Rex Cancel More Flights

[neville_nobody]

Well it looks like REX would rather cancel flights than address attrition rates. Where will it end? Are they going to go broke rather than address the turnover?

Interesting the comments regarding QantasLink.

http://www.rex.com.au/corp_info/ShowNews.aspx?nid=168&page=MC



Rex Announces Network Changes Due to Pilot Shortage
Friday, 8 February 2008


Regional Express (Rex) has today announced a number of network schedule changes as a result of the continuing pilot shortage.

Rex will suspend services between Melbourne and Griffith, effective 25 February 2008, as a direct result of the pilot shortage that the airline – and Australian aviation industry as a whole – currently faces. The suspension of the Melbourne to Griffith route will have flow-on effects for other Griffith flights, with a reduction in the frequency of Rex services between Sydney and Griffith expected.

Rex has also announced a postponement of the Maryborough to Brisbane route. This service, suspended in November 2007, was due to recommence on 16 March 2008 but will now recommence in September at the earliest.

As a consequence of the severe pilot shortage, services between Sydney and Cooma, originally scheduled to recommence on 19 May 2008, will now resume on 6 June 2008.

Highlighting the pilot shortage in Australia, Rex Chief Pilot Chris Hine said, “No airline in the world can withstand a 60% annual attrition rate of its pilot strength without catastrophic damage and the fact that we have only suspended 6% of our services is a testimony to the dedication and sacrifices of our staff and the rapidity of management’s response to this severe crisis.

“In response to the pilot shortage, Rex has started its own pilot school and the first batch of 16 cadets, handpicked from 1,600 applicants, will graduate in July 2008. Thereafter we will have about 20 new pilots every three months, largely sheltering Rex from the massive recruitment of our trained pilots by the main airlines.”

Mr Hine warned that the situation will get worse in the year ahead with all three major domestic carriers – Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin Blue – set to embark on aggressive fleet expansion in addition to the start up of Tiger Airways.

Mr Hine elaborated on this, adding “Not all regional airlines have Rex’s ability to fund their own cadet programme and flying academy. I expect to see a bloodbath amongst the regional operators in the months ahead. Even QantasLink will not be spared as evidenced by its recent reduction in services to ports such as Dubbo, Armidale, Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Newcastle and Tamworth. I foresee many regional operators not making it through 2008.”

Commenting on Rex’s latest suspension of services, Mr Warrick Lodge, Rex General Manager of Network Strategy and Sales said, “This decision has been very difficult given the level of support we have received from the Griffith City Council, the Maryborough City Council and the broader local communities. Rex will go to great lengths to be committed to communities that support us and fully embrace the partnership approach.

“Unfortunately it is often the newest routes that understandably have the lowest passenger loads. We would normally have persevered two years to build up the new routes but given the severity of the pilot crisis, we do not have the luxury of time and we need to make the painful decision now in order to preserve the integrity of the larger network.

“We would like to return to these routes in the future, but this remains largely subject to the pilot situation and the level of local support,” Mr Lodge added.

Passengers holding reservations on any suspended service should contact the Rex Customer Contact Centre on 131713 for a full refund. Griffith to Melbourne passengers also have the option of transferring across to the Griffith to Sydney service with no additional charge.

Rex is Australia’s largest independent regional airline operating a fleet of 37 Saab 340 aircraft on 1,300 flights weekly to 24 destinations from Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide. The Rex Group comprises Regional Express, air freight and charter operator Pel-Air Aviation and Dubbo based regional airline, Air Link.

[Wizofoz]

largely sheltering Rex from the massive recruitment of our trained pilots by the main airlines.

Oh no it won't!!

They will quickley have a whole lot of sprog F/Os and no Captains for them to fly with!!

Besides which, Qantas is taking guys with 700hrs, which equals one of their Cadets + 1 years flying the line. I guarentee the pay differential would mean the Cadet being ahead within 2 years, so they are just spending money producing fodder for the airlines.

For 150K I would seriously consider giving up my O/S wide body command to fly a Turbo-prop, provided I was based in a regional centre, and I know a lot of people with similar views.

If you need appropriatley qualified employees, pay competitive salarys!!

[KRUSTY 34]

Wizofoz.

That is the only thing that will save this situation now! Back in April last year I predicted that this would all come to pass. It wasn't rocket science back then either, the numbers simply didn't add up. I submitted a plan (fully funded) that would have reduced the attrition of the senior guys to a trickle. Management politely told me that I didn't know what I was talking about, it was all in hand and that they had plans to address it. Hell, even some of my collegues were reluctant because they didn't want to be seen as greedy opportunists!

From the press release:

"In response to the pilot shortage, Rex has started its own pilot school and the first batch of 16 cadets, handpicked from 1,600 applicants, will graduate in July 2008. Thereafter we will have about 20 new pilots every three months, largely sheltering Rex from the massive recruitment of our trained pilots by the main airlines.”

Delusional nonsence! The first batch of cadets haven't even flown yet!

Of course this subject has been done to death. The problem is that it will not end untill such time as REX dies, or REX management bite the bullet and actively attempt to retain staff.

Wizofoz. Your figure of $150K is close to the mark. I would see something akin to $100K P/A + $50K retention every 12 months for captains. $60K P/A + $30K retention for F/O's as being the minimum required!

Over the next 12 months REX will lose half of its current captains. This will result in the latest schedule cuts looking insignificant by comparison. REX will have no alternative than to attempt to hire Direct Entry Captains. Commands at REX are currently running at less than 8 months! So anyone starting today is virtually a DEC with some preceeding RHS experience. The problem is that many of the new hires, and all of the cadets do not meet the min experience required for command!

So, if true DEC's are to be considered then the above remuneration would be a minimum to even attract an interest in the current environment. Of course these pilots would still have to be trained, checked etc..., and guess what, there will be nobody left to train them!

The cost of my original proposal was $6.25 added to the ticket price. Unfortunately the benchmark has now been raised. See Surveillance Australia. I estimate for this to work, it would now cost the travelling public approx $15 per ticket to save the airline.

So what's it to be REX. $15 on the ticket price, or collapse?

[Chris Higgins]

Wizofoz,

So you'd sell out for a lousy $150 k?! We can make that flying a Cessna! Glad to see you're setting yourself up to sell out the local boys back in Oz when you return.:}

[KRUSTY 34]

Try some perspective Chris.

He's talking $150K for a turboprop gig. Not widebodied command! Whilst that sort of money is definitely what's needed, it is way short on what REX are currently offering.

And you didn't mention what type of Cessna! If it's the little old bugsmasher that we all cut our teeth on, then I'm sure many others here would like to know the details.

[flyitboy]

Being new to this forum am amzaed at the bitterness of some towards others here. It's rife in almost all the threads that I have had the chance to read/follow.
Are we not all meant to be of the same race? You would think that there was an invasion from another planet the way some act here. I've been looking at the possability of going to REX (& others), or at least applying but am not so sure if just 10% of what is said here is true about REX for Eg.

F

[Lodown]

Watch Rex scream "FOUL" if another regional airline serious about retaining pilots steps in and starts flying their routes. It can't be far away. Some beancounter has run the numbers and will have it sussed on the best time to make a play. The local councils must be screaming.

[Soulman]

Chris Hine said, “No airline in the world can withstand a 60% annual attrition rate of its pilot strength without catastrophic damage

Yes it can - pay 'em more money!

Where's the fcukin cash, Neville? :E

[KRUSTY 34]

Lodown.

That idea has been floated before.

Unless the new operator is willing to pay $150K for Capts and at least $90K for F/O's, then they will have the same problems as REX. Not to mention the start up costs.

Untill such time as operators, all operators, start competeing for labour, it will be the travelling public, especially those of the regional centres that will pay the price.

As I said before, REX can stop the rot in it's tracks. If it costs the travelling public $15-$20 dollars a ticket, big deal. The alternative will be no air service at all!!

[Chris Higgins]

So-long,

Long ago was correct...in the early '90s that was true. Most F/Os at the regional are well over US$50k in their first year. Trip rig, extended day rate, holiday pay and overtime all make it much more appealing than you would first think. I spoke with a regional jet captain that I went to university with here in Pittsburgh and he made US$110k last year, he hasn't been there long.

See, some of you see a published pay scale and assume base is all that's offered. This is America mate, don't come here if you want to be a slacker!

Is it your management that's coming up with this? I made nearly $40 k in the very early '90s as an F/O on a turboprop in JFK and that's when it was US$0.68 to the AUS $1.00. Corrected for inflation it's about the same.

No, we weren't required to pay for training either, that's another rampant lie that's now made its way back by way of the Impulse guys. Only the ones that couldn't get hired with the decent regionals bought a job!

[Normasars]

AAAAHHHHHHHH Chris, you pop up here as well now.

What was that comment regarding the Impulse boys not being able to get a gig in " THE DECENT REGIONALS".

I assume by this you mean EAA and Kendall/Hazo's/Rex(after all Impulse was a NSW operation.)

On another thread(which you have been vehemently attacked and justifiably so) EAA was a joke according to you.

Mate, you wouldn't know sh1t from chocolate pudding.

Something about putting one's foot in one's mouth:ok:

[Wizofoz]

Krusty, Norman et al ,

I was one who critisised Mr Higgins, and he is the well rounded type of individual who, if critisised, is happy to turn into a troll/flamer and spout ****e at anyone who dared not to bow to his wisdom.

Hence I'm a sell-out for saying 150K is fair for a T-prop, while in the Land Of The Free, they are all just fine for taking 110K for flying a Jet.

Barking? Sure!

But let's not feed the trolls, eh?:ok:

[Shark Slayer]

...........mmm $100,000 salary plus $50,000 bonus for captains!

Where have I seen that money on offer?

Surveillance Australia !!!

[flysaucer1200]

Quote- So you'd sell out for a lousy $150 k?! We can make that flying a Cessna! Glad to see you're setting yourself up to sell out the local boys back in Oz when you return.:}

Dear MR Chris Higgins
I think your statement is amazing sir!!! Unless, of course it is true!!!! 150k flying a Cessna.???

Please tell me where, I will go.

150K Aussie dollars, or is that 150K US dollars?????
150K$ Aussie = ( http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi (http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi) ) = $134,144.16 USD

So that means in the US, people fly Cessna’s for 134K US, or do they fly Cessna’s for 150K in Aussie,

I need to pay off loans, out my ears, please tell me MR Chris Higgins where these jobs are, because I will go, and fast like a thirsty horse to a water trough

thank you Kindly

[KRUSTY 34]

Shark.

See post #3 above, 2nd last paragraph. I gave reference to the Surveillance Australia offer. They have set the new benchmark. If REX and the other regionals decide to compete, it will have to be a similar offer.

If they don't, then they may as well close the doors.

[Wizofoz]

Surveillance Australia !!!

And, as such, have had interest from VERY experienced Australian pilots currently OS (Not me on this occastion, as none of the bases suit.) Goes to show, make the right offer, and they will come!!

[ernestkgann]

Wiz I'm a fellow sand slave looking for exits. Do you know how the bonus works with this contract? Ta.

[Diver Dan]

As I understand it they are also about of offer fly in fly out deals from any capital city in Australia (for those who don't want to locate to a base).

If Rex lose 20 experienced Captains to SAPL is that game, set and match?

[Stationair8]

In the early 90's a FO job on a Saab with Hazo's or Kendalls was the dream job, join the line at the respective CP door.

[Howard Hughes]

There was just quite a long story on the ABC news about Rex, not enough pilots they claimed, then one person at the end saying they need to pay more, of course they didn't let anybody know what they are actually paid!:rolleyes:

[stevie g]

Those last 20 captains should ask for $200K ..... thay might just get it!!

[meagain]

I just caught the last bit of a story about REXs cancelled flights on ABC tonight, and at the end of the story some Capt so-and s0- makes this grand statement that in India Saab 340 pilots, or was it Dash 8's (same size anyway) pilots were getting $20,000 a month compared with $5000 here.... Dream on matey, actually B-777 pilots are only getting around $11000 / month in India, so I don't know where this guy got his information from but it made a good story for some lying journalist anyway.

[KRUSTY 34]

Missed the ABC news.

Pity if someone has gone off sprouting numbers, especially if the amounts are incorrect. As pilots we are generally viewed by the public as highly remunerated, whether this be the case or not. So when someone mentions $5K per month, your average punter probably thinks something along the lines of, "wish I earnt that much", without having any concept of what the profession entails. The only thing the punter needs to know is whether or not they will have an air service.

The real issue is not how much we make, or do not make for that matter. But how much we need to be paid to stay.

And that should best be kept amongst ourselves.

[Erin Brockovich]

I put the Rex Media release through the Google translation function and came up with this -

Regional Express (Rex) has today announced a number of network schedule changes as a result of the continuing management brain cell shortage.

Rex will suspend services between Melbourne and Griffith, effective 25 February 2008, as a direct result of the managers and directors, that the airline – and Australian aviation industry as a whole – currently faces. The suspension of the Melbourne to Griffith route will have flow-on effects for other Griffith flights, with a reduction in the frequency of Rex services between Sydney and Griffith expected.

Rex has also announced a postponement of the Maryborough to Brisbane route. This service, suspended in November 2007, was due to recommence on 16 March 2008 but will now recommence in September at the earliest.

As a consequence of the management incompetence and short sightedness, services between Sydney and Cooma, originally scheduled to recommence on 19 May 2008, will now resume on 6 June 2008.

Highlighting the management problems in Australia, Rex Chief Pilot Chris Hine said, “No airline in the world can withstand a 60% annual attrition rate of its pilot strength without catastrophic damage and the fact that we have only suspended 6% of our services is a testimony to the dedication and sacrifices of our staff despite the management’s lack of a realistic response to this severe crisis.

“In distracting share holders to the pilot shortage, Rex has started its own pilot school and the first batch of 16 cadets, handpicked from 1,600 people with a pulse, will graduate in July 2008 with a GFPT and a huge personal financial debt. Thereafter we will have about 20 new pilots every three months waste their time and money, largely sheltering Rex management from the any blame.
Mr Hine warned that the situation will get worse in the year ahead with all three major domestic carriers – Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin Blue – set to embark on aggressive fleet expansion in addition to the start up of Tiger Airways.

Mr Hine elaborated on this, adding “Not all regional airlines have Rex’s ability to scam their own cadet programme and flying academy. I expect to see a bloodbath amongst Rex and angry parents and students in the months ahead. Even QantasLink will not be spared as evidenced by its recent reduction in services to ports such as Dubbo, Armidale, Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Newcastle and Tamworth. I foresee many regional operators not making it through 2008, but our policy of keeping our heads in the sand is still sound.”

Commenting on Rex’s latest suspension of services, Mr Warrick Lodge, Rex General Manager of Network Strategy and Sales said, “This decision has been quite easy despite the level of support we have received from the Griffith City Council, the Maryborough City Council and the broader local communities. Rex will go to great lengths to drop the low yielding routes to cut costs and blame the pilot shortage that we have helped create!

……………………………………….

[kookabat]

Pure dead brilliant.


It'd be funny if it wasn't true :{

[Chris Higgins]

Normasars...Normasars.

So the 717 pilot that pranged in; is he one of the ones you trained too? I thought you trained ALL the airline pilots in the world...oh great one?

FlySaucer

There are plenty of pilots being hired straight into Citations making between US$85-110 in the first year. Some have less than 1000 hours. The friend from uni' that went to the regional that is making US$110 is in his third year with the carrier. With penalties and retirement contributions it will be over US$150k this year, if he works hard, and he will to pay off college loans. Upgrade times are running at less than 2 years at most regionals, he got lucky and upgraded in three months.

I was lucky enough to be a direct entry captain with my present employer and so it's just a matter of timing more than anything.

There are guys that fly the Fed Ex Caravan out of Pittsburgh three nights a week and go to uni' near the airport that make close to $US60K. They are very short sectors of less than an hour and normally only two or three legs.

Anyway, I've got to take the boys skiing, it's beginning to snow and they're restless.

Cheers!

[Metro man]

If REX came close to Surveillance Australias package I'm sure they would get a few pilots who would rather live in a nice regional town than Broome, Horn Island or Darwin, even with fly in/fly out.

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"No airline in the world can withstand a 60% annual attrition rate of it's pilot strength without catastrophic damage..."

Metro man.

I would even go one step further and say that if REX matched the surveillance offer (permanately), their crewing problems would be gone forever, and they would save their airline from "catastrophic damage"!

Helloooo.... McFly!!!!

[flyitboy]

$150K for a Saab Cpt. EG.
$180K for a NG Cpt. EG.

If those figures above are what can be expected if REX for Eg come to the party then it won't stop the flow of pilots to the $180K + NG'ers because pilots always go forward, not only in their aeroplanes but in their careers.

The regionals will always be a 'stepping stone' or a 'training ground', always has been always will be.


F

[KRUSTY 34]

So what do you suggest they do flyitboy. continue to bury their heads in the sand while the whole thing disintergrates around them?

The stepping stone that you refer to may be applicable to some. The pilots that REX are losing now, not only include these people, but those who would not normally have moved on. The loss of these experienced Captains, if left unchecked will lead to not only the destruction of REX, but also to the demise of many regional air services. There is a lot at stake here.

The major carriers have always paid more than the regionals. So why the problem?

Once upon a time a Regional Captain was paid approx what a Domestic F/O was paid. The incentive to move on, pay for an endorsement, retrain etc..., was not as great for those settled in their job
The gap between regional wages and their Domestic counterparts has widened
the lifestyle at the regionals was considered superior. Now everyone is working max hours. The old addage, " I might as well get flogged over there for more money, than stay here and get flogged for less" is common.
The regional airlines today are large companies in their own right. Professionally run (operationally at least), with revenue, turnover and economies of scale that simply did not exist a decade or more ago. They can and should pay more.
The answer to attrition has always been to recruit. Unless you have been living on Mars for the last 12 months, you will see that is now not a viable option!The only effective course of action is to compete for labour. Of the 60% of pilots that REX have lost in the last 12 months, I knew many of the F/O's, and most of the Captains. Of these Captains, virtually every one of them and many of the F/O's would have stayed for more money. If the amounts being offered by Surveillance Australia were on the table, REX would not be facing the "catastrophic damage" that it is today.

So don't be deluded into thinking it is not worth competing for "experienced" pilots. In the current environment it is the only thing that will save REX from losing another 60% of their pilots and collapse!

[Chris Higgins]

Krusty 34

You win the prize for the best post on this thread! Except major airlines didn't require pay for training anywhere in OZ until Impulse/Jetstar.

So Long

I am interested in how much time you have spent in the United States and in what parts? The Americans seem fairly well acquainted with international travel, investment and education. My wife did her Masters Degree at Macquarie University in 1989. She was a Rotary Foundation full scholar and gained her graduate degree at 21.

The Americans didn't know me from a bar of soap, gave me an opportunity on a handshake and allowed me to make my fortune. I didn't go to a special school, learn a secret handshake or sell my soul to anyone.

Some people find that all very bewildering on these forums but it used to happen all the time in another place too; that place was Australia!

[KRUSTY 34]

Dubious honour!

[Capt Wally]

Interesting comments there 'chris'
I feel it's a different world these days
There's a lot more 'competion ' for the youth of today to persuade them towards a flying career. It's the following reasons that I think has us at where we are now, too many positions not enough pilots to fill them.
Many years ago the IT industry was all but non existant. The normal path for most youths was either to take up a trade,(usually from a tech school) become a professional such as a doc, lawyer dentist, scientist etc.(usually high school) or take up flying, somewhere in between. I say flying not in the same breath as professional (it is obviosuly but on a diff level) because it's not when compared to being one of the above (doc, lawyer) You don't need too good an education to be a commercial pilot but that doesn't apply for the other professions. But now in modern day few kids take up flying 'cause of the well known fact that the remuneration compared to other jobs is poor as well as the fact that to get there is hard work & costly with only a medical or slight dissability possibly grounding you for life. We have quite a lazy society these days, if it's hard work/expensive then you have lost a lot straight up!
The few (pilots) that are holding all the Co's together are getting tired.
Extar money won't make that tiedness any better nor will better T&C's what we need is 'pilots', & lots of them !
There is no quick fix here, this mess achieved over years of poor forth site on behalf of the majors & the fact that flying is no longer attractive is where the root cause lies. It's not up to us as pilots to fix the problem, the fix must come from above with strong forward planning. Time, that's the thing we have plenty of, just not for everybody !

CW

[Cloud Whisperer]

FLYITBOYThe regionals will always be a 'stepping stone' or a 'training ground', always has been always will be.

No!!! Definitely not ALWAYS!! . . . I didn’t want to. . . I don’t really want to still, but the pay, or lack thereof, does make me pause :sad:

As has been said there is the lifestyle factor. I was one of those who, as Stationair8 posted, would have been in the Hazo/Kendall queue to the respective CP door. But alas. . . . :hmm:

The appeal is there - actual flying, short sectors, lifestyle. It is what some want, and this applies to a broad spectrum of ages.

METRO MAN – nail on the head.

I currently have the privilege (and joy) of scooting around in a turboprop, albeit from a place I would rather not be in anymore. But the Company gave us sizeable pay increase, with the final figure still in the grinder (SA offer may make them think again), to slow the exodus and to recruit others. It worked for me and slowed me down – for a bit :*:ouch::sad:

Now if the Regionals offered what I get, and some abandoned that daft ‘pay for endorsement’ nonsense then my bags would be packed..

KRUSTY 34 – they can compete for me :}

As has been posted, the smaller companies have been quicker to respond, I am sure with great reluctance but they realised they had to or “last one out turn out the lights please”..

Heads must come out of the sand . . . soon?:ugh:

[Frazzled]

OK, just a few questions please - I have been following this thread and if anyone would like to answer some questions seriously i would be thankful.

Firstly, I am not an airline pilot - however i am not up to scratch on the politics/economics of regional airlines. So here goes:

1. Is rex making profit? If so small or large?
2. If rex was to match surveillance australia then where does the extra money come from?
3. How many people does a dash 8 or whatever rex operates carry?
4. Therefore if gaining extra cash comes from increased fares then how much does the fare have to increase?
5. I am guessing serveillance Australia just charges the government more for the service therefore has the extra money to cough up for increased wages - is this right? Are the regional routes supplemented by government for supplying services to the country regions?

I am quite in favour of increased wages for the regional guys, as it sounds like you could get the same money working at coles and doing the hard yards to get your ATPL should be rewarded with a salary which comensurate with training and qualifications. I am just trying to understand that's all.

cheers,
Frazzled

[Frazzled]

:) Thanks alot,

In that case - I wish the guys and gals the best of luck with the quest for a bigger slice of the pie:D, you deserve it

Just stay united that's all.

[Jenna Talia]

Erin,

That is the funniest piece I have seen here in a long time. It must have taken some time to edit.

Well done :ok:

JT

[Spanwise Flow]

Holy crap Batman, every 2nd thread eventually turns into terms and conditions bashing. Maybe we need a 3rd forum on Dunnunda & Godzone called Terms and Conditions ( or a lack of ).

[KRUSTY 34]

Frazzled.

Those are accurate numbers from DirectAnywhere, but I'll just tweak them a little. Last April the REXPC (pilot comittee) crunched the numbers for a 40% payrise. Cost, $7.5 Mil P/A. Popular thinking was that if structured as a 12 monthly retention bonus, $30K P/A for Captains, and $18K P/A for F/O's, then it could be fully funded by a ticket levy of approx $6.25 without the need to directly affect profits. REX management made every excuse under the sun, but the reality is that they simply could not get their heads around paying their pilots more. and they still can't!

10 months later REX has seen a pilot attrition rate of 60%, including many senior Captains. Indications are that the next 12 months will see a similar level of bloodletting. If that happens then REX is screwed!

Unfortunately, the race out the door has gained considerable momentum. There are many who doubt that the 40% will now cut it. To fund a payrise and retention scheme similar to that proposed by Surveillance Australia, a ticket levy of approx $15 would be required.

Sadly it is what's now probably needed to save the current situation.

Wait a minute. I've said this before..... $15 a ticket or Collapse? Decisions, decisions?????

Gidday Spanwise.

Getting monotonous isn't it. The thread is titled Rex Cancels More Flights. The reason that flights are being cancelled is because pilots have left and are continuing to leave in droves to pursue better Pay, and usually better Conditions!

Go figure eh!

[xxgoldxx]

To flyitboy and some others I can guarantee you are wrong on a few of the issues.. not everyone wants to fly the big boys toys .. not everyone wants to live in the city area of MLB SYD or BNE.. for those that have 2 crew turbine experience and are willing to be happy for the next 10 - 15 years on a turbo prop as long as the pay is DECENT can anyone tell me ANY operator I can do that with and still live south of the BME DWN CNS/TVL line ....??

I am sure there are enough of us out there to provide long term crew for these guys well into the future if they were willing..

And please ... I am still a few years short of 40 so not quite past it yet !!:rolleyes:

[fatigueflyer]

Hi guys. Sorry to hear about the attrition rate at REX. Could someone highlight the salary package for Captains and FOs at REX? Just interested why people are leaving what seems to be a good job as not too many have said anything negative about the work or flying there. Cheers and good luck. FF

[KRUSTY 34]

It's a great job.

I would be quite happy to see out the rest of my career at REX (and I am not alone!).

Problem is the hard working professionals have seen little in the way of acknowledgement of their worth. The Chairman's odd pep talk simply does not cut it.

Initial training is well developed, Intensive but of a high standard. The checking is also of a high standard, as evidenced by the now 50% initial failure rate!

People leave for a number of reasons. But the reality is that it is difficult to raise a family on the salary if you live in Sydney, or for that matter anywhere now. $42K P/A once checked to line. Assuming you have the min experience requirements, you are able to survive the training and checking process (with little experience on the type), and there are any Check and trainers left! Your ist years Captains salary will be $68K P/A!

These numbers do improve with years of service, but there are so many better opportunities out there, that people are now leaving what could be one of the best careers in aviation.

[Adrian A]

Krusty

Can REX increase their rates by $15 per flight and still attract about the same number of passengers? If they increase rates by around 10% and lose 10% of passengers then the price rise is cancelled out.

Out of interest, if you had money to invest would you buy REX shares?

[Cloud Whisperer]

xxgoldxx I hope I get the right area you defined as 'South'.

You past it - no! You're in the prime of your life :) thats what I keep telling myself anyway :p

Below are positions I know of. Are these companies keeping up with the times (or trying to) or are they even more in need of crew since fewer pilots want to go North (those that like to have their/a cushy job down south :hmm: :E ). Know a few of those who want a turboprop gig to move forward but don't want to move!! :hmm:

DN - SA (many adverts), Dash, two crew and $100++
DN - PAA, Kingair, single pilot, $90+
DN & CS - Skytrans, two crew, Dash, $87+

My conditions okay (8 days off - 1 weekend, 1 sat or sun, most in groups of 2 or more) can accept days off if choose with penalty paid, 6 weeks pa, allowances . . . . .

Thanks for the salary update Krusty. It is a bit ordinary given the state of the market when I compare it to my 5x '0' salary (turboprop), but the company wanted us experienced guys to stay, so now I :{:{:{ . It's going to be hard to leave and 'live' in Sydney on what they offer. there are so many better opportunities out thereSeems disrespectul how management treat pilots at times :(

Lifestyle is important - Rex and the like could/does/did? provide it, but money does help to this end. I would update an application with them if they offered more, and, unless I am wrong, the overall morale improves.


Howdy Spanwise

Not a bad idea and hopefully that Forum would only be around for a short time. These threads do go to that way quickly, but as I see it, pilots have always been on the 'back foot' with T&C. Pilots are now on the front foot and management don't like this reversal of "demand and supply" - they had it too good for too long.

[Fatcat23]

The reality of the wages scenario comes down to the reality that unless a place is flooded out, then there are always going to be numerous alternatives to flying. Once ticket prices reach a certain level, people will start using the logical alternatives such as cars, busses, rail etc. And that point is reached a lot faster as the planes get smaller. You'd have to guess that they all do the sums regularly, and if it was financially better to pay lots and lots more, as opposed to paying less, losing pilots and cutting flights, then they'd just do it. Who wouldn't???

FC

[xxgoldxx]

I actually meant "south" of all those positions mentioned.. eg SEQLD NSW VIC..S WA etc but thanks for the updates.. !!:)

[Oh that's super!]

No airline in the world can withstand a 60% annual attrition rate of is pilot strength

Ugh... don't they feel embarrassed to have such a high attrition rate? Despite the fact that jet operators are recruiting and understandably and undoubtedly people are moving up the career ladder, surely they could at least make efforts to retain people by providing a more attractive workplace (for example, by improving the working condition and pay)?

Rather than just creaming what sounds like "PILOT SHORTAGE, you pilot poaching b:mad:d jet operators, and IT'S NOT OUR FAULT!!", shouldn't they do something concrete (putting a weak cadet scheme in place doesn't count) to attract and retain experienced people? Or have they completely given up on it and operating on the basis of 'we won't pay more, we won't treat people better, because they'll leave anyway', 'let's just cancel services where-ever necessary and keep the more profitable routes' mentality? Or are they possibly taking the opportunity to blame pilot shortage to cut out the unprofitable routes anyway?

I won't go into the effect of wages on ticket prices because that gets too complicated (although wage rises don't need to mean a big % increase in ticket price because wages aren't generally so huge a component in operating costs), but at least they can 'try' to keep the experience level through various means, surely?

[KRUSTY 34]

Fatcat 23.

That's ok. don't offer the pilots more, and the result will be the same. People will not have to seek alternative forms of transport as the decision will be made for them.

And while we're on the ecobabble merry go round, just watch the prices at REX rise over the next 12 months due to the lost economies of scale.

It'll be a hell of a lot more than $15 a ticket!

Adrian A.

See above rationale. And would I invest in REX, with a pilot attrition rate of 60%! Not a chance.

[Launch_code_Harry]

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6886/cisservgifbe9.th.gif (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cisservgifbe9.gif)

[Hugh Jarse]

Krusty,

At least your management have organised decent raincoats for you :cool:

It's a shame that those people who actually want to stay are being thrown on the same scrapheap as those that always intended to move on. The "stayers" are the bearers of your flight standards if they stay... Without them, well.....

Any savvy management that knows their staff (not as numbers) would be able to discriminate between the two and tailor a suitable retention package that targets the people they wish to keep.......

Unfortunately, there is no such animal in Australia. The short term greed is just too much........

[KRUSTY 34]

Actually Hugh they are very good raincoats. And haven't we needed them lately!

As for the rest of it, well we'll all just keep shaking our heads.

[apache]

congratulations Krusty.... it ONLY took 4 years to get raincoats!!!

I am somewhat impressed

[KRUSTY 34]

apache,

Perhaps I should clarify. The raincoats I am refering to are the ones located in the aircraft! As for the issue of personal raincoats....

S.N.A.F.U.

[boardpig]

I’m actually getting a little bit concerned about the frankly excellent way airlines like Rex have managed to pull to wool over the publics eyes. Yesterday I spent a few moments on news.com.au reading the story on the cheap air fares being offered by J*. One of the “readers” had commented that “J* could afford to offer such fares, just look at what they pay their pilots”. The response to this was basically, “if you don’t like the pay, move on. There is a pilot shortage you know!!” This was not an isolated comment either.
Now I understand you wouldn’t expect too much more articulation from these types, but it does display a rather worrying trend. It seems the majority of the flying public 1) Have no idea that there isn’t a pilot shortage and 2) are swallowing the nonsense the REX etc are feeding them.

Why are these airlines continually allowed to run their employees into the ground, eroding their morale and self respect, then cry poor to the media who in turn, don’t question it???

I am at a loss to understand why any of the current media outlets have not for one moment decided to bring this story to the public, or at least try to “sniff around” to get some facts that haven’t been spoon fed to them. I can recall at least four conversations in the past 2 weeks where folks have refused to believe the T’s and C’s at certain airlines. They seriously think I’m BS’ing them.
Meanwhile Rex et al are cancelling more services, treating their drivers and crew like sh*t, while successfully manipulating public opinion to point the finger of blame at you guys. Sounds almost like an evil organisation:} bent on having the Govt offer grants to bring in cheap overseas labour so that the "bush" doesnt loose its air connection.

Such a shame.

[bushy]

The "system" has been hoodwinking pilot trainees for decades. The PR section of the airlines get the media to publish what is good for their business.
I think there is a shortage of experienced, type rated pilots in Australia who the airlines can put immediately to work with little expense. But there are others who have spent tens of thousands of dollars getting themselves trained outside the airlines who could be airline pilots after a little extra training. The airlines are VERY reluctant to recruit them and complete their training. That costs money, and they may stay only a short time.
The airlines have to order their new aircraft years ahead. They could be training pilots for them in this time. But they try to get pilots from overseas, or other airlines, or get governments to subsidise that training. They will recruit from outside the airline system and provide training at their own cost as a last resort.
Those airlines that have a long term plan for crewing, and training facilities will do better than the others.
Times have changed.

[radaz]

The message is getting through....
Check out the share price today.
I can not understand Rex management/owners!
Why are they so pig-headed and are willing to (wanting to) bury the operation.I can't see it..
The Mangalore Cadet Program..whats that about?
Anyone?... Alternative explanations please.:ugh:

[Lodown]

Why are these airlines continually allowed to run their employees into the ground, eroding their morale and self respect, then cry poor to the media who in turn, don’t question it???


Look no further than the mirror. The answer is simple. "Because they can!" Pilots have not only encouraged it, they've embraced it. From a pilot perspective, it's been a competitive fight for jobs: one that has benefitted employers tremendously to ruthlessly exploit, and one that has seen its fair share of kneecapping between competitors.

Experienced pilots are a bit thin now and those pilots still in the game have to learn how to exploit the environment for their own ends in the same ruthless manner simply by remaining flexible and moving to areas where your skillset is valued most. What happens to a company because of employee resignations is frankly none of your business after you leave. The employers have to compete over you and all the whining in the media is simply confirmation that the execs don't like the situation they find themselves in. There's no need to make a public case for the pilots' position. It's a free country and no one with any sense is going to blame anyone else for trying to better themselves...unless you're a PO'ed regional airline executive looking down the empty barrel of an annual bonus and a resume entry that screams, "Loser!" to any future employer.

The irony of the situation shouldn't be lost. As the regionals cut back on routes, the same companies become top heavy. They have to start shedding management jobs at some stage soon. There's a good chance the executive that blinks first and suggests that pilots be paid more will be the first one out the door. They certainly can't cut back on pilots unless they close up shop. Sit back and enjoy the show.

[PlankBlender]

Boardpig, have a look at a draft for a response to a recent BS Rex media release:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=312911&page=2

I think we must make the pilots' voices heard and go against the BS the media publishes on behalf of aviation PR interests. Any support, be it from the media, the general public, or other sources, will help shape the collective perception, and that includes the managers who are on the other side of the table when it comes to negotiating the next T&C deal!

[KRUSTY 34]

Plankbender.

Very sage and accurate. However I have to agree with Lodown on this one. I have seen the same logical arguements put before the management and board of REX. In a 2 page rebuttal the REX chief of staff systematically discounted every one of these arguements!

History has shown that nothing we say will change their mind. The only option for REX pilots is to keep on doing what they have been, and that's leave for greener pastures!

As insane as it appears, the management of REX do not or cannot acknowledge the fundamental reasons for this crisis. The only thing left is the inexorable decline of REX.

Perhaps, at the 11th hour they may see the light. The tragedy is that it will be way too late by then.

[wethereyet]

A question for our clever friends like FATCAT23 and AIRCRAFT:

If rex was worth approximately 330 Million when shares were at their peak of around $2.90, and shares are now around $1.25, how much value has been lost? (sure the rest of the market has fallen, but not like this)

And your silly arguement about price elasticity - the old $5 (about 3% on average fares)ticket increase to fund adequate tech crew salaries will not get country people driving 6 hours in their cars. Cancelled services surely will :ugh:

Even the arguement of reduced profits and same ticket price to fund pilot retention would have saved this result. Shareholders, customers and crew would have all been better off :DBut hey, the greed of some led to the present.

What the salary increase could have done is kept the network expanding - Increasing Rex pilot salary by 30-40%, which would have prevented the most of the more mature SAAB drivers from leaving :yuk:

[apache]

The raincoats I am refering to are the ones located in the aircraft! As for the issue of personal raincoats....

S.N.A.F.U.

OK... not so impressed anymore. I