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wethereyet
6th Feb 2008, 06:55
Unfortunately the REX pilot group does not have much faith in the AFAP, myself included. We all know the history, but that's not an excuse :mad:

We have ourselves to blame!!! There are some poor excuses amongst us who want the T&C's but won't support their union :confused:

Every REX pilot needs to get behind the AFAP NOW - and demand value for money. The AFAP is OUR proffesional negotiator, those of you not in the union should sign up and start putting the pressure on - stop making excuses :yuk:

And Lawrie, you need to realise that you are representing us, at our cost - don't sympathise with the company. If you cannot do this we need another negotiator. THIS EBA, in the environment we are negotiating in will show your true value, if we don't make some serious ground we need a new union.

The company will pay what it has to for pilot labour, just as it will for fuel - and not a cent more. It is something we do have control over, we need to set minimums which are acceptable over the long term and we must be willing to withdraw labour through stike action if they don't come up with the money.


Come on all, start acting like men (and women) :)

Jenna Talia
6th Feb 2008, 07:02
Forget about the AFAP. Everyone put in some dough and collectively hire a private negotiator.

wethereyet
6th Feb 2008, 07:08
That's just one of the pathetic excuses I hear from those who won't support the union. :hmm:

Thanks for your reply, but that is in fact a waste of space.

Those that won't pay their union won't pay a negotiator - they will say yes but the money will never show. So please make a useful contribution and not one that undermines the ability of our union to improve our T&C's.

By the same token our union needs to know that if they don't provide us with what we are paying for we will look elsewhere.

neville_nobody
6th Feb 2008, 07:14
And what happens if the company says we can't afford that because of (insert lame excuse here) and will happily park aeroplanes as it has done in the past.

What next?

Are you willing to walk away from flying for REX just to get a rise, because the impression I get is that is what it will take. I don't think industrial action would change management attitude either.

wethereyet
6th Feb 2008, 07:25
The company is critically linked to share price, and if they park aeroplanes their crew will find jobs elsewhere in this environment - and with no other crews available the company would almost entirely fail.

I know the owners are the kind that like to save face, but do you really think they will trash a company that had a total sharemarket value of over 300 million a few months back for an increase in labour costs of 2-3 million per year? they can add up, their not silly though and they will only pay what they think they have to - it is up to us to tell them what that is and not back down.

apache
6th Feb 2008, 07:57
IF you have 100 pilots, paying 1% of their salary for representation, then, to me, you should get ONE negotiator for 100 per cent of the time for one year!!!
I know that people will say "but you get other benefits for what you pay... not just ONE person to look after your needs all the time"....

OK! Fair enough.... so what about a DECENT REPRESENTATION for 50% of the year????(per se)

If there are 100 pilots effectively giving up, in total, ONE pilots salary per year, then can't the union dedicate 20 hours per week to REX???

What do the pilots get at the moment ? 3 hours per week WHEN they ring about a rip off ??20 hours per week WHEN there is an EBA to fold to ?

Come on AFAP... it is time that YOU realised that the members are here for YOU, and that YOU should be there for the members!!!! AFAP members are NOT getting value for money at the moment. And if this trend continues, then, like substandard T&C's with their employer.... they WILL walk!!! then YOU (the afap) will be out of a job!!!!

Pundit
6th Feb 2008, 08:33
Why did the QF guys leave the AFAP in 1981?

Forget them, they are all yesterday's leftover men trying to get left over solutions for hard working pilots who are getting screwed each day by management.

wethereyet
6th Feb 2008, 09:00
Pundit, forget the history... it does not contribute to our present cause.

The AFAP is our (REX) negotiator, and perhaps this is their last chance to be so.

So stop bad mouthing them about the past a contribute something positive to our cause.

Pundit
6th Feb 2008, 09:29
ok wethereyet, good luck.......you'll need it

Lodown
6th Feb 2008, 19:22
In fact the last figures I saw for an entry level marine pilot was $165K.

So, what's holding you back at Rex?

Why do you (as a group) even bother talking about a strike and militancy? You don't need it. There are other jobs out there. Yes, it probably means uprooting your family and moving, but that's what millions of other people and their families do. You don't need to go into a meeting thumping desks and banging doors. It seems obvious that the management have heard your concerns and have elected not to take action on them. Accept that that is as far as you can realistically push the relationship. A strike won't achieve anything more and will probably do the opposite by giving your management the PR high ground, focussing public dissatisfaction and keeping your paycheques on zero for two, four, twelve (?) weeks.

A strike puts everyone into a corner with no way to back down. Local councils are appealing to the Feds and getting upset with Rex management for cutting some services. Do you want those councils sympathising with Rex management and turning their angst onto the pilots when services are cut completely? It's still a small industry. Do you want the tag as a "striking pilot" on you?

Send the message that is most effective and the least disruptive to your families. Take your labour and skills where they are appreciated. Get your resumes out, get your home life in order, consider other offers and leave at the appropriate time. Yes, Rex will have no choice but to raise T & C's or close their doors at some time in the future. Are you prepared to wait and hope on their terms, or leave on yours?

OpsNormal
6th Feb 2008, 19:38
Grivation wrote:

Probably the best organised and most successful unions in Australia are the maritime unions representing >95% of industry participants.

You are quite correct, but I can assure you they (I mean the drivers at places like Sydney Ferries, Stannards etc) are getting stuffed around just as much as most of us in this industry are with long and irregular hours/having no choice about getting called-in off RDOs etc.

Do you know how much money a wharfie, marine pilot, tug driver, marine engineer or seaman etc make?

Yes I do, and I stand by the figures I quoted.

I do agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post though.:ok::D

Crankhandle
6th Feb 2008, 23:09
I'm getting a bit sick of the continueing bickering at Rex, if you fellas don't do something about your T&C's yourselves you're going to be stuck with with what you've got.
Let's face it, there are now and have always been, even going back into the Kendell days, a large group of the pilots who would not join the AFAP, no matter what happens, that group of "know it all dopes" who think they could sought it all out for themselves given half a chance. Well they have all had their chance and not one of them had the guts or the ccourage of their weak ambitions to take the bait, and in the long run have wrecked the proceedings for their own workmates.
The AFAP's weakened base has been caused by fracturing over the years by actions taken by various airline managements, Rex, Qantas, Virgin, Jet*, just to name a few, they have all treated the AFAP with distain, and will continue doing so until you fellas back the AFAP up.
If you don't like the T&Cs you have now, just walk somewhere else, the company cares stuff all about you, the CP and his team of sychophants care even less, they are just looking after no;1.
Rex does not care one iota about years of service, experience or ability. They are probably the most nonsavvy management I ever had to work with.
Back up your mates and they will back you up, 'cause no one else will.
Eh! if all else fails, "one out all out, everybody out" and leave the d***s at the top to turn out the lights. Or "shut up and put up."
If the company goes down the tube, it wont be the first and there is always somewhere else for you to go, but the bossboys will be loosing a lot of the only thing they care about.:ugh:

Like This - Do That
7th Feb 2008, 01:32
Grivation skippers and engineers aren't MUA. AIMPE for the engineers, and skippers/mates are AMOU .... certainly in the case of the AIMPE it was capitulation after capitulation during the 1990s.

Ts&Cs down, engineers out of the engine room pulling ropes, crewing levels slashed etc etc

Sound familar?

nocomplane
7th Feb 2008, 02:31
REX pilots are the best in the world,just ask them.
You people need to realise that if REX management let the company go down someone will take it on, the towns that they service will make it happen look at all profitable routes that companies have gone bust on in the past most still have services.
Rex people also need to pull your heads out of each others A###S and look around you deserve what you get.
The person that started this thread I hope you do well sounds like you are the only one with anything between your legs but you are trying to rally a bunch of w#####s that are to chicken to stand up for themselves.
The reason other unions are strong is because the members stick together we have pole climbers that will watch you hang for there advancement.
Well thats my 2 cents

apache
7th Feb 2008, 11:03
AFAP ????

maybe you should put the ultimatum to Lawrie, and the rest of those Eunuchs... and say... "Hey.... do your best. If we do NOT nlike it, we will vote the EBA down, AND.... we WILL get new representation!!!" ie... not JUST strike against the company, but also a Strike AGAINST the AFAP!!!!

I am Sure that the TWU etc will LOVE to meet 300 odd members who DO have the fortitude to take their future in their own hands!!!!!!

It is time to put the AFAP on notice.... TELL them that THIS is their LAST chance!!!! stand up... or F**K OFF!!!!!!!

What amuses me about the AFAP, is that they WILL post here when they think that they have something to say which conveys their supposed position.... but when people at the coalface voice their discontent they hide and sionk their heads in the sand and thionk that all is rosy because "we don't read pprune! "... LAWRIE!!!!!!!!! you have proved that you DO read these forums. What is your position here please ?

rescue 1
8th Feb 2008, 08:15
Maritime Industry - Sydney Sea Pilots Pty Ltd - Launch Crews Award 1998.
Aggregate salaries

Master (with Engineer Qualifications)
$61,543.00 pa
Seaman
$47,925.00 pa


How do you get $165K? Admittedly the final pay would be plus super and extras???

Perhaps its gone up since 1998 due to crew shortages? ;) Couldn't find the latest data.

missing link
8th Feb 2008, 11:54
Get behind the AFAP, they will look after you - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, good one - here's an idea, pool your subs money have a big barbie and piss up then take it up the oight - the result will be the same but at least you get a feed!!!! When will you idiots wake up- Lawrie and his merry dimwits are there for the company - NOT YOU! EAA have many EBA'S to prove it. Here is how it will go, you put your log of claims to Lawrie- he says "They will never go for it" better water it down - "Here is what you should put forward" - "But Lawrie- that is worse than we had", "Well commercial pressures and all - you should accept it "IT'S THE BEST YOU WILL GET" .........................Sound familiar. You can quote me after your next EBA. Bring on the TWU I say!:D

Dark Knight
8th Feb 2008, 22:31
You forget one `small thing' - a Union is comprised of its members, ie you, who collectively manage said union and hire professionals to manage pilots indusrial affairs.

(Conversly, others hire professional pilots to fly them safely from A - B)

A union is only as strong as its members make it and, more importantly, only achieves the best results for its members from the concerted, united strength of these members.

if you have a problem with your union, you have a problem with yourselves, individually or collectively.

Get in there and fixit - no one else will.

If all put as much time into their union as they do whingeing on PPrune then something constructive just may be achieved.

As Captain Trevor Corbett (RIP) said many, many years ago: "Dining table & bar talk may be highly entertaining but achieves little!"

DK

missing link
9th Feb 2008, 23:30
Dark, you know nothing- the EAA pilot council is a sub branch of the AFAP, meaning THE UNION TELLS THEM WHAT TO DO............members effectively have no say or control, just the way Lawrie likes it. You can ask for resolutions all you like and THEY decide what action and when.
The morons in Sydney who thought that one up are a bright bunch - we are still suffering today.

Don Diego
10th Feb 2008, 04:23
Dark Knight,spot on with that last post,couldn't agree more.:D
Missing Link,get some help mate as you are in a bad way.:ugh:

maui
10th Feb 2008, 22:29
Have only just looked at this thread, and determined as I read, to express some concern at the attitude of some who post here. However the Dark one has beaten me to it.
Gentlemen it IS your organisation, which will do what you as a democratic majority, ask of it. All they (you) require to make it work is committment and a bit of involvement.

Missing Link, you would do yourself a great big favour if you read and absorbed what has been offered to you in the way of advice from one considerably older and wiser than yourself.

The only thing I would add to the Dark one's post is that if indeed you have been told by your negotiator, that "that is all you could achieve", perhaps he should have said: "that is all you can achieve given your individual reluctance to contribute, and your collective reluctance to accept solidarity."

Maui

Stubby
17th Feb 2008, 10:54
wetheryet, I think gennatailia said it correctly if the union started to actually do something constructive they may find they get more support. I agree a private negotiator is the way to go.:ugh:

fistfokker
17th Feb 2008, 11:09
Stubby, think about it. A private negotiator gets paid irrespective of the outcome. Under the AFAP, negotiators are pilots working for the company concerned, with assistance from the union. Pilots understand what pilots want and also have a better understanding of what needs to be achieved.

It begs another question. What do you do when the company refuses to negotiate with your private negotiator? What do you do if the company pays your private negotiator for a particular outcome?

Perhaps the reality in the present time is very few in Aus have actually had to put their own job on the line for better terms and conditions, but expect those conditions to be delivered by somebody else, (the AFAP employees in this case) without support from the people they are attempting to help.

wethereyet
18th Feb 2008, 01:19
Stubby, this is the problem. People making excuses upon excuses, I have heard it a million times - why pay the union what have they done for me?

The union CANNOT successfully negotiate without united support from US.:ugh:

Reality is that if we get another second rate EBA, it will be a result of all those sorry individuals who make excuses.

United we CAN achieve an EBA which could make a career with REX a viable alternative.

Stubby
18th Feb 2008, 03:17
weatheryet, i hear what your saying and in an ideal world that would be great, however i do believe that to a large degree the pilot reps are more intimidated by the employer, in comparisson to a private negotiator, who could be performance payed and isnt worried about company reprocussions for sitting at the negotiating table. I think the "proof is in the pudding" so far in REX's history the union has been incredibly ineffective (not to put down the hard work of some individuals) but now its time to look at changing tactics, try another approach??:hmm:

wethereyet
18th Feb 2008, 03:37
Valid point RE: pilot reps. I am sure they mean well but they cannot play hard ball because of the dynamics. Perhaps they are largely ineffective under the current setup, and it is that which needs to be improved.

Our union negotiator should do all the talking at the table - why is it that pilots who are not professional negotiators talking in the presence of management?

Perhaps if our union negotiator did the talking and the reps observed on our behalf to ensure our interests are being adressed, and to report back to the pilot group we may get a better result?