How Long will the RAF continue to train fast jet Navs?

[guitarwillie]

Hi
How Long will the RAF continue to train fast jet Navs? I'm applying for a 6th form sponsorship at the moment, and I just wanted to know that if I didn't make pilot then would it still be possible to become a fast jet navigator?

Thanks

GW

[Jackonicko]

Tornado GR4 is due to slog on until 2025. They'll be needing WSOs (they don't call them Navs any more) for them, and will train a few up until quite close to the end.

And we don't yet know what will replace GR4 - it might still be manned, single-seat or two-seat, unmanned or a mix of all of the above.

And there are other great WSO jobs in the air force - on large platforms, and perhaps on small. Navs can captain Nimrods, and can command Nimrod squadrons, so Navs can have great careers. Support helicopters have been flown single pilot/single crewman, pilot/nav/crewman and two pilot/crewman in the last dozen or so years, for example.

[StopStart]

They train them?

[cargosales]

They train them?


Most certainly they are trained. How do you think they end up mastering the correct use of a knife and fork? :}

[Beatriz Fontana]

cargosales,

Hilarious!! Great wind-up material for me when I return to the office. Thank you!! :D

[Dan D'air]

I believe that they are indeed trained. How else would they go from a comprehensive school to OA level standard?

[Magic Mushroom]

My prediction based on current defence spending trends is that the decision to bin the GR4 will be taken by 2015 and they'll all be gone by 2018 at the latest.

The capability will be taken by a mix of Typhoon, F-35, TLAM and UAVs. I really can't see them hanging on until 2025.

Regards,
MM

[Impiger]

Current plan is to take 21 WSOs in to training each year for the next 5 years at least. Not sure how many are destined for GR4 but I'd guess about 40% say 8 a year. Now for my money that really ain't worth running a separate training course for. Much more cost effective to train 8 more pilots and send the bottom of each course to sit in the back for a tour or so while they get up to speed.

Directional consultancy is a dying profession.:sad:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Directional consultancy is a dying profession


I believe that rigor mortis had set in when both pilots and navs stopped using fablon covered half mills.

[Slotback]

I'm sure that they will stop training them in time to ensure a manning crisis for the last few years of the GR4, Nimrod etc.

[Vage Rot]

Shut up Nav we are in the circuit and we can see Rwy 24.

Had an instructor Bigglesworth say that to me once when I told him he was a little wide of the CCT at night. Told him to come left to regain - he didn't. Radalt bottomed out at 100 ft as we passed over the ridge 5nm south of ISK, 1000ft QFE over a 900ft ridge with a mast on top - guess we just missed the mast!

The low flying complaint that followed stated that the bloke had lived tere for 15 years but it was the first time he had thought an ac was coming through his lounge window!!

Thanks for the fright Bob!!

[aw ditor]

I believe a Mk1 Shack hit it in the late 50s.'

[Logistics Loader]

I remember Taff Warren (ex VC10 Capt) telling me story of his Nav on a route somewhere,

Conversation along these lines....

Nav::: Capt, turn left 20degs
Capt:: ok....

time delay unknown...

Nav::: Capt, turn right 20degs
Capt:: ok.....

further time lapse.....

Nav::: Capt, turn left 20degs
Capt:: Surely we are back on same course Nav...

Nav:: Affirm !!
Capt: Why the detour ??

Nav:: i dropped me dinner on the bloody chart..!!!


Ops room fell about larfing big time....

[Pontius Navigator]

Nav::: Capt, turn left 20degs
Capt:: ok....

Nav::: Capt, turn right 20degs
Capt:: ok.....


Nav::: Capt, turn left 20degs
Capt:: Surely we are back on same course Nav...

Nav:: Affirm !!

A Nav wouldn't have cocked up this story.:}

It was also one Gus Gillies, Canberra Nav, en route Akrotiri-Germany who had to DR around the spilt coffee on his chart.

[mugwuffin]

The WSOs are still going through the sausage factory thick and fast - and the vast majority are getting streamed fast jet. (But they are all on SSCs.)

[muttywhitedog]

And these days, your A Level or equivalent will be transferrable to another large employer after your Nav days are over...

"Would you like fries with your Big Mac Sir"...:)

[ProfessionalStudent]

The WSOs are still going through the sausage factory thick and fast - and the vast majority are getting streamed fast jet. (But they are all on SSCs.)

... with the emphasis on the THICK... :eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

An interesting statistic, following Professional Student's accute observation is that many of the WSO going through thick and fast will have been wanabee pilots in the first place.

A significantly high number continue through -

to Provost or Regiment (if they pass JROC).

Whick all goes to show that there is more to the rumour that a Nav's Nav Bag is full of bananas and a pilot pacifier.

[Impiger]

Of course some aircraft fly such huge circuits the directional black-belts are still taking fixes downwind.

And as for being able to see the runway ..... took a new to the F4 but ex-QFI on a round robin of the minor Scottish airfields as part of his intro to QRA diversions. Downwind in the visual at Wick says I to the nose gunner: "You're on the wrong heading I reckon you're going for the wrong runway" (there are 2 about 20 degrees apart) "No I'm not" came the bold reply.

Finals to overshoot and eventually the stick monkey admitted he might just have been wrong. After a request to me to check the QDM in the red book he then decided the compass must have unsynched (Ferranti INAS so what's to synch?). Eventually on climb away he had the grace to admit to ATC that he may have picked the wrong runway. "Really! I wasn't watching but then there's no one else here but a flock of sheep so I guess you're forgiven" came the genteel response from Wick Tower.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I just love those "I told the pilot what to do and he didn't listen to me cos I'm much cleverer than him stories"........................just remind us all again how you never wanted to be a pilot and always wanted to be second best:rolleyes:

Envy is always disappointing in a grown man :=

[Boldface]

An interesting statistic, following Professional Student's accute observation is that many of the WSO going through thick and fast will have been wanabee pilots in the first place.

A significantly high number continue through -

to Provost or Regiment (if they pass JROC).

Whick all goes to show that there is more to the rumour that a Nav's Nav Bag is full of bananas and a pilot pacifier.


Top tips for navs: only banter in writing if you can spell and have good grammar.:rolleyes:

[PARALLEL TRACK]

Lots of stick monkeys, HUD monkeys and so called nose gunners have tried to kill back seaters/side seaters and real PR9 nosegunners over the years. The extra set of eyes saved the day! If being a pilot was difficult -would'nt navs have been given the job years ago?

[gsora]

Hi Seldomfitforpurpose,

This is an old one, master race v one wing master race, I am a pilot , however never qualified as you seem to be.

I was a techi (radar) on the Shackleton 60`s 70`s , later to be a very humble RAFVR(T) motor glider inst.

In that era on those aircraft (Shack) the pilot did what he was told regarding heading and position.

Most of the Pilots were very skilled both in their flying and more importantly in tactics, I say most because I believe Navs could be Captain?

I assume that pilots needed Navs because the task was complex?

Please never deride these skilled people Nav or WSO, they are there because they are needed.

HRUMPH

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

gsora,

I joined as a techie in 74 and am now a ALM, never been a pilot and now aged 50 never will..............although I would give my.........either arm to do so.

I read these rather silly threads and smile wryly to myself as I can think of a few occasions that pilots I have flown with have made mistakes and I have jokingly ripped the pi@@ out of them.

But then conversely I can think of a many more times than I wish to recall that the most brand new pilot has saved my bacon :D

My snipe was aimed the "failed" brethren who so obviously have an Axe to grind.

[mugwuffin]

I'm yet to meet a WSO who was a pilot in any guise before - but I know a few that have been the opposite... They seem to hate navs more than your average jockey too. (Bit like teetotallers having a harsh view on drunks???)

[Pontius Navigator]

mugwiffen, you have been around a lot then.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

He has a valid point though as I am sure the teetotaler who has managed to turn his otherwise pointless existence into something with REAL meaning which then defines himself as a credible member of society would probably be remarkably similar to the way that a Pilot who used to be a Nav would see themselves :E