NAT JET 717 mishap

[Jetstarpilot]

heard a 717 in DRW has been written off? any more info??:eek:

[MinimaNoContact]

Hard... hard landing. Apparently rippled airframe... crew stood down. Havent heard the rest.

[RENURPP]

The right off part is not accurate, although it has been damaged. The engineers that are GOING TO inspect it will be the first to know, maybe even ahead of the PPRUNERS :eek::eek:

Is it unexpected? New inexperienced pilots, minimal training, inexperienced training Captains, no remedial training, Low morale?

It won't be the last while the swiss cheese holes are lining up!

[flyhardmo]

I think they need to make jets at tough as C152's to withstand the punishment of pilots still learning how to fly when they transition on to heavier aircraft straight out of flight school. During Flt school most guys are taught by low timers these days still learning a hell of alot themselves :ugh:

[kalavo]

I think they need to make jets at tough as C152's to withstand the punishment of pilots still learning how to fly when they transition on to heavier aircraft straight out of flight school. During Flt school most guys are taught by low timers these days still learning a hell of alot themselves :ugh:

As opposed to the old days, when most people's first twin job was also their first airline job in the RHS of a DC3?

But then you're probably right... the DC3 was probably even tougher than a 152 :)

[Lord Flashhart]

Wasn't you was it Renurpp?

Dill:ugh:

MA

[RENURPP]

It was me. :=


Thats life! :{

[ayampanas]

No! I'm Spartacus! :}

[Much Ado]

Now, if you don't take the hint I'll DELETE the whole thread.

Much Ado

[Lord Flattery]

In a nut shell.

Company CEO...ex engineer.
2IC and GM Airline Ops....ex engineer.
Chief Pilot/GMFO....not endorsed on type.
Head of Pilot Training....not endorsed on type.
HOT Cabin Crew....not endorsed on type.
Manager of CC....not endorsed on type.
Management Based in Adelaide.....no 717 ops in Adelaide.
On the line operational support.....poor.
717 operations manual.....bears little or no resemblence to actual aircraft operation.
Management objective 'Future Horizons'.....reduce Pilot wages,apply bond to all training.
Pilot applications withdrawn/interviews declined due to poor renumerance and expanding opportunities elsewhere.
Experience base of new hire Pilots...low.
Some recruits desperately pushed through endoresment/line training in order to fill slots.
Captains appointed as Training Captains with less than a 1000hr of Jet Command time.
Experienced Training/Captains over looked/resigned for/from training positions because they didn't suck up to HOT.
General moral of all employees low as a result of management push for 'Future Horizons'.
Management fall back to 'arse covering mode' as a result of failed 'Future Horizons' and threat of industrial action.
Little or no follow up training for those inexperienced Pilots that were rushed through to fill slots.

Surprise, surprise.......one bent airframe. :oh:

[Lord Flashhart]

CC - Spot on.
To the others (excuding RENURPP, at least you have a good sense of humour)
Come on, a heavy landing isnt anything to get too worked up about. Hey, I've even been known to do non greasers. Anyways, as long as noone was hurt and as long as it was some bent metal and pride so be it.
:eek::uhoh:
I think fellow Lord Flattery, has summed things up perfectly in the NJS camp.

[Capn Bloggs]

Talk about Swiss Cheese: it's harder keeping up with the posts that disappear from this thread than working out how the tail got bent...oops...

[speeeedy]

Come on, a heavy landing isnt anything to get too worked up about.

A bent airframe is more than just a heavy landing, much, much more.

The only other recent one I can think of was the Adam Air 737, a company no Australian aviation enterprise should ever have to be compared with.

[five dogs]

Captains appointed as Training Captains with less than a 1000hr of Jet Command time.

Actually, less than 1000 hrs jet total, more like 300hrs Jet and 100 hrs in command.
Whats the problem with that?? :confused:

He says the right things and hasn't done any hard landings him self, or has he? Maybe one or two. :eek:

Why should the HOT have to be current on type?
Why do you need manuals that are up to date?
Whats the matter with you guys, just do as your told and all will be fine RIGHT!!!:mad::mad:

[tio540]

Why is this thread being censored, and relevent posts being deleted? The aviation community deserves to know.

Here comes the liquid paper.

[flying-spike]

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/mcdonnell-douglas-md-80-crashes-on-landing/3243417730

Now that's heavy

[Captain Peacock]

Nothing that a bit of speed tape won't fix.

"Bite checked OK, please report further"

[cunninglinguist]

Lord Flattery
never have I seen a more accurate and informed post on PPRUNE.
You will now be banned for life:ok:

In all seriousness, the direction NJS has taken over recent years, this is getting off lightly.

[nig&nog]

was informed by mate at njs that the pilot in question was actually trained by their most senior pilot on that type, so looks like these things can happen to anyone. but it goes to show that with the experience pool drying up very quickly these things may become a regular occurence.

nog not nig

[Dr_Clowneus]

Everything else a side at NJS when told who was responsible there was no surprise. I've heard some horror stories recently about guys getting through VB checks, so it's not just NJS. It was just a matter of time with this one, if CASA is fair dimkum some heads might roll here. I feel sorry for the captain involved!

[Pharcarnell]

To be fair guys, the weather around here for the last few days has been seriously monsoon cr@p and this incident is NOT the only heavy landing that has happened, just the most speccy.
Glad all walked away from it.
Lot of second hand cheap 717 spares may be on the market soon???

[topend3]

the facts will all come out in the ATSB report eventually...

[Dogimed]

Are there any ex Ipec or Compass pilots flying these?

As I said.. Just curious...

Dog

[Jabawocky]

Surprised there are not a heap of pics here by now.:ooh:

How badly damaged is it?

J

[cunninglinguist]

As an aside, but I think an interesting question:

Will this be the big Qs first hull loss :rolleyes:

[Jabawocky]

Cunning........they are far more Cunning than that...."THEY" broke it not us will be the call from Q!

NJS are operating flights for Q, so they have a good chance of distancing themselves. Of course if it hits the TV with a red tail it may well be harder to convince the public. After a few months though the record will still stand and the masses will forget:}

J

[Capt Kremin]

You are showing your ignorance there. Qantas has had hull losses before and will probably have hull losses again.

Is NJS part of QF? Doubt it...

[Jabawocky]

Quite correct Capt........I recall a Connie burnt to the ground off shore somewhere. Read about it in a mag not that long back!

How about Jet write off then?

J

[Capt Kremin]

No jet write off's but there is no reason to suppose that QF is immune from that. What's that? A Skygod mentioning the unmentionable?!!??!;)

[cunninglinguist]

Ok, for the slow ones out there;
QF own ( or if you like, lease ) the airframe, NJS operate it for them.
I was asking if technically speaking,this could be Qs first jet hull loss.
They have not lost a hull in the jet age nor for the last 57 years ( but who is counting )

Jabba, quite correct, but as you say, if it quacks like a duck .....:hmm:

[marty1468]

Hi Guys,

I've scanned al of the news including NT news and no mention of any incidents or accidents. Am i looking in the wrong place? I'm assuming DRW is Darwin even the the ersa code is YPDN

Marty

[aussie027]

If I recall correctly I read the B-744 involved in the over run accident at Bangkok years ago should probably have been written off but QF didnt want a recorded jet hull loss on the books so they spent over $100m repairing it.
They and the insurance carrier obviously did a deal.:hmm:

[jack red]

Marty I've scanned al of the news including NT news and no mention of any incidents or accidents. A hard landing is hardly newsworthy.

[marty1468]

A hard landing is hardly newsworthy

Possibly not but i would think a hard enough landing to write off (or nearly) an aircraft, especially one with the QANTAS logo on the back end would be newsworthy, even if QANTAS is not the operator.

[bushy]

The "big Q" has some of the most effective advertising and PR that I have seen. I think they are more influential than CASA, and they spend heaps in advertising. If you buy lots of advertising you can influence the media.

[Jabawocky]

Cunning,

thats Jaba with one b ...but who's counting:E

Seriously I have to agree with you.

if it quacks like a duck .....:hmm:
Its duck hunting season! :}:}

J:ok:

[Going Boeing]

The facts about the BKK over-run have been posted on PPRuNe many times but some people choose to ignore them and push their own agenda. The aircraft was insured for US$187m, repair cost US$96m, therefore it is obvious - no deal done with the insurance company.

Can anyone advise the Wx conditions at the time of the B717 heavy landing?

[chrisb74]

It's in the ATSB database, although there's little information. It was VH-NXE

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200800641.aspx

"On final approach the aircraft entered an area of high sink and made a heavy landing. Wrinkling was later found in the aft fuselage. The investigation is continuing."

[Groaner]

Crikey reported it today:

Qantas Boeing 'wrinkled' in hard landing in Darwin

Ben Sandilands writes:

Qantas is in damage control this morning trying to hide a Qantaslink Boeing 717 that was so severely damaged in a hard landing at Darwin last Thursday that it may be a write-off.

No reports, no photos, no survivor interviews, indeed no recognition of any sort has appeared in the media for almost four days. No-one was injured in the "incident" that dared not show its face until an inquiry into it was officially listed on the air safety data base today.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau says it is investigating the incident which happened in a jet configured with 115 seats and flown by National Jet under contract to Qantas.

The air safety investigator says on its website that "On final approach the aircraft entered an area of high sink and made a heavy landing. Wrinkling was later found in the aft fuselage. Damage: Substantial".

Hundreds of jets enter areas of high sink every day worldwide. And with rare exceptions, they don’t "wrinkle" or end up being rebuilt or scrapped.

ATSB investigations like these look clinically at pilot experience and the training and checking procedures of carriers, as well as factors flight crew are required to deal with, such as wind shear or degraded engine performance that might have affected this flight.

If the damage leads to a write-off it will be the first time this has happened to any passenger jet of size in Australia.

There were 11 Boeing 717s in the Qantaslink fleet.

[genex]

Let's not beat around the bush. QF 1 at BKK was a write off. End of story. Looks like this 717 might be too. And they came awfully close to losing a 737 landing into a microburst at Brisbane. And another 737 near Church Creek. So they are simply normal....for whicch read fallible......and normal mess-ups happen to all sorts of airlines. Pride does not help in prevention.

[Capt Kremin]

Are you dim, Genex? Or simply refusing to let cold hard facts get in the way of that barrow you are pushing?

[Capt Claret]

I find it interesting that so many can claim so much having seen so little.

I doubt that the manufacturer has seen it yet, to make an assessment, maybe they shouldn't bother attending and just read PPRuNe then tell QF what to do. :ugh:

[Kiwiconehead]

A hard landing is hardly newsworthy.

No crocs involved - no chance for the NT News.

No-one really cares who did it, everyone has a bad day - we just want to see some pics of the muntage!

C'mon - show us your wrinkles!

[Capn Bloggs]

The pics I've seen, Claret,would make anybody's forehead crinkle...:=

[Lord Flashhart]

I hope the F/O who was flying at the time does not get punished in anyway shape or form for this. She was a victim of the seriously deficient training department headed up by Fivedogs in Adelaide. NJS has a history of implementing unfair trials followed up by unfair hangings.

[Mr.Buzzy]

4 bars means........"It is my fault"

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[max autobrakes]

And if that's the result Buzzy, I have heard no more take-offs and landings for F/O's so as to prevent this sort of thing from occuring again.
Oh bugger, that might end up being a bit more expensive than actually spending money on training to a standard rather than to a cost,a cost that is calculated that self funded applicants can afford!:eek:

[powersfasher]

Be looking forward to reading the full story in the ATSB report. Perhaps the F/O wont be getting such a quick command after all.

[MIss Behaviour]

Mr Buzzy

4 bars means........"It is my fault"

What about the cheer up, gear up incident out of CNS awhile back? Thought the F/O was the fall guy in that instance.

[Hoofharted]

Is it just me or is there anybody else out there that thinks that this is actually quite a serious matter? A potential hull loss and it seems to be a great source of mirth. I'm not getting into a finger pointing exercise or trying to crystal ball the events leading up to the fact, but geez, everyone seems to be shrugging their shoulders and saying c'est la vie :sad:

[Capt Claret]

Maybe the time to take it seriously Hoof, is when the investigators have finished their job and some facts are known, rather than based on the speculation of the voyeurs of PPRuNe.

[Continue Approach]

The incident has come up on as a headline on the NT News web service this morning. Other news services will probably pick it up in the coming days. I wonder if pax comments will now start to emerge.

I also wonder how far this incident was from a crash, rather than a hard landing.

[virgindriver]

from the NT News.


Qantas jet written off after NT landing
PHOEBE STEWART

12Feb08

A $35MILLION Qantas jet is believed tohave been written off after a "heavy landing" in Darwin.

The Boeing 717 jet bumped down at Darwin airport on February 7 after flying from Cairns via Nhulunbuy.

None of the 84 passengers were hurt and they were able to "disembark normally" from the plane, the airline said yesterday.

A report said the Australian Transport Safety Bureau had listed the incident on its air safety database and had described damage to the plane as "substantial".

It said the Bureau reported the plane entered an area of "high sink", forcing it to land heavily, "wrinkling" the aircraft's fuselage.

But spokesman Geoge Nadal denied the information had come from the Bureau.

He confirmed that the heavy landing had been reported and was under investigation. An air safety expert is due to arrive in Darwin soon.

Mr Nadal said the outcome of the investigation would depend on the "complexity" ofthe incident.

Qantas said it could not comment on whether the plane had been written off but said the aircraft was out of action.

Qantaslink general manager of regional airlines Narendra Kumar said the flight - operating as QF1944 from Cairns - was being investigated in consultation with Boeing and National Jets Systems, which operated the aircraft on behalf of Qantaslink.

He said the incident had been reported to air safety authorities.

The QantasLink jet is one of 11 in the Territory's fleet of 717s, operated by NationalJet Systems.

[virgindriver]

and from today's Australian:

QANTAS'S jealously guarded reputation for never having lost a jet aircraft is under threat following an accident involving a Boeing 717.

The Qantaslink jet carrying 84 passengers from Nhulunbuy was substantially damaged when it landed heavily after a sudden loss of altitude as it came into land in Darwin last Thursday.

The heavy landing produced wrinkling in the aircraft's skin at the rear of the fuselage, suggesting possible damage to the airframe and prompting speculation that the plane is a write-off.

Although the leased aircraft was operated for Qantaslink by National Jet Systems, a write-off would be the first under Qantas colours.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau, which is investigating, yesterday described the damage to the aircraft as "substantial".

However, an ATSB spokesman was unable to say last night whether the aircraft could be repaired.

"There have been engineers called to inspect the aircraft, but whether it's a write-off or whether it's reparable I don't think is known," he said.

Qantaslink issued a short statement confirming the Boeing 717 operating from Cairns via Nhulunbuy to Darwin was involved in a heavy landing. It said there were no injuries, and passengers disembarked normally.

"The incident is being investigated in consultation with Boeing (and) National Jet Systems, which operates the aircraft on behalf of Qantaslink," Qantas group general manager regional airlines Narendra Kumar said.

"As required, the incident has been reported to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority and the ATSB."

Asked whether the aircraft would be written off, a spokeswoman said: "The investigation is under way and we've got to await the outcome."

The airline has an enviable reputation for air safety. A move to repair a Boeing 747-400, which ran off a runway in Bangkok in 1999 costing about $100million, was widely seen as a move to protect that record.

[Capn Bloggs]

Now if it had been a REAL aeroplane, it would've survived unscathed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5prz1Ae5QM

[Its the Pleats]

OMG! Or have I just been suckered into thinking a movie, that everybody else knows is a fake, is real?

[Capt Wally]

Crying out loud that was one heavy ldg !!! Amazing stuff:bored:




CW

[airtags]

Bushy [quote] The "big Q" has some of the most effective advertising and PR that I have seen. I think they are more influential than CASA, and they spend heaps in advertising. If you buy lots of advertising you can influence the media.

Bushy - maybe a few Executive Demi Gods at Q would like to believe that but I can tell that it just doesn't happen - certainly not in the news organisations I used to occaisionally work in.

The non coverage is largely due to the fact that the media in DRW (like many places) generally is a little slow to react and typically are waiting for the media release or someone else to cover it.

Also the media itself has changed over the years and hence doesn't always understand the scope of a story, let alone the need to accurately gather the material and test the facts - look at some the reactive nonsense recently reported about Heathrow & QF2.

Aside from the 'who, what, where, how' with the 717 in DRW, the important part of the story will be the 'why'. ...... and then the task for the media will be to test the evidence, and only then, be in a position to professionally challenge the airline's position (or non position as it generally tends to be). In the absence of tested facts you just can't make it up.....but of course some do (and will).

As for Q being professional in its media handling I and many others would disagree...... .....like a Safety Management System you can choose to operate in either reactive, proactive or predictive modes. Q generally struggles to move beyond reactive and that's why it has copped such a kicking recently.

Anyone know what the Wx was in DRW?

[RENURPP]

Capt bloggs,

i bet the passengers still got off and said "nice landing" as they do in the 146!!!

Thats pretty much how four dogs and the admiral do it.

[blaster666]

Apparently - this is what one passenger thought.

Passenger not happy with airline response to hard landing

Posted February 12, 2008 13:08:00

Map: Darwin 0800 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-12.4668&long=130.8433&caption=Darwin 0800)
Related Story: ATSB investigating Qantas incident (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/11/2159812.htm)
A passenger on a Qantaslink flight who went through a very hard landing at Darwin airport last Thursday says the crew didn't check if the passengers were alright.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the accident that happened when the Boeing 717 jet flew into a "high sink area" and dropped quickly.
The safety bureau report says substantial damage was caused when it hit the runway, including wrinkling of the back section of the plane.
Carol Jobson was one of 84 passengers.
She says everyone on the aircraft was shocked and silent.
"While I understand you can have a rough landing, (I can't understand) not inquiring about how people were after that landing.
"The captain came on and said that he was sorry for the bumpy landing, that there had been some wind shear and most of us that had flown a lot just looked at each other.
"I don't think any of us believed it."

[727ace]

better start painting over the roo as it may be a hull loss or maybe can rebuild as done in BKK:ok:

[strobe12]

here is a link to some pics of what happens when u plant a B767 on it nose wheel after a bounce, 11G http://www.yulaviation.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8210bugger

[Hoofharted]

Maybe the time to take it seriously Hoof, is when the investigators have finished their job and some facts are known, rather than based on the speculation of the voyeurs of PPRuNe.


Hmmmmm ok then, I wont take a 777 landing short of a runway seriously or take a 737 running off the end of a runway and killing people seriously as neither of these incidents have had a final investagitive report tabled yet. "Chr1st on a bike", you've gotta wonder sometimes! :ok:

[APMR]

Re the footage linked to by Capn Bloggs of the 146 having a heavy landing:

The footage is real and is of a Crossair RJ100 landing on runway 28 at London City.

A whole thread, including photos of the damage and press reports covering the repair effort, can be found here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=289698

The aircraft was badly damaged but was repaired and flown out about 4 months later.

[Zeke]

APMR,

That is not the aircraft in the video, the one in the video while looking extreme seems to have got out of it without damage. The one that was damaged had the Star Alliance livery, not Swiss (as on that video).

I think BA have damaged more aircraft at LCY than any other operator, all 146/RJ aircraft.

[APMR]

Zeke,

My mistake. Perhaps the heavy landings at London City involving 146-like aircraft are a lot more common than I thought.

I did read something somewhere about a Crossair 146-like aircraft having one at that airport, and the video may well be of that incident. I will try to find that info.

[RENURPP]

the one in the video while looking extreme seems to have got out of it without damage.

How did you determine that?

By watching the video or you have agreater knowledge of that incident?

[Jabawocky]

What!!!!!!!

PPRUNE and no pics of an alleged wrinkled 717!

What on earth is the world coming to?:uhoh:

J:E

[capt.cynical]

Maybe thier is nothing to photograph.:eek:

[vh_ajm]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of windshear alerting does the 717 have? For those who asked what the wx was doing, apparently there were storms in the area.

I notice the ATSB has labelled the occurence category as an accident, so someone is taking it seriously. Having seen the photos, I would be.

Any truth to the 'Captain only for T/O & LDG' rule (reported here on Prrune)?

[Lord Flashhart]

VH-

717 has both predictive and reactive Windshear systems.

Any truth to the 'Captain only for T/O & LDG' rule (reported here on Prrune)?

No. However knowing NJS, that may soon be the case.

[Moniker]

I understand that QF has a policy of no F/O driving for TKOF/LDG if wind is > 35knots ..

[rockarpee]

Xwind limit only. F/O 15 kts for 1st year since checkout then 20 kts.

[Van Gough]

Wow! Just as well the pilots both had their HSC's...could have been much worse:cool:

[blueloo]

They needed their HSC's to balance everyone elses chip on their shoulder............

[tio540]

The f/o also earns $20,000 less per year than any previous f/o.

[TechCons]

Damage is not as bad as first thought - NXE will be repaired. Some aft fuselage skin panels and longeron replacements required

[Going Boeing]

It won't be long before those with an anti-QF viewpoint will be accusing them of repairing the aircraft irrespective of the cost.

[Sid Departure]

I agree with Lordflashhart, Hoofharted and Capt Claret.
There seems to be too much rubbing of hands hoping it's true, rather than professional discussion.
If what has been rumoured is true, then the crew concerned must be guttered as any of us would be if we damaged an aircraft.
If you want a united pilot group then it's time to start acting like one. Show these guys/gals your support. If there are lessons to be learned from this, then it will benefit all of us.

[320/20]

Dr Clowneous you are joking n'est pas

CASA do something???

come on

why would they make a decision which might look like they are doing something. That might, in a court of law, appear as if they were involved and they might just be held liable for their actions.

what should happen is that they should be held accountable for their INACTIONS! CASA should be charged with culpable negligence for their inaction within the Australian aviation community during the past years.

also the NT News was asking in one of its columns just this Tuesday (12th Feb) for any pax on QF446 (shoot me if its the wrong flight number) to contact the paper for comment so it hasnt gone unnoticed.

[merlinxx]

SidB has made the only sensible post here, it could happen to you all, just wait, it'll come to you one day. Don't take the piss because the more you do, the sooner it'll happen to you!!!!!!!!!!

[APMR]

If there are lessons to be learned from this, then it will benefit all of us.


Their landing would have been at night and I assume they landed on Rwy 29 (due prevailing monsoonal conditions).

I am of the opinion that the apparent upslope of that runway presents quite a significant optical illusion at night.

Anybody else experienced that?

[PLE Always]

APMR

Their landing would have been at night and I assume they landed on Rwy 29 (due prevailing monsoonal conditions).

I am of the opinion that the apparent upslope of that runway presents quite a significant optical illusion at night.

Anybody else experienced that?


Yes, I might have been caught by that lip, during the day it was :}

[Going Boeing]

Steve Creedy | February 15, 2008
DUSTIN Hoffman's Rain Man can rest easy: Qantas will not have to write off a Boeing 717 involved in a heavy landing in Darwin last week.

The Qantaslink aircraft carrying 84 passengers from Gove was substantially damaged after it hit an area of "high sink" and dropped heavily on approach to Darwin on Thursday last week.

The heavy landing produced wrinkling in the aircraft's skin at the rear of the fuselage, suggesting possible damage to the airframe and prompting speculation that the plane was a write-off.

Although the leased aircraft was operated for Qantaslink by National Jet Systems, a write-off would have seen the first recorded jet airliner hull loss under Qantas colours.

A Qantas spokesman said last night the plane would not be written off, although estimates of the cost of repairs were still being done.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau and Civil Aviation Safety Authority have launched investigations into the accident.

CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said the authority was looking at the circumstances behind the landing.

He said there was no indication of anything untoward but said CASA wanted to get a handle on any issues in the shorter term rather than waiting for the ATSB report.

The last recorded Qantas hull loss was in 1960, when a propeller-powered Lockheed Super Constellation carrying 50 passengers and crew was destroyed by a fire after it ran off a runway in Mauritius. The aircraft's No3 engine lost power just before take-off, prompting the captain to abort.

Despite attempts by the crew to stop the plane, it did not decelerate as expected and it was still doing 40 knots when it left the runway.

It bounced over a low embankment, crashed into a gully and caught fire.

The passengers and crew escaped from the burning plane unharmed except for a woman who broke her ankle as she fell from the cabin door.

[Capn Bloggs]

CASA wanted to get a handle on any issues in the shorter term rather than waiting for the ATSB report.
That'd be a first.

[marty1468]

I am of the opinion that the apparent upslope of that runway presents quite a significant optical illusion at night.

Anybody else experienced that?

I know of a couple of F/A-18 drivers who blew MLG tyres due to that apparent upslope and a high sink rate at darwin upon arrival for Pitch Black 87. Imagine the sink rate required to do that to an '18 as they are designed for high sink rates for carrier landings. We presented said tyre (cut down and mounted) to said pilot as a memento.

[Dropt McGutz]

There's no consistency across the Qantas group. Mainline is subject to auditing. Mainline wanted to audit Jetstar but Jetstar management refused. Mainline audited the Dash 8 operation but did they audit National Jet? But the weirdest part is that Qantas mainline drivers are so thick that they require months of training for a command but Jetstar pilots are aces who require only several weeks. Not having a go at anyone just the inconsistent system that is set in place.

[blueloo]

Qantas mainline take longer, because there is NO training. Training department renamed themselves from checking department to make them seem like they are capable of training.

There is NO training in mainline (did i just say that twice now?) THe majority of Checkers in the "Training" department are incapable of training. Its do it yourself training. For some reason the section attracts the wrong people with the worng reasons to the job.

[RENURPP]

Blueloo

I think you will find that problem is not limited QANTAS, it is an industry wide problem.

[Alien Role]

Flight Standards / Checking Department, to Line Pilot.................
Are you interested in a C&T position?
LP... Uummm, not reeaallyyy, I don't consider I have sufficient experience on the aircraft yet.
It's a 10% pay rise..........
LP... I'll do it

Role on.......

[cunninglinguist]

Alien. from memory its 8% :rolleyes:
However you make a good point.
CASA/QF/NJS will do nothing or next to nothing about this and we will wait for the next :mad: up.

NJS had more FA injuries ( landing induced ) from that A/C than Impulse/Jetstar ever did, and never did a damn thing about it, its just a pity the CIA will once again walk away scott free, maybe we should change their name from CIA to Teflon.:ugh:

[RENURPP]

Cunning,
that may be true, how ever the FOQA records indicate that NJS has alot less heavy landings than Jetstar did have, and less than QF do have.
This was looked into due to the complaints.
The NJS F/A's, Pilots and passengers were used to the 146 and as you know there is a considerable difference between a bad landing in a 146 and a good landing in a 717 comfort wise.

Don't get me wrong I am not excusing the CIA, but I have looked at the FOQA results myself.

[flyitboy]

Remember a C&T pilot is no different/better than any line pilot, 'cause just prior to such a person taking up such a position that's exactly what they where ! Money is everything, dangle a big enough carrot in front of any pilot & most will say it's 'black when it's actually white' !!:bored:
Don't fool yourselves. We have all seen so called C&T's who are less than those they are supposed to be checking!



F

[Dog One]

Lack of instructional skills by Check and training pilots Australia wide is becoming increasingly evident.

[RENURPP]

Lack of instructional skills by Check and training pilots Australia wide is becoming increasingly evident.
Isn't that the truth. Unfortunately people with these abilities are out there, they just don't fit the "Yes Sir” mould required.

If you look at NJS as an example, not one Senior Captain from any base is in Training. (not commenting on checking, that is a completely different role) Very few if any training pilots have "instructional" experience.
Almost none of the current training pilots have previous "training” experience.
The majority are, or where when they started training, brand new Captains themselves.
Surely you would have to ask why, when there are so many experienced and senior pilots available.

Are the experience pilots considered that bad? Or is their a head problem in the CIA?

[Agent86]

ah Renuupp... you neglected to mention that two of your "senior" Captains withdrew from training at CNS and two from Perth were asked but declined the offer. Nothing to do with the "Yes Sir" mentality but no desire to train any more.

[Capn Bloggs]

no desire to train any more.
Hmm. I wonder why?

[RENURPP]

86,

You are correct, they did decline.
I don't believe they have "no desire to train anymore", that is rubbish, they may (probably)have an interest in training again if there were some changes at the top.
I think you may find they resigned out of frustration with the current shambles. 86 Email me if you don't have this info.
In fact I know at least two of them did.
Fix the shambles and they would be back.

[Zeke]

I saw on the news the aircraft owner, Allco Leasing is in a spot of bother at the moment (credit crunch). Does anyone think this may influence the fate of the aircraft ?

[Short_Circuit]

No, the QF cover-up squad will be digging deep into their pockets
to FIX the problem.:hmm:

[Chris Higgins]

Aw, C'mon guys! We haven't even seen a picture of the aircraft to see if it's as bad as that. Some years ago I saw a light aircraft that had been handled poorly in a shipping crate and the reconstruction of that aircraft made it one of the strongest and best built trainers at a flying school in Taree. I wouldn't have thought it possible until I saw the finished result. Some skin, fuselage stringers and new rivets here and there as well as some testing for cracks,whether it be dye or x-ray, or whatever they have come up since, the end result will quite possibly be a superior one to the point of OEM.

You can't make a good omelete without cracking an egg once in a while.

[RENURPP]

Unless you get up close there appears to be no damage.
It simply looks like a normal 717 .

[Chris Higgins]

Then perhaps the ol' saying, "Much a do about nuthin'!" comes to mind. At least they got it planted on the runway and not in the parking lot. C'mon guys, this is not a relevant thread. Let's close it and let the ginger beers to take it from here.

If the plane was that badly damaged, there would have been more in the way of bodily harm. Gimme a break!

[MASP]

From the DRW QF Club, on a Top End "Wet" Sunday afternoon, the aircraft in question looks quite serene, and intact (from such a distance), though there are a couple of guys poking about around in the region of its port engine.

[fergusdog]

Qf Engineer Said It Has A 18 Degree Bend In Body

[Capt Claret]

fergusdog, as one who HAS seen the aircraft, any suggestion of an 18 degree bend is more than fanciful, it's pure bulsh!t.

[Lord Flashhart]

fergus is probably referring to the wing sweep lol.

[Jabawocky]

18 degrees:eek: I know they build em strong but its likely 18 dgrees would have torn it half off! Sounds like BS to me.

1.8 degrees would be more like it, and that would be expensive enough.:ooh:

I am still amazed some ppruner has not shot a pic of it by now......I think thats the most amazing part of this whole thread.

J

[Capn Bloggs]

Nar, he got it wrong, the 18° is the new dihedral! :}:E

I am still amazed some ppruner has not shot a pic of it by now......I think thats the most amazing part of this whole thread.
I've got two, and you're not seeing either!! :E:D:ok:

[ITCZ]

I am still amazed some ppruner has not shot a pic of it by now......I think thats the most amazing part of this whole thread.

Not so amazing. Two reasons:

1. Its not particularly remarkable to look at. The goddamn thing has been sitting in full view on Bay 9 for almost 2 weeks. No extra security, no screens. It is maybe 30m from the emergency access gate where the plane spotters gather and take 'up close' pics of aircraft on the ramp. There were four 717's parked alongside each other last night. You would be hard pressed to pick which one was the damaged one unless you walked right up to it.

18 degrees? Fark, some people will believe anything!

2. NJS pilots have their faults and their squabbles, but we still have an esprit d' corps. We are not into getting our jollies by posting a pic of a mate's mishap, for the enjoyment of the deadheads, hangers-on, voyeurs and vultures that inhabit this forum.

[Capt Claret]

ITCZ



:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

the deadheads, hangers-on, voyeurs and vultures that inhabit this forum
Thanks for the compliment, Darling! :p

[ITCZ]

Thanks for the compliment, Darling! :p

I should say "high proportion of deadheads etc." There is still plenty of gold to be found here amongst the dross!

[Jabawocky]

ITCZ,bloggs, clarrie

I agree and commend..........Its just amazing the spotrsters have not had one posted yet.

J:ok:

[Ron Jeremy Porn Star]

Inside word...it hit the deck at 970 feet per minute...approx 3.5 g's.

I seem to recall an A340 hitting at similar force in Quito recently...that one was written off..

I've provided some quality info..so quid pro quo..let's see some photos....

[RENURPP]

If you want to see a photo go to airliners.com cause thats all it looks like.
Mate its parked on the apron, QF, VB, Jetpox, Tiger and all the GA operators that use the apron like AirNorth, etc see it every day. If there was anything to take a photo of I can assure you some one would have done it by now.
IT LOOKS LIKE A 717 parker on an apron.

Sorry if that spoils your evening. :hmm:

[Kransky]

I've provided some quality info..so quid pro quo..let's see some photos....
If your info was so good, why didn't he show you photos. Your a dweeb.
I seem to recall an A340 hitting at similar force in Quito recently...that one was written off..
What would you expect.

Airbus = plastic toy flown by dweebs.:yuk:

Douglas Twinjet from Long Beach, FA, USA = Ships of steel flown by men of iron :ok:

.

[dodgybrothers]

Long Beach FA eh, Californians will love that. Bag the airbus and Jetstar now, lets just see how many of you brave, what was it, Iron men come a knockin when the bases open up in Darwin and Perth!

[Kransky]

Sheyat, I meant to say CA, USA :ugh:

Dontcha aussies know when someone is taking your p!ss? Dodgybrothers, nice of you to offer, I got another made-in-USA ride, getting paid in greenbacks too, so thanks all the same. But I'll sure pass on that invitation to my old friends. Nice to know they will be welcomed when they take up those direct entry commands that will be on offer.

And weren't it those Jetstar girls and boys wrote "38 reasons a 717 is better than a 320" back in 2005?

Later.

[Zeke]

I seem to recall an A340 hitting at similar force in Quito recently...that one was written off..

That was at 9ft/sec or 1100ft/mn, (3g). The aircraft was not written off. The fate of the aircraft has not been decided, more than likely it will be repaired.

The hard landing made the lower articulation link of both MLG to break, abrupt derotation of both bogie beams, all thus caused all 4 MLG front wheels to burst. This damaged the the wiring looms of RH an LH boogie proximity sensors.

No fuselage damage. The major damage was to the gear/wheels, wing fuselage fairing, and pylon/engines of engine 1&2. The gear and wheels were replaced on site to move it.

To repair it back to flying condition, they will need all 4 engines looked at, two pylons replaced, and new fairings.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8374/copyofdsc09627jg0.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4151/copyofdsc09714nz9.jpg

[cunninglinguist]

Iron men come a knockin when the bases open up in Darwin and Perth!

Dodgy, I think you will find ( actually I know ) that some contributors here have already knocked, could explain comments like " jetpox " :hmm:

I got another made-in-USA ride, getting paid in greenbacks too

So, getting paid in greenbacks is a good thing :confused:
maybe in the 80s ;)

[Capn Bloggs]

9ft/sec or 1100ft/mn
So which one is it? :cool:

[loopsloops]

It is now looking VERY likely that the 717 is a write off meaning it is the very FIRST jet in Qantas colours to ever be written off… Not good

[RENURPP]

Cunning,
I wil put a months pay on the fact that you will never in the past or future find a resume to jetstar from me.

[Going Boeing]

It is now looking VERY likely that the 717 is a write off meaning it is the very FIRST jet in Qantas colours to ever be written off… Not good

I'd like to know how reliable your source is? GB

[Capn Bloggs]

Told ya they should've stuck with the "other" paint scheme :}:

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/987/qlinkhybrid400az0.jpg

[Hoofharted]

The rippling of the fuselage skin immediately aft of the ground light and fwd of the left hand wing root sticks out like bloody dogs balls. I have never come accross such parochial denial anywhere on this site. You can deny, deny, deny as much as you like, but this is an incident which illustrates flaws in th NJS system. Laughing it off and lambasting anyone who may believe this to be an issue is only adding more "holes to the swiss cheese". :ugh:

[RENURPP]

Hoof, take a photo and post it then. Pretty simple.

[Hoofharted]

Hoof, take a photo and post it then. Pretty simple.

Either that or you could take a walk over to it and have a look yourself. This is not about pointing a finger at any person place or thing, but a genuine desire to have a serious incident taken within the context it should be. We should all be open to learning from mishaps like this.

[squidward]

Saw it today being pushed backwards along echo across to the RAAF side of the airfield......(?)

[Jabawocky]

hmmmm..........TARGET PRACTISE PERHAPS....:}

J:ok:

[flightidleflat]

They're probably using the RAAF sheds to jack the aeroplane.......another great thing about NJS and Darwin.....no hangar that can fit 717's.

[Capn Bloggs]

TARGET PRACTISE PERHAPS
A nuclear bomb wouldn't dent a Maddog...:ouch:

[RENURPP]

another great thing about NJS and Darwin.....no hangar that can fit 717's

that has to be close to the most rediculous comment so far.

Qantas do not have a hangar that can fit a 737, let alone any thing bigger, how about Jetstar and Tiger.
Darwin is not a maintenance base for NJS.

It is the only base for Airnorth and they can't fit their aircraft in their one and only hangar.

With thinking like that, NJS should have hangars at Gove, Meekatharra, Kalgoorlie and a multitude of other ports.
QantasJetstar, Virgin and Tiger are going to be really busy building hangars worlwide.

I am not a big supporter of how business has been done but grow up and be sensible.

[topend3]

With thinking like that, NJS should have hangars at Gove, Meekatharra, Kalgoorlie and a multitude of other ports.

i dont think NJS fly to Meeka on a regular basis. i agree though. NJS had to do an engine change on VH-NXK last July at Newman and it was done on the apron...

[flightidleflat]

Darwin is not a maintenance base for NJS.

A little off the topic here i know, but why do NJS have a multitude of engineers based in Darwin, performing Daily's, defect rectification and scheduled maintenance on the 717's, if it isn't a maintenance base?

The Coast Watch Dash 8's based in Darwin, also operated by NJS....what are the engineer's doing to them?.....washing the windscreens? No, they're actually doing scheduled maintenance on them too......making Darwin a maintenance base for NJS, not that they can get the -300's in the hangar either.

Since when have Virgin, Qantas, Tiger, etc carried out scheduled maintenance in Darwin? Let alone NJS at outer ports like Gove, Kal, Etc. Darwin is an outer port for these larger operators, just as Gove is to NJS.

I would think it to be not too unreasonable to be able to hangar a 717, especially when there are at least 3 over nighting there most nights. I believe Airnorth are in the same boat, not being able to get the E170 clearly into the hangar either. What are they going to do when they have to jack that? Leave it outside in the breeze?

[Capn Bloggs]

at Newman and it was done on the apron...
Hey TE3, you call that an apron? My son's painting smok is bigger! :E

[Peter Fanelli]

Either that or you could take a walk over to it and have a look yourself.


What, you think we all live in Darwin?

[RENURPP]

Peter, I was responding to this particular comment The rippling of the fuselage skin immediately aft of the ground light and fwd of the left hand wing root sticks out like bloody dogs balls.
how do you think he knew this if there are no photos OR he wasn't able to see the aircraft in person.

Re the Darwin mainetence base in Darwin is CASA approved for Surviellance Aus. NOT the 717's. Same in Broome, same in Cairns, and if they had built a hangar in Horn isl for the islanders it wouldn't necessarily mean they could put a 717 in it, although it would need a hangar if it went there!!:eek:

[topend3]

Bloggsy,

don't tell me you haven't seen the new one going in next door...

[ITCZ]

Saw it today being pushed backwards along echo across to the RAAF side of the airfield......(?)

Simple answer. 10 RPT bays at Darwin. 2 undergoing works, unavailable. One overnighting E170 and four 717 parked on bays 6 to 10. Leaves three. "Rush hour" at 0100-0230 on Tuesday morning, JQ674 from Brissy has to wait 20 minutes for a parking bay. JQ ops ask Darwin Airport management "why is a dead 717 taking up space on a crowded apron?"

DIA says "NJS, move that 717." Choice: crowded Southern GA stand or near empty military hardstand.

Not particularly exciting, I'm afraid. No conspiracy. Sorry to spoil the fun.

[Lord Flattery]

Thats probably where it will stay if its going to get fixed...and probably if it doesn't.

ITCZ I thought you where banned from this thread?:oh:

[ITCZ]

If I've been banned I've not been told about it.

If I remember correctly, the mods chopped the inflammatory and insensitive posts prior to mine, and told those posters to take a hint.

Seems we have some slow learners here.

[Delay Approved]

Thats probably where it will stay if its going to get fixed...and probably if it doesn't.With PB08 not far away I think the RAAF may be asking for their hanger space back before too long.

[tio540]

Another flight crew pay cut should help pay for the damage. :rolleyes:

[bob55]

Actually 12 RPT bays, and only 1 undergoing works.

And there is no way they could get the 717 to the GA, it would destroy the taxiway. V is only rated to 22,000Kg.

[VH-Cheer Up]

The following photos and article were published in Crikey. I have no way of knowing if they are real, make up your own mind.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/cmbhome/JQ_DRW/NewPicture.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/cmbhome/JQ_DRW/NewPicture3.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/cmbhome/JQ_DRW/NewPicture2.png

Qantas gives new meaning to "bracket creep"

Ben Sandilands writes:

After giving 84 passengers a new meaning to the term "bracket creep" in a hard landing at Darwin on 7 February, exclusive images of the damage to the Qantaslink Boeing 717 have fallen from a passing jet in front of Crikey Towers.

The jet suffered extensive wrinkling or creep in areas of the fuselage rear of the wing, as shown in these images. A set of tyres also display impact-induced cracking of considerable magnitude.

The jet was hidden from public view by Qantas for days in a Darwin hangar and kept out of the general media until Crikey broke the story on 11 February.

At that time it was a candidate for being the first hull loss of a Qantas jet, or any jet airliner, in Australia. (Qantas "retired" and sold a bent Boeing 707 involved in a steep dive and recovery while flying between Bangkok and Bahrain in 1969.)

This now wrinkled jet was flown for Qantaslink by National Jet, the South Australian contractor currently having its pilot training and checking processes examined as part of an Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigation of the incident.

National Jet won the outsourced flight contract for its excellence and low bid and has been repeatedly endorsed by Qantas as meeting all of its safety and service standards.

The jet was supplied by Allco Leasing, an arm of the seriously compromised Allco Finance Group that was a party to the private equity bid so enthusiastically endorsed by Qantas before it went pear shaped last May, and once stood to participate in the proposed FleetCo spin off that was being pushed by the Airline Partners Australia consortium.

Qantas says the jet, worth about $35 million, will be repaired, rather than cashed out by insurance as a write-off. Industry sources say this might cost it more than $100 million, but pride in this case comes after a heavy fall, and the airline doesn’t want to score its first ever jet hull loss.

Those little wrinkles are going to require very costly cosmetic surgery to smooth out.

Qantas made a similar investment in rebuilding the Boeing 747-400 it punted into a golf course at the old Bangkok airport in 1999, which ripped off an engine, pushed the nose wheel up into a bulge that was punched into the middle of first class, and tore off the main gear.

The bill for those "repairs" is believed to have been well in excess of $100 million.

[Sunfish]

My guess is that a "truss" will be applied and the aircraft flown unpressurised to YMAV, where, in the fullness of time, it will be "decommissioned".

These are cheap aircraft. No one is going to bother fixing them.

Just an opinion.

[fender]

I noticed a couple of 717s sitting in adelaide with no engines.
Do a quick switch and rego change and vwallah..
Does anyone know how to spell vwallah?

[outback aviator]

do you mean the french "voila"?

[gav_20022002]

"The jet was hidden from public view by Qantas for days in a Darwin hangar and kept out of the general media until Crikey broke the story on 11 February."

eerr, im pretty sure i remember putting past this every day on the apron in one of the far bays directly infront of public viewing if they wanted to see it...not a hangar within 300 odd metres.

great story guys, done well, i will be sure to look for it under new relases in the fiction section of my local bookstore.....

[F.Nose]

The pictures are real.

[Capt Claret]

Actually, Elvis and Harold Holt, have both surfaced from their Russian bunker underneath Ayers Rock. They have trained in aircraft repair and will soon be seen in Darwin, beavering about a 717, making it ready to fly again. :zzz:

[Big Girl 727]

She's back on the civil side, with some shiny panels.

[permFO]

"Qantas made a similar investment in rebuilding the Boeing 747-400 it punted into a golf course at the old Bangkok airport in 1999, which ripped off an engine, pushed the nose wheel up into a bulge that was punched into the middle of first class, and tore off the main gear."

It seems that internet journalism is no better than the printed stuff when it comes to aviation. None of what was described as damage to the -400 is correct. A tip I was given in a previous job is that no journalist is your friend-no matter how "friendly" they may seem.

[nig&nog]

From mate at NJS said NXE due to fly later this week or next week to Adelaide. He said the McDonnell Douglas boys fixing the aircraft said that it is no way the worst they have fixed and with the solid airframe they have unlike current types it wont be a problem. It was mentioned that they spend more time running around fixing DC-10 freigthers then any other type.

Nig

[topend3]

Qantas made a similar investment

as this is an NJS aeroplane would they have been up for any associated repair costs and not QF?

[Skystar320]

Qantas is the lessee of the aircraft - therefore its them who pays for maintenance. Its NJS who wet lease's them to Qantas i.e supply's pulots / FA

It's complicated

[OZFURYFAN]

Hi All,NXE arrived in ADL last night,suggest that all who posted with rediculous comments like "trusses" need to get first hand info before posting.I had a good look at the aircraft after the landing and during repairs and it certainly wasn't at any stage unrepairable,the sad thing about this industry is the amount of experts in it .Regards,OZ

[Spotlight]

Smells a bit inside though. Did I say a bit, I mean't a Lot.

[Capn Bloggs]

Smells a bit inside though. Did I say a bit, I mean't a Lot.
Obviously haven't cleaned the seats yet...

[OZFURYFAN]

See what I mean about experts!!!!!The carpets were removed after they got mouldy wihin a week,all the seats came out for cleaning & storage & access for the repairs.Any pressurised aircraft will go mouldy quickly in the tropics especially if there is nowhere under cover to store it with the cabin open,OZ

[Hoofharted]

Chiropractic industry went through a sudden growth spurt back then too. Passengers were reported to be 3 inches shorter after disembarking. :p

[#1AHRS]

My guess is that a "truss" will be applied and the aircraft flown unpressurised to YMAV, where, in the fullness of time, it will be "decommissioned".

These are cheap aircraft. No one is going to bother fixing them.

Just an opinion.

One would like to think so, but Qantas has never written off an aircraft (or so they say to the world) and I guess they will keep it that way. So they will rebuild, even if they start with just a data plate..

[Capn Bloggs]

Hey Furyfan, take a chill pill and calm down with a ride in your Fury. We're just having a bit of fun. It is called National Joke, is it not? :E

[OZFURYFAN]

HI bloggsy,I'm chilled but I'm too busy fixin' what you buggers are breakin' to go flying!!!!JOKE it is:Ocheers,OZ

[Cloud Whisperer]

Oz
While you're making repairs from that "landing", could you find your way to the other NX_'s and make the light covers more resistant to the other interesting landings they get :oh:
Spine manipulation not required after being donged on the head by a light cover ;) (passengers are becoming more adept at refitting them now)

Cheap aircraft indeed!! What a joke :(

[OZFURYFAN]

I'm with you on that one CW,but thats how we guage the severity of the landing-note if the fluoro covers are down.No matter how hard we push for replacement parts,unless a pax is injured its a low priority,OZ