OAT/NetJets Europe Stage 2 [Archive]

Nichibei Aviation

20th Feb 2008, 11:35

I would like to inform some of you.

You guys are paying 195GBP+accommodation+transportation for an assessment?

At the end of the assessment you will contract a loan with high interest rates for over 63000GBP?

I think many forget to read between the lines on this page:

In addition to the security of employment with NetJets Europe, successful OAA/NetJets candidates will benefit from a special cadet entry First Officer salary programme. In addition to a cadet entry salary of €36,500 per annum, NetJets Europe will also pay those selected for the cadet programme a further €20,000 pa towards repayment of any training costs until such time that the course training costs have been repaid (€56,500 in total for your first year of employment). It is anticipated a full training cost reimbursement will be paid off within 5-6 years of employment with NetJets Europe, at which time the cadet entry First Officer switches to the First Officer salary scale with accrued company seniority from date of joining the airline.

Don't forget to add accommodation expenses at Oxford and your food expenses during training.

You ain't earning much in the first 5 to 6 years, and you are earning exactly 0 on the first year...

Don't mean to break your dreams, just think twice!

Potential

20th Feb 2008, 12:57

Jim,

There are no scheduled flights to Oxford. Your best option is to get a cheap flight to Heathrow, one of the other London airports, Bristol or Birmingham, then get a bus or train to Oxford city and then a local bus to the airport.

When I went I was coming from Ireland. I flew to Bristol, got a train to Oxford, then got a bus that dropped me right at the entrance to the airport.

With over 230 trains a day and the highest number of bus services per capita in the UK, you should be able to find a train/bus to suit your schedule.

woskam

20th Feb 2008, 15:45

Hi all,

I've had my dates through as the 7th & 8th March, anybody else here attending the same days?

Nichibei Aviation, I don't really get what you're trying to say...I understand that it is a little expensive, but then there is the guarantee of a job at the other end AND the majority of your expenses repaid to you. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but could you perhaps explain it more clearly?

Ghostie31

20th Feb 2008, 16:07

Hey Charlotte,

Yea my dates are the same but I cant do the Tuesday or the week before so I've asked them if its possible to re-schedule it. If your succesful do you mind me asking what you are going to do about the loan? Does it bother you that it is a secured loan?

G

hollingworthp

20th Feb 2008, 17:17

Nichibei Aviation

Do you really think the package is all that bad for a low-hours first job:

Basic salary €36,500 - taxed
Optional 6 extra service days €4,200 - taxed
Fee repayment contribution €20,000 - tax-free for UK residents
Per diem €70 for 200 flying days €14,000 - tax-free
Per diems for optional 6 extra days €420 - tax free

So if you opt for the extra 6 days (just opting for them means you get the money, regardless of whether you are actually called in) then you will get:
Taxable income: €40,700 (£30,681.3)
Non-Taxable income: €34,420 (£25,947.2)

If you convert to sterling then run through one of the numerous tax websites this gives you a NET income of:
£22,545.57 NET
+ £25,947.2 Tax-Free
= £48493.07 NET

In order to net the same amount with a standard (basic salary only) package, you would need a basic salary of £72,500.

If there is a better cadet package out there - i would LOVE to hear about it as I clearly will have made the wrong choice going for NJE :D

By earning 0 in the first year, I can only assume you are referring to getting paid DURING your training - there can't be too many roles out there that do that. However, the above package kicks in from day 1 with the company.

PS - there is no obiligation to take the loan from HSBC so you are welcome to finance it any way you wish.

PPS - the section about reverting to the standard first office payscales simply refers to the point when your training costs have been re-imbursed, the €20,000 is no longer tax-free.

Nichibei Aviation

20th Feb 2008, 17:53

Dear Woskam,

From the OAA website:

Under the cadet training programme OAA training currently costs £61,800 plus £4,250 for the CAA test fees (these figures may be subject to marginal adjustment for courses starting in 2008). Included in the price are 20 weeks room only accommodation in Phoenix plus the two weeks accommodation during the additional aerobatic/unusual attitude advance handling and VFR training courses. This will mean that you will need to cover any other expenses, which are effectively limited to approximately 43 weeks Oxford accommodation, and of course food.
For UK resident cadets, OAA offers a bespoke HSBC loan programme for all APP FO students. The OAA/NetJets Europe cadets will qualify for a secured loan of up to £60,000, subject to meeting the HSBC standard eligibility requirements.
For non UK resident cadets, NetJets and OAA are discussing loan options with various European banks. In the meantime, cadets may secure their own loan in country of residence or self fund. This can be discussed in more detail during the advanced stages of selection.

So 66 000GBP for the training only.
66 000GBP is approx 86 000€.

Loan paid over 8 years (2 years training + 6 years Netjet) at a rate of 8% per year= 8 x 8%= 64% interest.

86 000 + 64% = 141 000€ to the bank.

(Plus accommodation at Oxford 10 months = 141 000 + 6000 = 147 000€ total investment)

-First year: 56 500€ paycheck, 56 500€ loan payback, no income taxes.
Money over=0€, no money over for living costs, will have to pay for car and gas to get to the nearest airport and uniform cleaning.

Remaining loan= 141 000-56 500=84 500€

-2nd year: 56500€ paycheck-25% income taxes=42 375€
20 000€ loan payback
Money over = 22 3750€ (Average ab-initio pay)

Remaining loan= 64500€

-3rd year: 56 500€ paycheck-25% income taxes=42 375€
20 000€ loan payback
Money over = 22 3750€ (Average ab-initio pay)

Remaining loan= 44 500€

-4th year: 56 500€ paycheck-25% income taxes=42 375€
20 000€ loan payback
Money over = 22 3750€ (Average ab-initio pay)

Remaining loan=24 500€

-5th year: 56 500€ paycheck-25% income taxes=42 375€
20 000€ loan payback
Money over = 22 3750€ (Average ab-initio pay)

Remaining loan= 4500EUR

-6th year: 56 500EUR paycheck-25% income taxes=42 375€
4500€ loan payback
Money over = 37875€ (good first officer pay)

I am just informing you where OAA fails to inform you as they should.
Also, remember that your dream is your weakness.

PS: Portugal taxes high salary scales very hard. 25% is an estimate but higher taxes are likely. I understand that Netjets doesn't pay per diem's to cadets.

Fee repayment contribution €20,000 - tax-free for UK residents

Why would it be tax free for UK students only? Netjets is paying it and Netjets is based in Portugal which means that Portuguese law applies.
Under EU law any income is taxable unless linked to compensation of direct costs (uniform, transportation, food) related directly to the exercise of the job.

Even a repayment by Netjets to the bank is considered income and is taxable. The reason why I did not make the first year taxable is because Netjets can justify these costs as being direct hiring and training costs that can be justified by type-rating and line training needs.
That is no longer the case for the next years.

Nichibei Aviation

20th Feb 2008, 18:37

PPS - the section about reverting to the standard first office payscales simply refers to the point when your training costs have been re-imbursed, the €20,000 is no longer tax-free.

The 20 000€ is to make this amount of your paycheck available to the bank in order to avoid you spending the whole 56 500€ and not repaying your loan. It is just there as a warranty to the bank and not because it's tax-free or anything like that because that would be fraud.
The only part that can be tax-reducing in very few EU countries is the interest repayment which can lead to tax discounts. Don't know if it's the case with Portugal. The tax reduction would not be significant anyway, maybe 2 or 3% on average.

mattia_70

20th Feb 2008, 18:45

Jim 79,

take a low cost flight to either Luton or Stansted and then bus to Oxford (you might have to change, I don't remember exactly but check on www.nationalexpress.co.uk (http://www.nationalexpress.co.uk)).
Then city bus between Oxford centre and Kidlington Airport (where OAT is located). Accomodation: try the hostel in Oxford.

cheers
Mattia

hollingworthp

20th Feb 2008, 18:52

The 20 000€ is to make this amount of your paycheck available to the bank in order to avoid you spending the whole 56 500€ and not repaying your loan. It is just there as a warranty to the bank and not because it's tax-free or anything like that because that would be fraud.
The only part that can be tax-reducing in very few EU countries is the interest repayment which can lead to tax discounts. Don't know if it's the case with Portugal. The tax reduction would not be significant anyway, maybe 2 or 3% on average.It would take me too long to pick all the holes in your logic - but for now, a quick google reveals::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Application of Section 250 to Pre-Employment Training (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/bulletins/tb64.htm)

5. In order to qualify for exemption under Section 250 ITEPA 2003 the reimbursement must relate to the cost of _"work-related training". Work-related training is defined in Section 251 (formerly, Section 200B(5) and (6) ICTA 1988). The definition includes, inter alia, training for a future job with the employee's employer but does not, except in very limited circumstances (see para 9 below) cover the reimbursement by a new employer of training expenses incurred by the employee before the employment began.
9. We recognise, however, that cases will arise where the link between the employment and the pre-commencement training is so strong that the reimbursement should also qualify for exemption. For example, if an individual has accepted an employment offer from a new employer, to start work in the reasonably near future, and the individual then pays for work related training (within Section 251(1)) for that job, exemption will not be denied if the employer agrees to reimburse those costs after the employment has begun. If there is no such demonstrable link between the individual's undertaking the training and the particular employment that they subsequently obtain, the reimbursement of the pre-employment training costs will continue to be outside the exemption.The contract is UK-based and the tax-law quoted above only applies to UK residents.

Nichibei Aviation

20th Feb 2008, 19:23

Very possible.
Thanks for the link holling, it is very interesting to know.

Now let me expand further from my side.
2 quotes from: http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-27664-p-3.html

for FO's :
gross salary = 56500
- 8% of National Insurance tax to the UK
- 25% of income tax to Portugal

=> 56500 - 8% ~ 52000 €
52000 - 25% ~ 39000 € ~ 3250 € / month net salary

Then you can add extra days if you comply with (~250€/month) and per diem. But per diem are used to pay food, transportation to your gateway, ...etc.
For CPT, do the same calculation and you'll find ~ 5400€/month without per diem and extra days.

I suggest you contact the income tax department of your country to check if there is any agreement between Portugal and your country. In Europe, some countries have it and it is not necessary to pay other taxes in our own country. Northern countries don't seem to have these agreement:sad:

fred

erikv
23rd February 2007, 07:54

fred,

I believe the 25% and the 8% are both taken out of the basic sum of 56500.

NI: 8% of 56500 = 4520
Tax: 25% of 56500 = 14125

56500-4520-12125 = 37885, roughly 3150 per month.

Erik

Even if contracts are UK based you have to pay the Portuguese taxes of 25% because you are working for a carrier with a Portuguese AOC (except when you are employed by an agency that sells pilot services.)
The additional 8% will come close to offseting the eventual advantage of the 20 000€ tax-free system for UK students.

redsnail

20th Feb 2008, 21:13

For the non UK and non Portuguese, the tax rate is now 20%.

The UK crews get an effective pay rise when they get paid in Euros and let their banks do the converting.

Adios

21st Feb 2008, 07:09

I am pretty sure that double taxation is not allowed in the EU, therefore, Nichibei's claim that 20% will be deducted in Portugal because they hold the AOC and then further taxation in the UK doesn't hold water. It is foolish to give tax advice if you are not an EU tax expert and even more so when your source is to quote from several PPRuNe posts! Perhaps I should say it is foolish to accept tax advice given under the above circumstances. There are plenty of web sites that can help one determine their UK tax liability and they calculate both the income tax and the National Insurance contributions, both of which are excluded in the cadet programme's tax relief feature according to OAT.

....

21st Feb 2008, 09:06

hey!!

I also applied to the NetJets programm and got accepted to stage 2. So ill see you all there.. :) I am also coming from outside of GB.. The best thing is, land in one of the London airports, then take a train from the airport to one of the main stations, such as victoria, and then there are many trains going to oxford fast or slow.. and then just take a taxi from oxford trainstation to the airport its like 15 mins drive.. not too bad..

have a great day,

Theresa

Nichibei Aviation

21st Feb 2008, 10:51

I am pretty sure that double taxation is not allowed in the EU, therefore, Nichibei's claim that 20% will be deducted in Portugal because they hold the AOC and then further taxation in the UK doesn't hold water.

I did not mention double taxation Adios.
Income tax and insurance tax (what you mention as National Insurance contributions) are two different taxes and are both applied separetely.

For instance Easyjet hires its crews on a French base with a French contract but they pay income taxes in UK because that's where the ailine and aircraft they are flying are registered. Health insurance taxes are paid in France because that's where the employees receive health care.

For the airline, labour law is that applied under the airline's flag, but several EU courthouse's have been contradicting this as we can see under the different problems Ryanair has been having.

I do not pretend to be a specialist, but I know what I'm talking about. :ok:

Jim79

21st Feb 2008, 11:01

Hi,

Thanks about travelling tips, see you there..

Jim

CaptainKill

21st Feb 2008, 16:36

Hey Charlotte

I have my assessment on the 10th and 11th March, I've passed stage 1, onto stage 2 now! Yikes:ugh:

Char1i3

21st Feb 2008, 16:44

Cool see you there!

C

Adios

21st Feb 2008, 21:22

The mathematics in post number 20 seemed a bit questionable to me, so I did a bit of tinkering in Excel. At 7.25% interest (HSBC's current rate), the payment comes to £1116 per month for six years if you assume £5,000 of interest accrues during the training at OAT. In other words, I used £65,000 as the principal instead of £60,000, the original amount borrowed.

This means the total principal and interest repaid would be £80,352.35, not the £141,000 that he arrives at with his calculations.

If you want to check it yourself, the following website shows you how to create a simple spreadsheet to calculate loan repayments: http://www.meadinkent.co.uk/excel-loan-repayments.htm

Using the first example on the above website:
Cell B2 must contain the following value: 65000
Cell B3 must contain the following value: 72
Cell B4 must contain the following value: 12
Cell B5 must contain the following value: 7.25%
Cell D6 must contain the following formula: = C6/12
Cell C7 must contain the following formula: = - PMT(C6, B4, B3, 0, 0)

I don't really know how much interest accrues during training because I don't know when the bank disburses the funds and I didn't want to bother with the rather complicated spreadsheet required to compound interest when no payments are being made, but £5K is probably overly generous. It is also likely that HSBC uses a slightly different method to calculate interest, but I can't think of any common way of calculating loan repayments that would arrive at a £60,000 difference from the above £80,352 on an original loan of £60,000, which is what Nichibei Aviation's mathematics demands.

hollingworthp

21st Feb 2008, 22:01

Adios - I spotted that too, but clearly the concept of Compound Interest was too complicated to grasp for some and could ultimately not be bothered to point out every single flaw in the arguement, but yours is certainly another good point!

Nichibei Aviation

21st Feb 2008, 23:22

You are right Adios, you can borrow only 60 000GBP I have overlooked that.

Which supposes you have to get 6000 further GBP from somewhere else as training costs 66000GBP. Add 4000GBP for Oxford accommodation and you realise that "you have to be rich, to be my girl" before even starting.

I'm bored anyway so let's do the calcs from the start again.

Considering you think Greenwich is the center of the world let's do the calculations for you UK guys:

Initial investment=10 000GBP=+/-13000EUR from own pocket

On loan= 60 000GBP

Interest rate= 5.25% base + 2%=7.25%
Over 8 years is 7.25x8=58%

60 000 + 58% = 94 800GBP = +/-125 000€

Total investment 125 000 + 13 000 EUR = 138 000€

(Caution: this is supposing the bank is a NGO. Don't forget to add all yearly insurance charges of over 300GBP for death, loss of licence, loss of job or loss of medical.)

Now let's consider that a UK contract allows the income taxes to be paid in the UK. That would suggest a taxable income that falls into the 22% tax rate grid. So let's be optimistic and assume the more favorable 20% taxe rate if paid in Portugal.

Now let's look at the NIC: Your taxable weekly income is below 770GBP per week so you will pay 11% NIC taxes in the year 08/09.

Added together that would make a 20+11 = 31% total taxes on taxable incomes.

Year 1: 56 500€ paycheck - 56 500 loan repayment=0€ taxable.
No money for living, loan repayments remaining 68 500€.

Year 2: 56 500€ paycheck - 20 000€ loan repayment = 36 500€ taxable.
36 500 EUR-31%=25 185EUR for living. loan remaining 48 500€

Year 3: same, loan remaining 28 500€

Year 4: same, loan remaining 8 500€

Per diem's if available on the cadet scheme will be very needed for different local expenses. Do not expect any on the first year as you will be on line training, type-rating and on standby most of the time.

The length of the loan repayments of 5 to 6 years mentionned on their website suggest that you are not getting paid during type-rating and line training :cool:

not the £141,000 that he arrives at with his calculations.

For your information it's EUR, €, euro. The eye sees what it wants to see.

Adios

22nd Feb 2008, 00:31

7.25x8 does indeed equal 58, but that is about the only thing in Nichibei's mathematics that makes any sense. If one is making monthly payments for the last six of those 8 years, the principle goes down each month, so the figure the interest is applied to drops. The result is that each subsequent payment contains more principle and less interest. It's called amortization.

If he wants to get a mortgage on those terms, I'll loan him the money myself because I'll make a killing! Heck, even Northern Rock would still be afloat if that was how banks calculate interest!

I am afraid that if I tried to rebut him line by line that I'd end up with a migraine.

clanger32

22nd Feb 2008, 09:33

Oh Deary Me.

Nicibei, I'm sorry, because this is going to seem like I'm now having a go at you directly, and I promise you that isn't the case. In the last two threads I've been active on, you come across as though you have a serious axe to grind with OAA. This does not make you the only one. However, your arguments and discussions lose any credibility when they are so deeply flawed. I am not in any shape related to the Netjets scheme, although I did apply for it and unfortunately got turned down in Lisbon. But.

Firstly, as HollingworthP pointed out, the package NJE are offering their cadets is pretty damn good and is certainly just about the highest starting package I've heard of for any airline for low hour pilots. This includes BA, BMI and certainly Ryanair etc.

Secondly, IF YOU UNDERTAKE TRAINING YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT - REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU ARE SPONSORED OR NOT. You seem to have got very confused by the fact that this is a Netjets scheme and seem to think that this makes the repayment requirements different from all the rest of us out there self sponsoring. Surely you cannot question that having a portion of your salary paid to you tax free as some kind of reimbursement of your training costs is better for the cadet than having ALL of your starting salary taxed and then having to service a loan post tax? With that in mind, the costs the NJE cadets are expected to bear are no different than those a normal APP FO cadet pays, save that a portion of their salary is paid tax free, to assist with repaying.

Thirdly, you seem to have completely misunderstood the payment NJE are offering. To clarify, although HollingworthP has already stated this clearly - and ONLY looking at basics, so no per diems or extra days, to keep it simple - a "normal" F/O (experienced) FO going to NJE earns about €56500 first year. This is ALL taxed at whatever the national rate is for their country of domicile. For the purposes of simplicity, the NJE cadets get paid €36500 SALARY - which will be taxed at prevailing rates - and a further €20000 as "course reimbursement". This does NOT go direct to the bank, it is paid, TAX FREE in the cadets salary package, to make their salary up to the €56500 NJE first office rate. If you have no loan, you get that €20000 tax free, in toto. Your calculations all include some element of €56500 being taxed then €20000 on top, which is NI'd before being multiplied by the square root of 34005 and growing a daisy....you're overcomplicating the sums needlessly.

Fourthly, you postulate that a NJE cadet will earn nothing first year as the entire first year salary in your sums goes against the outstanding loan. Well, that wouldn't be very good business of NJE, would it? Having their F/Os living in a cardboard box? No. No bank in the world would provide a loan where the entire first year earnings were offsetting against the loan, for the simple reason it is clearly unsustainable. You seem to have a reducing lump sum payment per year - again, not the way the banking industry works I'm afraid. Generally, banks work by taking the capital sum, working out the total interest over the duration of the loan and dividing by the loan term to find a monthly payment. At least this is the way the banks I worked in do it, but clearly you're going to know better than I... So, let's use your figures (I've not looked too hard at them, so I'll assume correct for what it's worth) €138000 total owing. Divided by 6 years, equals approx €1900 per month, or €23000 a year. Oh look, handy how that works out as pretty much the sum that NJE give you TAX FREE to pay your loan back, isn't it... So the NJE cadets, on basic pay alone - and assuming they have to borrow the entire, full amount, are going to walk away with €36500 per year, first year, which will be taxed (lets say leaving €27000) of which a further €3k is needed to service the loan, according to your figures. So take home, AFTER REPAYMENTS would be €2000 per month. Admittedly, you're not going to be buying Buckingham palace on that, but it's still a VERY good salary for a low hour pilot, with all training costs accounted for, plus a type rating you don't have to pay for.

I don't mean to be harsh, but it's quite hard to take your comments seriously on this thread when they are SO wide of the mark in just about every single aspect. It's clear you have either not read the terms of the scheme or have just totally misunderstood them. You may have an axe to grind, but please make sure you have a strong argument before embarking on ginding it!

Nichibei Aviation

22nd Feb 2008, 12:02

I'm not blaming NJE/OAA scheme, I'm blaming all kinds and sorts of expensive integrated courses.

65 000GBP, my friend :ugh:

The problem with such a sponsored course is that the illusion is even more difficult to differenciate from the reality and people start being optimistic like member Hollingworth.

Look at the intial investment: OAA accommodation+the part you can't finance=minimum 10 000GBP.

If you have that cash you can get yourself PPL + Pre-IR requirements.

Work during one year while you train modular to gather 15 000GBP and get CPL IR ME. You can already start applying.

Work another 8 months and put another 10 000GBP together and go to USA for multi-engine hour building during the annual leave.

Work til you find a pilot job.

Find a job at 2000€ per month. If you are engaged by then and want to contract a mortgage to buy a house, the bankier will nod instead of kicking you out of his office if on a OAA loan.

Earn 2000€ per month during 2 years. Pay rise on the third year.
You decide: go to NJE for more money or stay.

You win 2 years over the NJE cadet and have broader carrier opportunities and what's most important: no pressure.

Imagine yourself :mad: up a landing with a NJE Hawker on the first year.
You will not pay a cent for the repairs but they'll kindly ask you to leave. Your 300GBP per year job-loss insurance will pay your loan for 6 months.
You will not find another job with any other carrier because you are on the record.

Imagining that only will put you under alot of pressure, certainly during the first years. And such pressure does not belong to be in a cockpit.

Nichibei Aviation

22nd Feb 2008, 15:09

I redid the cals in Excel and got this.

Total loan=60 000 +26904 =86904GBP= 117320.4EUR at today's forex rates. This is best case scenario with fixed rate if the bank approves it.
Add 300GBP loan costs per year and we're gonna be pretty close to 125000 total costs without investment.
Pretty close to the approximation we got from 8 x 7.25% seen that you won't be paying a penny for the first 2 years.

the principle goes down each month, so the figure the interest is applied to drops. The result is that each subsequent payment contains more principle and less interest. It's called amortization.

Now really :ok:
You see now that the difference is very small because there are no repayments until the first salary is received.

May I also remind you that this is best case scenario for UK people and considering 1GBP=1.35EUR which is a rather optimistic exchange rate.
Non-UK people may need to pay taxes on the 20 000€ per year loan repayment unless Portugal has a UK-like clause which I doubt.

What I wonder about section 250 is how it applies into reality.
As the employer's AOC is Portuguese I do not see how the hell pilots can get a direct UK contract with Netjets.
Hell, if that were true, all contracts would be in Monaco and all pilots would be residing there.

redsnail

22nd Feb 2008, 15:20

N.A.

Your scenario re guttsing a Hawker I find a bit entertaining. If you screw up in any company it is difficult to get another job. Just ask around. Whether it be with easyJet, Ryanair, Flybe or Netjets Europe and I do know of a few cases where this has happened.

You are completely incorrect about the contracts. You don't know the details so kindly desist from posting about them.

I too feel the cost of integrated flight training is horrendous. CTC charge a remarkably similar amount and it's not integrated. Go give them a serve too.

Adios

22nd Feb 2008, 21:31

I put in a call to HSBC in Oxford today and the NetJets cadet loan repayments are £1,115 per month for six years at the current 7.25%. The first repayment is due 3 months after finishing the fATPL at OAT, so the interest that accrues during the training and the deferral is included in the repayment scheme. Having the facts should make the maths a bit simpler.

hollingworthp

22nd Feb 2008, 21:52

Whoa - that's crazy talk, facts are for losers, all the cool kids make wild postings on half truths overheard by some bloke down the pub they once met - that is the best way ;)

andytiny

24th Feb 2008, 18:21

My dates are the 11th and 12th....anyone else on that date? See you all there.

Andy

CrazyBlonde

1st Mar 2008, 14:06

Hey!!
I just saw your post.. I also got through to stage 2.
My dates are the 12 and 13.. so ill see ya there.. Would be cool to have a chat.. befor the whole thing starts..
Have a nice day,
T

smithey

1st Mar 2008, 15:51

My dates are also the 12th and 13th. I am planning on arriving at Oxford on the 11th and stay there as I live too far away. Have you managed to sort accommodation out? How is your preparation going?!

Is anyone else on these dates?

Good luck to everyone!

Andrew

CrazyBlonde

1st Mar 2008, 17:00

Hey Andrew!!
Sounds Great. Umm.. nope I am also staying on campus for that one night, no i will call them on moday and book a room on site. What about you?? How is your preparation going?? Im already sooo nervous...

Cool to be in contact, keep it up.

T

smithey

2nd Mar 2008, 16:50

I've got the cheapest room on site, just got to buy train tickets and find out how to get to the airport from Oxford. Shouldn't be to bad, bus or a taxi!

I'm reading all I can about the aviation world and NetJets, get up to scratch with maths and physics which shouldn't be too bad as I'm currently doing an aerospace engineering degree! But yes I am getting nervous but that is only natural!

Should get back to reading now!
Anyone else who has the assessment on the 12th and 13th, would be great to hear from you!

Andrew

Dark Side

7th Mar 2008, 19:41

Hello Charlotte,

I am there on the 10th and 11th too!!!

See you there,

Dark Side of the force

balhambob

25th Mar 2008, 21:49

Just been reading all the posts regarding the costs of the NetJets scheme. I'm completely impartial - I went for Netjets last summer didnt get it and am now with a different FTO scheme tagged by a major UK airline.

Is the NetJets scheme a bad one? Ha - of course not! Its a first job with a good salary on a Jet????? I fail to see what is bad about that?

What people are forgetting is that the alternative is to go Self Sponsored (you will pay the same cost as if you were on the NetJets scheme). You will then have to find a job at the end. If you are a very good candidate (and have some luck) you may end up getting a better job/salary than NetJets can offer but the majority will prob find themselves taking a much lower salary or indeed paying more training costs to join the likes or Ryanair.

The only negative thing I would like to point out about the scheme is the accomodation issue. I understand it is compulsory to stay in OAT accomodation as it promotes "bonding".
The halls are around £150 pw and make my university Halls of Residence (£50pw) look like the Ritz! I think its unfair you are forced to do this - someone is clearly smiling about this setup but its not the cadets.

Adios

26th Mar 2008, 00:06

OAA has rooms for £115 per week. Cadets are only required to use them in ground school and are free to live off site during the IR and MCC/JOC. Off site rooms seem to be about £75-£85 per week plus bills, internet (a necessity for online question banks in ground school) and transport cost. I figure you'll be at £100 per week off site, but you can save some on food prep in your own kitchen. Having to eat in the OAA canteen for six months is the worse part, not the cost of the rooms!

Nichibei Aviation

26th Mar 2008, 04:02

Balhambob,

I don't agree with you. Yes, it is marvelous compared to the OAA self sponsoring integrated that doesn't offer you a job for 60K, but one can't say that the latter has the best value of the market.

You can very well go modular self sponsored, spend a total of less than 30K (which is not much more than the 15K you need for the costs and expenses such as accommodation at OAA and other expenses associated with the scheme) while working on the side to pay for it (which is not possible in integrated) start at a small air taxi operator or airline 1 year after training and move to NJE 2 years later, starting at the full NJE F/O salary while your mates of OAA will be writing down 1600GBP per month to the bank for another 3 years...

Another disadvantage is the fact that you are bonded. They can use you as a slave if they want, and you will not have much to say about it.

I don't say that OAA is bad or the scheme is bad, I have no personal interest as many pretend (which is funny) etc...
There are just better solutions in this world and such schemes should be looked at from a certain distance.

Adios

26th Mar 2008, 18:48

Yep, you can save some quid by going modular. You could even do your PPL and hour building here: http://www.ncb-aviation.com/

Click the link if you wonder why the endless M versus I debate keeps creeping into threads where the employer has chosen an integrated course for their cadets.

Nichibei Aviation

26th Mar 2008, 22:53

You got it all Adios...except that we're not JAA and that we won't start PPL/CPL training until 2009.

Yes, it is now possible to get a JAA CPL for 20K GBP: http://www.gsaviation.it/scuola.php

So much for the "Nichibei is biased" theory...

I'm sure some OAA/NJE candidates are having second thoughts now after spending huge amounts on transportation, accommodation and "exam participation fees" for the selections...

the employer has chosen an integrated course for their cadets.

I strongly doubt that it has anything to do with "quality". I think that there's some kind of financial arrangement. OAA has enough spare money to spend into marketing, and such a scheme does serve them as a good advertising tool.

NJE doesn't need OAA, it's rather the opposite.

Adios

26th Mar 2008, 23:27

Nichibei,

The PPL is the first step in JAA modular training, but it does not need to be a JAA PPL, merely ICAO. Same for the hours building. Forgive me if I was not aware that NCB doesn't yet offer PPLs. I assume you do offer hour building already though.

I never stated NJE need OAA or vice versa, just that they chose them. If you think NJE doesn't focus on quality, you are very sadly mistaken. Berkshire Hathaway and Warren Buffet don't do low quality anything. They spend a lot of money on quality and they charge a hefty premium for their service.

The fact they attract customers willing to pay for quality might explain why they never considered the lowest cost modular options for their cadet programme, as their cadets could end up being the exact opposite of their target customers.

Nichibei Aviation

27th Mar 2008, 00:30

I never stated NJE need OAA or vice versa, just that they chose them. If you think NJE doesn't focus on quality, you are very sadly mistaken.

NJE does focus on quality. That doesn't mean that they need any OAA cadets... NJE have enough applications from 1500+ hours pilots with jet experience to fill all their positions.
So I don't see why NJE should be interested in OAA 200 hours cadets unless they pulled a good deal (in money and conditions) from OAA.

If OAA does advertise that NJE went for their quality, that doesn't mean that it's true.

Every student pays 60K.
The actual costs can't be higher than 15K since actual flight time is only 150 hours (at £60 on a SEP) and ground lesson costs are spread by teaching huge groups.
That leaves them with 45K to play with (plus the money they earn on the accommodation)

Pay NJE 35K in exchange for hiring each student and a sentence saying "we selected OAA because of their quality".

That still leaves 10K of profit to OAA.
Why OAA was selected? Because the margins at a modular school are too low to offer such deals to any airline.

To an airline this is pure profit so it should be seen as very welcome.

It's sad to see flight schools being reduced to marketing machines and making over 10-15 million pounds of yearly profits (which is more than some airlines with fleets counting 50 jets are making) and such schools being recommended by internet communities.

It's time to wake up people!!

Adios

27th Mar 2008, 08:53

Nichibei,

So you are accusing OAA of paying NetJets £35K to hire each cadet? I think they could spend a quarter of such a budget on ads and fill every seat. Funny thing is, until their recent re-brand, I almost never saw an OAT advert, so one would think they didn't have a lot of empty seats. All of the recent ads I have seen focus on the new brand, so I suspect the motivation for this spending is probably to build awareness rather than purely to fill empty seats, though it will likely do both.

Maybe NetJets doesn't think there is much quality in that huge pile of CVs you say they have. Perhaps they have already mined the good ones and there is a reason the others are still in the pile. Perhaps they think they will do better by mentoring their own FOs from day one. Oh, but that would be a quality thing, not a profiteering scam, so it just can't be their real motivation.

Nichibei Aviation

27th Mar 2008, 21:00

Well, the problem with advertising pilot training is that it is very difficult to reach the customer.

You can't put an add on a newspaper (costs a few thousand bucks per day and the reactions way too small for the price because the portion of interested readers is limited), you can put an add on a weekly magazine, but not every wannabe reads them and even if the advertser brings forward its "superior quality", no advertiser would say that he's selling trash...
You can for instance put a very well designed ad on Pprune, it still doesn't echo the "quality" that OAA seems to use as keyword for their advertising.

OAA made a win=win=win scheme here.

Student buys a job, OAA earns its part while advertising how good they are and NJE earns an extra profit (I have put some rough figures of 35k but it could be less, I don't have an insight on the transaction) by taking these guys instead of the 1500+ houred pilots. What's the earnig at NJE? like 50 million euro per year after tax?
I guess they can use another 3 million without needing to work for it...

As I said win=win=win but there are harder and alot cheaper ways to get there. These harder ways do also make you feel like you worked for it while this scheme will make you feel like you just paid for it...

The only part that would be challenging would be the selections... which many schools use as marketing tool: "The fact that you can pay for it doesn't mean that you can actually achieve it". This defers the attention from the high prices to focus candidates on the selections. The thousands of threads about selections on this forum will serve as proof.
How can they determine in 2 or 3 selection sessions based on many things that have nothing to do with flying an aircraft, whether a candidate is good for the job? Absurd.

Many candidates who pass such selections and are half way in training (and in some exceptional cases graduated already) wouldn't be able to tell you whether they're looking at a B737 or A320 if showed a picture. Interest and motivation should be the first selecting criteria and not stupid personnality question papers.

My opinion I expressed over the last 2 paragraphs applies to all schools, whether it's modular or integrated.
Funny thing is that schools with lower earning margins won't hold selections...

Adios

28th Mar 2008, 08:26

Nichibei,

The goal of all FTOs, except maybe yours, is to make a profit. Your contention that OAA makes £35K in profit is ludicrous to start with. Your assertion that they would then give it away to another company as "advertising money" is even more ludicrous. OAA was recently purchased by venture capitalists. VCs don't give away the farm.

The only thing you have stated yet that makes any sense is that the programme is a win=win=win, yet you continue to assert that the cadets lose and OAA loses (by giving away) £35K. If OAA had that much margin to sacrifice, they could simply reduce the price and fill every seat they needed to. They could simply keep the price the same each year as their competitors raise them.

Are any other readers getting the feeling Nichibei is losing the plot?

woskam

28th Mar 2008, 14:47

I've been watching this thread develop with amusement and bewilderment!

Nichibei, I'm sorry but I've got to agree with Adios - you're losing the plot! I really don't understand what your point is! You appear to have a massive axe to grind against NJE and OAA and you're just going round in circles and I don't understand it. What is so different about the OAA/NJE arrangement compared with the OAA/Flybe, FTE/Cityflier arrangements? Or do you hate any kind of sponsorship/part-sponsorship schemes? Perhaps you weren't fortunate enough to get accepted onto such a scheme, I don't know.

You seem to imply that OAA/NJE have a crap selection process and that interest and motivation should be the first thing they look for. Have you been to their selection?! As someone who has attended OAA/NJE selection I can tell you that they certainly do look for that! I had the pleasure of being interviewed by two assessors for the best part of an hour, where they asked me over and over again why I wanted to be a pilot, what I'd done so far in order to achieve that goal etc. I even got asked specifics such as "what is the range of a Gulfstream V?" so they can instantly pick out those who are genuinely interested in the industry and those who turn up for the fun of it.

The other route your anger seems to be taking is towards the fact that OAA make a profit. Of course they do, they're a business! Their sole aim is to make money, how they do that is secondary. Yes they advertise, as do 99% of other FTOs, and why wouldn't they?! You said that schools with lower margins don't hold selections - ever think why? They can't afford to turn people away because chances are they don't get many applicants - probably as a result of not advertising, funnily enough - and therefore will more than likely take anybody willing to pay. OAA find themselves in the fortunate position where demand for their product far outweighs supply so they have the choice in who they accept. It's all quite simple really isn't it?

Nichibei Aviation

28th Mar 2008, 21:47

Adios, I'm telling you the sad reality of what's happening behind the scenes and you may find it very unrational but unfortunately it's the reality as it is.

Any school is the same and is working for profit, I agree.

I've been ripped off by a modular FTO myself spending over 10000 EUR for my PPL instead of the promised 7000 EUR. Nichibei people have found me complaining about this on a website and hired me after some exchanges. 2 other guys have been hired in similar circumstances.

You said that schools with lower margins don't hold selections - ever think why? They can't afford to turn people away because chances are they don't get many applicants

This is a common misinterpretation. Cheap flight schools just don't need to defer the candidate's attention towards the selections because of high prices. Expensive FTO's instead have to advertise "quality" to justify their higher pricing for the exact same training.
I can tell you that anyone who can drive a car can fly a plane, no matter the quality of the FTO and that makes any such selection unjustified.
It's therefore absolutely normal that expensive FTO's have to make it look like being a pilot is an elite job, that's their selling point. Many people buy into this form of marketing and it results that more people actually enroll into such expensive programs before even considering other possibilities.

I had the pleasure of being interviewed by two assessors for the best part of an hour, where they asked me over and over again why I wanted to be a pilot, what I'd done so far in order to achieve that goal etc. I even got asked specifics such as "what is the range of a Gulfstream V?"

"Why do you want to become a pilot?" is a standard question that expensive schools use as part of their marketing but also a question that integrated schools no matter if they hold selections or not, have to ask to warn their students that there's no way back. That would also be an obvious question if you have a job attached to your training.

An interview should be more of the kind of questions like: "how are you going to fund your training? (reflects motivation) At what airline do you wish to work?" (shows how much energy a candidate has put into researching his possibilities), showing a picture and asking for the name of the type, etc..." That should be enough to rule out the macho's and Barbie's.

There's no point asking for the range of a Gulfstream V, that one got me laughing. I'll definitely suggest it to my co-workers. That is way too specific for a wannabe to know and has nothing to do with motivation, interest or flying skills... shows you very well that these selections are not made to test you, rather to glue you to the offer.

Now let's get back to the scheme.
You can fly a SEP (in the C-172/PA-28 class) for 50 pounds and a MEP for 100 GBP (200GBP in UK) an hour anywhere in USA, also at OAA's airfield.
Fly 150 hours at 50GBP and it costs you 7500 GBP.
Fly 15 hours on MEP at 200GBP for 3000GBP.
Add 200 hours flight instruction and briefings at 20 pounds per hour (I doubt instructors are paid that much) for a total of 4000GBP.

7500GBP+3000GBP+4000GBP=14500GBP.

Ground course for 500GBP per student, (20 students per class =10000GBP)

Total cost 15000GBP.

Almost all other costs are covered by the students.

The other 45K are pure profit for such schools...

So I'm the one loosing the plot hun? :ok:

Edit: sorry, forgot to factor VAT. If the program costs 61K VAT incl. that makes it 50K Vat less.

Profit would be 35K per student... profit margin of 70%...not bad at all.
Add profit on accommodation and yes, you deduce that these organisations are taking alot of money from you.

I say again, wake up people!!

Adios

29th Mar 2008, 11:47

Yes Nichibei, you are losing the plot. I would appreciate if you are going to address me by name at the start of a post that you only include quotes from my posts in the reply. Both of the quotes above are from Woksam's post.

In his defense, if he attended OAA's NetJets selection process, then the range of a G-V is relevant to reveal how much research he has done into NetJets. Since this is a NetJets/OAA thread, I suspect that is the context of his reply. It would not surprise me if some of the NetJets applicants actually want to fly wide bodied airliners and plan to leave NetJets at the first opportunity. It is important to try to flush these motives out. I saw one person posting on OAA's NetJets forum who uses a photo of a 747 as his avatar. That's a brilliant way to convince them you want to fly Hawkers or Gulf Streams!

You can toss up all the numbers you wish, but you don't know what OAA's overhead costs are or what their profit margin is. One thing I can guarantee you though is that if any company was getting a 70% profit margin, as you state OAA does, they would have a lot more competitors. Your rants show little understanding of market forces.

The FTO's you write of with low per hour prices don't even compare to OAA. Consider some of their instructors have been with them for 20 years, while you work for a startup. I once saw an advert from OAA for ME Instrument instructors and the starting salary was £40K plus productivity incentives. Imagine what their long tenure FI's must make. Frankly, I'd rather be taught my IR by a guy with 10-20 years FI experience than a newby who has just upgraded to MEII, even if it costs a lot more. Consider that Oxford has the second highest cost of living outside London and OAA's staff has to be paid more to live in that economy. There are probably at least ten more factors that raise their cost base.

You can argue that you don't want to float OAA's overhead if you think you can get comparable training elsewhere for less. I don't take exception to that argument, but your claim that they make £35,000 profit per student on a course price of £63,000 is ludicrous. This is why I say that you are losing the plot.

It is extremely difficult for a service industry to earn more than 10% profit. OAA may earn more than that, but I doubt that they even approach 20% much less the 70% that you claim.

One thing for sure, if I approached a group of venture capitalists with a sound business plan showing a reasonable chance of earning a 50% to 70% profit margin, I could get as much money as I cared to ask them for to start up such an operation.

Continuing to make such obviously ludicrous claims as you do, proves one thing. It is much better that you are an FI than a manager of a business of any kind. I am sorry that you got ripped off, but I think you are letting that experience cloud your thinking. If you are a low hour pilot aiming to be an FO, had you completed any FTO's integrated course, you'd probably be an FO at least on turboprops by now instead of an hour building instructor. Instructing is an honourable profession and I do hope you at least enjoy it and pour your heart into it rather than just passing the time while salivating for an airline job. Something tells me you are probably a good and ethical instructor. It is your business acumen that I question, not your motives or ethics.

Nichibei Aviation

29th Mar 2008, 19:22

Adios,

I addressed the first 3 paragraphs to you, the rest is irrelevant.
Don't bother I'm no FI, I'm too busy convincing Asian airlines to select us for training.

I have a good view over costs in USA and I know very well what it costs to operate an FTO. Why should OAA be that different?
Full time instructors paid 40K a year working full time. I shall say it's slightly above the average pay but not tremendously much for a MEI.

Instructor costs are the smallest part of the game.
Hell, we could even start counting every kWh the FNPTII's are using...

80% of the costs of a flight school is related to the operation of the aircraft.

In his defense, if he attended OAA's NetJets selection process, then the range of a G-V is relevant to reveal how much research he has done into NetJets.

Important message to all OAA/NJE wannabe's: learn by heart ranges of all aircraft operated by NJE. Additionally, if you can give the reg of at least 10 NJE aircraft, an employment is guarranteed if you can pay the 60+K :ok:

It would not surprise me if some of the NetJets applicants actually want to fly wide bodied airliners and plan to leave NetJets at the first opportunity

Those who have a loan are bonded. Those who don't, could be bonded if NJE wants it to be so because they're still paying for the TR.

Consider some of their instructors have been with them for 20 years, while you work for a startup.

Our instructors are working on the airfield since their youth, longer than 40 years for some.
Astronaut Mike Foreman who was onboard the Space Shuttle Endeavour last week was taught flying by one of our instructors so I don't see your point there...:cool:

Adios

29th Mar 2008, 21:48

Nichibei,

I am starting to see the light. Based on your last post, it seems that your role at Nichibei Aviation is something along the lines of Business Development or Student Placement, trying to get Asian airlines either to hire your graduates or even to engage in cadet programmes with your company. Having worked for an Asian manufacturing firm before, I am very familiar with the concept of "Guanxi." Thankfully, my role there didn't require me to participate in the shady activities. Though Guanxi doesn't always take the form of bribes and kickbacks, the fact that you work for a Japanese company and are trying to develop relationships with Asian airlines sheds a lot of light on why you think OAA is giving a £35K per cadet "advertising" fee to NetJets.

If you really think this is happening, you can report it to the UK Trading Standards Office and get OAA and NetJets shutdown and prosecuted, because it is illegal in the UK. Otherwise, you can keep spouting rubbish and hold on to your fantasy, but your credibility is fading faster than it takes a G500 to go 5,800 NM.

Nichibei Aviation

30th Mar 2008, 00:57

Adios, you're getting closer but you are still far.

We're looking to develop a training partnership with an Asian airline and my job is to discuss the possibilities with such airlines. The deal is about selecting and training pilots, very similarily to the NJE scheme, but at the airline's expense in exchange for a student bond.

A bit like China Eastern in Australia, I guess.

Many countries are experiencing pilot shortages in Asia.

If you really think this is happening, you can report it to the UK Trading Standards Office and get OAA and NetJets shutdown and prosecuted, because it is illegal in the UK.

There are ways to do this legally. But the time and emotions you put into convincing that every student should go for training programs paying 4 times the actual cost makes me think that you have personal interest involved in this discussion and that any attempt to explain will make you even more emotional.

I enjoyed this discussion in the beginning but now you're becoming too personal, so I quit, you won.

What is interesting about you is that you would not advertise your identity nor your role in aviation ever since you suscribed. Over half of your posts seem to be related to CTC or OAA giving information that is not available at hand and you never talk about personal experiences, so you should be someone on the inside or a customer of one of these organisations.

One of your posts on the other NJE/OAA thread:

Oat doesn't force anybody to stay in their halls. NetJets require it, so if you want to complain about it, lay it at their doorstep if you think biting the hand that feeds you on a public forum is wise. More to the point though, VulcanFlyer says he is training elsewhere, so he has nothing to lose complaining about the NetJets programme. He also has nothing to gain by venting his spleen here even if his arguments prevail and Oat changes their pricing, so perhaps he should not be so surprised someone thinks he's bitter towards Oat for doing so. If he would take out a few full page adverts in international magazines and write up all of his complaints about Oat pricing, he might learn that recruiting cadets has an advertsing cost that never crossed his mind might need be recovered.

The bottom line is nobody forces anyone to go there, so if you don't like it, don't apply, if you applied and don't like it, withdraw so there's less competition for those who really want it.

It's a free country, so complain all you want. NetJets are probably better off without the more cynical types anyway, so men like VulcanFlyer could actually be doing them a favour by running off those who are easily dissuaded by less than sound arguments against the programme.

You don't seem to be defending NJE but OAA here, so I rule out NJE.
Are you working for OAA or HSBC?

Adios

30th Mar 2008, 14:53

If your job is negotiating with airlines for their training business, it doesn’t seem like a sound strategy to publicly slag off other FTOs and airlines by accusing them of engaging in unethical and perhaps even illegal kickbacks in exchange for jobs. I doubt that this is how the industry works, other than maybe in the Far East. If you can offer proof of your claim instead if innuendo, you'll win me over.

If this is the secret behind OAA's success, I should think they would have been caught by now. On the other hand, it is completely illogical that an airline would do this, much less one run by one of the most ethical investors in the world. Imagine what a morale buster it would be if word ever got out this was really happening. It could ruin NetJets overnight. It is apparent that this is a fruitless discussion, as you don't respond to logic and reason, so I am done.

Nichibei Aviation

31st Mar 2008, 01:25

Not accusing anyone, just telling what is strange about this scheme.
Why would NJE need OAA cadets when they receive hundreds of applications from experienced airline f/O's and captains?

What about NJE's reputation?
What are the customers going to think about it when they realise a 250 hour F/O with no experience is going to fly their 6000 euro flight?
In business aviation it does occur that the customer asks pilot's experience prior to flight.

Netjets USA wouldn't let you touch the controls before 2500TT, what's so different about flying in Europe? What makes a 200 hour F/O too dangerous to consider in USA but safe in Europe?
Is it the training at OAA that makes any cadet worth a 2500 houred pilot?

I think that there's something else than OAA's reputation that has convinced Netjets to jump on the scheme.

Just for the record:
I have nothing against OAA. I am against any flight schools that earn huge amounts of money by ripping off their students.
I am not against integrated schools. I am against integrated schools that teach flying in the US and charge students the European price.
Finally, I am not against people giving future students a good advise. I am against people who encourage uninformed students to enroll into such schools and programs.

Before starting training, I have visited many schools myself including some integrated schools like KLS. Me and a friend of mine started laughing when they told us the price tag of their program. 120K euro.
yeah right. KLS are training at Sabena's base in Arizona and Sabena Flight Academy only charges 77K for the exact same training at the exact same airfield using the exact same aircraft. The presentator couldn't answer when I asked why there was such a price difference between KLS and SFA.

I am happy that I had come to realise what flight schools really were about before I started training. I never dreamed of actually working for one...

Nichibei Aviation

31st Mar 2008, 06:02

So Adios, why have you been so careful not to give away any hint or clue about what you are doing in aviation over your past hundreds of posts on this forum? What keeps you from telling who you are?

What is your function in aviation?

Why do you defend OAA day and night?

Where do you get insider information from OAA?

Why are you so interested in OAA?

Adios

31st Mar 2008, 23:10

Nichibei,

I thought I was done, but I suppose those following this thread deserve to know my interest in OAA and NetJets. For them, I will wade into the pit one last time.

I would like one of my offspring to train there or at CTC after he finishes university. I am retired from professional flying and no longer able to hold a Class 1, but that doesn't prevent me from encouraging wannabes to pursue their dream. Do I know a lot about OAA and favour them? Yes. Until recently, there’s been little need to defend them. I don't mind you questioning my motives, but most of what I post is readily available on OAA’s web site, and some of what I know comes from emailing and speaking to their staff and visiting their facilities.

Slagging on integrated schools (and bad modular ones) is common, but it is usually the wannabes and students that do it. This is the first time I have seen one repeatedly bad-mouthed by another FTO. You have gone a bit beyond mere bad mouthing though, and on to libel. I doubt that you've convinced many to wave off and both OAA and NetJets are probably better off without anyone who can't see the holes in your theory.

There is no doubt that OAA is profitable, it’s been sold twice in the last decade and neither was what you’d call a fire sale. To jump from the conclusion of profitability, to OAA enticing an airline into a cadet programme with a bribe or kickback in the form of a share of the windfall is not just a leap of faith, it is a huge, libelous leap of bad faith. I find it strange that the accusation hasn’t been made regarding OAA’s other cadet programmes. Somehow NetJets is seen as higher and mightier than Thomas Cook, XL and FlyBe, those bottom feeders who can hide lousy newbies behind an armoured door. In fact, FlyBe is so low that they had to kick back the kickback! Never mind that BA used to sponsor their cadets at OAA and there are rumours that they are soon to start a new cadet scheme, though none of the rumour mongers say where. The likes of these airlines don’t have to worry so much about poor quality, low hour pilots. But what would force almighty NetJets, who have a drawer full of CVs into establishing a cadet scheme? Oh it must be something sinister like a bribe!

God save us from twisted logic and bitter envy!

Nichibei Aviation

1st Apr 2008, 01:36

Ok that clears some things up.

Still, I'm expressing my opinion as a trainee as I've repeatedly said and my comments here do not represent the opinion of the organisation I work for.

It's easy to say: "I don't agree with you, so your employer sucks" but that doesn't make any sense.

Most of my aguments here are funded. I know what it costs to operate an aircraft and to hire instrcutors and that cost isn't much different at OAA or CTC, etc... as anyone would agree. I've shown in a previous example what it really takes to train a student from 0 to fATPL. Ok, you can add human resource costs, etc... but the margins are still way too big.

Though your grandsons may be able to afford paying cash for such schemes as their grandfather and retired commercial pilot would be in a position to sponsor them, many students visiting this forum are not as fortunate. Many have to offer their parent's sole belongings as security for the huge loans...
Students are taking high risks while schools are earning great profits.

If these schools would give them at least 350 hours or 400 hours of flying for that price I would agree and would have nothing to say.

Now let me tell you what is going to happen over the next 5 years.

Low cost flight schools are going to start competing against glamour expensive flight schools. Expensive flight schools will find themselves forced to reduce their rates to compete.
Such tendency is already seen in Belgium. Sabena Flight academy was selling integrated fATPL for 87000 EUR till 2007. 5 flight schools have started competing extensively against SFA by offering lower pricing.
As a result SFA started focusing on training Indian pilots and lowered their JAA fATPL price down to 77000EUR.

And guess what? SFA is selling the almost same program as the 77 000EUR JAA fAtpl to Kingfisher cadets at 39000 USD or about 26 000EUR...

Proof?
There http://www.eznetsolution.com/sabena/course%20price%20&%20loan%20assistance.htm

and www.sfa.be (http://www.sfa.be)

I hope that de-twisted your logic. :ok:

sam34

14th Apr 2008, 22:38

HELLO everyone,

I am looking for students who are doing the training in Phoenix (Falcon Airfield) for some informations I need.
I will contact you by pm.

Thank you very much :)

hollingworthp

15th Apr 2008, 02:11

You can PM me if you like. However, the NJE cadets are at Goodyear so I don't know if you are looking for us or someone else?

Phil.

hollingworthp

15th Apr 2008, 18:42

NA's grasp on banking and finances has been clearly demonstrated to be hilarious - I loved the compound interest section, nearly made me fall off my chair!

clanger32

16th Apr 2008, 04:57

It's not so much the compound interest thing that got me, but more the way that, apparently, when you take a loan with a bank, they take back every penny piece you earn until it's repayed, causing you to live in a cardboard box. I think NA must have been thinking of a loan shark when he came up with the figures...explains the interest figures and the repay every penny.....

Also love the "fact" that to provide an ATPL training course only costs £15000.....Despite a PPL costing what? 5-6 thousand on it's own?

BRS_flyer

17th Apr 2008, 21:10

Anyone else going to the stage 2 assesments on 22nd/23rd of May??

coolmadmat

19th Apr 2008, 19:05

Hello folks...
yesterday I've got the first invitation-email of NetJets Europe for Phase II of the selection process.

How long does it take to receive the 2nd one, with the exact appointment date?
They say that the assessmentcenter period will start on the 20th of May.
Rightnow I'll have on 20-21st May another Assessment at AirBerlin in Germany, is it possible to reschedule at NetJets?

Plz.. dont worry about my English.. I'm sorry.. but it's not my mother's tongue... ;)

I have some words for Nichbei... ;)

How can they determine in 2 or 3 selection sessions based on many things that have nothing to do with flying an aircraft, whether a candidate is good for the job? Absurd.Indeed it is not absurd.
I got a bachelor degree in Media Computer Sciences and I worked a lot on usability testing of software. Also I know a lot of deductive testing methods. So these methods used in Assessmentcenters, are very good to find out which skills, especially cognitive skills an applier has.
The mistake rate is only about 2-3% for one test.
Most of the candidates will not be kicked out if they fail only in one of these tests, or only if there is a link through all the other tests, which are made, showing a "misbehavior" in a certain case.

The only thing Assessmentcentertests can be criticized for, is for their failure-probability in prediction of a certain character. The rate of wrong prediction is here about 16%.

But enterprises are even better off with that than having just a normal simple job interview. Also these tests can predict if you have the abilities for being a pilot, or not, or at least they can predict how successful you will be during a training to become a pilot.

Many candidates who pass such selections and are half way in training (and in some exceptional cases graduated already) wouldn't be able to tell you whether they're looking at a B737 or A320 if showed a picture. Interest and motivation should be the first selecting criteria and not stupid personnality question papers.Indeed interests and motivation is an important aspect, but not the only one. And remember it is an selection process of an enterprise.... and the have the right to define the requirements of what they think is important to fullfill the company's needs for a certain job.

Alpha Foxtrot

19th Apr 2008, 20:12

I'm in on the 28th/29th May.

Regards,

AF

nich-av

20th Apr 2008, 00:23

Also love the "fact" that to provide an ATPL training course only costs £15000.....Despite a PPL costing what? 5-6 thousand on it's own?

A PPL in the UK would cost 5-6K, alright, but what is the difference with what we're discussing here:

1. This program is flown in the US
2. We're discussing nett costs for the FTO, not what the student actually pays.

I've given you a pretty good idea with 15K and I stand by that comment.

I've taken a steady value of outstanding balance because the students won't pay anything back until 2-3 years after start. That gives a pretty good idea. OAA says by itself that the student would repay 20K euro for 6 years, that equals 120Keuro, doesn't it?
Now, if the GBP drops further against the euro, this could become interesting. Those who started last year have already earned themselves a 15% discount.

I would certainly recommend the program if it weren't for the high price tag and additional personal investment.

I'm not stopping anyone, I'm just giving these people looking at a huge investment, the benefit of the doubt.

Adios

20th Apr 2008, 14:28

Nichibei,

You're giving them two things. Your opinions about training costs, which is fair enough. You're also giving statements that you claim as fact that contradict the information published on the forum and the NetJets FAQ on OAA's web site.

If you will get the facts right it would go a long way towards earning the respect of other members.

nich-av

20th Apr 2008, 15:08

I'm not seeking popularity Adios, I'm seeking fairness and common sense.
I guess I'm popular enough already with people even trying to crack the password of my Pprune account...;)

Adios, I undoubtly gave some strange demonstrations with expanded figures and I'm sure that there are dozens of candidate guys and gals who took the opportunity to calculate what they would really be spending, just to prove me wrong even if they wouldn't publish that here.

Would they have done that if we would all have been saying something in the lines of "great program with job guarrantee"? I doubt it.

I'd rather make myself ridiculous on a few pages of this forum than having all these people realise one day that they have been naïve when signing the contract.
I wouldn't be very happy to realise that I would be stuck with a nett salary of 2500€ per month for 5 to 6 years + per diems (but you'll need them) while being bonded for that period without the opportunity to upgrade and after injecting a huge investement in other costs not covered by the price...

Just to prove you that the cost of integrated doesn't make any sense,
OAA sells the modular for less than 40K (around 35K)... :rolleyes:

I would definitely recommend the latter.

Adios

20th Apr 2008, 15:24

Fair enough, but don't whinge that everyone thinks you're biased when people point out the flaws.

OAA Modular pricing does not include the first 150 hours of training.

Resident ground school is £4400 plus 14X£63 for exam fees. Add in meals and food and it's probably £4-5K more.

Waypoint is £27,000 plus 2x£1750 for the check rides.

Add in meals and accommodation, M1 visa fees and return flights to Phoenix and you are upwards of £45K and will probably have spent £10K to £15K more for the PPL and 150 hours and living expenses depending on where you did it.

Is it less expensive than Integrated? Yes. Does OAA hide that fact? No. Do they hold a gun to people's heads and make them go Integrated? No. Some people don't want the hassles of managing the whole process themselves, they just want to book a package and get it all done quickly as possible and many are willing to pay more for it.

I suspect if an FTO tries to get certification to offer Integrated training they will soon discover the overhead of earning and maintaining that approval will drive their costs up a lot. I am sort of using Nichibei logic here, but if Modular and Integrated could be delivered for the same cost to the FTO, there would probably be a lot more Integrated schools.

nich-av

20th Apr 2008, 17:57

Fair enough, but don't whinge that everyone thinks you're biased when people point out the flaws.

I don't bother as far as its directed to me and not my employer.

I'm sorry, I was told the 35K were for 0 to fATPL and I've just checked that the first 150 hours are indeed not included which makes it excessively expensive.

I understand now that the modular is
27K+4.4K+ PPL&150 15K = 46.4K
and integrated = 62K

All other expenses apply almost equally to both programs.

A 15K difference still makes it quite huge. JAA certification costs some money alright but that is not the reason why not every FTO is modular. Modular gives more flexibility (schedule, money & work) to students and that is the selling point for most modular schools.

Adios

21st Apr 2008, 07:51

Flexibility is indeed a primary motivation for Modular students, along with the ability to work a bit here and there and cost saving. Flexibility is also the bane for an FTO I suspect, as the administration and scheduling/resource planning is more difficult when selling one module at a time.

The real reason there are few Integrated schools probably lies in the fact that the startup costs are prohibitive and therein lies part of the reason they are more expensive.

For example, in an earlier post, you listed £500 as the price (not cost) for ground school then showed 20 students X £500=10,000.

Ground school takes six months, so you could only pay your instructors £20K per year if you were willing to eat the cost of facilities, NI contributions, insurance, curriculum development, ATPL manuals, electricity, computer systems, etc.

None of this is here nor there to the wannabe. They have choices and can go modular for all the reasons I listed in paragraph 1. Given that the purpose of an FTO is to make money, if Integrated schools were making as much as you say and the cost of opening one were as low as you say, there would be more of them, as there is no shortage of greedy bastards in this world. I just don't think things are as simple as Nichibei logic would have us all believe.

nich-av

21st Apr 2008, 12:44

Ground school takes six months, so you could only pay your instructors £20K per year if you were willing to eat the cost of facilities, NI contributions, insurance, curriculum development, ATPL manuals, electricity, computer systems, etc.

Unless you have the same instructor teach a given subject to several different classes.
If an instructor works 40 hours/week, on a single year he'll teach 2000 hours. A ground course lasts 600 hours so he can teach 3 classes, take annual leave and earn more than 30K gross... which is way more than an average uni professor makes on a year.
If there is a new class every 1-2 months, it is perfectly possible.

When you divide the expenses by 20 students, every portion becomes very small. We could use 1000GBP iso 500GBP per student to put more margin into it.

Are you surprised that profit margins are so high?

I don't want to put our rates on here but I'll put the rates of a reasonable flight school in Daytona, FL: http://www.airamericafc.com/renters.php
Note: PA-28 and C-172 have almost the same operating costs.
On these rates the given FL-based school is making profits, so expenses are even lower... why should Arizona be that different?

AdamLT

21st Apr 2008, 14:09

anyone at OAA on Friday 30th May?
If so, I shall see you there :)

4KBeta

21st Apr 2008, 14:13

which is way more than an average uni professor makes on a year.

Just noticed you posted that, maybe they dont earn much from were you come from (says Tahiti in your location)

Lecturers here get well over 30K a year here, as do a lot of teachers

clanger32

21st Apr 2008, 16:13

Ok, despite being a bit vocal, I don't really want any more to do with this thread (save the amusement it provides). But I will try one last time to clarify at least one point.
The netjets scheme does NOT require the student to pay back €20000 per year.

How you pay for the course and - if a loan is required - pay it back is entirely the students choice. If you happen to have £65000 in small denomination used bank notes lining your mattress, then you can pay that way. If you need a big loan from HSBC or any other lender, you can pay that way. If you need a loan and can somehow afford to, you can pay it back over one year or eleven, it is entirely your choice. Neither Netjets, OAA or HSBC (well, the latter obviously do make some comments and have a say) dictate how much or over what period you pay back.

So, now we've got that cleared up and we're all clear that the student can determine how they pay and over what period they pay back, we get to the Ts & Cs of the NJE contract. BTW, I didn't get in, so I'm not defending it, just adding a dose of realism. The remuneration on offer from NJE to successful applicants to the cadet scheme is €56500. This should be considered as the salary for the scheme. It is the same as direct entrant F/Os are on.

The bonus (or one of) of the scheme is that of this €56500 salary, tax law enables NJE to pay €20000 of it back TO THE STUDENT AS PART OF THEIR NORMAL SALARY tax free, considered as a "reimbursement of training costs". This means that the cadets are better off than someone who enters NJE directly by the amount of taxation one would pay in ones country of residence on €20000 of earnings at the rate applicable to earnings of €56500 - In the UK, this amounts to a benefit of about £4-£4.5k per year.

Clearly, if you have a whacking great loan, then this needs to be serviced out of whatever you take home each month, but if you're slightly better off as a result of the tax loop, then this enables you to pay off the loan quicker (as you have a better take home than someone NOT on the scheme) than otherwise....IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO.

The amount you repay to the bank each month remains your choice.
NA...you appear to have got this point well and truly confused to the point where you think the cadet pays back the €20000 per year to the bank every year for six years...the truth is that you pay back whatever you've agreed to the bank to service your loan for however long you've agreed that loan over....NJE pay YOU the €20000 tax free for about six years, you then move to your whole salary being PAYE. If you have the money to pay for the course up front, my understanding is that you still get the €20000 and are substantially better off.
I hope this clears this point up once and for all....if not, I'm not going to try again....

nich-av

21st Apr 2008, 19:32

Clanger, I think that the vast majority will take up a loan.

1.NJE can't give you 20K tax free if you don't have a loan running on your training, that is purely illegal or in the right terms: fraud. They can only give you a tax free salary (even 100% depending on the country) during the same fiscal year as the training is/was paid for.

2.The amount of yearly repayments can not be lower than 20K, for the same reason as 1. though you can decide to repay more than 20K each year, which would be in your disadvantage.

Adios

21st Apr 2008, 21:41

Nichibei,

I think that you are wrong on both counts.

First, I think the relevant section of tax code is ITEPA section 250 and 251. This is the UK Income Tax Earnings and Pensions Act of 2003. It is a cryptic document, as Parliament's Bills tend to be.

I actually found that document by finding this one first, which refers to ITEPA section 250 and 251: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM01235.htm

Note: This document is a bulletin clarifying what will and will not pass the tax inspector's sniff test based on precedent's set by a legal case.

The document makes four points, "...there will be some cases where the link between the employment and the pre-commencement training will be so strong that the reimbursement will qualify for exemption under Section 250. For example, if an individual has accepted an employment offer from a new employer, to start work in the reasonably near future, and the individual then pays for training relevant to the job, exemption will be due if the employer agrees to reimburse the costs after the employment has begun."

Nothing could be stronger than the fact that one can't fly for NetJets unless one has an fATPL. There is ample evidence in a few older threads on this forum and on OAAs forum that the cadets do get a rather lengthy contract before they start training. I suspect the fact that they get a few weeks leave at the end of the course before starting their Type Rating probably qualifies as "reasonably near future" in the eyes of Inland Revenue.

There is absolutely nothing in any of the documents above that ties the tax relief to a loan.

Just because you think it isn't right or that it is fraud, doesn't make it so. Lots of nations use tax incentives to promote investments that the government thinks will stimulate the economy or enhance the educational status of citizens to keep said nation competitive in the global marketplace. The UK doesn't have many such incentives, but this certainly appears to be one of the few.

hollingworthp

21st Apr 2008, 21:46

Adios,

And he wonders why people mock him? I have previously posted links to HMRC which are blissfully ignored in a quest for misinformation.

He is actually doing NJE a favour as he is effectively the first stage of the selection process. If you are taken in by his postings then you have no right to be in a cockpit making command decisions and probably should be phoning for the white jackets and rubber wall paper hotel room.

Adios

21st Apr 2008, 21:59

Hollingworthp,

That is a very subtle way of telling me I am wasting my time. It is a very good point though. Where would we be without the amusement and what would we do with our bags of salt otherwise?

stewa

21st Apr 2008, 22:07

Hi Adam,
I'm a cabin crew which would like to be a pilot working for the net jet. A am a 25 year old woman. You think will be hard for me to get a job there as a pilot?
I will appricciate your help.
Ewa

hollingworthp

22nd Apr 2008, 00:29

Ewa

I'll answer that as well if I may - I would say go for it. There is an ex-stewardess from Air France on my intake and I know of a Lufthansa guy and probably there are others too.

Regards

-------

PS - Adios - yes I think the implication was there ;) He can be a bit like a terrier at times and I would not be surprised by another amusing response shortly :ugh::ugh::ugh:. To be fair, on other threads he seems to post opinions and everyone is entitled to those, but the NJE scheme seems to attract a special kind of attention :p

nich-av

22nd Apr 2008, 02:27

1.Ok...it says under "exceptions": "there are some cases".

2.Not often is there a training worth over 60K... and these exemptions are generally only valid for the first fiscal year with an employer.
They are never transposable over different years unless a loan comes in.

The same with your home.
You pay your home cash, tax exemptions for the first year, nothing for the next years. You pay your home on a mortgage, exemptions on every fiscal year.

Pull me out the Portuguese equivalent of that law article and I'll believe you.:ok:

Remember, in the airline world you are paid and work under labour laws of the country where the actual management of the airline takes place, not where you live.
I would be very surprised to see an equivalent article.

hollingworthp

22nd Apr 2008, 03:30

How cool would it be if there was a UK management company with pilots operating under a UK based contract ... whoa .. hang on ... that's what there is .... its almost as though someone at NetJets knows what they are doing ... surely that cannot be the case ... cant it??? :=:=

No - I imagine that someone who clearly has no idea of the operating structure of a company is much more likely to be correct - isn't that right NA?

Adios

22nd Apr 2008, 06:35

Hollingworthp,

You mean to tell me those Berkshire Hathaway people have done more homework on this than Nichibei has? NEVER! He is not only singlehandedly the most knowledgeable expert on all matters of worldwide FTO cost structure and pricing, but the premiere expert on global employment law and a tax, loan and financial planning expert to boot. Warren Buffet's army of lawyers and managers can't hold a candle to him. Nichibei Aviation is wasting his talent in BizDev. Clearly he should be running the whole company. In fact, Warren Buffet is losing it and his company will be in decline soon, because he has missed this hidden pool of talent and expertise that he should have hired ages ago.

You are a fool Hollingworthp, because you have been suckered in by shiny brochures and lies and your NetJets contract is the biggest one of all. Take it from Nich-av, you are in for a very rude awakening when the house of cards comes tumbling down around your feet. The only good news for you is that once Buffet realizes his mistake and hires Nich-av, there will be a new position open for you and the other hundreds of misled wannabes to compete fight over.*

*HTML humor def tags attributed to Clanger32

Jimmy123

22nd Apr 2008, 09:50

well i was hoping for a bit of stage 2 advice on here.....

but it seems we all just want to moan about finance. Lets get a grip and focus on how we can get the job before we start wingeing about if we are making good money or just pretty good money

hollingworthp

22nd Apr 2008, 14:22

Jimmy

The best place to look is probably OAA's own forum as there are numerous postings about stage 2.

Regards.

nich-av

22nd Apr 2008, 16:32

In addition to the security of employment with NetJets Europe, successful OAA/NetJets candidates will benefit from a special cadet entry First Officer salary programme. In addition to a cadet entry salary of €36,500 per annum, NetJets Europe will also pay those selected for the cadet programme a further €20,000 pa towards repayment of any training costs until such time that the course training costs have been repaid (€56,500 in total for your first year of employment). It is anticipated a full training cost reimbursement will be paid off within 5-6 years of employment with NetJets Europe, at which time the cadet entry First Officer switches to the First Officer salary scale with accrued company seniority from date of joining the airline.

For cadet entry First Officers resident in the UK on entry into the airline, we have been advised by the Inland Revenue that course training cost repayment may be from gross salary i.e. before tax. For cadets resident outside of the UK during the repayment period the deductions will be made from net salary i.e. after tax.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/netjets/nj_info.htm

Ok what do we read here?
1.Inland Revenue?? Since when does the UK inland revenue involve salaries and taxes paid in Euro in Portugal? I would love to know how they managed to do that. If it were British Airways I would believe it, but Netjets? If they can do it with NJE, why don't they do it with Thomas Cook, Flybe and other UK airlines?
2.What does "(€56,500 in total for your first year of employment)" mean?
3.Doesn't repayment mean "loan repayment"?
My interpretation of the underlined section: no loan=no tax-free 20K.

Find answers to all these 3 questions and I'll give you a thumbs up and I'll still keep telling you that it's expensive. Last rumours in the office are that our CEO is looking to sell JAA for 35K euro from next year...

I don't claim that OAA is doing anything illegal. But those who have passed the selections should be asking these questions. I wouldn't love to be told 2 years after start that there has been a mistake...

A good example illustrating that it's not because a big organisation is involved that anything it claims is true: did you all know that fuel surcharges are illegal? Not long ago BA was fined half a billion for applying surcharges over the Atlantic...

clanger32

22nd Apr 2008, 18:38

NichAv....
1/ You're quite right. The UK Customs and revenue bods probably don't give three hairy flying monkeys about salaries paid in Euro from a Portugese company. However they WILL care about salaries paid, in whatever denomination, to UK pilots based on a UK contract with a UK holding company. This, if you believe HollingworthP - who has seen, read, had checked out by a legal expert and signed the NJE cadet contract, is what the UK cadets are on. Hence, it is squarely under revenue and customs (can't remember their new moniker accurately for now!) beady eyes. If you take in the first hand information you are given rather than just believing whatever flight of fancy you choose to believe, then we'll get a lot closer to getting an accurate picture.....

2/ It simply means that the total remuneration NJE will pay in the first year is €56500. This is split into a nominal €36500 of salary and an additional €20000 which is termed "repayment of training costs". Doing it this way is clearly so they can offer the tax break.

3/ Repayment does NOT mean LOAN repayment....it means repayment of training costs, which if you read the post by Adios earlier regarding the relevant legislation....oohh...hang on, yes...it looks like that's EXACTLY what that piece of legislation says....uncanny that...
The repayment amount is reimbursement of training costs....the individual can use that extra lump to bolster their income, or repay their loan...choice is theirs.

On the other comments....I don't think anyone is in any doubt that integrated costs more than modular. I don't think anyone is in any doubt that OAA is at the high end of that market. The problem in this, particular thread, is that you are arguing points that have been shown to be incorrect. The relevant legislation has been posted. People that have read the contracts and had them checked by lawyers have refuted your arguments, even current serving Netjets captains, yet you still insist you are right, despite not even being on the same continent. For the sake of your own credibility and that of the organisation you represent, please, please, please show the grace to admit that you don't know about this. No-one will think worse of you for saying "sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick" or just plain ol' "I don't know about that" but to continue arguing blatantly incorrect points, insisting you know all about UK tax law and the complexities of a sponsorship programme set up between two companies you don't know anything about is pure folly.

P.s.
Adios

nich-av

22nd Apr 2008, 20:38

Clanger32, if you can guarrantee that why don't you give your name and address and add a statement saying that you'll pay for any inconvenience in taxes to these prospective students during their first 5 years of recruitment at NJE?

I'm ready to play the credibility game, it's your turn to throw the dices now.

There's 3 companies involved: NJE, OAA and "a holding".
Is it legal to defer taxes to another country through a holding?
I guess the UK fisc will be very happy for bringing taxes to its country but is the portuguese fisc alright with that? EU law says that you need to pay taxes where your airline's actual management takes place.
I'm aware that there's a UK contract...indeed which says that the working day starts at the UK airport where you're based at... Portugal can contest that anytime they want!! In fact France is contesting already: why would it be ok in the UK and not in France? It doesn't make sense.
It has been proved that it's not ok in France:
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/netjets-europe-labor-practices-investigated/?no_cache=1&cHash=2efe2cd052

A good forum for you: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4029549

More specially this post:
The tax subject as usual is a sensitive subject. Win or loose , have to come from a previous status. If you join , you will not loose because you will get what you signed for.

Now, if you choose a flying career according to the size of the payslip, you will have a poor day and a dull life. ANY flying is good if you can enjoy it. It is all about lifestyle and ego satisfaction. 1 prop , 2 PT6, 3 TFE731 or 4 RR5000 ? It is all the same..
Your best bet is to live where you will comfortable, with the persons you love the most and have a little bit of money to enjoy the package. If you can meet this lucky you, if not....

Many stories about the taxes, the facts as today are :

You sign a UK based contract with Netjets Staff Management
You live in a european country ( not UK or Portugal)
You are taxed at source at a 20% rate, witheld on your pay slip
You pay NHS in UK circa 5000€/ year
You receive your work schedule by Netjets Transportes Aeros
You receive a statement from the portuguese authorities on how much taxes were paid on your behalf in portugal.

What you do or not do with all this is as always up to you. Polemics and rumours can go , the lawyers have opinions, remember they are only advisors, only a judge can rule; so until a courtcase eventually shows up from an individual. It is like this...

Wait till someone in the EU/EASA starts cleaning up this mess before claiming that you're sure about what you say. No one has even graduated this scheme... how can you know that it's all gonna be alright?

Adios

22nd Apr 2008, 20:44

Nich-av,

You betray great ignorance of the industry you try to pass yourself off as supremely knowledgeable about. NetJets does have a UK holding company that their UK pilots work for. I am sure it must puzzle you as to why they would bother. Said company existed long before they offered a cadet programme, so it was not set up to take advantage of ITEPA 250 and 251 for cadets.

NJE have a lot of UK owners. They conduct a lot of maintenance in the UK. They buy a lot of fuel here. If the UK were on the Euro, they would not need a holding company. It would be utterly ridiculous however for them to take UK Sterling revenue from sales and put it in Euro accounts in Portugal and expose these funds to currency risk, then turn around and pay it back to UK FBOs and maintenance and caterers and pilots in Pounds and take a second exchange rate hit. A holding company is the best solution.

So there you have the three answers you asked for as well as the logic behind one of them.

To those who seek info on Stage 2, look here: http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewforum.php?f=44
and here: http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewforum.php?f=47
and here: http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewforum.php?f=39

nich-av

22nd Apr 2008, 21:20

Yes I understand that but the UK holding is not where the airline actually has its management based so taxes are paid in Portugal.

"a lot" is not enough to pay taxes in the UK.

And yes, even the UK contracts are paying their taxes in Portugal...
What you guys are claiming here is that the UK can decide to make 20K tax-free while taxes are paid in Portugal...what a mess of non-sense.

You too Adios, why don't you bring your name and address forward with a guarrantee statement?

I also suggest you grow up a bit and stop throwing critics at me.
I know what this industry is about way better than you. There's 3 generations of pilots in my family and I've grown up in an airport myself.
I know that you're frustrated because you can't prove me wrong but stay polite or quit.

I apologize to the candidates on this forum, but I guess it gives you a good idea of the kind of questions you should be asking them. Don't forget that you are the customer.

Adios

22nd Apr 2008, 22:20

Nich-av,

Nobody can prove you wrong when you're never willing to admit that you are on even the smallest of points, which is pretty apparent. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Pilots working for a UK company that subs them out to NJE on a contract basis are not subject to Portuguese income tax. Neither are the United Airlines ticket agents at Heathrow subject to US income tax. It's really pretty simple.

It kind of goes without saying that the UK tax relief is only available to those who live in the UK. I suspect the reason you can't get your head around it is that you assume the Cadet FOs can live anywhere.

Alann

22nd Apr 2008, 23:07

Hello guys!!

Well, I think we're getting a little away from the original subject of the thread!!
Nichibei, in Europe, when you reside in a country, you pay taxes in the country where you declared the residency, and that's it!
This is right in Europe and this is the way it is almost everywhere on earth! You can't be asked to pay taxes to the country where the company you're working for has its HQ, thats non sense.
(And this is the same about social insurance.)

nich-av

22nd Apr 2008, 23:14

No Alann it is not.
I'm living in Europe, don't worry.

That rule is true for anyone except crew working on board aircraft and ships.

I'll find you the exact law article, don't worry, give me 10 minutes.

Adios

22nd Apr 2008, 23:48

Let's settle this the easy way. I concede. Nich-av is right on all points. He is 100% correct. OAA and NetJets are lying and the very first cadet who realizes it once he finishes his course is going to sue them and then the truth all will come out.

clanger32

23rd Apr 2008, 00:53

Nich,
You [somewhat unbelievably, given your previous 100% success rate on understanding what people are saying] are missing my point.

No, of course I'm not prepared to give a personal guarantee to anyone....the point is that I'm happy to say "I don't know enough to make realistic comments on it, hence I won't" when I'm out of my depth. This is something you CLEARLY can't/won't do. Tell you what though, are YOU prepared to offer the first 6 grads off the Netjets scheme double their tax saving per person over the first year if you're proven wrong? might just[/I] be possible]

In this thread alone you have made out that you have a full complete and unassailable understanding of Europe wide employment legislation, tax law, the innate workings of OAA, NJE, the full workings of the European banking system, currency markets and fluctuations, a full understanding of the contract that these guys and gals will sign and probably nuclear physics as well. If this truly was the case, then believe me, NASA would be paying you a huge sum of money right now...but it seems they're not. You have been told by people who are in a better position - or those who have been advised by the relevant professionals- to know than you, that you are wrong, yet still you persist in trying to convince the world, in the face of overwhelming odds that you are right.

You hang your credibility on the back of working for an hour building operation and being a mod student and - latterly - the fact that you have three generations of aviators in your family. Whoop de do. What do you know of my background that makes you so sure that I know nothing? I'll give you a clue, you have [again suprisingly given your hitherto 100% success rate in getting things right] NO idea about who I am, what I have done with my life or my family background. Yet you presume, despite knowing nothing of me, that you are right and I am wrong....interesting... What if, I don't know, I'd been working in the banking industry for 10 odd years...might I know something about banking then? What if I'd seen the Netjets contract....oooh, crazy notion! Let's just suppose I have plenty of aviators in my family, plenty of friends who are professional aviators and even suppose my WIFES family are aviators as well....but you're right...that couldn't be the case could it....no-one could know better or have a different but correct perspective than you on any single subject....

Has it not occured to you that perhaps, just perhaps, some of the 40 odd people now on the Netjets scheme might just have thought to check out some of this stuff and found it to be ok....like the guy who went to Oxford Uni who is on the course....or the several from Loughborough...one of the better universitys in the UK. Or maybe one of the 3 students with Masters degrees that [B]I know of who are on the scheme...I mean they're clearly as thick as the proverbial.

Still, I suspect Adios is right, you won't ever concede even partial incorrectness even if Professor Stephen Hawking worked it out from first principles for you. That's right Nich, the sky is green and grass is purple...I give in...you're right....

easyflyer

23rd Apr 2008, 03:15

Perhaps the practicioners know about their own legislation and therefore relevant treatment of the Cadets' tax affairs?

"For cadet entry First Officers resident in the UK on entry into the airline, we have been advised by the Inland Revenue that course training cost repayment may be from gross salary i.e. before tax. For cadets resident outside of the UK during the repayment period the deductions will be made from net salary i.e. after tax."

nich-av

23rd Apr 2008, 05:08

Oh wow I'm impressed. :D

You're contesting the most obvious regulation of this industry by saying that an airline crew member is not taxed in the country where the airline AOC is located. Ok fair enough. When there's doubt, there are tax double taxation treaties that all say the same thing:

http://www.fifoost.org/allgemein/divers/oecd_tax_2003/node20.php

1. Subject to the provisions of Articles 16, 18 and 19, salaries, wages and other similar remuneration derived by a resident of a Contracting State in respect of an em- ployment shall be taxable only in that State unless the employment is exercised in the other Contracting State. If the employment is so exercised, such remuneration as is derived therefrom may be taxed in that other State.

2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, remuneration derived by a resident of a Contracting State in respect of an employment exercised in the other Contracting State shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State if:

a) the recipient is present in the other State for a period or periods not exceeding in the aggregate 183 days in any twelve month period commencing or ending in the fiscal year concerned, and

b) the remuneration is paid by, or on behalf of, an employer who is not a resident of the other State, and

c) the remuneration is not borne by a permanent establishment which the employer has in the other State.

3. Notwithstanding the preceding provisions of this Article, remuneration derived in respect of an employment exercised aboard a ship or aircraft operated in international traffic, or aboard a boat engaged in inland waterways transport, may be taxed in the Contracting State in which the place of effective management of the enterprise is situated.

Let's see what explanation OAA provides:

Richard,

I don't know the finer details of how NetJets set the ROTE up, but the £67,500 is eligible and loan interest should be as well.

very convincing for a senior training advisor...
then I found this:

€20,000+€12,460+€460=€12,880 non taxable living expenses

Now I understand what they're teaching at OAA..."how to become a philosopher for dummies"...that explains the higher pricing.
http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?p=23004&sid=8a5f8568dec13b4a3f887d3893199f4c

Oh and the answer is 32920€ by the way...

Thanks for the funny talk, I'm not waisting my time any longer.