Longhaul Direct Entry Captains......

[artax]

I've looked and looked and not seen much at all....

I'd like to shift from short haul to long haul without going back to the right hand seat..... anybody know which airlines might be interested in a short-haul captain (B737 and A320) wanting to fly further in a day?

[relax.jet]

I don't but tell me pls if you find any. :)

[outofsynch]

Try Etihad... have A320 but option to move up long haul ladder in LHS.

[Bluasfly]

Most widebody longhaul airlines frieght or passenger will not even look at you if you have not got any P1 time in big a jet. 3/5 years min in rt. seat.

[artax]

Yes that seems to be the case.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on why that would be....

Never having flown widebody/longhaul I'm not sure what the big differences are.

[brakedwell]

Never having flown widebody/longhaul I'm not sure what the big differences are.

Hours of boredom, jet lag and soulless hotels.

[747dieseldude]

You can try the AJX/AJV contracts in Japan, or maybe a longshot, the KAL contract.

Good luck.

[The Yank]

"I'd be interested to know your thoughts on why that would be....

Never having flown widebody/longhaul I'm not sure what the big differences are."


might be just me but any Capt in the industry knows the difference.

[bear11]

Some airlines such as Qatar have A319 with extra tanks that fly longhaul, good for thin routes or proving a route initially.

I would be very careful joining a lot of airlines on a A320 fleet while on a promise of longhaul. It may help an airline fill 320 slots, but mightn't help the pilot fly longhaul....

[Knee Trembler]

Try Aerologic. Their requirements are very low for DECs, however I suspect you (we) will be competing with the rest of the world for a job.

www.aerologic.aero

KT

[Hobbit]

Well said, didn't brakedwell sum it up? Certainly no difference in piloting skill.

[artax]

Well said, didn't brakedwell sum it up? Certainly no difference in piloting skill.

So why the wall :ugh: between narrow and widebody? I don't think anyone's refusing A320 jobs to pilots with A340 time.......

Anyway, Aerologic looks interesting. By the way, it's www.aerologic.aero, unless you want a job in streamline flow analysis!

Etihad might be worth a look, but my experience as a passenger with them was truly awful.

The KAL contract would be lovely, but like you say, a long shot.

[Honiley]

IMHO,

There is very little difference, I went from short haul to long in 3 days ground school, 2 sims and some line training when I was flying as an already experienced pilot...

It's not an issue! Particulary if you're flying a variant (B757/B767 - A320/A330)

Lots more things to consider but as an experienced heavy jet pilot you probably had worked out anyway before you we're told it on your groundschool/line training...

It's all about more money and more time off..!!!!

[kj990]

In BA if you're senior enough with a valid bid for LHS longhaul you get it.

[Jet A1]

After a good 15-20 years.....:D

[Lord Lardy]

Nothing to do with ability in my airline. (well when I say ability it assumes that when you have command in the company you have proven your ability) It's all got to do with seniority. Each year you put a bid in for what you want. If you're senior enough in the left seat of shorthaul you simply do the conversion course from one aircraft to the other. You certainly don't go back into the right seat again just because of the type of aircraft. Taking captains out of the equation, when the airline had turboprops we actually used to have some FO's going from turboprop rightseat to longhaul jet without having any previous jet experience. It never seemed to cause any problems.

It's quite funny actually as in the past few years it is not always one way traffic. Some shorthaul captains are now putting a bid in for longhaul, doing it for a year and then coming back. Believe me it's not all it's cracked up to be in my experience. Long hours of boredom followed by rapidly reducing rest periods. Certainly hasn't the excitment factor of years ago.

[artax]

From dusk til dawn said: "Do you really think that there is no difference in the job except leg time and jetlag???"

No I don't. I asked the question because I don't know the answer. I imagine that the airlines have a sound reason for making the distinction between these different types of flying.

Clearly you are aware of differences that I am not aware of, so I'd be interested to hear your comments. I guess you are RHS on longhaul?

[Stan Woolley]

Give him a break.... he's probably just tired and grumpy from constantly flying his 'wide body' From Dusk till Dawn!

I fly 737s and could only dream of flying a JUMBO. :ugh:

Basically I prefer to be at home with family but I'm really glad I did a bit of long haul - it's good experience but not rocket science lads! If you feel the need to get it out of your system better give it a go!

I admit to being what the BA boys call a FEWDAL! ;)

[artax]

Er....what's a FEWDAL?

[Stan Woolley]

A ' Flat earth w..... dabbling at Longhaul'

[Capt Ted Crilly]

gday guys

was a 737 driver in europe lhs in the loco sector doing 900 hrs a year now on 340 rhs doing 750 hrs a year.

as someone pointed out there isnt really much of a difference......except quite rightly the boredom,hotel rooms on christmas day,jetlag which is an awful feeling,if you are relief on a long sector you mightnt even manipulate the controls (you become a well dressed well paid passenger).

if you are a hands on kinda guy give long haul a miss,however time off is good.

:ok:

[parabellum]

I think some airlines would prefer a DEC to have previous long haul experience because the DEC will have been there and done that and won't be at the back of a rather mild and fairly short learning curve.
Short haul tend to remain within their own climatological region whereas on long haul it can change from trip to trip, e.g. Singapore this trip east coast of the USA in winter next sort of thing and you may only get to visit some very busy destinations with variable ATC and en route procedures once every two or three months.
When they employ you as a DEC the company is hoping to be buying your relevant experience as well, if they are desperate then they will teach you the differences but would prefer not to have to. My two cents worth.

[fly123456]

I know a B737 captain hired by Qatar Airways directly on the A330.
If you don't mind living in the sandpit, you could give it a try, and negociate with them if they only offer you the A319 fleet.

Korean Airlines might be another one. (Heard they take non-rated captains, now)

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

I knew a guy, who upgraded from LHS of an ATR-72 directly to LHS of a 777. Now, this idea gives me wet dreams! :}

[No_Speed_Restriction]

and what happened when he woke up?

[brakedwell]

and what happened when he woke up?

He couldn't remember where he was! :p

[Capt Ted Crilly]

he woke up to soon and it turned out to be a dry dream.

[No_Speed_Restriction]

An airline would have to be on a "corporate suicide mission" if they were to take on DEC for the 777 with only ATR experience.

[brakedwell]

Their insurance premiums would head north PDQ.

[3Greens]

Why? the poster didn't say that the chap only had ATR experiance.Maybe he had heavy jet experiance before ATR.
This used to happen regularly at BA, we even had chaps go LHS on turboprop to LHS Concorde.

[PENKO]

I can understand the ever going discussion about shorthaul vs. longhaul. Personally I think ego has a lot to do about it, but hey what do I know!

What I cannot understand is the term 'wide-body experience'.
Why would a corporate Gulfstream V PIC not be 'able' to apply for a 777 captaincy?

Is it because of the longer wings?
Is it the pressure to please more women in the back?
Heavier usually flies easier so...
What is this so called wide-body experience?

[ray cosmic]

In all honesty, I changed to longhaul to facilitate a change of lifestyle, not to please my ego. And I really do net regret this. Now I joined of course at the bottom of a list, and would not see why a guy, who happened to have joined an airline during the heydays should have "priority". By the time I'll be captain we are talking around 16 years FO time.. I guess it would be problematic to put me up with a DEC in my 15th year! :hmm:

[Enos]

Hi ARTAX

Have you considered Flyglobespan they have a requirement for 737 Captains at the moment.

They were operating 737s across to the states last year, not sure at the moment with there ETOPs issues, but I think they are still doing Canada.

They also have a wet lease contract in KL for two 73s.

They also type rate pilots off the 737 onto the 767, mostly FOs at the moment, and 767 FOs back to the 737 for commands.

Try Wynnwith or Zenon if you're interested they do the recruitment.

Enos :ok:

[peter_perfect]

So lets flip the debate around do those longhaul pilots who wish to go short haul feel that they are suitably qualified for a DEC on something smaller that say does a 4 sector day into demanding european airports or Greek or Egyptian. That have very little or no ATC and a very "hooky" looking Vor/DME that threads you through the hills at 4am??? If the answer is yes then we are then saying that long haul is the pinacle of aviation experience !!! It equips you to fly anything.

However if we are saying no, you would need say 6 months RHS to get used to the 4 sectors and the problems we face in europe, then it would seem that both long and short haul have mutually transferable skills that need focussing on the relevant type of flying be it long haul and short haul.

Now surely command is all about aircraft management skills and nothing to do with being a "stick and rudder man/woman". These things have autopilots and personally i encourage my right seater to keep that in as long as humanly possible, stops the coffee being spilt.

So the story about the ATR captain swapping, surely a good captain is a good captain ie a good manager. There are a lot of not so great guys with lots of experience running around. So IMHO a good skipper on an ATR making close decisions getting into a Sligo on a windy day will make the same good decisions landing the 777 into miami on wet and windy day. Now maybe airlines put people DEC heavy who they have noted as good captains, who have made command decisions.

Who would you rather have in your left seat on the 777 a guy who has 10 years jet command say on a A320 who has made the decisions for 10 years flying with say an F/O with 5years on 777 who can fly. Or a Guy with 6 years F/O experience and no Command experience ?? Sometimes the hardest decision a captain has to make ist to tell the company that he/she is not taking the aircraft out no matter what the commercial pressure.. That ability comes with experience and confidence in your command experience..

Maybe that confidence is why some operators take DEC's on wide body after all the weight of the aircraft is just a number.

[parabellum]

Bear in mind also that the 'suitably' experienced DEC with wide body and long haul hours probably has already done the four sector day ad infinitum.

[Fullblast]

Peter-perfect ...quoted 100%

FB

[Georgey]

Im my opinion flying with a long haul capt vs shorthaul is like chalk and cheese.

The precision, calmness and overall atmosphere in the cockpit with the long haul guys is miles different to the short haul rapid fire guys.

Experience most definitely shows, and it does take years.

Its like flying with an old kung foo master vs karate kid!

[36050100]

The precision, calmness and overall atmosphere in the cockpit with the long haul guys is miles different to the short haul rapid fire guys.

Could be skill and ability or it could just be that the long haul guys spread the work out to fill 11 hrs whilst the short haul guys have to get it done in less than an hour.

[peter_perfect]

I think the previous makes the short haul sound as though you go around with your hair on fire. Flying a mix of both 6/7 hour sectors and the 40 mins to amsterdam. There is no difference of level of activity on a flight deck. I am sure the level activity approaching JFK is no different to approaching amsterdam on a busy monday morning. You get weather you brief, the only difference is the amount of time between flap retraction and 10,000 feet that you have to either "scoff" your breakfast or chew every mouthfull 15 times.

Still not convinced. Agreed the ETOPs element is different, howevere many shorthaul are flying tango routes to the canaries already. Same decisions being made if you lose an engine. You either divert to marakesh on the canaries or you go to Greenland with the 767...

Either way its no black art, it aint rocket science, planes go up and planes come down and how you manage the inbetween is all down to how good your CRM and command skills are.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I knew a guy, who upgraded from LHS of an ATR-72 directly to LHS of a 777. Now, this idea gives me wet dreams!

Ha! That's nothing!

Many people know/knew a guy who went from RHS is a very aristocratic sounding UK airline to Chief Training Captain (yes, it's true!) of a very smarmy sounding one.

He didn't last long, but he sacred the crap outa lotta folks in the meantime.

[Virtual Reality]

Try this

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=314285

from thread #7 onwards......:ok:

Good luck

[cupoftea]

From Dusk till dawn, you seem to describing yourself, a careerfo waiting for his first captaincy. You may see yourself as the master himself regarding heavy iron, but that is a trick we all can learn pretty quick.
Therefore it is not sure you will be a good captain as well.
For that reason companies take DEC when their fo's are not(yet) up to the job.
I would rather fly with a 10000 hr ex 737 captain on a jumbo, then a 5000hr just upgraded first time captain.
In the past, you would go back first to a smaller type as a captain and then go back as captain wide body, but I guess times change

[artax]

Thanks folks.

You've given me lots to think about.

cheers! :)

[Count von Altibar]

It's all about ego and this thread is way off the original topic...