Potential security risk - thoughts?

[Sentry Agitator]

Master Agitator came home from school earlier this week with an A4 sheet of paper requesting we (all parents having children at the school) provide information regarding parents serving in the military.

We are to tick the relevant box to the questions:




Parent serving in the military?yes (TARGET)no (QUITE NORMAL - THANK YOU)refuse to say (TARGET)

Pupil's usual mode of travel?car or van (Roadside IED)car share (Roadside IED)cycle (Crossings IED)public bus (Bus stop target)walk (bit more difficult)
Of course the disclaimer goes on to say that the data may be computerised! and used for admin purposes within the council/childrens services and that it may be used and disclosed only as described under the data protection register!

OH HOW SAFE I FEEL! more info to be lost.

Fortunately I don't have to give my address but I do have to give the childs name and class and sign it.

Now I have spoken to the RAFP and they seemed concerned and advised me to throw said paper in the bin which is fair. However, I felt obligated to speak to the school.

Quote ' sorry but we don't know why the authority want the data....we have just been told to collate the information' unquote

I then went to the council who didn't know anything to start off with but promised to phone back. The nice lady did do so and informed me that it is a government requirement to conduct a census of the schools???? but why do they need to know if the parent is in the military??? surely no child should be discriminated against or singled out because of their parenting?

NOW I FEEL REALLY SAFE!

Am I alone in thinking that:
1. I don't know who has access to information about my sons school.
2. This information would identify a particular school as potentially having the children of a lot of service personnel.
3. Identify the school as a lovely little target for some dodgy organisation?

Can they really do this????? Comments and advise welcomed.

A very concerned Agitator

[Archimedes]

May I suggest that Mrs Agitator, if not serving, writes to your MP to ask him/her/it to raise the matter with the PM, Swiss Des and whichever half-wit is in charge of education this month?

If the MP is mildly hard of thinking or too busy working out this month's expenses, it may need to be explicit in explaining that the compromising of such data (which could be as simple as a child losing the piece of paper on the way to school) represents a security risk - not just IED related but kidnapping of the child (walk = easy to snatch) and attempted coercion of the serving parent.

[Safeware]

A similar survey has just been conducted at my kids school - in the heart of Salisbury Plain, so you can imagine how many military families are around.

However, no such info on whether families are military or not is required - the info is purely to help with the school setting out its travel plan, encouraging greener ways of getting to school - eg walk, cycle or car share.

I'd also approach your board of governors with your concerns.

sw

[minigundiplomat]

All a bit bizarre!

[Roland Pulfrew]

Sentry

I presume that we can guess which base you are at in Lincs, have you taken this to OC A or the education officer? Aren't they normally governors at the local schools? If not they should know who is. They might be able to seek more information on behalf of all of the military parents.

[jumpseater]

We've had a similar survey to fill in. Mrs js works on a mil base but is civvy.
On our questionaire there were no queries about where we worked or for whom. We wouldn't have answered those anyway, as they should have all the contact details required. Interestingly we don't live near the base concerned, 20 miles, or any other mil establishment. It was part of an environmental survey IIRC to see how children get to school.

[Safety_Helmut]

I would defintiely recommend taking this to the board of governors, but as for this:
have you taken this to OC A or the education officer? Aren't they normally governors at the local schools?
sorry, why ? This just makes me cringe, having been a school governor, the last thing you want is some muppet doing this for a secondary duty and trying to make his/her mark for the duration of their tour.

I haven't seen anything like this from my son's school.

S_H

[Roland Pulfrew]

sorry, why ?

Why take it to one of the governors? Or why do we still have service personnel doing governor as a secondary duty?

If it's the latter then it's usually because the local school asks for it to happen!!

[themightyimp]

Ignore it????

[Safety_Helmut]

Pilot are we Roland ? Read the first line of the post.

S_H

[Safeware]

"Ignore it????"

That fantastic bar to making progress!

sw

[XV277]

25 years ago, question like that would be filed in the round file. I don't see anything happening today to make it less so.

[Ogre]

Many moons ago, when I was posted to a certain fast jet base between Lincoln and Boston, we got chatting to the local headmaster about the standard of some of the local amenities like the library. He said they had a real problem getting funding, because the school population and such was officially classed as quite small. When i pointed out that the school was a decent size for the area, he pointed out that the majority of the kids were classed as "transient population" because their folks were in the RAF. We didn't count as locals because we could not guarantee being there for more than a couple of years.
I'm not saying that this is why the school sent out the forms, but by finding out how many kids are from service families they can plan ahead.
Not that I condone it, in fact I'd be tempted to threaten them with court action for putting you at risk of terrorist attack!

[MATZ]

In Dorset, they also wanted to know what marital category the parent(s) were...

The school had been directed by the local authority to collect the data. It has something to do with the way schools are funded from local and central Govt.

Now, don't we have a big, new computer thingy with all of our details on that might be able to provide this data.....

[Whenurhappy]

Up in rural Cumbria, we were asked to complete similar school census in December (didn't ask if we were military or not) but did ask for ethnicity! I, with a squeal of delight, ticked 'Other - Polynesian', ensuring that our Council met one of it's diversity targets. I can't wait for the next newsletter to be delivered in Cook Island Maori!

However, back to the proximate issue - I would refuse to fill in a form that required the specify if we were a military family; quite apart from the sy aspects, it's no one else's business.

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

Sentry A

Same here in the South East. Twice in the past couple of weeks a teacher asked for a show of hands from any kids with parents in the military. Daughter put her hand up. Am still awaiting a response from the school as to why.

[Atlantic Cowboy]

From my distant past as an administrator in the education field I think you find that the reason for this is so that additional funding can be targetted to the schools with a high proportion of service children. The reasoning behind this is that there is likely to be a transient population of children and that additional funding across all educational items is required to meet the effects of a churn in scool population. Counties like Wiltshire are keen to have regular information on their service schoolchildren population so they can get more money out of central government.
I can see that individuals are right to be concerned at providing the information but it may just help ensure that school their children attend receives that little extra funding.

[Wader2]

sorry, why ? This just makes me cringe, having been a school governor, the last thing you want is some muppet doing this for a secondary duty and trying to make his/her mark for the duration of their tour.

I haven't seen anything like this from my son's school.

S_H

Roland is quite right. At the secret base to which he alluded one of the educators was indeed copted onto the board of governors.

I was at a cocktail party when I saw her, didn't know she was the educator and governor, and she had been pinged to host the headmaster. As it happens I knew the HM from the other base where Ogre was. Both my daughters had been to his earlier school.

I took him off her hands.

As it happens he had previously asked about service children; mine two were much in the minority. One other reason was so they could be aware when dad, or mum, was OOA or was aircrew . . .

I also know the retired HM of Clinton Park School, he said it was a rare event for someone to start at the school and complete the whole stage of education there. That the school actually needs to ask OTOH is odd.

[Duckbutt]

I can see that individuals are right to be concerned at providing the information but it may just help ensure that school their children attend receives that little extra funding.

Mmm, I suggest that the potential cost of obtaining that "little extra funding" is far too high.

[Dan D'air]

This always makes me pi$$ myself laughing. My father was in the RAF and I was born and grew up in Singapore so I always tick Chinese in the box. Technically accurate but not representative, just like this government...

[High_lander]

Up in rural Cumbria, we were asked to complete similar school census in December (didn't ask if we were military or not) but did ask for ethnicity! I, with a squeal of delight, ticked 'Other - Polynesian', ensuring that our Council met one of it's diversity targets. I can't wait for the next newsletter to be delivered in Cook Island Maori!



Had me in stitches.

[engineer(retard)]

The West Wilts MP Andrew Murrison has been campaigning for additional funding for schools with a high military contingent. Maybe it is his camapign that has sparked the trawl.

regards

retard

[Sentry Agitator]

I've had a reply in response to the question I submitted (in relation to my post) to my MP who in turn had received a reply from a man in the cabinet office so you'd think it would be good? I don't think so.

I'll summarise:

Para 1 -
Thanks for the question

Para 2 -
(1) Info collected for first time in January of this year. Is that correct?
(2) In response to concerns that children of Service families can be disadvantaged in their education by being required to move frequently and change schools, often at times when children do not normally change schools. Common sense but is it likely to change?
(3) HOC Def Comm report recommended strongly that a marker be included in the annual school census. More red tape with no meaning
(4) Data provided will help them analyse the effects of moving school and could have adverse consequences on levels of attainment. As above

Para 3 -
(1) Security of data - Department committed to ensuring data and personal details should never be disclosed or used in an inappropriate way......oh B@@@##!
(2) Still security - Adheres to strict standards of data access and confidentiality....oh S@@#!
(3) Still security - All data will be kept physically secure and the department will not publish anything which could ID an individual....oh F~~#! but nothing about inadvertent loss of personal data

Para 4 -
(1) All schools have their own databases and the info is also contained here. So why have another database?
(2) Info can be transferred as pupils transfer but the service marker does not get transferred? So why have the info in the first place?
(3) The schools can also send data to local auth's and department for children, other schools and families? :uhoh: how many have access?

Para 5 -
(1)Anyone within the Gov dept dealing with the census has to be checked by the Crim Rec Bureau ....oh that's ok then!
(2) The Gov's lead agency has reminded schools of their responsibilities in handling sensitive data......oh.......!!!!

I'm still very concerned and I've sat on this for another month trying to think of what to do next.

Question - Am I making too big a deal of this???

SA

[side salad]

The governments data is very secure, how many times recently have various departments copied data onto CD's and handed them to the post office or a n other courior service to "misplace"?

I would recycle the request next time you run out of toilet paper

[mikip]

SA

Para 3 -
(1) Security of data - Department committed to ensuring data and personal details should never be disclosed or used in an inappropriate way......oh B@@@##!



ERRM who decides what is and is not appropriate?

[The Gorilla]

Sentry

Question - Am I making too big a deal of this???

Not at all, if you feel that strongly then carry on your battle. Let us not forget that this rabble that's in charge brought in comprehensive anti terror legislation that is now being used by local councils as an excuse to spy on indigenous people who might want to choose a decent school for their kids.

Personally I would give them a load of misinformation whenever you have to fill such forms in. I still do that today, marking any such forms with "The information supplied on this form may be inaccurate" It drives them round the bend!! Then you just ignore any attempts by the relevant department to contact you.

Have we decided what new religion we are going to create for the 2011 census yet? Anyone else a Jedi??? :D :D :D

[SilsoeSid]

Seems to me that the school/LEA need to address their environmental issues.

A sheet of A4 paper for 2 questions?

I realise that schools need to push out pieces of paper to parents/guardians/etc to pass on information, e-mails will never be efficient enough for this purpose, however...

...On one hand they use A4, when A5 would have been as effective and half the paper wasted, on the other hand they will give the children lessons on recycling/environmental issues/waste/climate change.
:ugh:


Back to the subject though, if something sinister was in line here, surely it would be simpler to target pupils going to schools that are near military bases!

Doesn't the school know what parents occupations are anyway? At least they asked YOU. It would have been easier to ask the children to draw their parents at work, and then have an environmental lesson on how they travel to school.

But as opposed to being sinister, it does seem like a total waste of time, effort and resources.

[side salad]

When you fill in the forms, use long words, that would fool my son's school.

[A.Agincourt]

The form is discriminatory. It isolates a section of the community. A refusal to complete on that basis should be perfectly in order.

Best Wishes

[unclenelli]

Create a false identity for yourself

I've insured cars for the past 15 years as a Civil Servant (jobs are banded like cars, and Civil Servant is Band 1 = 2CV, HM Forces Band 3 = Mondeo, and I think Pilot is Band 5or6 = top end Merc, and I think it goes up to 7 Stuntman/footballer = Ferrari)

We're all payed according to the Public Sector Pay Review Board of which AFPRB is part of, and decides all pay levels for Public Sector workers

I've never been questioned on it and I've always been ready to argue that I work in the Public Sector for the MOD and that is why my car was inside the wire at RAF whereever when LAC Bloggs drove into it
Also my car has never been registered at an RAF base address, which will help. This will make it difficult for LACs to insure using this method, unless they have an alternative address to use (family home for example)

In fact, a couple of years ago weren't we advised to explain that we were all "in government employ"

So for your school simply state that you're a Civil Servant

[Wyler]

Okay, I am a School Governor and have been for 5 years. Although I agree the form was a little odd, I suspect the reasons are as follows:

Our broken state education system is based on Government set targets. These targets are directly linked to funding and published league tables. So, every year a Head Teacher is required to 'Make a Bet', that is: How many kids from Key Stage whatever will make the required Grades in both their SATs and their GCSEs. Failure to meet that bet, with a margin of plus or minus very little, results in a finiancial penalty. That could mean the loss of a teaching post. Military kids moving in and out, even in small numbers, can have a dramatic effect on that outcome and so is a real concern to the school Management Teams. i.e If you have an RAF Brat who is very bright (level 7+) and that child moves just before the exams, it can knock the numbers off by enough to incur that penalty. That is why schools are keen to know who is and who is not in the military. It is a real headache but this useless Government has the school system by the balls and the Local Education Authorities enforce it with an almost Communist type control. The teachers hate it but there is nothing they can do.

The transport bit is, as has been said, in an effort to cut down on car/bus journies wherever possible. It has had no impact here where I live in a rural community.

As for knowing what parents do? Why should they? In todays rat race schools receive little or no support from 98% of parents and they are only seen when they want to bitch and moan. Also, to enquire about a parents occupation would probably be seen in some parts as trying to discriminate against the less well off. ( Yes, it really is that bad).

As to teachers pushing paper, not in my experience. Most of the paper comes from the Local Authority and they get it from Central Government who interfere on a daily basis.

As to making comments on the standard of teachers, OK, there are good and bad just as in every other organisation. The majority of the ones I have worked with just want to get on with the job and do their best by the kids. However, if your job is tied directly to your results, it is only human nature that teachers will do everything in their power to meet those targets. Hence, there is no longer any teaching, it is all exam practice and nothing more.

In defence of the schools, I have found the overwhelming majority of teachers and kids to be high calibre individuals who just want to get on, learn and enjoy life. The failure is smack bang on the doorstep of this stupid Government.

There is another element as well. Despite what the Daily Mail says, there is a growing shortage of school age kids so schools are now having to compete for numbers. This is another reason for collecting data on what is seen as a mobile part of the school cohort (to use school speak).

So, ignore the forms if you want. Please don't deface them or falsify them as that just creates work for others (who are just as busy as you). If you feel strongly then write directly to the Head Teacher. To go direct to the Governors is a bit like bypassing your Sqn Cdr if you have a problem.

As to approaching the RAFP and the Adminners, that gave me the best laugh in ages. Thanks.


Amen

[moosemaster]

Like Wyler, I was also a Parent Governor whilst serving, and I agree with most of the points raised.

This will be another stab by central govt to show that league tables work, and that they are indeed taking the concerns of service parents into account by creating a database that shows if service children are indeed adversely effected by moving schools.

It will as always achieve nothing except to provide an accountant somewhere sufficient information to statistically prove that there is no longer a need for BSA.

As for the schools, they will go along with it because there is quite a lot of money to be had from LEAs if they can prove they are "Garrison Schools". Although these were officially phased out years ago, if the school can prove that (figures from memory only, so please don't quote as too accurate) more than say 60% of their student population herald from service families, then they are entitled to up to 40% more funding per year.

As my kids school shared a fence with my station, this type of census was never instigated because 85% of the school catchment area was MQs (or SFAs now) anyway. I can see why some schools would want to know though.

I personally would return it incomplete, or not at all, just like the infamous "ethnicity" forms.

As for whomever it was questioning your right to approach the Govs, that is what they are there for, especially the Parent Govs. To bring the concerns of the "Parents" to the full board. The clue is in the name really.

[Thaihawk]

The type of information requested by the school,IMHO,should not be divulged to them or anyone else without very good reason,which must be explained in full with any future request of this nature.

It is no secret that a substantive number of people employed in the public sector have political sympathies leaning to the left,and a number are plain 'anti-war' and prominent members of the "peace"movement.

In the wrong hands,this information could be of use to terrorists.

Again,it is no secret that so-called"peace"activists in Britain sympathise with overseas terrorists and hostile governments,and indeed it would not be unkonwn for individuals to pass information on to these groups or countries.

Sounds paranoid,maybe,but NO risks should be taken whatsoever.

Should not the Special Branch or MI5 not be investigating the organisations requesting this information?.

[1.3VStall]

I, too, am a school governor - at the primary school which my elder boy attended and where my younger child currently attends. I want to make a contribution to what I believe (and OFSTED as well) is an excellent school.

However, I am starting to dread the termly Governors' meetings due to the volume of cr@p that comes out from the (overstaffed) County Council. Talk about initiative overload! I feel sorry for the Headteacher as the amount of surveys, targets, returns etc that he has to address are taking him away from his day job: educating children.

Although we have not had a survey like this at my school it does not surprise me in the least and, quite clearly, whoever initiated it has not given the slightest thought to personal security.

[Doctor Cruces]

Is it just me, or has the obvious "tick the no box" escaped everyone's imagination.

:)

Doc C

[steamchicken]

It is no secret that a substantive number of people employed in the public sector have political sympathies leaning to the left,and a number are plain 'anti-war' and prominent members of the "peace"movement.

You are aware the military is part of the public sector - as is MI5?

Again,it is no secret that so-called"peace"activists in Britain sympathise with overseas terrorists and hostile governments,and indeed it would not be unkonwn for individuals to pass information on to these groups or countries.

Sounds paranoid,maybe,but NO risks should be taken whatsoever.

Dunno about paranoid - just libellous.

[charliegolf]

I'm a Head of a primary school in Wales- we do things a bit differently, but most bull****ty things are the same. Couple of thoughts.....

We always ask for place of work for emergency contact purposes. We never give them out. Parent phones, "I've lost Jonny's Dad's number, and I can't give Jonny alift after all, can i have it please?" I say, "No, If you're happy, i'll ring and give the message, or give him your number and you can sort it out"



We do keep them secure.

We get all sorts of bollocks demands to gather ethnicity and nationality info. It's a nause. If a black man witha black kid wants him to be recorded as 'white British', that's what I put- by law.

Pertinent here is that he can also decline to answer.

On this issue, I would have politely informed the LEA that I wasn't requesting this piece of info on the grounds of compromising thesecurity of the children in my care. They'd threaten me, and I'd demand written instruction to me in person. Then i'd write to you boys and girls suggesting you decline to answer. Last throw- I would know you personally, and get you to get the missus to phone the local rag explaining how poor Mr Golf is being leaned on, and we don't want to be compromised. It would go away.

Gorilla suggested putting,
"The information supplied on this form may be inaccurate"

as a jolly jape.

He'd not receive a reply offering a place.:ok:

Stay safe,

CG