Women Pilots

[Davina777]

I've met many male pilots, i know plenty about the lifestyle.. however I've never met a Female Airline pilot, who's well.. straight with family? - have I just been unlucky, or is this career impossible for women with children?

Does flying and starting a family difficult? (I am think long term here, btw)
What are the advantages/disadvanges. thanks in advance.

:p

[nick14]

im not sure about women as pilots as im still doing my cpl.

my instructor is female and married to an airline fo.

if ure looking to start check out the £2000 bursary for females on the oxford aviation website!

good luck

[BerksFlyer]

if ure looking to start check out the £2000 bursary for females on the oxford aviation website!

No bursaries for males then?

[nick14]

no sadly not must be too many of us, must be an initiative to train more female pilots.

good on em i say

[BerksFlyer]

I think it's the right thing to try and equal the gap between the number of male pilots and the number of female pilots, but they need to look deeper into it. I'm certain the main reason for it being a male dominated industry is simply because on the whole, more males are into it. So by giving females bursaries, it's only really going to help females who already want to do it, and bursary or no bursary, the ones benefitting from it are going to get their licences anyway.

They should really just accept that in the current day, there are more men actually wanting to do the job. But that doesn't mean females who want to do it should be disadvantaged - but I think its wrong to give them an advantage over males.

All this positive discrimination is stupid, people should be rewarded for their suitability and capability, not their gender, ethnicity or sexuality.

[milehighdriver]

Hi Davina,

Both myself and my other half are FO's with a mini-me in tow! She's straight! (There goes my fantasy!)

Anyway, were both on the same fleet and the hardest bit is juggling our rosters, so that at least one of us is at home.

We have 30+ female pilots here, both left seat and right. A large percentage with kids and partners in the airline.

The main problem with the job is the unusual hours associated. On short haul you can either start your duty very early or finish very late. On long haul you obviously end up spending quite a few nights away each week. You'll need either a very understanding partner (not sure if they exist!) or an au-pair/nanny. (Ours always chosen by the other half and with a BMI of 30+)

A large percentage of our female pilot with families also tend to opt for part time conditions.

Other than that, no different from any other job with shift work.

Hope that helps!

[BelArgUSA]

We have a few here in Argentina.
xxx
Most of the ones who are married and have little children, elect to fly short haul, 737 or MD-80s and are not frequently on layovers away from home. Rosters are often made to favor them, such as getting weekends off, matching school holidays and vacation periods. We have a few flying long haul, but they either are single or with older kids.
xxx
The problem is the same as female flight attendants, no difference. Females are entitled to pregnancy and maternity leave. Both at AEP and EZE, we also have airport nurseries operating 24 hrs for children of airline employees up to age 6.
xxx
Just to mention, we have very few "pilot couples". I only know two who are married, husband/wife pilot team, but company policy would prohibit them to operate together as a crew. He is a 747 F/O and she is a 737 F/O. Easy to understand... imagine a domestic argument during an approach...! I like the only female F/O that I fly with occasionally, but hell, I would never date her nor marry her. When she goes out for a drink after a flight with the F/E and myself, all we talk about is airplanes. I personally dont think it is easy to be a "pilot married to a pilot" (nor to a flight attendant).
xxx
I dont think female pilots need "to be different kind of human beings" to have an airline career. My wife was a dancer with a tango troupe with worldwide tours, and was more often "on the road" and logged "more flying time" than my own flying. By chance we had her parents to take care of our kids. So dont tell me about being pilot and not being able to have a family...
xxx
Ladies, my best wishes to you. And some of we male pilot are real gentlemen...!
:)
Happy contrails

[Fly_Gurl]

I'm a female pilot, finished all my training and getting into the flying work force soon, I've been worried about how it is for females regarding chances of getting work, families etc etc.... I have found these posts really handy and at the same time makes me feel like I definatly am in the right career, although I would have never given up anyway. THANKS!

[funkydrumming]

Hi,hows everyone?Just thought id let you know that we have about 25 female pilots working for us.All the ones i have flown with have come from a commercial back ground,and are now captains or F.o's on the A340 or the B747.Most of them have families of all ages,good luck for the future :ok:

[redsnail]

It depends. Timing is every thing.

I got married at 40 and had just finally cracked a good job. At 41 I got promoted to captain and now finally in a position to really enjoy our lives and also put away some money for retirement.
Children aren't really a viable option for us for many reasons. Apart from any thing else, our families are on the other side of the planet and with no support, it would be nigh impossible.

Had I been 10 years younger and in the same position, children might have been an option.

Most of my colleagues with very young children work in the office. I don't know how my colleagues with older children handle it. Child care isn't cheap.

[G SXTY]

My female PPL instructor now flies Dash-8s in all sorts of far flung places, but has no maternal instincts at all.

Personally I would hate to have to juggle this job with bringing up children - it must be tough.

[Davina777]

Wow, some amazing responses.. thank you everyone sooo much!

BelArgUSA - some airports have nurseries for airline crew, thats amazing i didn't know that! Luckily I am already married, he's not into aviation and is far to understanding for his own good sometimes! lol.

nick14 - Oxford give women a £2k bursery, thats amazing!! I had ruled oxford out, but they may be back in the running again!

[Paddington]

I've sent you a PM.

[Fly_Gurl]

It sounds like if you can afford childcare or have a partner who is willing to play half a mom too you can get anywhere!

[Milt]

How does the "Standard Woman" cope with aircraft/space-vehicle controls and flight decks which have all been designed and configured so far for the "Standard Man" ?

I believe the Standard Woman specifications remain to be firmly established. Wouldn't care to be on that committee! How then should designers and test pilots develop a compromise?

Flight control force and feel specifications are of most concern.

Must female pilots wear slacks or are skirts permitted. I presume high heel shoes are a no no!

For how long are newly pregnant women permitted by airlines/regulators to continue flying and how soon may they resume flying after a birth?

[redsnail]

Milt,

"Fitting" the aircraft was more of a problem in the C207 type of aircraft, versus the more complex ones. The seats and rudder pedals are all adjustable in the more complex beasties so "fitting" it is less of an issue. An extra cushion solved the problem. Short guys have similar problems while very tall guys have other problems.

Control force/feel is balanced out so that's not a problem. If it's a large aircraft, it's hydraulically powered so it's doing all the work. Either way, the trim's your friend.

I don't think I've ever seen a female pilot wear a skirt whilst flying, it isn't the most practical piece of apparel. Sometimes I wear a tie, sometimes I wear a scarf. Both are acceptable.

With regards pregnancy. Different regulatory bodies have slightly different ideas. In JAA land. You're automatically grounded upon finding out you're pregnant. Then your flight status can be restored after consultation with your doctors. Then you're ok to fly (assuming you're ok) until the 3rd trimester when the risk of early delivery and the bulk of the baby make it impractical.

[wickednoel]

My perception is, that it is an impractical career choice for any woman with young children, unless they have a stay at home husband or a full time nanny. Hence most female pilots are primarily career focussed and not inclined to have a family…No reason why it can’t be done though, eh?

[Fly_Gurl]

I'm career focused and still very inclined to have a family....I dont think it really makes a difference, I never had a thought to give up either of them.

[mad_jock]

The flying while pregnant is dependent on multiple doctors and a risk case.

I recently was flying with an FO who was in the last week of her third (thingy) it wasn't very comfy for her.

The route was a coporate bus service and the customer was more than happy.

I must admit it does put a new dimension on pilot incapacitation.

[Luke SkyToddler]

^^^^ That was Mrs SkyToddler that mad_jock's referring to, and SkyToddler junior is expected any day now.

My wife's been flying commercially for about 3 years now, me for about 12. I'm currently flying the A330 and she's on the Jetstream. Obviously she's not medically fit at the moment and she has to take a bit of time off now to give the little fella a head start in life, but we have every plan and expectation that within a year or so she'll be back in the driver's seat. To be honest I've pretty much gotten over the whole big-jet head trip myself, and I'm more than happy to take a gap year or two and do the house husband thing when she decides it's time to go back flying. Or, if we can go back to smaller aircraft on a part time roster and fly together like back in the old days that'd be fantastic as well. I have to say there's no chance of both of us working long-haul-big-jets from what I've seen of the lifestyle so far.

Obviously there's a certain element of making sacrifices for the other one, but we work as a team and we'll both have more than our fair share of fun out of this aviation thing before we're finished :)

[Paddington]

scratchingthesky - I know 1 captain and 4 co-pilots within my large company who have had kids and have returned to flying straight after their maternity leave. I think that they're all part-time and I'm fairly sure that they all intend to fly for approx 40 years in all as they are all career minded. Most share the child-care with their partner, some also have parents nearby who help out. They're all currently on short-haul routes so can get home more frequently than our long-haul colleagues.

Paid child-care tends to be focused on 9-5 jobs and is therefore more expensive and harder to get hold of.

The BA pilot who you're referring to had a good legal case because BA kept changing their reason as to why she wasn't allowed part-time work. Initially they said that they were simply too short of First Officers on her fleet. No mention of safety issues at all. They only decided to introduce a minimum 2000 hour rule many months AFTER her pregnancy and part-time application. They changed the rules not her. If that had been a rule before hand she would have planned accordingly.

Fly_Gurl - As with you I'm both career and family minded. At no point during my application, training or 9 years so far with my company has anyone indicated I would have to give up my flying permanently in order to bring up my children. In fact, when I went for my initial medical back in '95 they were at pains to stress they had a creche available at one airport. My husband and I know it's going to be tough but I would hate to have to give up my career when we have children. I have always relied on the fact that part-time work is available and that our combined salaries would help with child-care costs.

Milt - As red snail says, with adjustable rudder pedals and seating there's a reasonable range of builds that can fit behind a control column. As long as you can get full rudder in - for the engine failure case - you're fine and that's something that can be checked on a simulator before starting a conversion course. You should see some of the beer bellies that manage to fit! ;) I think that our company has a 5'1" cut-off.

[looptheloop]

There's a great website set up by Lynda Meeks, a female airline pilot-www.girlswithwings.com which hopes to encourage more girls into all aspects of aviation ranging from pilots to controllers, managers and engineers. The site encourages females in aviation to write a short biography to hopefully inspire youngsters to follow their path or carve out their own. Any female pilots reading this might like to write their own biography to go on the site, you will be in good company- some of the stories are amazing.
Along with the Oxford bursary there are also The Air League's annual award for Women in Aviation as well as the British Women Pilots Association's Amy Johnson memorial scholarship to help towards CPL/ATPL training.

[Paddington]

Looptheloop, I have to say that I'm not in favour of single sex scholarships like that. I would be taken aback if men had something similar. We should be encouraging whoever wants to be a pilot - regardless of their gender - not just women. Why the positive discrimination?

[Bearing 123]

Very well said Paddington!
In this world thats gone PC mad, I think offering a bursary to one and not to the other is unfair and discriminating. Imagine it the other way around:eek: There would be uproar.
Flying in my opinion is not a gender issue. The aeroplane does not know who's flying it. If a person is competent, they make the grade regardless of gender, race, etc.
A level playing field for all I say .
See you on deck:ok:

[GS-Alpha]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OamivXyQXw

[Paddington]

That made me smile. Thankfully we've come a long way in 40 years.

[Paddington]

Davina777, have you seen this thread?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69298

[hungryLinehunter]

Previously captain on airbus,had the opportunity to have as f/o a young woman and she had a fascinating fluency in her job as a pilot as well as handling her husband(A340 capt) and a 2 year old baby.
They try share the time in the air and on the ground.And the company helps them with a 'proper' scheduling of their flights.
Somehow I still remember her telling me about seeing her hubby an average of 7 days a month.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[looptheloop]

I agree that scholarships should be given to who ever is considered most worthy. The two that i made reference to are slightly different, one is given by the British Womens Pilots Association which i would imagine have a rationale to encourage more women into aviation and is given in memory of Amy Johnson. The second is just one of many given by the Air League for a whole host of reasons, many of their scholarships are aimed at youngsters just starting their flying career, male and female. I believe it is the discretion of the person who contributes the money for the award who can stipulate what criteria it is given under.

[Paddington]

I'm glad to hear that the Air League award to whoever is most worthy.

When I first became interested in flying I heard about the British Womens Pilots Association. I decided not to join on priniciple because I wouldn't have liked to have seen a male equivalent. I agree that whoever puts up the money can stipulate the criteria. I just don't happen to agree with them myself!

I suppose that you could argue that this particular scholarship wouldn't otherwise exist and that it's better to have a discriminatory one than none at all.

[pilotpassion]

Hey Davina,
I don't think mixing flying (as a job) and having a family creates problems for women in particular. If it did, the problems would be in theory the same as for men. Of course, traditions used to want that men go to work, bring money home to feed the family, and women would stay home taking care of the children. That doesn't mean anything to me. What I mean is as long as you find the right balance, anything is possible. There is no reason for doubting this, coz hey - for us pilots or dreamers, what's better than flying and having a family, and what's better than combining both?

Hope I've been useful to you,
xxx all the best for the future :)

Kenny

[Davina777]

Thats great everyone, thanks so much for everyone's responses and PM's. I hadn't heard of the Womens Pilots Association either, have just been browsing.

Thanks everyone.xxxxxxxxx

[boydyboyd]

I've been told that women make better pilots. and i was told this by my MALE instructor.

[baires1]

:Dflaco sos un fraude

[MarkColeman]

2000 bursary for women is such a joke!

where are all the equal rights feminists? oh wait the ladies are getting discriminated against in a preferential manner, and its the men who are getting shafted - hence this type of discrimination is ok, nothing to worry about great?

:mad:

[dontpressthat]

Couldnt help but think of this while reading this thread.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou0X5D8KKB0

DPT

[MarkColeman]

For a start, doing aeronautical engineering at uni as one of only a few girls in a class of 150, in terms of the group stuff/exams etc, alot (not all!) of the guys just assume you dont have a clue and are only doing it cos you think planes are pretty and you're only doing the course cos you want to learn how to design your own pink, personalised flowery one. (and this was after a good few visits of my school career advisor trying to suggest something thats maybe 'a bit more suited')

Some good grades in your exams would surely be the best way to shut those guys, and career advisor up? a 2 grand discount is hardly going to change their attitudes to women pilots is it?

Then when I started my PPL I had to change instructors as the first guy I had was constantly perving and hitting on me and making me feel generally uncomfortable.

I had to change instructors once because the guy was a little prick who made up for what he lacked in height with his ego. you know the type. So wheres my 2 grand?

I think you'll find the point of the Amy Johnson scholarship and also things like the BWPA are all in place to ENCOURAGE more women into aviation. The same women who have probably been discouraged from aviation by the likes of the above situations and attitudes from dinosaurs like yourself.

Yeah i bet a nice 2000 bursary would ENCOURAGE more guys into aviation aswell. I take offence to your comment that my attitude might have discouraged anyone from entering aviation. Ive been asked by girls if there are many women pilots being trained and my answer has always been along the lines of 'not many, but i know a few and they generally have the same difficulties and success's as the guys'.

Also im not a dinosaur, im 24.


Its just my own personal experience, but if, as you put it, "women are being discriminated against in a preferential manner and its the men who are getting shafted", whats one award of £2000 a year compared to how hard it can be for the rest of the year?

Yeah its hard for guys too. I find women pilots dont have to put up with too much **** from guys when they go out and do well in their training, pass their exams and pass their check rides. Having an attitude that theyre deserving of preferential treatment based on their gender however, like you seem to have, will lead them to getting **** off their male colleagues.

And if it bothers you that much, whats to stop you dressing up in a skirt and tights and applying for it yourself?

Hey maybe thats not a bad idea, maybe i would be treated differantly if i was a girl, and that my dear, validates my original point thankyouverymuch!!

[BerksFlyer]

Harry Enfield is a legend I think it's fair to say dontpressthat.

colette,

If I'm honest I don't see how it would be harder for women to get into aviation. Opinions of the majority of men towards women in the cockpit are that they are equal. Perhaps some women think they are seeing something that simply isn't there anymore? It just happens to be a fact that more males are into it than females.

The problem is that in trying to 'encourage' females into aviation, it is putting males at a practical disadvantage. If there was a male only bursary, which I would also be against, given by OAA and say (if there was such thing) the BMPA I bet it would put a lot of females out. Very much like the female only thing annoys the likes of MarkColeman who has made a very fair point all be it in a perceived anti-women way by yourself.

I can't help but feel that you think women should be wrapped up in cotton wool and treated preferentially, when infact (shock horror) 99% of problems females face are probably faced by males aswell. It's not all about gender. Get over it.

And why does it bother you so much about being seen as different on an aero eng course? Why let it get to you? People are seen as different more often for their attitude than their sex ;)

[redsnail]

Having being in the industry for about 20 years I have found that for most of the time there's no issue about gender. Note, I did not say that there is NO issue whatsoever.

I have encountered some instructors with a bias against women. I have found some passengers and students with the same attitude. Fortunately, the vast majority are fine. I still find some nationalities have a definite bias against women.

I don't know why guys get all bent out of shape about the BWPA and AWPA bursaries. Since the person leaving the money states exactly how it is to be spent as per their will, they (AWPA and BWPA) lose that money if it isn't used correctly. Both organisations also provide money for both genders. So, if those organisations didn't exist, both would lose out. Also, if many of the bursaries have quite strict rules, some do require paying back.

Quite a few of the bursaries are for PPL holders only any way so they are no threat to any one wanting a professional license.

I know a few women who've missed out on this career because they were born too early in the 20th century and thus, couldn't fly for a living because they were expected to quit flying post WW2. Is that fair?

I don't agree that a "minority" should have extra allowances and the like. That does ruin it for all.

1% of all ATPL holders are women. Guys, I'd worry about the other 99%.

[Paddington]

Colette, I'm sorry about the experiences that you've had.

In a decade of flying I've had only a handful of comments/experiences from my coursemates/instructors/colleagues which might be construed as sexist. On the whole they've treated me exactly the same as my male colleagues. It's the passengers who react in an exaggerated fashion - whether positively or negatively - and make me feel as if I'm standing under a spot-light!

[Paddington]

Davina777,

Your initial post on this thread asked if flying and starting a family were difficult.

I've got one extra thought to add to your decision; in my company you'd need to plan ahead to save up enough if you wanted to take maternity leave. In my company we get the legal minimum which is 90% for 6 weeks and then onto £117pw Statutory Maternity Pay for up to another 27 weeks. Most women hope to breast-feed for at least 6 months and NHS guidelines suggest up to a year is good.

If you were the main earner this would be a big change from an airline pilot's salary.

It can be done with some planning ahead or mortgage holidays but is something to bear in mind when deciding if/when to start your family.

[AltFlaps]

We've got lots of female pilots ...

They're not very good though, but we do have them :}

[AltFlaps]

Sorry, before I get lynched ... my above post was of course a joke ! (humour is still allowed at our airline - although it is under review)

I'm on 737's with a UK low cost carrier, and we have lots of female pilots (captains and first officers). At my base alone, we've had 4 internally promoted female captains in the past 18 months.

I boarded one of our flights as a passenger recently ... as I walked down the airbridge, I was greeted with the sight of 2 slightly built attractive blondes (2 excellent pilots by the way) at the controls prep'ing for departure. There was a group of lads boarding in front of me ... you can imagine the rest.

No reason at all whay women can't do the job - it just appears that more women than men choose not to do the job.

[misho1212]

oohh nooo another emty kitchen;)

[Ayay299]

Hi

I am a 42yr old female looking to change career and interested in pursuing pilot studies. Before committing to enroll into the ATPL programme, I am trying to weigh the pros and cons.

The pro is that I would have a career I love and feel satisfied with (as it was something I wanted to do when I was younger).

The con is my age and the anxiety that I will struggle with employment due to my age and gender. By the time I am done studies I will be 45 and that gives me 15 or 20 yrs of work at best

Most advices I received were from men I was told that it is a hard road ahead of me but not impossible. Some men had shifted careers in their fourties and became first officers right after completing their studies. However I would like to hear from women as that relates better or closer to my situation.

Would like advice from women who:

1. started studies in their fourties - what was your employment journey like

2. are currently in their 50s or 60s - have you had issues with employment at that age or do you believe the industry would likely favour a 50 or 60 year old man over a woman of the same age

Thanks