EC 135 Type Rating

[MakD]

Morning Gents,
I have read through the 'you want to be helicopter pilot' thread and its really good, packed with advice etc.
But what I want to know is do you have to start on pistol helicopters?
Next year Im looking at doing my rotary PPL and I have the money to spend so I'd rather if it was possible do my entire course right up to Commercial in a turbine helicopter ie the 135.
I realise this might not be practicle or possible but I really will do all I can do avoid going down the piston route, to be honest I don't feel safe in a R22/44. No offence to anyone intended just my feelings on it.
So... Do I 'have' to start on Piston heli's or is there somewhere I can go to do a turbine coarse??
Thanks guys, and sorry for bothering you
Gareth

[md 600 driver]

gareth
its all down to costs, in the r22 or other piston the costs are lower but if you wanted to learn on a turbine there would be no problem however on a 135 as its a twin there may be problems depends where in the world you train

i would expect that the costs to train in a 135 would be in the region of 12 times the cost of a r22 and if you could afford to pay that much money you may find that being a commercial pilot would not bring enough cash rewards

best of luck with your training you will now get everyone elses views on this and we dont all agree all the time but we may on this ?

steve

[Whirlybird]

You can certainly learn on a turbine helicopter if you want to. Quite a few schools have JetRangers, and it's not at all unusual to learn on those.

The trouble with learning on the EC135 is that it's a very complicated machine. It's twin-engined, and also has a glass cockpit...and I'm pretty sure this is standard. This means that there is a huge amount of information to absorb, apart from actually learning to fly it.

Your best bet might be to learn on the single-engine EC120, which is fairly similar, but a lot simpler. You ought to be able to find one or two of those around, though you might have to travel a bit to learn. Conversion from that to the EC135 ought to be relatively easy.

I'm not an expert on either of these machines, though I've flown them both to write flight test articles for Today's Pilot magazine. But you may well get a more detailed answer from someone with more experience on these helicopters.

Finally, some of us on here aren't "gents" - we belong to the other half of the human race. ;)

[jayteeto]

Not sure what the going rate for a 135 is on private training, but with instructor, fees and fuel, it must be edging towards a grand an hour. There are a hell of a lot of good types available beftween your extremes of R22 and EC135. Buy Pilot magazine, look in the back and start ringing around. As money seems to be no problem, a phone bill won't affect you much. Lots of turbine helicopters available at much better rates and easier to fly as well!! Anything from Jet Ranger to EC120 will be fun. I am sure you will get a few schools on this thread advertising their 'wares' through an intermediary (just like labour party funding). A turbine student stating publicly that money is no problem could pay a lot of their bills this winter!

[FloaterNorthWest]

MakD,

It is hard enough as a rated EC135 pilot to get a machine to do training on, so unless you known an owner who will let you use their machine (a couple in the NW) for the entire course I think you will struggle to get hold of one. Insurance may as add to the cost. You will also need a FTO with EC135 on its books and an available FI. About as available as an EC135 to train on. If you want twin training the AS355 would be a better option as there are lots around and FTOs will have them on their books and FIs available.

My advice would be to train on the Jetranger which is cheaper and simpler. It will also teach you to be a more considerate pilot due to its limitations.

I used to teach basic students on the AS350 and it was simply too powerful and stable for them to develop an understanding of limited power and flying smoothly to conserve power.

Good luck with your training.

FNW

[skadi]

As far as i know, its mandatory to train on a helicopter, which is capable to do touchdown autorotations. For this reason in Germany the federal police and the armed forces are not using the EC 135 as initial training helicopter. As mentioned by other collegues, the 135 is also too complex for basic training. If money is not the limiting factor, a light turbine like the 120, B 206 etc. would be fine.

skadi

Info for whirlybird:
the glasscockpit in the 135 is not standard, its an option.

[s61Oneday]

While it is not mandatory to learn to fly on a piston engined machine, it is effectively mandatory for many - cost being the limiting factor.

Anyone with the funds available to train all the way to CPL in an EC135 would be looking at a different machine for ab initio training and then an IR after the CPL.

Before you completely rule out piston-engined training perhaps you could consider the Schweizer 300CBi. This machine is very stable, capable of full down autos and (relatively speaking) widely accessible. It is one of the more popular training machines worldwide and a damn sight cheaper to run than EC135!

Good luck and enjoy your training.

[Francis Frogbound]

I look after 2 EC135s and have plenty of time in the 120. I don't know about anyone else, but our insurers would have a fit if we offered ab-initio training in the 135 and I think the chaps at the Belgrano may have a few words about it as well.

Wet rate on the 135 £ 1350 + VAT per hour, rather a lot of cash up to CPL level, let alone PPL.

The 120 is lovely, but I don't know of anyone operating one on a TRTO. If you want to go the turbine route from the start then go 206, just make sure there is an intensive care bed availlable for your bank manager when you tell him the cost!

FF

[md 600 driver]

training in the gazelle would be a option fun as well

[Helinut]

Frankly, you would be mad to do ab-initio on something as complicated as an EC135. Forget this idea. If you want to do it in the UK, and I suspect in all JAALand too it will not even be possible.
1. You won't be able to find an aircraft cos no one will want to hire one to you for that purpose. The reasons why have largely been covered by others.
2. It is not a good idea for you anyway. You are better learning the basics on a basic machine. You won't be able to do a number of essential air exercises on an EC135. It is also MUCH more complicated than a normal machine used for training. For basic training the complexity will also just get in the way of the things you need to learn.
3. I am not even sure if it would be legal. I am not going to bother to check but there is (if my memory is correct) some sort of ban on training on twins without 70 hrs P1 or total time or whatever (under JAR).
4. It will be incredibly expensive. Your financial wedge would be much better spent on making sure you had a good instructor and paying him/her a bit over the odds.
The process of getting to be a useful CPL (or a safe PPL(H)) requires the acquisition of experience beyond the basic licence. Do your licence on something simple. Then get some structured training on say a single turbine. Do some specialist courses like mountain flying, load lifting. Go to far flung corners of the globe and fly there.
You can learn on something like a JetRanger, an EC120 or other straightforward single turbine. I have done PPLs on a JetRanger, but I really would not recommend it. Better to do your initial on say a Schweizer 300 and then follow it up with a GOOD SE turbine conversion.
Helinut

P.S. I missed one other thing - you will miss a whole load of fun and knowledge that you would gain by gathering experience in a wide variety of types of heles

PPS If you are that rich, I will give up my EC135 job and take you through from start to finish :)

[thwock]

LASORS 07
applicant for the issue of a first type rating for a
multi-engine helicopter shall:
a. hold a certificate of satisfactory completion of a
pre-entry approved course in accordance with
Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.255 to be conducted by
a FTO or TRTO or have passed at least the
CPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations in
accordance with JAR-FCL 2.470; and
b. have completed at least 70 hours as
pilot-in-command of helicopters in accordance with
Appendices 1 and 3 to JAR-FCL 2.240.

a) only one company in the UK has an approved course (or so i'm told)
b) need to get 70 hrs P1 first .PPL(h) + probably 60 hours solo.

If you do go the Jetranger EC120 route PLEASE check the school has permission to train on "helicopters with more than 4 seats and Turbine engines

[MakD]

Thanks guys/and girl ;)

Totally blown away by the response, honestly thank you very much for taking the time to point me in the right direction.

After some thought I'm going to go down the EC120 route, so I ll start looking for somewhere local to well...Scotland to do it. Not heard of any schools in Scotland that have EC120 trainers.

I'm looking at getting started around April/May I might even set up a little website tracking my progress etc, so I ll let you guys/and girl know how things go.

My ambition is to get through the CPL course and get a job flying EC135s somewhere, but I don't know what the demand is for pilots but this country being as full of opportunities as we all know it for, there are probably no demand for 135 pilots and more than likely a waiting list to even get seen for a interview..... No justice anywhere.

Helinut.
Unfortunately I'm not that rich yet .... However I'm working on it ;) Expect a phone call though, this time next year I'm looking at spending about 10k a month on training and if I've got pleanty to go around I'll defo take you up on your offer ;)

Take care

[206Fan]

I'm looking at getting started around April/May I might even set up a little website tracking my progress etc, so I ll let you guys/and girl know how things go.

My ambition is to get through the CPL course and get a job flying EC135s somewhereIm hopeing to get started round may aswel, me and a friend are going out to land down under to do the PPL on the S300 hopefully then transition onto the CPL if all goes well.. My ambition is to get flying a super puma but im not too keen on overshore flying so might never get near one, beautiful machine thou and so is the 135!

Regarding the website thats a good idea actually, you should do that, might even do that meself when i get started!

All the very best with the training:ok:

[Hedski]

HJS helicopters in Peterculter near Aberdeen do PPL(H)'s, CPL(H)'s and have an EC120. That's the only one north of the border.
As for EC135 jobs, all corporate one's in mainland UK are gone but there's a hell of a lot of 135's in Germany and Austria doing many different things.
Best of luck.:ok:
H

[helicrazi]

I believe the Helicentre in Liverpool operate an EC120, maybe a little bit south for you though

[timex]

Why not try the USA for your initial training and hours building, ISTR that a few FW schools out there operate to CAA regs, maybe a RW setup somewhere?

[Twin Head]

It is good to see young aspirations of new pilots with aims looking allready to flying the twins. The offshore market will be pleased.

Helimut, nice reply.

10 years ago insurance did allow twin abinitio training, today is a different story. If i recall the people who did this training had a ppl fixed wing, then whent straight to ME Helicopter.

Cheers
TH:D

[Helipolarbear]

Especially considering the €-£-$ exchange rate. Now IS the time to go WEST!!! HAI are still one of the best! (So I'm told):)

[nigelh]

I have some concerns about you . You are old enough arent you ? It just sounds like you are a 10 year old with a stupid idea :D There is no point whatever in training in a turbine , it will just make you a worse pilot. I suggest some research before you waste your money .

ps i will train you in my Agusta 109 if you like for £1,000 per hour .....:ok:

[Whirlygig]

Training in a turbine seems to be good enough for the RAF! :}

If the guy can afford £600 per hour for a 200 hour course (to CPL), then why not!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[cjbiz]

MakD - check your PMs

Biz

[Helipolarbear]

Whirls..........You The Lady!!! I agree, but also Nigel.........stop being such a BA PLANKDRIVER.......Dude!!! Everyone who learns to fly...Heli's, Planks....Space shuttles and Micromovers........deserves our encouragement!:cool:

[Whirlybird]

Everyone deserves encouragement, agreed. :ok: However, with the greatest of respect, MakD, I'm wondering if you need a reality check. :( Or maybe just a little more reading of the threads with the basics of this industry.
My ambition is to get through the CPL course and get a job flying EC135s somewhere

When you have your CPL, you will probably have around 200 flying hours. As I wrote recently in an article, a CPL(H) and 200 hours is about as much use as a degree in Medieval Mongolian - ie, it sounds impressive, but no-one will give you a job without more experience.

That may apply ever so slightly less if your hours are all turbine ones, but 200 hours is still nothing, whatever it's in. You'd need to do lots more hour building, and/or get an instructor's rating, and/or get an IR and go to the North Sea or similar, and/or go and fly abroad. I think I'm right about this - if I'm not, someone will tell me soon enough. ;) I know this would be the case if your hours were on R22s or similar, bu I've never run into anyone who's doing it your way. But I do know, from experience, that with 200 flying hours you know bugger all, even though you think you do and it's cost you a shedload of dosh. Sorry, mate, but that's how it is. :(

Still, if you have the money, why worry. And if you fancy getting the hours doing something interesting like flying round the world in an EC135, and need a co-pilot/navigator, don't hesitate to let me know. ;)

[ROTORVATION]

Have been advised by one of the instructors that Helicentre Blackpool will be operating a EC120 by the end of January next year.

Brand new one I think!

[nigelh]

Whirlbird . I,ll put a tenner on it that he,s either a nutter or 13 yrs old !!!!
I,m all for encouraging people but " i want to be a 135 pilot when i,m older " seems a tad on the "simple" side .:uhoh: I would alo say that if he is offended by this then he definitely is heading into the wrong profession .
Of course you can learn on anything but the art of flying within a small power range , throttle control etc can only help make you a better pilot. Who knows , one day you may need to modulate the throttle yourself on your turbine and your previous experience on pistons will be invaluable .
Having said that i may be totally wrong.....:rolleyes:

[GoodGrief]

nigelh

You're 100% correct.

[Curtis E Carr]

From nigelhThere is no point whatever in training in a turbine , it will just make you a worse pilot.
Absolutely! Just look at all those shoddy military pilots who can't even spell "R22" let alone fly one. Quite disgraceful!

[MakD]

Wow!!

Came on for some advice and got shot down in flames!!

Nigel, no I'm not offended but thanks for trying :) If you really want to know I'm a 23 year old recruitment consultant and I'm pretty good at my job. This means luckily for me I clear at least 14k every month infact in August I made 60k. This year I have paid more in tax than you probably get paid net.

I certainly don't think my idea is stupid, I have money to spend at the end of the day rather than just watching the numbers go up or buy more property I'd like to fly in a turbine helicopter. Sorry about that guys next time if I ever have any aspirations to do something I've wanted to do since I was a kid I'll be sure to run it past you lot first.

You people need to have a good hard look at yourselfs, if I had the time which I don't I'm willing to bet if I do a search on a couple of you I'd find pleanty of threads with you belittling people who come onto here looking for advice.

Don't get me wrong I still have respect for all of you even you Nigel, at the end of the day you guys have worked hard to get where you are and I respect that. However I do think you should give yourselfs your own 'Reality check'. Why are you talking to me like this? You have no idea who I am or what I'm like and yet your pretty happy to try and make me look like a total idiot infront of the people you reguarly converse with!
''Oh look luv another idiot with a ''I wanna be a pilot idea'' he'll get no where'

Remember when you were first starting out in your training? When all you wanted was some helpfull advice and a bit of encouragement, and you would always come across some arsehole who would try to put you down or make you feel like your dreams are a funny joke..... Thats who your looking at in the mirror.

Wake up and help people, there are to many horrible things and people in this world without you having your 2cence. Trust me you'll feel better about yourself ;)

Thank you to everyone who actually had something constructive to say and point me in the right direction, but I don't think I will bother coming back on here. But I wish you all the best of luck and hope Santa is good to you all and your family

Take care

Mak D

[Whirlygig]

MakD, you're right about one thing :}


bet if I do a search on a couple of you I'd find pleanty of threads with you belittling people


If you stick around (as I did after a bit of a lambasting on one of my very first threads), you'll find you'll get to know who's who. It's a small world and many of us know each other personally. This is a business in which you cannot afford to make an enemy. Now whilst some here have been scathing, there are some who have given very good advice even though it's contrary to your initial game plan. I would recommend you heed it.

Many of the pilots on here are ex-military and so haven't been through the same training path as civilian-trained pilots. Others, like me, are doing it the very hard way with no where near as much of an income as you. We are just thinking of your wallet.

However, please consider that there are more makes of helicopter than EuroCopter. If you want a career as a pilot, you may not get to pick and choose which type you fly. Therefore, I would recommend you fly a more common type. In addition, the school you go to and tuition you receive is more important than the type on which you learn.

Also, if you don't learn on a piston, you'd never find work as an instructor. Therefore, your only option would be an instrument rating which will cost around £30k in itself.

Some of the world's best and most experienced pilots are here; also a few idjits - if you're in recruitment, you should be able to spot them. :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

MakD,

If you're that oversensitive, I don't know how you ever make anything as a recruitment consultant. Dealing with people I'd have thought you'd have learned...well, how to deal with them :confused:

Anyway, mate, you're over-reacting. Chill out for gawd's sake. You got loads of good advice. Then ONE person (nigelh) doubted you. Well, with the number of weirdos we get on here, is that so strange? And is it really a good reason to fly off the handle? If I upset you so much with suggesting you needed a reality check, then...I'll think of a more tactful way of putting it. But seriously, you don't get a CPL(H) and then a job, however much money you have or whatever you learn on - you just don't. You need more experience, the sort of experience you'll only get by serving your apprenticeship in this industry. That means instructing, or getting an IR and/or working on the North Sea, and getting to know the right people, and being willing to fly anything they'll let you. It means **** pay and being treated badly, far worse than anyone on here has treated you so far.

Do remember that I for one wouldn't post if I didn't want to help, and that goes for most people on here. But if you don't like it, we'll all shut up and leave you alone...possibly for ever!

[nigelh]

So...please Mr MakD. I would like to be Managing Director of Eurocopter . I currently earn over £1,000,000 a year so i think you will agree i am well qualified. Errr what do you mean you want me to run a little company first ...how dare you , its M.D. of Eurocopter or NOTHING. Can you fix it for me ?
You may not like what you hear but a) when it comes to paying for helicopters , espec EC 135 , you really aren,t earning enough and b) you cannot fast track and "buy" experience . I still really get the impression this is a fad and also that you have done very little research into the industry. What do you know about the Schweizer for training ? Have you spent £100 to have a go in one ? How many 135,s have you been in? If you wish to be the first person ever ( ?) to train in a 135 and then get a job in one then good luck but i would advise the tried and tested route that we have all taken ( except military !) Good luck and start thickening that skin ....it will be a tough ride and it is not a kind industry.:{
Adieu

[4ftHover]

MakD

Can i just ask if you are earning that sort of money why do you want to become a pilot ??? I doubt very much you will ever earn that sort of money flying for a living.

Keep your job and fly for pleasure at the weekends.

And there is no shame in learning in a piston, be it a 300 or R22.

Best of luck !

[delta3]

I would have expected more communication skill of a "recruitment consultant".

As said before, read some of the valuable advice given by some PPruners, could be really usefull, you know "they have been there".

But then again, I know of a kid taking a driving licence examination with a Bentley. Nothing wrong with that, but kind of weard to ask other people if that is the way to go.


d3

[Whirlygig]

But the kid taking his driving licence in a Bentley isn't going to use that as a basis for getting an HGV licence? Not entirely comparable.

However, I took my driving test in a Mini Metro (after a bike licence) and bought an Audi Quattro Turbo.

The difference is whether one is going to fly for pleasure entirely or fly as a career. If one flies for a career, then one has to be pragmatic and think about the best career options. Personally, if I can get through a helicopter aviating career without ever flying anything that requires carb heat, then I'll be happy but I also concede that that may not be possible!

Cheers

Whirls

[delta3]

I used a mini 1000, metro didn't exist yet...

d3

[Whirlygig]

Mini metro

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/675000/images/_678673_metro300.jpg

Mini 1000

http://www.britishcarclub.net/new%20mini.jpg

Well, I think that just about ages you and me eh? :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

[delta3]

O, the good old times, had only one engine, no FADEC, but great fun...

cheers, d3

[Whirlygig]

One has to confess that one did later own one of these:-

http://www.freedigitalphotos.net/image/s_mini-cooper.jpg

...and in BRG too! They were/are great fun!!

Hope MakkyD realises what fun and banter he's mssing out on!

So.... to draw out the analogy .... should anyone (whatever their age and income) learn to drive in a Mini or an Alfa Romeo 3.0 GTV (240 bhp!)

http://www.meinekarre.de/cars/Alfa_GTV_3.0_24V_cuoreitaliano.jpg

Cheers

Whirls




Apologies for ending a sentence with a preposition but one hath had alcohol taken!

[delta3]

Great looking in BRG

d3

[jayteeto]

Good man!! Well done on the huge wages, I wish I earned that amount. Even so, don't throw your hard earned cash away needlessly, you really don't need to!! As said very early on, learn in a small single turbine. Not only is it cheaper/less complicated/available, but it will actually be more fun. Even to this day, after flying many many different aeroplanes and helos (currently a 135), my most satisfying and fun flying was in an RAF Gazelle. If you can't get one of them, a 120 or 350 seem pretty close. I opened my licence with jetranger, it was a bit sluggish but still ok. If the money you save per hour is still burning a hole in your pocket, then hire a limo to take you back and forward to the airfield each day, drinking vintage champers on the return journey.:ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

Anyone watched "secret Millionaire" ? Amazing things can and do happen, don't give up on them yet.



I have been told of an 18year old who got her driving licence on a Porsche 911 with the explanation "after all that is all I will be driving".

[delta3]

Brilliant Stuff

I know of at least 3 that recked their 911 machines, and 1 that didn't survive it....
My kids started with some heavy diesel car...

In the example you quote, isn't it sad she'll only know one car....

I really think that it is useful even necessary to go up the scale. I personally also think that this is necessary in the given case - EC135.

The economics are clear as many suggested.

Looking "at the please your self" part of it: Here I would say, try it and lets talk again next year... Again a reason not to start to fiercely.

d3

[Brilliant Stuff]

I could not agree with you more Delta3 about one should start at the bottom how else can you appreciate the top if all your references are based on the top. I mean how do you know you progressed etc.

911 I would not dream of buying one.

[gsa]

MakD

There is some very good advice in these last three pages. Forget the posts on cars any idiot can drive infact any idiot can fly but not everyone can operate an Aircraft safely. The 135 being a twin and having an advanced cockpit would give a workload that an inexperienced pilot would just not be able to cope with, remember flying the aircraft is the easy bit its the other bits that are the problem and until you can fly the aircraft as if second nature the more work load there is.

As has been said try to find someone that will give you some time on a Gazelle or similar, it will give you adequate power and is a wonderfully simple aircraft to operate but like all they can be a handfull.

Why a 135 anyway? the main operators in the Uk are Police and without being ex military you have little chance.

John