Jetstar EBA 4 results. merged.

[Willie Nelson]

Following a 56% vote against the proposed EBA it would seem that some J* pilots are approaching management for individual contracts under the failed EBA conditions rather than standing by fellow J* pilots who were planning to return to the table. :eek:

The J* pilot group now seems headed toward three independent sets of conditions, AWA for new hires at the bottom with unspecified pay reviews, those under the EBA and a further group of AWA participants on a combination of the two.

So this is how J* got such a bad name in Aussie Aviation :rolleyes:

[Chimbu chuckles]

who were planning to return to the table.

This is where the No voters royally fecked up. There was never going to be a 'return to the table' the day after a No vote, or a week, or month after. This was very clear...didn't they believe what they were told?

If those who voted No didn't believe what they were being told then they were not negotiating in good faith...'good faith' essentially means trust.

Why did they vote NO...because AIPA and AFAP said to?

How many NO voters explored why AIPA/AFAP recommended that course of action?

[speeeedy]

There was never going to be a 'return to the table' the day after a No vote, or a week, or month after. This was very clear...didn't they believe what they were told?

Why would they?

There is no such thing as good faith with these characters.

You will see Chimbu, they'll be back, I am certain of it, although the cause is not being helped by the minority of the minority offering to go on an AWA with the conditions of the defeated EBA. Fools....

[Going Boeing]

CC, I observe the following facts:-

There IS a pilot shortage.
The airlines can afford to pay more (currently experiencing excellent profits & because their opposition will have to pay more, the competitive position won't be compromised).
The management will return to the negotiating table (otherwise crew will leave for higher paying airlines).
Throughout the period of the Agreement (4 years), pilot salaries will increase significantly throughout the world (supply & demand), therefore it is madness to sign up to a shoddy offer.
Any moves by individuals to sign contracts is a very short sighted act which will leave them vulnerable when the shortage is not as severe and it undermines the collective actions of their peers.
It is always tempting to take a payrise now to have immediate access the slightly improved remuneration but by allowing time for negotiations to achieve a better outcome (& make management sweat) the rewards will be significantly better for the rest of their career.

GB

[Willie Nelson]

Chimbu,

I believe even the company had agreed to return to the table in the normal course of its expiry and renegotiate the EBA. Why individuals would run off from the Rank and File and go beg for their own deal is simply beyond the ridiculous.

If DJ pilots, Qantaslink pilots, Qantas Engineers all managed to stick together to obtain better deals this action beggars belief.

[Pundit]

Ambiguity and uncertainty are written into the human condition. We may value 'the truth' and we may value 'not causing harm to other'. Yet there will be times when we know that telling the truth will hurt someone. Sadly today the strong tendency is to conclude that none of this matters and that anything goes. In the end it is all about ethical behaviour and sadly ethics is a barren commodity for many of my fellow pilots.

After I posted the thread "at drinks with AJ" I received several emails telling me to shut up or my career would be put on hold. I stated in that thread that AJ said that if the pilots didn't toe the line he would introduce AWAs.

Last week the pilot group voted. The EBA went down.

Over the weekend I have been pestered by members of the JPC - the people entrusted by us to represent us; not their self interests.

I was told that the JPC and 100 other pilots have all advised AJ that they want to sign AWAs. I have been told that the AWA is the agreement we voted down with one additional clause - when we put a new EBA in place, you can choose to remain on the AWA or move to the new EBA.

"Just ring AJ or Rohan and put your name on the list".

Interesting. It is also interesting that one of the JPC members who was on the outer has gone from being persona non grata to a sim checkie during the course of the negotiations. It is also intersting that this individual is the driving force in the AWA push.

It is a pity that a little transparency could not be applied by AJ and the JPC with a newsletter or the like instead of this clandestine approach. All facts to all people at the same time.

Ethical behaviour is good business.

Any morale that may have existed at JQ is dead. AJ and his management team have to accept a large share of the blame. But, and sadly this is a big BUT, a lack of ethical behavour by the JPC is also a large contributory factor. They have introduced the in fighting that will now erupt. Mark my words.

[Capt Wally]

'Pundit' all I can say is document/write everything down that has been said, threatened & even carried out to date.

Humans also have two major reactive proceedures in place for all ocassions that show threat.. Fight or Flight!...........believe it or not it's the ones that take flight that can be the most destructive.

Stay alert

CW

[drshmoo]

This is indeed a dark dark day. For those who broke the ranks may have forever changed the Jetstar landscape for future collective bargining.

This is a dark day for Australian aviation

[genex]

Oh get over it. This is just a little scrap over pay and whether Jetstar pilots go from being vaguely well paid to adequately paid (still haven't seen the EBA but have the broad figures). It is not Gallipoli or Dunkirk or Stalingrad or Guadalcanal. It is certainly not 1989.

Those who voted "NO" got what they wanted didn't they? Everyone from AIPA downawards on these boards has been telling pilots to look after themselves.

So a few guys do....and all they get is what they would have got anyway if the EBA had got up. Excuse me.......there is a scent of AIPA flavoured over-reaction here.

[fistfokker]

After I posted the thread "at drinks with AJ" I received several emails telling me to shut up or my career would be put on hold. I stated in that thread that AJ said that if the pilots didn't toe the line he would introduce AWAs.

You were not told your career would be put on hold, you were told that when WE, (Jetstar Pilots) "find out who you are, management would be the least of your problems". AWAs had already been introduced at that time, so again you are full of it. Guess what. "WE" now know who you are.

Last week the pilot group voted. The EBA went down.

Over the weekend I have been pestered by members of the JPC - the people entrusted by us to represent us; not their self interests.

I was told that the JPC and 100 other pilots have all advised AJ that they want to sign AWAs. I have been told that the AWA is the agreement we voted down with one additional clause - when we put a new EBA in place, you can choose to remain on the AWA or move to the new EBA.

"Just ring AJ or Rohan and put your name on the list".

I wish I had got that call. You are important.

Interesting. It is also interesting that one of the JPC members who was on the outer has gone from being persona non grata to a sim checkie during the course of the negotiations. It is also intersting that this individual is the driving force in the AWA push.
Now here is another little phurphy. I do understand that this is a rumour network. However NO MEMBER of the JPA representatives has progressed to "Sim Checkie" during the course of the negotiations. No member of the JPA has been involved in a push for AWAs under the conditions of EBA4. Sadly Pundit is really full of misinformation.

It is a pity that a little transparency could not be applied by AJ and the JPC with a newsletter or the like instead of this clandestine approach. All facts to all people at the same time.

Ethical behaviour is good business.

Any morale that may have existed at JQ is dead. AJ and his management team have to accept a large share of the blame. But, and sadly this is a big BUT, a lack of ethical behavour by the JPC is also a large contributory factor. They have introduced the in fighting that will now erupt. Mark my words.

How many Newsletters do you need. There were 5 about the proposed EBA 4at last count.

You are one sad puppy. I suspect that you actually don't comprehend what ethical behaviour means. But that doesn't really matter now. You and your equally illogical colleagues have managed to remove the future from the grasp of all Jetstar EBA pilots. The commands that you thought were coming your way will most likely not now, both narrowbody and widebody. You have collectively contributed to the disintergration of your own aspirations.

There have been no Newsletters regarding future AWAs because there have been no decisions made by J* management in that regard. You are spreading little lies again.

[Far Kinarss]

Don't you idiots learn?
1989
1999 Ansett NZ
49ers @ CX
It's sad to watch.
You're being divided; next you'll be conquered; then you're f@$ked.

[drshmoo]

Farkinarss :D
Spot on

[captaintunedog777]

Silly little man I know who u r as well. Sad thing is you run straight to a rumour mill. Go figure??? U join other idiots with nothing better to do to than to speculate about terms and conditions within Jetstar on this site. U are dangerous!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Speedy/Willie/GB.

The expectation among the No voters, I believe, was that a No vote would galvanise J* management into putting their 'real' final offer on the table despite them being repeatedly told that this was the real offer and that a No vote would result in nothing further happening before September at the earliest. No voters seemed to also believe that AIPA/AFAP was riding in like white nights to save them from a lackluster JPC/evil management.

Speedy seems to think it will still happen that way.

You're dreaming. With all the indications of slowing economy, threat of looming recession etc etc there is just NO WAY any responsible management would dare preempt things in such a way when as it stands pilots are NOT leaving J* in significant numbers.

Joyce gave his word, (in front of many pilots) that all current J* pilots on AWAs would be offered EBA 4 if it was voted up and that no pilots would be offered AWAs/Individual contracts on better conditions in the future.

When asked if he would honor that promise in the case of a No vote he said he would, in those circumstances, do whatever he needed to do to ensure the success of J*.

This wasn't a threat he was simply answering a direct question with a direct answer.

Those pilots who voted No essentially voted against group solidarity.

So who voted No?

Wouldn't have been too many captains...they stood to gain a great deal.

Wouldn't have been too many cruise FOs...they stood to gain, % wise, the most.

So we are left with FOs who 'only' stood to gain about 9% (6+3) 18 extra days off/annum, and a maximum of 3 reserve days/mth if rostered for < 75 hours...among a whole raft of other improvements in their T&Cs...as well as having their command prospects protected to the extent that that is possible in any airline. FOs who, without exception, have been in J* less than 18 months and who likely would all have been given an opportunity to successfully complete a command course in the next 2 years..and that time frame applying to the most junior/least experienced current FO. These very same people are demanding VB equivalent T&Cs but when asked why they don't just go and apply to VB say "Well I don't want to be away from home all the time".

The No voters are all about "Me, me, I want" and yet they come to this place and claim the Yes voters, those who voted FOR solidarity, who voted to protect the command prospects of (inexperienced) FOs, who voted for Cruise FOs (SOs) to be paid the same as all FOs, are selfish wreckers:ugh:

And if they had really done the numbers they would have found they were bloody close to VB (better in places-2k for working a day off as an example) while still maintaining a better lifestyle.

They will, of course, come on here and claim the 55% for new hire 1st year FOs was a disgrace. VB do the same thing...and when you consider the average experience of new hire FOs it is probably not unreasonable given the extra training they would require to have any hope of being upgradeable within the very short time frames J* WAS talking about.

Just how stupid are these people?

[Going Boeing]

CC, I understand that JQ management initiated these negotiations 12 months before the current EBA expires. This is very unusual for QF Group management and can only be interpreted as their desire to lock in T's & C's before the pilot shortage becomes more severe. AJ might have genuinely believed that there would be no further offers but reality will force him back to the negotiating table with some additional benefits for crew. Pilots are currently in the strongest industrial position that they have ever had so it is time for every pilot to stand together and get the remuneration that they deserve.

[Pundit]

Meow Fistfokker

1. You were not one of the six who contacted me - fact

2. Your name was specifically mentioned in the AWA discussions - fact

3. XXXX progress in the training department accelerated after he joined the negotiation team - fact

4. A newsletter from the company specifically addressing the new AWA offer has not been issued - fact

5. If I begin to discuss ethics and you the tread would be closed. But perhaps that is what you and your unprincipled mates want - most likely fact

NO NAMES

Much Ado

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

How embarrassing. This thread highlights all too well for the world to see the problems faced by Jetstar pilots when it comes to dealing with the company themselves.

DM

[Conscious.pilate]

This is just a little scrap over pay ......... It is not Gallipoli or Dunkirk or Stalingrad or Guadalcanal. It is certainly not 1989.Gallipoli: 300,000 casualties
Guadalcanal: 30,000 casualties
Stalingrad: 1.5 million casualties
Dunkirk: 40,000 casualties
1989: zero casualties (except for a few bent egos and broken dreams).

So it is like 1989; just a little scrap over pay where management and union heavies try to marshal the workers for their own personal agendas.

However the difference is some people seem to be batting for the other team this time around.

[G Cantstandya]

I would'nt worry too much Pundit,

The JPA in their present form will be gone soon, after the roadshows AIPA will conduct over the next month or so we (i'm sure) will be asked to vote on a new JPA, and I can almost say for certain, that the current JPA members with other motives will be moved on.

If it is true that current JPA members have asked to sign awa's they are effectively killing off the JPA as everyone will have to do their own negiotiating.

As for you CC, you are a dreamer, last I looked the economy was booming with 9 interest rate rises in a row, and no sign of it slowing, so if we cant get a better deal now, we'll never get one!!

Also if the J* management want a divided pilot group, they are slitting their own wrists, and if guys want to go onto AWA'a and fark everyone else over I can only see it ending in pain, with cancelled flights, poor OTP and terrible moral in the company.

[Pundit]

Yes you are correct DM. But visibility it is necessary because of ourselves. Because the JPC is absolutely secretive and in bed with AJ. I put a post under another thread. Following is an extract from that post.

Airline Management has the pilot movement exactly where they want it. Divided. And the likelihood of any change to that in the short to medium term seems highly improbable.
.......

AIPA will have to be prepared to create new alliances with those they view as being less significant but caught in the same dilemma.

The challenge, in other words, involves not taking the meaning of cooperation to a higher plane, but restoring it; restoring it to the plateau where we were prior to 1981. This awesome task does not begin by examining AIPA’s own complaints about the new system, it begins by grasping what will happen to all of us if we don’t impose a united position on management.
The AFAP is a dead duck. Forget them. AIPA and the JQ pilots need to get together asap, else the "fistf*kkers" of this world ("yes Alan yes Alan") will destroy all of us

[Jabawocky]

Pundit

I do not work for Jetstar - FACT
I don't work for anybody - FACT
Probably should read and not write on this thread - FACT
You started naming names on here - FACT
I have a good idea I know who you named - Likley Fact:=

Might be wise to think about it before you post such things:=

J:ok:

[Tidbinbilla]

Let's just tread very carefully here people. No outing of PPRuNers will be tolerated.

Should this thread degenerate to personal insults it will be deleted. It's up to you'all :rolleyes::cool:

[drshmoo]

Chimbu Chuckles
Those pilots who voted No essentially voted against group solidarity.

That is one of the biggest assumptions I have ever read on these forums. THe NO voters voted for a chance to go to the bargening table again to get a better deal for the collective. Just cause this prospective EBA was to take all AWA members under the new EBA does not mean that there wont be a provision to do exactly the same in the next prospective EBA.

QF group enjoy knowing there costs bases and therefor as Jetstar grows it is imperitive when forecasting costs to have a fixed cost base not a variety of ever changing individual agreements.

These very same people are demanding VB equivalent T&Cs but when asked why they don't just go and apply to VB say "Well I don't want to be away from home all the time".

Why not demand VB terms and conditions? Its a EBA bargining period, so this is the time you try and get what you as a GROUP think your worth.

When they are voting democatically under the EBA protocols why are they then selfish?

JETSTAR boyz n girls stay united - get what you deserve

[Chimbu chuckles]

GC yes the economy has been and is currently booming..as I posted in another thread I think there is a better than even chance it won't be in 12 months time and if that is the case an opportunity will have been missed.

I think it is quite possibly true that the company initiated negotiations 12 mths ago because of pilot shortage worries...Not an unreasonable action on their part. In the last 12 mths though things have become clearer and it is clear to me, at least, that the company does not need to rush back to the table given current realities and future probabilities.

The current reality is virtually no one is leaving J* (I can think of 2-one was a mate who didn't like the AN check and fail mentality) and they have plenty of applications...I know a handful of very experienced applicants and a mate at Pac Blue says he is one of 20 just from there. I have chatted via skype to an airbus experienced pilot in South Africa who is just busting to get his acceptance email. Highly experienced A320 captains in Asia are ringing up their old AN mates in J* and asking for jobs.

I think you're all worth more...but the reality is I think EBA 4 was as good as you were going to get.

Maybe I am wrong...I actually hope so...but given what I know is going on in the background I don't think so.

Good luck all of you....I will not contribute on this topic again.

[Pundit]

Jabawocky, I am closer to this than you. In fact I voted YES

I should not have named an individual and for that I apologise to you all.

The JPC was voted in to represent us. I believe in democracy. If the JPC is incapable of re-negotiating the deal, don't put up the white flag and run for a self serving AWA, step aside and let a more professional group take on the task of representing all the pilots.

[Jabawocky]

Pundit.....I have no doubt you are close to this.

Apology accepted.:ok: Just wanted to make clear I have no axe to grind but was not happy to see slanderous statements and names all in one sentence.

You just never know who is looking......and believe me, as i have come to find out, some here know a lot more than we do or think they do......:\

J:ok:

[CabAltHi]

What was the point of having an EBA vote in the first place??
The deal I thought was adequate in some areas but needed some changes to get through and the other 56% of Jetstar pilots thought the same. It is the first time that we have voted an EBA down. I was stunned to learn that 75 of my colleagues have already expressed an interest in going onto an AWA on the conditions that were voted down!. It seems if there is 100, the company will do it and why wouldn't they. Some of these people were most likely the same individuals who expressed outrage when AJ announced he would place all new hires on AWA's last year. Short memories for some.
The majority voted against, why not wait, let the dust settle and see if the company comes back to the table?? Isn't that how enterprise Bargaining is supposed to play out?! For methodical, systematic and calculating individuals there has been some real snap decisions.

So what if the company doesn't come back for months! If they had not of opened negotiation earlier this thread would not even exist. Our EBA didn't expire to September. Yep there would be more AWA's, (This seems to be the reason why negotiation was commenced earlier in the first place, though there was never any mention in the document about getting everyone back to the EBA), and the EBA would of been negotiated in the usual way.
Instead those who were dissatisfied with the result have now set a precedent which will mean any chance of us becoming a strong unified group disappear.

Once again it shows that we as pilots really are clueless and selfish when it comes to putting ourselves in a position of bargaining power. The management team who may have been disappointed with the voting must now be laughing their tits off. :ugh::ugh:

[LetsGoRated]

Why not demand VB terms and conditions? Its a EBA bargining period, so this is the time you try and get what you as a GROUP think your worth.


What was on offer, was far in excess of VB terms and "conditions"!! Did you read the same document??? Fools!! :ugh:

[RFN]

Spent your bonus prematurely, have we...:=

[Rostov]

That is untrue 'lets go rated'. The deal on the table was marginally under VB pay IF we did the overtime and IF the KPI and Bonus scheme % was pleasent. To suggest otherwise is false.

[UNOME]

And people left Dragon, Cathay, EK, even Tiger to be indulge in this ....fight!!! :sad: :zzz:

[Sue Ridgepipe]

And people left Dragon, Cathay, EK, even Tiger to be indulge in this ....fight!!!

Yeah, sad isn't it? These guys are carrying on worse than a bunch of school kids fighting in the playground.

I was a bit disappointed last year when I got knocked back after an interview with JQ, but I now realise what a huge favour they did for me.

[Boofy181]

It would be intertesting to see what the vote would have been if the 50 or so pilots on AWA's were employed under the EBA. Something for AJ to mull over.:hmm:

PS. Just to confirm, AJ never said he would offer anyone on an AWA the chance to be covered under the EBA, in fact he was very non-commital when questioned about it.

[pondoklabu]

Hello all, very interesting post, but could someone explain to me why management would except these so called yes votes going to their own AWA.
I ask this because if you are on your own AWA you cant vote in the next upcoming EBA so instead of 54% voting no if the same guys voted no again (say if they were being shafted by the greedy minority) then the next no vote would be somewhere in the 90% region.
If protected industrial action would then take place, it really doesn’t matter if its 54% of the work force or 90%, the results as long as legal will be the same. Of coarse 90% of the work force doing the same thing is always better but unfortunately we seem to live in a working environment designed to reward the greedy and manipulative amongst us more than the logical and moral.
As a side note I don’t believe any AWA's will be offered it opens Pandora’s box of the unknown in many ways but that wont stop some managers help drive derision by implying they will be offered if a token number do come forward.

[mppgf]

Yeah, sad isn't it? These guys are carrying on worse than a bunch of school kids fighting in the playground.

Like you Sue, most of the carrying on about this subject is being done by people who don't actually work for jetstar.:confused:

[red or white]

can you read this eba anywhere on the net? I do not work for JQ.

[toolish]

Petriboy, no you can't read it anywhere because it was voted down by the majority but maybe one of those with high moral values and integrity that have approached the company to accept an AWA on those conditions against the wishes of the group as a whole may wish to post their contract here. SHAMEFUL:mad: I am now truly disappointed I work for a company that employs these types.:{

One Qantas group, highly unlikely if Jetstar pilots as a group can't stick together:ugh:

[TurbTool]

I am now truly disappointed I work for a company that employs these types.

Maybe you could leave thereby ending your disappointment and convincing Jetstar management that there is a pilot shortage.

[Pollution IV]

I don't quite understand the sense of desperation displayed by those pilots who are willing to accept the current J* management offer, given the excellent bargaining position in which the pilot group currently finds itself.

Don't be fooled by the claims that J* has plenty of qualified pilots knocking their doors down to get a job. I know of numerous experienced Capts who have recently rejected DEC job offers at J* simply due the fact the pay & conds are so sub-standard. This is a clear indication to J* management that what they offer is below market rate and that they must significantly improve things. Furthermore, the interview amounted to little more than a hard sell of how wonderful J* is and future opportunities offered etc. They are desperate for suitably qualified pilots or else why would they behave in such an ingratiating manner to prospective employees?

Those J* pilots rushing to sign an AWA would be well advised to review recent interviews and statements by Dep PM Julia Gillard and wait for the announcement to parliament on Wed 13Feb08 regarding future workplace arrangements. As of Mid yr at the latest...'The transitional workplace arrangements bill will ban new Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs) and replace the Howard government's fairness test with a "no disadvantage" test.' It seems the intent is of course to abolish the Workchoices bill and thus AWAs for those earning <$100K. Though not all J* pilots would fall under this ruling, any workplace where >50% of employees wish to have collective bargaining representation must be allowed to do so. Existing AWAs will be honoured, which means some employees will be stuck on an AWA until 2013! Do you honestly believe Management would offer you a long term deal as a favour, simply cos they're good guys? Things to consider:

1. Pay & Conds. Do you really believe there will be minimal wage rises over the next 4 or so yrs? Aus is steadily aligning itself more closely with the booming Asia region which looks to be largely resilient to any US downturn. Expat pilots are becoming a prized commodity up here, which in turn puts pressure on the Aus airlines. With rising cost of living and interest rates, will you continue to be happy stuck with your meagre % wage rise and couple of extra days off as currently offered? Will you be pleased to see all your EBA co-workers steadily receive significantly better conditions than you on your contracted AWA? Do you really think your benevolent management will allow you to dissolve your AWA and jump onto a better EBA deal? I doubt you'll be able to have your cake and eat it too.

2. Promotions/Career. Those F/Os who think they will somehow guarantee themselves a better deal or min time to command by appeasing the will of management and accepting lesser conditions, should consider why they are still offering DEC and now recruiting foreign nationals under special employment visas. Appeasing management does nothing to better your life in the med to long term, it just allows breathing rm for them to institute these other mercenary tactics, which will only delay your Captaincy and frustrate your life as an F/O. Surprisingly, job security seemed to be touted as a reason for voting 'yes'. If worse does come to worst, who do you think management will be more easily able to retrench - isolated individuals coming out of an AWA, or those protected by a solid union representation under an EBA?

Stick together, provide a unified front to management and force them to treat you as professionals. This is the only way you can realistically defend your jobs in the face of rapacious, divide and conquer management tactics. It's time to see the big picture. Pilots scrambling for individual gain will only lead to disappointment for everyone in the end.

[flyingins]

The MAJORITY of Jetstar pilots are disgusted by the selfish actions of the MINORITY who have chosen to seek short-term financial gain at the expense of long-term solidarity.

There is now an unprecedented level of interest among the rank-and-file in affiliating with an appropriate industrial body, be it AIPA, AFAP or, preferably, both working together.

Good will come of this unfortunate situation and perhaps it has taken such a blatant example of the self-serving idiocy of some to spur the silent remainder into action.

[CarpetMuncher]

Does anyone have a copy of, or know where I can get a copy of the current J* AWA?

Cheers.

[swab]

The Jetstar AWA, as I understand it is a direct reflection of the current EBA.
As to why have an AWA the same as an EBA.....with no collective bargaining power, "divided we fall"!

[strobe12]

Rumour i heard was that the offer was 17%, but i some how find that a bit hard to believe.Talking to a mate who flies for Bristow Helicopters, said that they are asking for a 30% yes thats right THREE ZERO increase. Pilots leaving, oil industry booming, lots of flying, so why not. Said that IA not far off as well.Rekon it wouold be to many days if they did walk b4 they company came to the table.Dont falter on this one J* girls/boys

[dirty deeds]

Those pilots who voted No essentially voted against group solidarity.

WHAT THA!!!!!

I don't know what the new EBA entails, but I do know one thing!

Pilots are not very bright, they are actually quite stupid, they can fly planes, but that is about it. They always screw each other and always will. I have learnt to accept this and realise that about only a small few actually see the bigger picture and the rest still act like green aero club pudknockers!

This EBA will get up, no problems, just keep on fighting with each other, stay divided, act like aero club pudknockers, smile and wave at each other then throw the daggers like a bunch of frat girls, and enjoy your quick command or Visa entry into Aus and enjoy your Denpasar return.

Just history repeating itself......again and again!!!!!

TRAGIC I SAY, but then again what would I know, I am just another TRAGIC PILOT.

[jakethemuss]

The "person of interest" (it is in the public record) continues to attempt to condone his actions in rallying the troops to sign an AWA. Do not be distracted by such bad breeding.:rolleyes:

[Going Boeing]

Why is the "person of interest" rallying the troops to sign an AWA. He doesn't need anyone else to sign an AWA. It appears that by getting others to follow him, he is trying to organise a collective agreement. If he was just a little bit smarter then he would realise that is what the majority of his peers want - only on better conditions than the current offer. It sounds like he is industrially naive. :ugh: