back like the rest of NATO then how much longer would the American public carry on supporting it as an organisation, why should they? If that were the case we would be forced into an ineffective European Organisation that wouldn't agree on anything. Each nation to its own agenda, just look at Kosovo where the French provaracated, sent a force, and then failed to support when the crunch came forcing a stand-off with the Russians over Pristina Airfield. Lets face it without the US it just wouldn't work. We can't agree on issues within the the EEC or whatever they want to call it now so how are we ever going to agree over which war to fight. Maybe the answer is a Unified Europe led by one decisive parliament with a strong leader:yuk::yuk::yuk: Shudder the thought....

Phil-R

Of course Iraq was done on Joe Public's behalf! Our democratically elected government sent us there, government has to make tough decisions and the public can't be expected to have a say all of the time, true democracy will not work. Also the public need to be told the truths occasionally and not just hoodwinked by spin. Iraq was not only a tactical move to remove a thorn in the side but a strategic move in an attempt to secure a more peaceful Middle East and hence a more stable oil supply, just as it was in the 1940's. It may also have been a thinly disguised cover to put further military pressure on the growing threat from Iran, they must now feel very threatened with coalition (US) forces virtually on all sides.

Sometimes a government's job is not always acceptable to the public. It is only by intelligent explaination and engagement with the public that you will fully get its support. Not the bull$£!t of spin that most intellectual people see through straight away. Unfortunately once spun the web of deceipt stays with you.

[Chugalug2]

Certainly with regard to Iraq, you need to be very careful about claiming that it's being done on Joe Public's behalf, because in many cases Joe Public objected very much to it being done and would not want it done in his name.

Phil_R, Nav attacking has replied far more authoritatively to your post than I could, and I commend him. I would merely point out that in the order of your points above:
Yes I was, yes he did, bad luck because it was. Forking out taxes for what you object to is the very crux of how democracy works. Protesting your objection is your inalienable right, paying the taxes is your inalienable duty. Condemning the government for said decisions likewise your privilege, being indifferent to those who are duty bound to carry them out is callow and short sighted. Without them, the problems will be soon on your doorstep big time, and you would be on your own!

[Phil_R]

The main thrust of the argument being presented here would seem to be that I am required to have faith in the government simply on the basis of the process which put them in power, regardless of who I voted for or what my opinions are. If that is your interpretation of how a democracy works, then let us just say that I fundamentally disagree; you cannot claim to be undertaking something "on my behalf" without my approval.

I don't want to get drawn off into an analysis of the whole "oil war" thing other than to say that I reject your thesis on the intentions for it entirely. It has made it far harder politically to threaten Iran on the basis that a similar campaign in Iraq has been such a gigantic cluster****.

But the point here is not why it's believed to be a bad idea, it's simply that it is believed to be a bad idea, for some pretty good reasons. If you expect people people to unwaveringly support wrongheaded policy on the basis of a hale devotion to parliamentary democracy, you are doomed to disappointment.

On the upside think of the situation you'd be in with all these cuts happening and no current deployments to argue with.

[Tigs2]

Phil R

Certainly with regard to Iraq, you need to be very careful about claiming that it's being done on Joe Public's behalf, because in many cases Joe Public objected very much to it being done and would not want it done in his name.

Nav, and Chugalug have got it right, I am afraid you have got it wrong. How an earth can you expect to have your say and be listened to on every item of government expenditure, across all public departments?? As has been said these (idiots) are the democratically elected idiots, that we idiots voted in. There is no need to be careful about which conflict we discuss. If we as a nation send our troops in to harms way, then they should be provided with the equipment and medical back up to do the job as safely as is possible under those conditions. The troops should not be spending around 1000 pounds on average, kitting themselves out to do the job we send them to do. It is nothing to do with blank cheques, it is to do with resourcing the job correctly.

[Dan D'air]

Honour the Covenant Swiss.

[Phil_R]

Tigs, I completely agree that under-funding these operations is madness. And yes, it is one of the greatest faults of democracy that it puts power in the hands of the winners of a rather childish popularity contest. It's particularly reprehensible that people are using the armed forces for political ends, then refusing to fund them properly, also for political ends. Despicable behaviour.

All I'm saying is that if you want to garner support for this sort of thing, don't go down the "we're doing it on your behalf" route because by doing that, you give the appearance of aligning yourself with those political powers, who tend to say similar things.

P

[Sunray Minor]

Tigs2,

I think Phil's point is a march through the middle of London, by a military complaining of poor treatment, will have as much resonance with the city's population as the countryside alliance march did - little or none. This is especially the case when there is such opposition to the war, Joe tax-payer is being asked to foot the bill, and compounded by visible multi-billion pound procurements (Typhoon, Trident replacement, Astute, etc) amongst general wastage in the MoD....I hope you can see why Joe Public might be less than sympathetic to claims of underfunding, or confident that added expenditure will be spent where it is needed.

The public itself isn't innately indifferent to the military I don't think, but the military and the public have had a wedge driven between them by a government decision to go into an unpopular and unnecessary war. It should also be noted that any indifference that does exist is, as always, pretty well reciprocated by the military towards the public - the nature of this particular conflict is utterly divisive.

Likewise, the claim that Iraq is occurring on "the behalf" of Joe Public is simply not true. Democracy is more than a vote every four years - it is the ability to oppose and influence government at any point during those fours years. It is undoubtedly the case that a massive proportion of the population, particularly in places like London, stridently opposed our entry in to the Iraq war and were forthright in vocalising that opposition - to deaf ears. Now that we're are engaged in the war they opposed, it becomes somewhat difficult to switch from vehement opposition to pro-actively supporting increased expenditure on such a conflict. From a slightly cynical perspective, this is likely to be seen by the public as a thin end of the wedge - war justifies increased expenditure, increasing the military budget and influence at a time when the military is seen to be acting against the wishes of the public. The military itself can only be muted in the run-up to war which further entrenches this perspective.

The correct (but impractical) course of action would be a blank cheque, one written by those who supported the war in the first place as I suspect they were the ones who though they would either profit from or suffer little from the decision to go to war.

Out of interest, where would you best propose any increased funding come from? Increased taxation? Cutbacks? Or the MoD getting its priorities right with the resources it currently holds?


Nav Attacking,

The rationale you give for the war, whether valid or not, does not make the war in the interests of of Joe Public, for the very reason that much of the public opposition was to the very reasons you use as justifications.

[mutleyfour]

Point to note:

The cuts/delays have not yet been decided or announced, so should we holdfire until then at least.

[casino335]

I agree with what Sunray is saying. I've got a sneaky feeling that the MOD/ government with be carrying out any cutbacks (to come) in a stealthy type way - a few squadrons going quietly, etc,etc. I don't think they will have a large defence review, as with the likes with Geoff Hoon, when the RN was hit particularly hard. Also, there are a lot of other countries cutting back too so it isn't an exclusive problem to the UK....e.g... F22 orders around 180 (a lot less than wanted) to replace 675 odd F15 and recent German cutbacks. I guess most people that post on here are ex servicemen/women (or current ones) and i guess defence cuts are seen as a slap in the face, especially when they are doing the job they have been trained for. I also can't see the government cutting any of the other main budgets which aren't exactly in good health (health, education, crime,etc) to bolster spending on defence...e.g...the NHS not issuing certain cancer treatments because they are too expensive -the list goes on and on. Futhermore, at the end of March 07 government debt was £574 billion!

[Mr-AEO]

Point to note:

The cuts/delays have not yet been decided or announced, so should we holdfire until then at least.I doubt they will 'announce' anything. Like has already been said, they will most probably salami slice and fudge the problem to next year, forcing a Planning Round 09.....when's the next election? FY 08/09 will be more pain and we have some big bills coming our way, time to cross fingers & toes and deploy our smoke & mirrors.

[Guzlin Adnams]

So how much do we pump into Europe every day?.......
Northern Rock, London Underground, Health Service IT, KPI's......
I'll get my coat...a white one:sad:

[Tigs2]

Phil

I understand your point.

Sunray

I agree with what you are saying. Just to distil my ramblings, let me make my position more simple. In my last rant I was not really comenting on the usefulness of a march. My stance is this , I am totally 100% against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the whys and wherefores do not matter. However, despite my 100% opposition to these conflicts, the fact that we now put our young men and women in harms way to carry out government policy and send them in to theatre without the right equipment is reprehensible. I would go further and say it is criminal. Now that the government has chosen this course of action everything possible must be done in the way of support for our servicemen, an attitude which should be reflected by the public.

As Dan puts even more simply and effectively 'Honour the covenant'.


Guzlin

I don't know but it must be a lot. Just to give an idea. I went to a residents meeting in London a few weeks ago because they were going to shut down Shephards Bush Central Line station till October ( Infact they have done now). They were looking at the installation of two lifts at the station. The cost for this installation is 25 million pounds!! (on a keyboard with no pound sign!)!! Now that strikes me as a lot of body armour, NVGs and armour plated vehicles.

[Guzlin Adnams]

Tigs,
I was on about the scheme to refurbish the infrastructure of the underground. The dear government wanted to transfer risk to the private sector. It didn't work out and although the consortium that was put together to carry out the work had to pay about £300m after they pulled out of the deal the dear taxpayer is down to loose a figure that goes over a billion. Sorry this is in simple terms but it's late and I've consumed nearly a bottle of Shiraz Cabernet. I'm sure that somebody can fill in the many gaps that I've left but that's the jist of it. Seems to me that the money is there if the government wants it to be.:*

[Archimedes]

If the Times is to be believed, the light at the end of the tunnel perceived to be in the form of David Cameron might be an onrushing train - a £28 billion increase in NHS spending commitment for the next Tory govt is on the way, according to the shadow health bod, and guess where some of the money would come from?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3449050.ece

[chappie]

after having been away for a few days (actually away not flouncing off away) have returned to find only 47 signatures on the petition. admittedly i could not get as much done as i wished before i left, therefore i will now do the official spreading the word, but i do wish to know whether this really is something that is going to fizzle out and amount to nothing. no one has asked me to do this, i have been aware and understood the constraints placed on you all but i want to know do you support or want this to happen? like i said in my last post, or should i say hissy fit (which in hindsight was a bit prissy, i apologise!) i do not want to offend you guys, i want to help. these cuts affect you. not me, it's too late for me and mine, but not you and yours.

i'll remind you of petition thread thingy www.PetitionOnline.com/bobsis1/petition.html (http://www.PetitionOnline.com/bobsis1/petition.html)
please sign.

[Chugalug2]

Hi Chappie, welcome back to the fray! As regards your petition it might be getting some competition from these 11 Downing Street ones that an arbitrary "Support Armed Forces" search produced.
http://search.petitions.pm.gov.uk/kbroker/number10/petitions/search.lsim?ha=1157&sc=number10&qt=Support+Armed+Forces (http://search.petitions.pm.gov.uk/kbroker/number10/petitions/search.lsim?ha=1157&sc=number10&qt=Support+Armed+Forces)
At least one of them got a 'bite', witness this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315845
In summary the pressure is on, albeit from many quarters. Whereas the only foe that the Armed Forces should really fear is the MOD; this government, including the MOD, really only fears public opinion and its electoral effects. As long as the British Public were ignorant of Cornet Wales whereabouts they were relaxed. As soon as we were privy to that information known to Terry and the rest of the world he is out of there. Don't relent, keep up the good work and they will relent, not because it is the right thing, they don't do that, but because it is the expedient thing! :ok:

[chappie]

thanks for the heads up. i did originally do the no10 thing but it stated that there were others. my point that i made a while back about the signtures counting not the source or where the petition came from seems ro be confirmed in my mind. when i decided to initiate the petition calling for ESF on hercs i utulised the service of petiton online service and was just shy of 3000 signatures. i have looked at the other petitions that were on the no10 web and the number of signatures to each of these petition areas are appalling, apart from the better healthcare one. i am glad to see such support for the aforementioned petition but i do think it's a travesty that there are barely a handful of signatures to the petitions on the site.

the offer of organising this still stands and liasons or should i say liasing is taking place. this is a serious proposition. it is not right that you guys suffer. if we accept the cuts and mis treatment of armed forces then it will be a matter of time that's all before you lose someone you know, and ask yourself this how would you feel should that happen and you learn that it could have been avoided?

sign the petition. show support for yourself and your colleagues. we can do this.

[Lima Juliet]

Chappie

[Banter On]

There is this little button on your keyboard...

http://grownupgeek.com/capslock.jpg

...have you ever thought about using it???

[Banter Off]

sorry i couldn't resist

lj

PS Last sentence translated in "Chappie" type face. ;)

[tablet_eraser]

Caps Lock Is Only Appropriate When You're Shouting!

Aaaaaargh!

Goodness. I actually posted that in all caps, and it's titleised it! How odd...

[Lima Juliet]

Caps Lock Is Only Appropriate When You're Shouting!


What if you only have one arm or you are a one-finger typist? Have you been EO trained my friend :E

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

OK, OK for including everyone...

You can also use this key for the able-bodied amongst us...

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/58/16/22421658.jpg

LJ :ok:

[serf]

So what, if anything, was decided by the DMB re the latest planning round?

[mutleyfour]

Dont think its resits until tomorrow or thursday, then to ministers so no news for a wee while i assume.

[tablet_eraser]

That last pic appears to be from an Apple keyboard, LJ.

All is forgiven.

[xrba]

Apple keyboard? Try option 3, ££££££££, works for me!

[backTOfront]

Petition signed and at 67 now. Thanks for all your hard work, (sorry forgot to check who set it all up, my bad):D

Considering I am a "merc" and have the probability of having to give up my original citizenship up to carrying on fighting for this country, I think I have a right to march if I think the train set is broken. On the plus I am single so I say damn the bloody QRs, something needs to be done.

If the march is organised then I will be there in uniform, civies or naked, I don't care. Ol Brown wants us to wonder round in uniform to drum up support for the services, well lets see what an impact it makes if a while lot of uniforms all of a sudden rock up outside no 10. It will help if we can get some senior ranks there in uniforms, like 1 star above. That way it will prove to the rest of us lesser mortals that we are not foresaken and that some of our leadership are still willing to fight for the men under their command.

In the reg (paras not raf) there is an organisation called the TLF(Toms Liberation Front). This forms only when the privates have exhausted all other means for their complaints to be heard. I have only seen it happen once. Once it did, by god did things turn around quickly. It made all NCOs, and officers up to the CO sit up and take notice and amend the problem within a week. Thats what happens when a group of soldiers stick together. Since it is a group of numerous people, no legal action is taken and everything is kept on the quiet. Less the CO or any other officers decide to become suicidal about their careers, which is not really going to happen. So if a large amount of uniforms march on No10, what will they do? Nothing.

Rant over, box burnt and I need to drown my sorrows! :*

[chappie]

LJ,

IS THIS OKAY?! FEEL LIKE I AM SHOUTING WHEN I WRITE IN CAPITALS, OR DOES THAT ONLY COME ACROSS WHEN IN BOLD OR ITALICS?
MY LACK OF CAPS LOCK USAGE IS A NATIONAL DISGRACE, I AGREE, BUT I NORMALLY HAVE A BABY HANGING OFF ME WHILE I AM TRYING TO GET ON THE COMPUTER SO I SIMPLY TRY TO GET MY POINT ACROSS IN THE QUICKEST WAY POSSIBLE!!

i will of course make the effort when and where i can, just for you. it's important to have all on side. fnar, fnar!:}

This march is not a pipe dream, it is a reality and is necessary. No uniform though. This is not meant in an anti war or political way. I just want your voices to be heard.

[Gainesy]

Have any dates yet been proposed for this march?

[chappie]

it is being thought that possibly late july or early august.

i shall liase later today and come back with the plan.

i need you all to spread the word.....and if you wish, to sign the petition.
i will not sit back and let you suffer the effects of a broken covenenant and ineffective equipment supplies.

[Beatriz Fontana]

http://www.britishbattles.com/great-boer-war/spion-kop/murderous-acre.jpg

Tigs2,

I completely agree with you, as Dan so very effectively put it,

Honour the Covenant

The picture above, whilst being tragic, I feel effectively illustrates the sacrifice made by servicemen and women to make this country free, something which our current powers that be have no concept of and the fact that they are now being betrayed by this current government is a national disgrace.

We are very lucky indeed to have people who are prepared to do what they do and are full of the values of self-sacrifice, selflessness and decency, despite the way that they are treated.