Pilots stabbed whilst airborne

[Sqwark2000]

From the TV 3 website

Pilots stabbed at Christurch Airport

Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:14a.m.

There is a full emergency at Christchurch Airport where a plane has just landed.

There are reports that a woman has stabbed two pilots and threatened to blow up a plane.
The pilots managed to land the Jetstream aircraft with nine passengers on board despite their injuries.

The armed offenders squad surrounded the plane on the runway and it is believed the woman has been contained.

We have a camera at the scene and we will bring you more details as they come in.


Sounds like Air National doing the BHE-CHC flight for Eagle.

[Blue Line]

Hope the Air Nat lads are ok

[kavu]

Pilot stabbed, bomb threat at Chch airport
The Press | Friday, 08 February 2008


BREAKING NEWS: A woman has stabbed a pilot and threatened to blow up a plane at Christchurch airport.
The Jetstream aircraft from Blenheim, with seven passengers aboard, landed safely at Christchurch airport shortly after 8am.
The flight was Air New Zealand NZ2279 from Blenheim to Christchurch, Radio New Zealand reported.
The stabbed pilot was able to walk off the plane, but was rushed to hospital.
Police surrounded the aircraft on the runway, and the woman has been contained.
The bomb squad has been called in to defuse a device, thought to have been in the woman's bag.
John Hartevelt, a press.co.nz reporter at the scene, said the airport was closed and flights have been cancelled.
The people aboard the plane have been taken into a private room inside the airport by police. There were no injuries among the passengers.
Wayne Johnstone, a passenger on board another flight to Invercargill, said he was asked to get off his flight and he saw police surrounding the aircraft involved.
He said there was a sniper on the tarmac, and police rushed into the plane.
"I saw a dog go in, the passengers came out in a rush, then the woman came out, bundled to ground and searched by police and taken away.''
Traffic has been stopped around the traffic and there are widespread delays.

[PA31 pilot]

Crazy! :sad:

I hope the pilot concerned makes a full recovery.

PA31

[Mat Finish]

So how did this demented woman get a knife (sharp object if not a knife) through security?



Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..:suspect:

[Red max]

Guns For Pilots :ok:

[flyitboy]

New to this forum & can't believe what I've read this morning. How come this can happen afterall the travelling public have endured by way of security measures?
No doubt this will essculate to some degree
F

[PA31 pilot]

For those from not around here..........

There is no security on domestic turbo-prop flights in NZ,
no cockpit doors on the J32 either, just a curtain.

Might all change very quickly though..............:ok:

[Old 'Un]

Mat:

No or minimal security at airports served by a/c carrying < 90 pax (stand to be corrected on actual number). It's even been possible to fly WN-CH in an ATR72 and not be 'scanned' before boarding. Pax are currently streamed to either non-screened or 'sterile' areas depending on type (seating capacity) of a/c at larger airports; straight through at smaller airports.

I recently travelled on a CH-WN ATR flight and discovered at my destination I was accidentally carrying a boxcutter knife in the bottom of my carry-on briefcase. :uhoh: :O

I daresay as a result of today's incident the cost of flying internally in NZ will now increase as all airports instigate full security measures for all a/c. That might get interesting in places like Gisborne or Hokitika where, just for starters, security fences will need to be installed. Armed guards at Canterbury Aero Club perhaps? Hmmm...

The knee-jerk reaction should be forthcoming shortly.

Le Vieux

[Buster Hyman]

So KiwiChicks RNZAF career isn't going to plan then????:confused:

[hoggsnortrupert]

Being Managed Security:

Recently ( January 24th)I flew from New Plymouth airport to Christchurch via Wellington (and change of machinary)

No security checks at my departure point.

At wellington we had a security check, I asked WHY? I was told that Because it was a BOEING Flt : A BOEING Flt I replied!!! why I asked is a BOEING more important than a Turbo Prop? No answer! a blank stear ensued.

I replied, are the lives on the BOEING more important than the lives on other equipment? or is it that the BOEING will make a bigger hole?

The reply :mad::mad:SIR! THAT IS NOT FUNNY AND I SHALL WARN YOU KNOW THAT ANYMORE COMMENTS SUCH AS YOU HAVE JUST MADE AND YOU CAN TELL IT TO THE POLICE AND SECURITY!!!!!!!!:mad:mad::}:}

As the yanks say go and figure!:confused::confused:

I would like to know though! is it an airport managers decision, an operators decision, a security chiefs decision to manage security this way.

AS I SAY IN MY TITLE WHAT A :mad::mad::mad::mad:------g JOKE.

To the crew:

Recover well.:ok::ok::ok:

Chr's
H/Snort.

[Indianzz]

Like "Old 'Un" I now await the illogical knee jerk reaction to this incident.

This woman in one demented moment will have further added to the multiple frustrations that is modern air travel.

I figure that within five years only the crew will be allowed on aircraft and only after they have been stripped naked, x-rayed and their carry on bags forwarded by sea.

[Updraft]

Anyone know pilots' names yet? Wife's cousin (RH) is with Air National and not contactable at moment.

[mattyj]

..woman was Somali..:rolleyes:

[Sqwark2000]

Scuttlebutt from the Ops room says Somali woman planned event as revenge for police actions against mother.....

[RENURPP]

We are kidding ourselves if the "Joke" we call security screening will solve these problems.

Indianzz has it right, wait for Helen to come up with the inevitable knee jerk reaction, probably before lunch!!

[Buster Hyman]

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/02/08/nz_suspect.jpg

Okay, perhaps it isn't Kiwi Chick then....

[Fliegenmong]

Well I suppose the TSA will now ban any aircraft that has ever landed in or even flown near to NZ from landing at any US port. :ugh:

[blueloo]

http://www.straightupsearch.com/archives/mr_t_blue.jpg

[Buster Hyman]

"Pity the Foo..."

[Chocks Away]

"No screening for smaller commuter aircraft at regional ports"... etc etc
Australia (mainland:}) went through all this argument some years back and what came out was the catch-phrase "it's all about affordable safety". :ugh:

Well, until one of these bureaucrats themselves or a close relative is harmed by these rules/non screening, my guess is nothing will change here...:confused:

The security at most airports, has alot of holes in it (worldwide) and is over the top in some places, to the exclusion of more important things... ie scanning for knives (aka this incident) instead of the fascination with scanning for liquids etc.

The "big picture" of safety can easily be lost and has already in many ports.


(Love the shot of Mr T, Blueloo:ok:)

[Sqwark2000]

Updraft, check your PM's

S2K

[hoggsnortrupert]

Buster: Okay, perhaps it isn't Kiwi Chick then....

She's in disguise Buster!, she's in disguise.

Dig the Navel!:E

Chr's
H/Snort

[campin_hobo]

Anyone remember when the last major security breach was on a regular passenger service?

Unfortunately you cannot catch them all but making them wander through the X-Ray machine wouldn't hurt.

Reckon it'll hurt consumer confidence in the domestic airlines very badly? my relatives don't particualry like getting on the small ones in the first place.

[airtags]

Without deviating from the thread title too much, Chocks quite rigtly wrapped it with the comment that the big picture regarding security is often lost.

- just stand back and watch the slf go through any screening point and count the inconsistencies. Seems that for all the pollie banter and the mega dollars spent it appears that there is neither a basic standard nor a common level of calibration.

F'instance I had a 'full & frank' debate with the screening supervisior at PER a few months ago. This high intensity professional believed that it was perfectly normal for the woman in front of me to pass her huge chunky jewellery made from what looked like plumbing fixtures around the detector along with her supersize cup of juice and child's pram complete with nappy bag...........and if that logic is not bad enough the operator actually stepped over and wheeled the pram around the detector for her.

and at SYD domestic last week - a very helpful man at the screening point suggested very loudy that I and another crew member walk through the 'other' detector as [quote] "it is not as sensitive as this one"........ A number of pax in front and behind me obviously heeded his advice and immediately swapped lines!

I'm sure we could fill a dozen pages with examples but it all comes back to the fact the security big picture is often a little blurry.....or should that be myopic?.......

[wessex19]

watching sky news, they claim the woman was a Somali national

[Capn Bloggs]

Guns For Pilots
The quicker the better. I hate leaving my mates Smith and Wesson in my crewroom locker before I go flying...:}

[Jabawocky]

Buster ...I have seen a couple of pics if kiwichick.........there is a slight resemblence, but there is no P51 tatoo on her back, so it can't be!:}

lucky for her.....we could have been mistaken!!!!:E

J:ok:

Clearly she is head down and ar$e up at the RNZAF.....or there would have been a post or too by now!

[Islander Jock]

The security industry is rubbing it's hands with glee at this one.

I wonder how Chubb or Group 4 will go trying to recruit screening officers in Wiluna?

[Buster Hyman]

but there is no P51 tatoo on her back, so it can't be
Hmmm...have a closer look. If there's one there resembling a B17 then you may be onto something.....:oh:

[L J R]

Kwick, launch the RNZAF fighters to deal with national security - you know, the fighter fleet that all other countries have on stand-by ready to shoot down a hijacked aircraft......no wait, ....oops no RNZAF - bugger!

....so how long will it take for the ex Kiwi knucks in their F-18s take to get to the scene from Willy..


..don't forget to say sorry to Dick whilst holding at Nobby's though.

[burty]

Nice work mighty mouse

[RENURPP]

Anyone remember when the last major security breach was on a regular passenger service?
Yep, wasn't that long back they found some granades on an Air North flight, last year I think??
Only recently, last weekend the papers were running stories about a person who was auditing security, he walked through with a hand gun and it wasn't picked up. That happened at several ports. (major ports)
The reality is all sorts of items get through, the saving grace is that the person who has control of the item doesn't intend using them as weapons. :D

[1279shp]

TV3 just opened their coverage of the 'hikacking attempt' with Geoff Hampton(spelling) outside Christchurch airport.

A part of his recap of the days events he, in an award winning moment, stated the women made a "grab for the joystick".:D

Then later, reporting the women had demanded the plane go to Australia, added "I don't think it would have enough AvGas on board".

That can be forgiven, but a joystick?! Come on man!:(

Look for bulletin on 3news.co.nz

PS: I'm first joystick holder of the day tomorrow too. Must ensure there's enough AvGas in the tanks! I'd like to see the big GE running on 172 fuel! :cool:

[Cypher]

Good work by the crew...

Deport her back by boat I say...!

[1279shp]

Oh and John Campbell promoting his show, standing in front of a Q300 saying "I've just travelled on this plane and had no security check" even more proof that the media really are f :mad: ing muppets when it comes to covering anything aviation!

Lets take bets for how long it will be before there's a Government committee setup to investigate "flying security and airport checks in NZ".

[Flying Binghi]

Obviously they dont have ASICs and airport security fences in N.Z. or this would never have happened :E

[Capt Wally]

..........yet again another 'horse' has bolted before something is done............I guess that's the way humans react.............let's not do too much 'till 'after the event' !:)

I love the way that nothing gets done 'till AFTER it happens. That not only applies to aviation either ! The road toll is out of control for Eg, oh then best we (the GOVT) do something about it over say the next 5 yrs !! Humans need protecting, from themselves !

Where lucky here that this crazed woman didn't complete what she probably wanted to. But next time & there will be a next time they (the pilots & pax) my not be so lucky!

Best wishes to those involved. Congrats to the drivers

CW

[Capt Wally]

....what GE ? & all turbines will run on C172 fuel all day long !
In fact they will run on chicken ****e given enough encouragement !:)

CW:)

[ATCO1962]

Easy solution, really. Hog tie all pax before boarding and have a few air marshals on each Jetstream looking like Mr T and wearing scary uniforms with "Security R Us" emblazoned on them. Problem over.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Just strengthens the case for racial profiling.

[capt.cynical]

The PC Thought Police have probably beem called,:(

[Mahatma Kote]

Hello,

Various news agencies report different details about the aircraft and the incident.

By the photos it is ZK-ECN which shows up on internet searches as a BAE Jetstream 31.

However TV one in NZ says it is a Beechcraft. Eagle Air also only says they run Beechcraft 1900s

NZ Herald refers to it as a Jetstream 32 (presumably a variant on the 31)

This anomaly, plus the various 'two bombs found on board' versus 'two knives found' or 'several cuts on the pilot's hand' versus 'severe cuts on the pilots hand' lead me to believe that news organizations are perhaps not reliable.

Does anyone have actual information?

Thanks

[1279shp]

... a J32 operated by Air National who have five in total.

It was being used by Air New Zealand LinkEagle Airways - Air National do a lot of work for Eagle using J32's and a DHC8-100.

Eagle has a fleet of 18 1900D's themselves. :ok:

As for comment on news media not being reliable ... don't get any of us joystick holders started! :oh:

[1279shp]

Not written well.

Longish story but flew a PT6 engined twin over 400 miles back home once - over water the whole way - on lubed up AvGas. :cool: Ran a bit hot but was fine! ;) Though I was running a tiny bit. Much trust for Messrs Pratt and Whitney but wasn't 100% on the quality of the AvGas!! :ooh:

I've seen a vid of the big GE running on water! 5 ton of water a minute flowing through it??!!:eek:

[wildguntz]

I don’t think we will ever stop these idiots boarding aircrafts but at least put cockpit doors instead of curtains on all commuter aircraft that have aisles. At least that way they’ll stop attacking the pilots! or more seriously enter the cockpit an aim the plane towards a crowded stadium.

[flaps 1]

Apparently one pilot with hand wounds ,the other was stabbed in the foot ......:bored: and wanted to go to Australia ......:rolleyes:
Obviously she had nt thought this plan through ..hehe..

[rottenlungs]

As a lowly slf, my feeling is that additional security on the non-jet domestic routes is unnecessary.

It strikes me that these security breaches are pretty rare here in NZ, and that the cost / hassle / 'jobsworths pissing us off' factor is not worth it.

Like the avsec guy said, the same incident could have happened on a train / bus / ferry just as easily and no-one is clamouring for security on the Interislander..

Having grown up in Europe, I think its great relief not have go through security all the damn time.

Cheers

James

[Buster Hyman]

I guess the 'Pacific Solution' has some merit after all.....:(

[Cypher]

Like the avsec guy said, the same incident could have happened on a train / bus / ferry just as easily and no-one is clamouring for security on the Interislander..


A train bus or ferry.. all is well.. I don't think you can really compare that to an aircraft. Theres more at stake.

The train driver gets killed, the train stops.. eventually.. or can be made to stop from the outside.

The bus driver is killed, the bus hits a lamp post, it stops.

The ferry crew, are incapacitated... the ferry still floats, there is time to get people off or a marine pilot on..

The aircrew are killed.. the plane crashes, everyone dies on board and a few people unlucky on the ground..

I think theres a little more at stake with an aircraft...:ugh:

[Flying Binghi]

I think theres a little more at stake with an aircraft


N.Z. - a place where many roads are attached to the side of mountains.

Disgruntled coach (bus) PAX cuts drivers throat - then steers still moveing coach off side of mountain. 50+ dead.


Ferry boat

Disgruntled PAX overcomes helmsman when near docking - ferry taken at max speed into dock. Including a possible fire, who knows the fatalitie count - including amongst those standing on the dock.


The avsec guy is spot on.
Theres only more at stake in an aircraft if you value an A/C PAX life more highly then a Bus/Boat PAX life - or if you happen to be on it your self.

[lowerlobe]

Flying Binghi....

As we talked about on the other thread I don't think you understand the psychology involved in an aircraft incident.

I have no argument at all about the value of life regardless of the circumstance.However,there is something about aviation that conjurs up an image still to this day no matter how safe air travel is.

How many crew were killed when the space shuttle disasters happened?

What happens when an aircraft such as the 777 in Heathrow makes a spectacular landing and with no fatalities but is on the headlines for days.PPrune itself nearly fell over with the sheer volume of hits on it's web site.....

But.....How many people will die on the roads this weekend around the world and will barely be mentioned in the press......

[Flying Binghi]

Lowerlobe,

there is something about aviation that conjurs up an image still to this day no matter how safe air travel is.


I agree with you there.

And I still think we pilots need to point out that aircraft are not the only way to get killed... spread the load, so to speak - probably what the avsec guy was doing (whats an 'avsec' guy by the way)

[roamingwolf]

mate I can see what your saying but how are you gonna do it?

Hers an ad in the NZ papers sponsored by the pilots union.

"No one got killed this week flying but they will in their cars"

How can you get the message across to the average punter who wears ugg boots,drinks bundy and coke for breakky,needs a cab to find the airport and thinks that they have to study for a pregnancy test?

[Wingman09]

Justice system should make a stand on this sought of behaviour. At least deport the bitch!! Interested to know how other fello passangers took her threats, me personaly would have had satisfaction in using necessary force to retrain her.

[roamingwolf]

i reckon stoning might be a bit over the top but your right about the deporting bit.
If a refugee or anyone has been lucky enough to get a visa or citizenship and you carry out a violent crime I reckon you and the whole family should be deported back to the country where you came from.if that happened i reckon that some of them might pay a bit more attention to what their kids are doing instead of letting them cause violence and damage.
if a country is nice enough to let them stay because their own country is a bunfight and is dangerous fair enough but this woman who stabbed the pilots is probably a sausage short of a bbq but why should new zealand pay for her to stay in some hospital.she's only going to get out some time and other people are at risk.
send her back home.

[Capt Wally]

yeah soz 1279shp was a bit vague I guess. I've also flown a twin powerd PT6 on Avgas, although it was a 'shandy' the only thing I noticed was that the exhaust outlets where grey. That reminded me of my cars tail pipe also being greay after running on Avgas. There are limitations with the running of avgas on the PT6 such as the amount versus time etc.
Some video footage of water ingestion testing of new hi-pypass engines is incredible to watch. Wouldn't want some of that to get into the mags now would we?:E

CW

[conflict alert]

Flying Binghi

(whats an 'avsec' guy by the way)


aviation security

[slamer.]

Hmmmm.....from the NZ Herald

She also injured her back when she fell from a ladder while picking fruit in Hastings, leaving her on sickness benefit. She settled in Wellington with other Somali refugees, but soon moved away from the community and is understood to have begun drinking and getting involved in petty crime, before moving to the South Island in search of seasonal work.

After spending time in Nelson, the woman moved to Blenheim three years ago.
In November 2004, New Zealand First leader Winston Peters raised concerns about Abdille, asking questions in Parliament of the Immigration Minister at the time, Paul Swain.

Speaking under parliamentary privilege, Mr Peters said the woman had a "police record a mile long" and had been "bludging off the New Zealand taxpayer" for 10 years.
He said she had been trying to bring 14 of her relatives to New Zealand and had a record of convictions that would make Al Capone proud.
While in Blenheim, she was joined by her deaf sister. Months later, the sister is understood to have obtained help to move from Blenheim to get away from her sibling.
The Weekend Herald understands the sister is now a resident of a Christchurch deaf school.


.............:rolleyes:

[NZScion]

Hopefully we don't get the knee-jerk reaction from this that we are all expecting. I think a movement to implement reinforced cockpit doors on this kind of aircraft would be a good idea, however security screening all pax for these kinds of flights will be financially inhibitive.

[Pitch Attitude]

Anyone been to Canada. Their version of affordable security is way different to NZ.

Even prior to 9/11 they were conducting explosive residue test on all hand luggage at Vancouver (presumably other intl) and all paxfrom one-horse towns (i.e. Smithers) to an Intl airport were x-rayed, searched, etc.

Must be the exchange rate.

[Higs]

Maybe she wanted to go to Aus because she knew that they would let her go and then give her welfare and ......say sorry..:confused:

[roamingwolf]

Nah,she's a six pack short of a slab and we would have sent her to nauru or back to the east islands:E.

[The Hill]

I agree, something needs to be done to secure the cockpit from the cabin. Just two problems, one, no hostie, so crew need to keep an eye on pax (eg in case passenger gets ill etc)
two, theres no emergency exit from the cockpit..........will be interesting to see the outcome of this.........if any................

[mattathm]

STONE the BITCH I say....:D

Lots of pilots have never been in this situation, and I hope i never will. Every one is different and there are no solutions as to what to do...

Congrats to the pilots for making her loose her balance so they could end this ordeal.

We should make a list for everyone to learn of things that could make the Hijacker useless.

Maybe things like....

Opening the cabin dump valve to cause an extremely uncomfortable cabin descent on their ears and catch them off guard

Call for all PAX to fasten seat belts and G the aircraft + and - to an extent they loose balance (i think this is what the crew did)

Fully fine props and close pwr instantly to make them fall forward.

Anything to catch them out... please add to the list:ok:

[roamingwolf]

somethings got to be done and the punter will probably have to pay for it.The easiest thing is x-ray for the punters and the carry on bags.

flight deck doors are good but there is no point if the punters can take something on board to blow the flt deck door off or worse.

if something or someone had picked up her knife then this would not even be a thread or in the papers.

with biggles list of aerobatics to put the hostiles off their feet wouldn't it be better to stop them getting on in the first place.

[slackie]

...but the worst possible outcome of this particular incident (apart from the injury to the crew of course) will be having to put up with a smug Winston Peters saying "I told you so"!!!:mad:

[roamingwolf]

I don't know about you guys over the pond but over here we don't give a rats about what the pollies say.
since when do they know which side is up?

[johnriketes]

NZ is paying the price for it's mass, unselective immigration polices.

Let me tell you something else. The price will become much higher from now onwards.

[wildguntz]

NZ government will probably start arming the crew with Taser's and pepper spray! The New Zealand police force has got plenty of them in stock!

[rottenlungs]

@ Cypher - how do you make a train stop from the outside? As far as I know there is no signal overrun protection down here in the developing world (NZ). Therefore a lunchbox wedged on the dead-mans-handle would be all it took to put the train through the buffers and into the waiting commuters...

I`m not denying the potential impact of a hijack, I think the whole world knows ( and will NEVER be allowed to forget if Uncle Sam keeps the propaganda engine running) what happens when airliners connect with skyscrapers. However in New Zealand we are talking low danger (yes its high impact if it were to happen but the likelihood of an occurrence is tiny) and the cost and hassle of security is just not worth it.

I`m sure growing up in Somalia was no cakewalk compared to NZ / Aus and I can understand how one`s mental state could be compromised. However, given her criminal history it does seem like the NZ authorities should have been taking keener interest in her.

Cheers

James

[Capitaine72]

1279,

Air National haven't operated a DHC8 since it was sold to Vincent Aviation 2 years ago. It is now registered ZK-VAC.

[Cypher]

@ rottenlungs...

Sorry.. made the assumution that NZ trains had some sort of centralised signals and switiching system.. most of them are diesel... only electrified from Hamilton onwards .. where switching the power off oughta work...

I don't usually take the train in Apialand.. because any correlation between the timetable and the time the train actually arrives is pure fluke...

I didn't mean by my comments that any other lives travelling by other means of transport were worth 'less' but simply the fact that with other means of transport, the means to stop and deal with a problem, or get people onboard once the journey has commenced is a lot easier than by travelling by air.

Once the aircraft leaves the ground, no body is getting in.. and possibly out... it's only the crew and pax...

[Sid Departure]

I daresay as a result of today's incident the cost of flying internally in NZ will now increase as all airports instigate full security measures for all a/c. That might get interesting in places like Gisborne or Hokitika where, just for starters, security fences will need to be installed. Armed guards at Canterbury Aero Club perhaps? Hmmm...

The knee-jerk reaction should be forthcoming shortly.


Air travel in the not too distant future!

http://www.ryanair.com/site/notices/images/asprocedures.jpg

Passengers who recently arrived off XY12 from London frantically scearch for their belongings that have been unceremoniously dumped on the foot path outside the terminal.

[Buster Hyman]

How do they stick those blurred boxes on?:uhoh:

[1279shp]

Capitaine721279,

Air National haven't operated a DHC8 since it was sold to Vincent Aviation 2 years ago. It is now registered ZK-VAC

My bad - I saw the thing on touch down last week and didn't even notice it had Vincent on it and no blue circle. Isn't it a nice - if not older - one??

shp

[Capitaine72]

1279,

It is the same one and in just as good a condition

[aviatorguy]

Herald online article mentioning acertain JG as CEO of Air Nat. Is that the same dropkick that got the sack from Ansett NZ years ago?

[LPS500]

@ johnriketes of nyc: NZ is paying the price for it's mass, unselective immigration polices.

What is the basis of this comment? Are you an immigration specialist?

I realise this is a bit of a thread drift , but as far as "mass, unselective immigration polices" go I can assure you, as a New Zealander trying to import his wife and kids to NZ there are no "mass, unselective immigration polices" involved, try thousands of euros and 6 months wait time!

[Capitaine72]

aviatorguy,

The one and the same but I don't think that has any bearing on this particular incident

[pakeha-boy]

Quote....."Anything to catch them out... please add to the list"


......carry an H&K 40M SW....Like I,m allowed to do and shoot the barstard(s)

(of course there will be soft-cocks out there opposed to these measures,......cant please everyone)join the real world boys....it will and can only get worse...kiwi is no different from most of the aviation world...many would like to think is :ugh:

nice to see the boys came through this sagarso alive......

[alangirvan]

This has got nothing to do with Immigration policies. The Oklahoma bombing was done by an American. The London Underground bombings were done by people who were born in the UK.

Did anyone watch the show on Prime last night at 10 30 pm about the Madrid Train bombings? An Urban Railway system is more dangerous than the airline system, because you cannot X Ray everyone using every station on the network. Even Sydney Airport handles a tiny number of people compared with the Sydney rail network. How do you check every one on the rail network who has a mobile phone or mp3 player?

Security is done on the risk likelihood of a possible offender getting into the system at a small airport. 9/11 was caused by people who started their flights at small regional air fields, so they found a way in there. If you give a small airliner a secure cockpit door, the bad person can still carry a bomb on board, or shoot a gun in the cabin. Not just immigrants. An American shot down a PSA 146 with a gun in the cabin.

Is the security worth it on a small plane? Isn't that why we pay the security levy when we buy a ticket? If Blenheim Airport has to install X Ray equipment and passengers have to submit to having their cabin bag searched, at least now they know why the job has to be done, and why the cost has to be paid.

[aerostatic]

Lots of media beat up over this incident. Shock horror over no security screening for commuter flights and so on. As has already been pointed out any nutter can walk onto a bus, ferry or into your local supermarket/cafe and cause mass casualties.

The problem is that so many people already have an irrational fear of flying and any incident such as this simply feeds that fear. The media loves to feed fear too - it's how they generate readership (or viewers/listeners) and therefore advertising revenue.

I'm not saying that nothing should change as a result of this incident but a balanced response is needed.

As to the bigots going on about racial profiling and immigration I ask you this - what was the nationality and skin colour of the person who attempted to hijack a B717 in Australia a few years back? Race has nothing to do with it - especially when it comes to mentally disturbed people.

[pakeha-boy]

Quote..."Is the security worth it on a small plane? Isn't that why we pay the security levy when we buy a ticket. If Blenheim Airport has to install X Ray equipment and passengers have to submit to having their cabin bag searched, at least now they know why the job has to been done, and why the cost has to be paid."""

Alan...would agree with that statement wholeheartedly......shame we have to have incidents like this to further your point......

...but even the best security,will not catch these clowns,they know this.....and the policy of arming pilots ,like myself...... is proof that the best security measures dont always work,thats why we have this programme....Ive debated this issue before,and many disagree with my stand ......so be it,and well argue it until the cows come home.....but the cockpit must be protected at all costs.....there are other ways for sure,but they are not in place...so what do you do in the meantime......

alan ...was in Wgtn last week for the 7,s...had a lovely time(from what I remember)

[Pinky the pilot]

......carry an H&K 40M SW....

I'd be rather hesitant to permit anyone whom is not a regular and experienced competitor in pistol shooting sports to carry one of those Pakeha-boy. Or any pistol for that matter.

The average Police Officer here in Australia carries a side arm and most of them could'nt hit, as my late Father used to say,
''A bull's arse with a handfull of wheat''
simply because they don't have sufficient training and practice with the pistol or revolver that they are issued.:eek:

Remember that a bullet once fired has to stop somewhere, and if the target is missed.........:uhoh:

For the record; I am a member of a Pistol Club and a regular shooter.

[alangirvan]

I agree the cockpit has to be safe at all times, but those security measures are like the security screens in a Bank - the Staff are safe, but customers look out for themselves.

We spent all our time on the other thread discussing small jets, and saying that airports where the planes are less than 90 seats do not need the upgraded security measures. If my (pretend) airline was in a position to operate 70 seater jets or Q400s, I think I would want the passengers to go through the screening that people in big planes put up with. In small towns, do the banks or medical facilities have reduced security because they think a smaller town is a lower risk?

[Flying Binghi]

One way to control the pax - handcuff them all to their seats before take off.

More realisticly, I think just do as some are attempting to do - educate the public that traveling on these small comuters is no more dangerous then other forms of transport. There is a risk, but thats life.
Safety costs money - How safe do you want to be, or, how much are you prepared to pay to travel.

Increased pre boarding checks would help, but how would you find a carbon fibre stabing knife ? - doesnt show up in metal detecters.

[pressed_on]

Reading the weekend herald yesterday.....

FRONT PAGE... "(The plane was) an Eagle Air Beechcraft 19-Seater".....

SAME PAPER A FEW PAGES IN

Photo of The jet-stream with Air Nationals livery clearly visible for all to see...

We trust these people to bring us up to date and accurate news from around the world and they cant even get these details correct...? But this is the same thing happening all the time, media making the mistakes...How about they get a reliable aviation source....arrghhhhh end rant.

PO

[+TSRA]

Thats the media for you. I remember a long time ago being called at work from a reporter in Wellington when a plane had a$$ed up in Rotorua. The guy stated he was from CAA and wanted me to go to the airport (I was out and the phone was transfered to my cell) to find out details. Naturally I told the guy to call the fire hall and it was only then he told me he actually worked for the Herald...my trust of the media dropped that day.

At any rate (4%) does anyone know who the crew were yet? Im over in Canada and all they have said it "something happened".

[talespin]

Friday's fracas reminded me of this one a few years ago: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article880632.ece - startling similarities (and I think Norway introduced screening for regional flights the following year?)

More realisticly, I think just do as some are attempting to do - educate the public that traveling on these small comuters is no more dangerous then other forms of transport. There is a risk, but thats life.
Safety costs money - How safe do you want to be, or, how much are you prepared to pay to travel.

I think that's spot on, Flying Binghi. There has to be a sensible threshold based on a realistic assessment of the risk. Post-9/11 security measures have been geared towards preventing catastrophic terrorist incidents (hijack, sabotage, etc), because that's where the worst case scenarios are. You can do that, probably to a not insignificant extent I imagine, based on experience, intelligence and investigations as far as the organised groups go, and Aus & NZ have set their security thresholds according to their respective Govt assessments, I would suppose. But no one can predict what a lone nutter is going to do.

At least the early signs are that there shouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction in response to this incident. Though if it had ended differently... :sad:

Maybe this is the way to go after all:
http://www.gonomad.com/corp/media/0604/images/naked-air-022.jpg

[FUN.LEVER.FORWARD]

:) Nice photo :)
But I can see at least two places a weapon could be smuggled aboard and a very small pistol plainly in view :cool:

[pakeha-boy]

pinky mate.....couldnt agree more,no argument here,....believe me mate,I,m only doing it because we are running into brick walls when it comes to solving this dilemma and I refuse to let happen to me what happened to the boys on 911........

....but the programme is running well and the use of FAM,,s is working,they are a deterent,and most of us take the time "sharpen our skills"......there is of course a huge chance of not finding ones target....dont argue that at all,but until we start coming up with "meaningful solutions"....Ill go with the solution(that suits my situation)as of now......mate!!! I,m as pro-active about finding solutions as the next joker......but look at whats at stake here.....endless arguments for sure

......my moneys on the fact that if you are on my aircraft and somebody tries to take it away for any reason,you can be assured that I will do my best ,at all costs ,not to let it happen........dont know what else to tell you.


by the way......I noted your note,and most of us can find the side of a barn door as well

[Red max]

I think it's a good precautionary measurements to have at least one gun in the cockpit , as far as real bullets i don't think it's a good idea they might get into deeper **** if the bullet misses so rubber bullets or whatever they are called, Or Taser guns or something to incapacitate them.

Every airplane should have a small box labeled (Anti - terrorist tool kit) it should contain a gun a taser and handcuffs .:}

[Van Demon]

Here in Oz, in many of the capital city airports you go through security first and then can hit the shops for your tourist souvenirs. There are so many objects that can be turned into sharp weapons that it ain't funny. A few years back I saw diecast metal model aeroplanes (including a nice pointy Concorde) for sale at Perth airport, right next to the boarding lounges. They are not serious about security; probably far too expensive. Put a door on the cockpit so then at least the crew will protected from a knife attack and the aircraft can return to Terra Firma with most of the passengers alive.

[pakeha-boy]

van demon....good point mate!!!

we have now started giving 1st class pax,steal knives with their meals,instead of the plastic ones that were used.......talk about bonehead mgt skills.....these clowns never cease to amaze me.

handed this article(stabbing incident) into our mgt yesterday,cant wait for their reply.....

[flyby_kiwi]

Van Demon,

As has been posted, the problem with a door is that it will require a flighty and i assume another exit from the cockpit.... neither of which a B1900 or J32 have.
I also think it is safe to assume that the smaller destinations such as Wanaka, Kaitaia etc will loose thier service completely before x-rays etc are installed.

I see some tool from the media is bleating on how he managed to take an immitation gun to Napier without being stopped :rolleyes: Its not exactly 'news' rather the obvious.

[doubleu-anker]

pakeha-boy

A knife is a knife, doesnt matter whats it made of if it cuts, it cuts. Even guns can be made of plastic now. A plastic cup or glass can be broken into some very sharp deadly pieces.

A person that has been "security cleared" is still armed with a variety of weapons. eg., a sock and something small and heavy inside it, very deadly indeed. Sharp pencil...... do you want me to go on?

[slackie]

The media are so busy grandstanding reporting the vast array of "weapons" they intentionally took on board <90 seat aircraft. If it were up to me (if I were AVSEC) then I'd be prosecuting each and every one of them...just see what sort of reaction you get if you "jokingly" state that you have a bomb in your briefcase....off loaded minimum.

These journos should be banned from future air travel...see how they do their jobs properly "earthbound".

Fools!

[Pinky the pilot]

Even guns can be made of plastic now

A common misconception. Whilst some parts of some pistols are a plastic of some type, the barrel, bolt head, firing pin and the slide are still steel!

ie; a Glock 17A from memory.

[Flying Binghi]

Aparently, a single use gun (several barrels) can be all non steel. The bullet fireing agent (the gun powder) is the detectable bit - maybe.

[Sqwark2000]

+TSRA

At any rate (4%) does anyone know who the crew were yet?

Both the crew and the injured passenger have court ordered name suppression

[Oh that's super!]

Pakeha-Boy I think the material is quite immaterial. Some of the plastic knives I've used for in-flight meals cut much better than some of the metal ones.

If someone has a bad intent, they can turn anything into a weapon, be that a bottle of wine, a plastic cutlery or even a plastic card or a pen.

[pakeha-boy]

QUOTE...."do you want me to go on?"

nah mate ...please dont....you sound bloody boring already!!!!

no ****e sherlock,......tell you what ...ILL stab you with one of our old plastic knives that bend like my .ol-fella.....then Ill stab you with one of our new steel knives....and well see the difference .........if you cant see the difference and the point I was trying to make .........then....then.....****e ,think Ill have another beer and cry in it:ugh:

[+TSRA]

fair enough...if they dont want to be known then I dont want to know who they are....

[Pinky the pilot]

a single use gun (several barrels) can be all non steel.

Sound a bit too much like something out of Hollywood Flying Binghi.
Can't say I've ever heard of such a thing. And if such a thing does exist, I certainly would'nt want to shoot one!!:eek:

Back to topic...

[Flying Binghi]

a single use gun (several barrels) can be all non steel. Sound a bit too much like something out of Hollywood Flying Binghi.
Can't say I've ever heard of such a thing. And if such a thing does exist, I certainly would'nt want to shoot one

Hello Pinky,

Not hollywood - We have some very interesting gun designers here in QLD Australia.

Would you believe there is a gun being designed that has several bullets loaded in the one barrel at the same time, that can be sequentialy fired - now that is real hollywood stuff. :eek:

[doubleu-anker]

Grizzly Bare

You big grizzly brut!

Come here big b****** as I need a good hung!:O

[cribble]

:( Grizz,
All that's going to do on my jet is to reduce the POB count and increase the freight: I aint opening the door (unless someone offers icecream!)

[Sqwark2000]

Eight Ace,

Can't speak for Air National, but I've worked for AirNZ Link on the B1900 and now the ATR72, and can't say I've had any personal security training at all. The closest would be an hour long discussion, if that during my DG & Aviation Security training which is 2 yr recurrency. The Aviation Security side of the course is the hour long discussion.

Even now they are moving towards on-line DG recurrency so doubtful I get any substantial Security training in the future, unless last weeks events change the plans.

S2K

[eight ace]

Sqwark2000, thanks very much. I know that during our recurrency the one area where FD are actually interested seems to be Security!

[Flying Binghi]

Looks like the Kiwi P.M. is going ahead with increasing costs for small airport commuters.

[jungle juice]

Flying Binghi
Nothing in life is free and I'm sure the pax and crew on that flight would have no objection to added security that would have prevented that woman from bringing any sharp object onto the flight or prevented her from gaining access to the pilots.

After 9/11 I saw an interview with head of security with El Al.They asked him what he would do if he was flying and saw an attacker threatening to harm a passenger if the flight deck door was not opened.

He stated the obvious and that was opening the flight deck door would only endanger the entire aircraft.

It is obvious that we cannot close off the pilots on every aircraft but with pax screening to it is a start.

[slamer.]

I also saw that El Al interview on CNN.

He is the only person who has ever made any sense (to me) on aviation security matters... guess the results speak for themselves.

Interesting to watch how they are now portraying the " stabber " on the Air Nat flight as the victim..

[distracted cockroach]

Without wanting to get too far off topic, of course the stabber was going to be seen as a victim....that's the way this politically correct world is going. No-one is responsible for their own actions anymore. It is always someones else's fault and up to someone else, usually the government or a white pill, to fix it.
Whilst the bad old days of mental institutions had their problems, perhaps society in general was safer before "troubled" (read mentally deranged or mentally ill) people were released into the community without sufficient support services.
The number of nutters (sorry if this is seen as a derogatory term) wandering around is just silly, and there is nothing to stop them getting onto planes, driving cars etc where they put more than just themselves at risk.
I don't want to sound like I am being too cruel to the mentally ill (hell, does that make me politically correct?), but there are some people who would be much better off, as would society in general, if they were confined to a padded cell.
Rant over.

[pakeha-boy]

Quote DC..."of course the stabber was going to be seen as a victim"

....and I cant wait for that type of attitude to change..

..so now I sit in front of a Kevlar,bullet proof door,pack heat,and train for hijack situatons.......so what really is my job???:confused:

[Islander Jock]

Well I guess it was only a matter of time.

Air fares to rise after hijack attempt

By staff writers
February 25, 2008 10:03am
Article from: http://www.news.com.au/images/sources/news_sourcelogo.gif</IMG> (http://www.news.com.au/)
PASSENGERS passing through small airports in New Zealand are likely to pay more in fares after the attempted hijacking of a commuter plane.

After the incident aboard the 19-seater Eagle Airways flight from Blenheim to Christchurch in the South Island on February 8, Prime Minister Helen Clark said some tightening of security was inevitable.
The plane's two pilots and a passenger were injured by a knife-wielding passenger in the incident.
At present, passenger screening and X-rays of cabin baggage are carried out only on flights carrying 90 or more people.
A spokesman for Transport Minister Annette King said Cabinet would decide what measures to impose tomorrow, the New Zealand Press Association reported.
Security staff were likely to carry out random bag searches but cabin baggage would not be X-rayed, he said.
Passengers are likely to pay for any new measures, with Miss Clark previously saying any tightening of security was likely to be recouped on a user-pays basis.
Somali refugee Asha Ali Abdille, from Blenheim, has been charged with attempted hijacking, wounding, and injuring with intent to injure.
She allegedly pulled out a knife on the Air New Zealand flight and demanded to be taken to Australia.
The flight landed safely in Christchurch

[c100driver]

Cabinet is today to consider a report on aviation security following the attempted hijacking of a small plane earlier this month.
The Sunday Star-Times yesterday said the confidential briefing paper would recommend passengers flying on commuter planes with at least 19 seats would be screened.
Currently, passengers on planes with fewer than 90 seats do not undergo x-ray screening.
The proposal has been prompted by the attempted hijacking of an Eagle Air – a subsidiary of Air New Zealand – flight from Blenheim to Christchurch on February 8.
Asha Abdille, 33, appeared in Christchurch District court on Friday on 11 new charges relating to the incident, including threatening to kill, possessing an offensive weapon, and taking a dangerous weapon on to an aircraft.
She was previously charged with hijacking the aircraft and wounding injuring the pilots and a passenger.
Abdille was remanded in custody under the Mentally Impaired Persons Act until next month.
Mr Williamson today said the idea behind anything involving transport was "safety at reasonable cost".
He said the Government needed to weigh up the cost of x-ray screening every passenger on a small plane against the risk of such an attempted hijacking happening again.
"I just think it's over the top, sledgehammer to crack a nut stuff and my advice to the Cabinet this morning is just make sure you're very careful. . .to consider what the costs are."
An alternative would be putting doors in small planes between the pilots and the passengers that the pilots could lock, as was the case with larger planes, he said.
This could be done at far less cost than x-ray screening passengers.
Mr Williamson said the road toll could be brought down from around 400 a year to zero if the speed limit was reduced to 5kph.
"You'd wreck the economy, the country would be completely bankrupt and we'd be sort of out of existence but at least you wouldn't have any deaths on the road.
"Now, the reason why we tolerate around 400 deaths on the road is that, and I know it's a ghastly sentence to use, but it's safety at reasonable cost and I think it would be unreasonable cost that is being advocated here to accommodate a one-off, isolated incident," he said.



Another typical Pollie shooting from the hip. I would doubt if Beechcraft, BAe and Fairchild would even consider an STC for a reinforced cockpit door, or the addition of a Cabin Crew member to supervise pax now that the Pilots are locked away in the flight deck! Oh by the way you now have a 18 seater as the crew take up the extra seat.

[Old 'Un]

Here we go, as predicted earlier, the knee-jerk reaction. Although, I must admit, this reaction was delayed for a considerable length of time. It must be election year.

It still amazes me that the powers that be are still running a (primarily) reactive approach to security. Risk analysis tells us that the risk has always been present but, until now, no-one has 'done' it. The same applies here as to hijackings in the 1960's ("Fly me to Cuba") and, dare I say it?, 9/11. The risk was always there, was probably identified prior to the event, but the risk was considered too low/too expensive to do anything positive about until it happened. How often have we heard the phrase "That's never happened before"?

As is often the case, the flight deck door has been closed after the Somali refugee has allegedly attacked (to misquote an old saying). Yes, the woman needs help/guidance, but where in this PC country is she going to get it?

Cynical? Moi?

Le Vieux

[tinpis]

One a these parked on every plane would keep the punters quiet and facing the front :eek:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x105/kiwiflygirl/my_rifle1.jpg

[cjam]

yeah, nothing like a fresh faced basic training recruit with a styer to make me scared that's for sure. I wonder how many a/c we'd lose with unlawful discharges per annum?

[kiwi chick]

:oh: We haven't had THAT many so far... ;)

[distracted cockroach]

Not to mention the recent negligent discharge of an authorised firearm by a US Air (?) pilot in Texas...where else!! Bullet passed through the fuselage fortunately. If it had gone the other way the F/O may not have lived to fly another day.
I notice PB said he packed heat at work, so it's not that unusual (some sort of "special high intensity training" required no doubt).
Can't say I see that being the answer myself. Much safer behind the locked door getting onto the ground asap, than doing the Dirty Harry business in the cabin.
It's definitely the commuter guys who are at biggest risk...I used to enjoy having passengers sitting up front in the old Chieftain days. Don't know if I'd be so keen now.
Cheers
DC