Advice Required

[aScottishBloke]

Sorry for the long winded post, I'll split it.

I'm looking for assistance on what do with my scenario detailed below. This account is 100% accurate and I'd appreciate if responses would bear this in mind.

I was a member of a party of 10 football supporters returning from a recent European match. The booking comprised of 1 group of 5, with the remainder having made individual bookings. All 10 passengers boarded successfully, although there was a minor incident at the final departure gate.

I was aware of a disturbance involving another group of 4 female passengers. This involved one of them, quite clearly in an anxious state, loudly proclaiming to the staff that she refused to travel with a group of drunken Scottish football fans. She was refused permission to travel. The remainder of her group proceeded towards the aircraft. Our group then proceeded towards boarding. I was the last group member to hand over my pass. The woman was still demanding to board, initially stating we were all drunk before changing her position to a fear of flying. The ground staff politely confirmed that our group has passed 3 checks prior to final boarding and the only person deemed to be unfit to fly was the aggrieved woman. An appeal to the captain of the flight had been made and ground staffs were awaiting a response on the decision of non boarding. After a period of 10 mins or so this passenger was granted permission to fly and joined the aircraft.

Our group was scattered in the final 5/6 rows at the rear of the aircraft. We assumed take off was imminent. Several of our group were then warned that we had placed a female passenger's safety at risk and that we should mind our language. The passenger who complained was the same passenger who had initially been denied boarding.

After a short while, we were then informed that we were being denied permission to fly and being ejected from the flight. No unruly or disrespectful behaviour came from our group, nor had there been any further 'warnings' from the cabin crew. They said the captain’s decision was final. We were escorted off the aircraft by the local police, who in turn photocopied our passports before returning them.

We all had to make our own way home, due to lack of available flights that evening, all had to remain overnight. 5 Made it to Liverpool, 3 to Newcastle, approx 14 hours later and 2 (including myself to Glasgow, some 34 hours later). Not much good when your vehicle is in Manchester.

I returned to the airport the following day, considerably upset at the incident, but wishing to ascertain the full facts (from the airlines perspective) prior to raising a formal complaint

I managed to speak to the ground staff member who had initially refused the female passenger permission to fly. She could not believe that we were ejected on the grounds of being drunk and that she had would be filing a report on the incident as far as she saw it. (Of course this may have been her training, listening to concerns and defusing any possible situation.

The only definite flight out was operated by our original carriers, however in order to fly we would have to purchase additional tickets, hugely inflated price and sign a disclaimer. She could not have been more sympathetic of our plight and managed to obtain 2 seats with another operator on the basis of a no show.

For additional background info, five of the group were not drinking, either being the minibus driver or having to drive when we reached our home destination. The remainder had drunk very little, and I can confirm that there was no excessive drinking whatsoever.

Now my predicament is where to go next, the airline are refusing to reconsider. I do truly think that they have made an honest mistake, based on limited information, prior to departure time. I understand and agree safety is paramount, but airlines should also operate in a fair manner. I'm glad all other passengers on the flight were not unduly delayed, but surely the airline has a responsibility to all passengers.

This was in my view, a discriminatory and negligent action carried out by the airline, choosing to eject us because of their subjective assumption, grouping us all as guilty.

I'd be grateful for advice that anyone could offer, perhaps similar scenarios where an airline was held accountable for its actions taken in a similar scenario to mine.

I'm happy to offer more information should anyone require.

[A2QFI]

Consult a solicitor and split the cost between those affected by this high-handed action by the airline.

[aScottishBloke]

Thanks for the response. I've already written to the airline asking them to remedy the situation, however they dismissed it as being within their rights, quoting articles and schedules that I'd quoted as fully adhereing to.

Perhaps each booking (6) should serve a small claims cases in Scotland ?

[G-ZUZZ]

In what way were you discriminatd against?

[Bealzebub]

If you feel you have a contractual dispute with the carrier, then as has been suggested, and as you probably already know, take the matter to court. There the matter can be dealt with not on the basis of what is fair, but on the basis of what is law.

The problem with putting forward your case here on a professional pilots website (passenger forum) is that any "advice" is going to be a mix of opinion (some good, some bad), anecdote, and information that is unlikely to resolve the situation for you. You state that :This account is 100% accurate and I'd appreciate if responses would bear this in mind.

That may be so, but only from your point of view. Even in court it is unlikely that yours will be the only submission.

From the point of view of one airline captain and speaking generally, I can tell you that we carry tens of thousands of passengers every year and percentage wise there are very few that give rise to any difficulty. Sometimes for various reasons including similar situations to the one you describe, it does happen that we are asked to decide on a passengers suitability for carriage. When that happens it is usually a very short time before the flight is scheduled to depart. It is at a time when we are busy attending to other pre-flight requirements. It is not a time when we are best disposed to leaving the aircraft to have to make a quick assessment or adjudication in such matters.

In the United Kingdom, the Air Navigation Order, gives us statutory authority to remove any individual or group of individuals that we decide could be a threat to the safety or regularity of the flight for various reasons. In order to assist us in the proper exercise of that authority we rely on cabin crew and various ground personnel to notify us of their concerns or pass on information that may be relevant. Our decision is final (albeit the decision may never be made because it has been taken prior to boarding).

In addition there is a contractual position between the airline and the passenger. This is contained within the General conditions of carriage and any specific conditions that may be attached. These will usually be contained within the box you tick, that is required as part of the purchase conditions. As such you have contractually agreed to be carried subject to these conditions. The wording in the relevant part of the contract, will require the purchaser to acknowledge that the behaviour of the the passenger or any member of their group must in the opinion of the aircraft commander or other staff, be acceptable. That acceptance would include such matters as : drunkenness; loud or disruptive behaviour; obscene or profane language. However there are many situations that may also give rise to sufficient concern that the removal of an individual or group of individual passengers is desirable. In this matter the Captains decision is final in all cases.

I would point out that on any given flight, everybody involved is trying to ensure that the aircraft is dispatched in a safe and timely manner. In other words we just want everybody on board, sat in the right seats, briefed properly and off we go. These days everyone involved in the task is expected to look for behaviour that in some way is out of the normal. Obviously there are groups of travellers that do draw attention, and sometimes in the case of stag/hen parties, football supporters etc. These groups do intentionally seek to draw attention. Of course that doesn't imply that their behaviour is automatically unacceptable and usually it is fine. However my point is that it is often being watched. In such groups poor behaviour ( or a minor incident ?) that occurs with one of the group, might well cause the entire group to be offloaded. Sometimes it is simply too difficult, or time will not allow such distinction or discrimination to be made. That is unfortunate, but is contractually covered within the booking terms, and certainly within the statutory authority of the commander.

Despite this, if you are properly advised that you have a case for breach of contract, then you should seek redress through the proper channels.

[aScottishBloke]

Bealzebub,

Thank you for giving such a comprehensive reply. My aim was to seek information on the role of the captain and the procedures that should be followed. You have certainly provided that.

I'm aware that only my side of the story has been presented, and should I challenge at court then there will be another viewpoint to consider.

I appreciate the powers a captain may have at his disposal giving the right to dispose of passengers who may pose a threat to the flight. Had the captain consulted with ground staff he would then have been aware that the passenger making the complaint was the same person whom final departure had refused boarding. This I feel was completely overlooked, perhaps there were other pressures to consider, such as routine procedures that have to be followed prior to take off. I believe that rather than spend time dealing with this issue, the easier option was to eject football supporters so that the flight could carry on towards the destination at the scheduled time. Ground staff, with whom I spoke to the following day, confirmed the events and behaviour of the complaining passenger and agreed that they would be making a formal report of the incident.

Regarding the General conditions of carriage, the agreement to travel should be binding on both sides. I fully signed up to this at point of booking and as such, unless I breach those terms, which I fully complied with, then it is the airline that has broken the contract.

I fully agree safety is paramount, respecting the captains authority in all matters. With this position of authority comes responsibility, and this is where I feel let down. By not taking all accounts into consideration, for whatever reason, I believe the captain has been negligent when disposing such authority.

Regards

Billy

[Bealzebub]

Billy,

I do not wish to disilluision you, but I gave you a general view of what often happens in such situations rather than the procedures that should be followed. The Captain is under no obligation to seek any further information from anybody, nor is he/she required to witness or observe the passenger or group. The captain simply has to be of the opinion that the passenger/s are unsuitable for carriage for whatever reason, in order to offload them or refuse carriage. I am afraid that, rather like a pub landlord, the captain can refuse carriage to anybody for whatever reason unless that reason is in itself unlawful. I think your suggestion of negligence is something of a non-starter, since it is not negligent to exclude a passenger. I have done it many times in the last 25 years, and have never heard of a claim based on the commanders negligence resulting from any such action on the part of any aircraft commander ?

Breach of contract between you and the airline, would very much depend on what the contract states. Despite what you would hope, contracts are normally written by the seller to protect the sellers interests.The contract is indeed binding on both sides, however only insomuch as what it actually states, not what you wished it should state.

From what you have said ( and I am still curious about this minor incident at the departure gate ?) I cannot see how the captain has been negligent as you have provided no information in support of such a contention. There doesn't appear to be a tort , only a theoretical claim for damages from a breach of contract, if indeed there actually was one that adversely impacted you.

As I said in the previous reply you should seek proper legal advice.

[TightSlot]

although there was a minor incident at the final departure gate

aScottishBloke - can you help us with what this was...?

[Saintsman]

You could always try the race angle. You were offloaded because you were Scottish.....

[10secondsurvey]

Saintsman,

You know, you could be right (though I guess you were just being racist!). It really does happen.

Often, people from other countries or cultures can indeed mistake a strong Scottish accent and dialect as drunkenness.

[10secondsurvey]

a scottish bloke,

Sounds like you had a raw deal. In reality, the rules and laws in aviation are heavily weighted against the pax, and as has been pointed out, the courts uphold what is legal, and not what is fair.

Sounds like you were pretty badly discriminated against, and really airline crew should take a bit more care about such things. There may be laws allowing the offload of pax, but airlines need to give it some thought when they do it, instead of making unjustified and unqualified assumptions.

If you can afford it, get a good lawyer, and sue them for anything and everything.

Sadly some airlines don't give a s**t about thier paying customers. If you cannot seek redress through legal channels, just make a point of letting everyone in the football club know the crass way this airline behaves, and maybe some will choose a different airline next time.

[aScottishBloke]

The minor incident I refer to was on passing through final departure gate.

We were aware of a scene, involving a group of girls at the desk. It appeared they were arguing amonst themselves. As we approached, the girls split up, leaving one behind. She started shouting on about not flying with drunken scottish football fans, the girls shouted back at her to get a grip.

She was then informed that she would not be flying due to her state. She argued she wasn't drunk, it's them (us). The ground staff quoted they are fine, it's you that's deemed unfit. She then said she's only anxious due to her fear of flying. We all passed through whilst she had to wait upon an appeal to the captain for clearance to fly.

10 minutes later she joined the aircraft and then immediately complained to cabin crew/captain regarding her concern/fear.

Next thing we know is the request to leave, no appeal, just get off and find your own way home.

It was all so surreal, so I do forgive anyone who thinks this is too true to believe and that there must be some blame attributable to our group.

I've never experienced this beheaviour before. Shocked and stunned to say the least. I'm very anxious re flying but had taken the last of my prescribed medicines (diazepam and beta blockers) just prior to boarding, only to be ejected.

Felt sorry for the bloke whom I sat next to on a standby flight the following night. I sat in the crash position for 3 hrs bricking it. Just wish i'd been on the ball to complain to the captain that everyone was making me scared and feeling unsafe. Perhaps I would have been the only passenger left if the captain demonstrated the same attributes as the one the previous day.

[Sobelena]

From what I've read so far it would appear that you have been a lot kinder to the airline (than they were to you) by not naming them! If you intend to take legal action then don't name them. However, if you're not going to go down the legal route NAME and SHAME. Mind you, most of us have already figured out which one it was. :E

[aScottishBloke]

I held back the name of the airline and team that we support so as not to influence any comments.

Don't know what the obvious airlines would be, but in our case it was not ryanair or easyjet.

I/we do intend to go down the legal route, I'll fire one final letter to the airline confirming our intention to go to court. I wanted to know if there were any precedents to call upon.

Cheers

[Bealzebub]

I don't mean to pry, and nor do I mean to appear rude, but I have read this thread again from the start. In the first post you stated that : This account is 100% accurate and I'd appreciate if responses would bear this in mind.

In your 4th post you added the additional information that : I've never experienced this beheaviour before. Shocked and stunned to say the least. I'm very anxious re flying but had taken the last of my prescribed medicines (diazepam and beta blockers) just prior to boarding, only to be ejected.

It is not entirely clear from your postings as to whether you were drinking any alcohol at all. You stated that :For additional background info, five of the group were not drinking, either being the minibus driver or having to drive when we reached our home destination. The remainder had drunk very little, and I can confirm that there was no excessive drinking whatsoever. Presumably "we" would infer you were in the first group that were not drinking, however I ask because it seems that one of the stipulations regarding the use of your medication is that : Avoid alcohol while taking diazepam. Alcohol may increase drowsiness and dizziness caused by diazepam. Alcohol may also increase the risk of having a seizure if diazepam is being taken for a seizure condition.

As I understand what you have subsequently added you :Felt sorry for the bloke whom I sat next to on a standby flight the following night. I sat in the crash position for 3 hrs bricking it. Just wish i'd been on the ball to complain to the captain that everyone was making me scared and feeling unsafe.

I feel there is more to this story despite what you say. However if what you say is accurate then you really should stop looking for advice on this website and consult a solicitor for proper, considered and balanced advice. Once you have this (and it shouldn't cost a lot) then decide on what action you want to take. All this name & shame nonsense will achieve nothing for you, unless you simply want to sound off here and put the matter behind you.

[iggie]

aScottishBloke

You have said that when the girl in question boarded the aircraft she immediately complained to the cabin crew and the captain. May I ask you to tell us how she managed to complain to the captain? Was he out of his cockpit?

And does a Scot normally refer to himself as a bloke? To me that's that's how an Englishman refers to himself.

[Sobelena]

Don't know what the obvious airlines would be, but in our case it was not ryanair or easyjet.

That's narrowed it down to one :suspect: then :}

I'll keep it to myself ;)

[aScottishBloke]

The compaint was made to the captain via a member of the cabin crew who in turn relayed his instruction back that we were offski, end of story, out....

I'll refrain from rambling any further and simply ask if there are any precedents that I may call upon with regards to seeking redress.

Thanks again all, i've really appreciated the responses.

[gillemor]

Have you read today's newspaper stories about the so-called "steel band terrorists"?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3315495.ece

Strictly speaking it's not a legally binding precedent as it's only a County Court decision, but still could be useful for your complaint to the airline.

[Contacttower]

aScottishBloke, this article in The Times today may be of relevance to you. It would appear in some cases at least one can be compensated for being thrown off a flight.

It involves a group ordered off, having not done anything wrong, apparently on the basis of one passenger's complaints to the crew.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3315495.ece

[aScottishBloke]

Thank you both for the link to the times article, very interesting indeed.

It gives me a little hope that a wrong can be corrected, hopefully a group of celtic supporters, all sitting apart can be considered as sypmathetically as the Steel Band were, although I have a doubt.

I believe the airline, in my case, are not telling the truth. They based their reason on our group as being 'drunk' for being spotted in a drinking area inside the terminal (fast food area, serving alcohol). Funnily enough that was the complaint made by the female passenger at the final check in desk.

They seem to have based their argument on this passengers viewpoint, grossly unfair imho.

Thanks again, very interesting.

[aScottishBloke]

I'm content that if a decision is made not to carry a passenger, then i'll accept it.

What is not acceptable to me, is that I fully adhered to the terms and conditions of carriage as per the booking reference and as such the contract with me has been broken by the airline.

Topslide6, your solution did not work in my case, nor would it have prevented the situation from arising. A girl did not want to travel on the same flight as myself, instead of waiting on another flight, she simply came up with a performance to get rid of us all.

My solution is simply never to fly with that airline again. I've never experienced anything like that in all my years of flying.

[bealine]

It seem to me as though the person you need here is "Flying Lawyer"

Do a search for his/her user name here on Pprune and refer him/her to this thread by either private message or email.

You may be asked more questions, but this is one person who really knows aviation law and procedures.

I wouldn't begin to offer advice as I wasn't at the scene. However, it is normal with the airline I work for that all the members of the group travelling together on one booking where some are being unruly would be offloaded. In addition to the fact that you are all considered accountable, there is the major inconvenience of having to offload some bags from the group, identify the ones of the people who are travelling and re-load them, causing a massive delay and inconveniencing everyone on board. Far easier just to offload the group and its baggage! Naturally, the airline would probably present this logical argument to the court as well.

Contact Flying Lawyer and see how the land lies! :ok:

[PyroTek]

isn't it usually in a Terms of Service of the airline where they 'may eject anyone from a flight, at their discretion, with no reason required' or something similar...?

[PAXboy]

Topslide6The easy solution, of course, is simply not to drink at all prior to travelling on an aircraft, then this situation would not arise.
From his first account, aScottishBloke states that some of the party were not drinking anyway.

What follows is pure speculation with no more information than is in this thread and 51 years on this planet.

It appears that a woman - for reasons unknown - identified a group of passengers as being unacceptable to her. It appears that her own fear of flying compelled her to find something wrong with something or someone. She appears to have picked on a social stereotype. Her first attempt back-fired and she herself was deemed as unsuitable for travel. So she redoubled her efforts and then succeeded. She might then have thought that, having removed the 'threat' her flight would proceed smoothly. Which it did! So she knows that her plan works. I suspect that this is all entirely sub-concious for her and that, when challenged, is unaware of the scale of her phobia and it's impact on others.
[end of speculation]

Therefore, locating that woman is important. Not least as she may have a history of pulling this trick. Understandably, the airline will not tell you and there is no means of tracking her down. On some routes, she may be well known! It was probably one of those times that someone needed to use a camera to record what happened but I can understand that you were all gob-smacked at what was happening.

I agree that trying to challenge the Captain's decision is pointless. It is a matter of high principle for all concerned and, I think it needs to be so. Depending upon the advice you get (and I agree with bealine that finding Flying Lawyer for even a brief read through of this thread would be helpful) then asking the carrier to review how the ground crew handled the problem - may result in some compensation and lessons learnt.

Perhaps the angle is one of polite inquiry to the carrier as to how this happened. Why the decision was made to recommend to the Captain that one pax who was complaining at loud volume should be favoured against a group that was minding it's own business ..???

Sure as eggs, they will never tell you but if you can introduce doubt into their minds, plus the clear intention to go to court (no threats - INTENT) and the attendant publicity, then you will <probably> catch their attention.

[groundhand]

I recall many years ago, probably around 1987/88 when a Captain of a UK IT operator tried to offload a group of young girls (18-21ish) as he deemed them to be inappropriatley dressed - they were wearing shorts, teeshirts (by todays standards positively 'covered'). As the Dispatcher of the flight I challenged this decision as there was no justifiable reason (his comments that they were sluts; almost naked; not properly dressed to fly on 'his' aircraft etc.) and referred the matter back to his HO Operations. They over-ruled him and the girls travelled.

I was reprimanded by my employer, demoted and taken off Dispatch duties. The Captain paid no price, he carried on as normal but made my life difficult until he swanned off into retirement.

Flight Deck have huge responsibilities but not all exercise then responsibly.

[bealine]

Yes, PyroTek, there is usually a "catch all" clause - similar to "Section 69 of the Army Act".

That having been said, in British Law you can argue against "Unfair Terms and Conditions" which can be viewed very seriously by the courts!

[dollydaydream]

Apologies if it has already been mentioned but did 'ascottishbloke' know the woman in question.?
I don't really know of any crew I work with who would go to the captain with the purpose of getting a group of passengers offloaded on another passengers say so.
Personally, considering you are all home safe and sound and it would appear you are not going to get satisfactory redress to your complaint, I would just forget it and take care who you travel with next time

[aScottishBloke]

Thanks for the comments so far, I agree with the earlier comment that the action by the female passenger may not have intended to be the malicious sort. However the end result was 10 persons ejected from the flight.

She was denied boarding by ground staff, only an appeal to the captain for clearance enabled her to join the flight. How I wish he had put 2 + 2 together when the complaint was repeated to cabin staff. I would dread the thought that he had already made judgment prior to boarding that we were to be ejected.

I'm aware of the supreme rights of the captain, but with authority comes responsibility, and I believe he erred when discharging this duty.

A contract which is very biased in favour of one side, and with no right of appeal to the other, would hopefully be declared as unfair.

I have tried to get in touch with Flying Lawyer for any thoughts that he/she can provide, so I'll refrain from taking further action until I hear otherwise.

To Toplslide6, I can offer no reason why the Captain carried out his actions, but I do intend to get to the bottom of this. Some had a drink, but this is not a forbidden act. No criminal offence had taken place, nor based on past experiences would one have been committed, nor was a threat to carry out such actions. It was all too heavy handed I'm afraid. I'm happy to answer to anything, however all I can do is repeat my statement of events. There would be no point in me making this complaint if we even contributed a minor action towards justifcation.

I am not here to name and shame the airline, merely seeking advice. I'm not going to waste my time by taking on worthless causes, especially if I thought I was a contributory factor, however I do feel an injustice was served.

We have already booked up for the next round in approx 4 weeks, having already chosen another airline with a higher fare than the previous company. A small loss to the airline, but a principle has to be applied.

[aScottishBloke]

No, we had never met this women before, only becoming aware of her as we proceeded through final departure gate.

Their was nothing snobby about this female, just really agitated and having a loud argument with her 3 female friends who gave up on her and boarded the aircraft leaving her behind.

[PAXboy]

Topslide6There is a hell of a lot of conjecture in what you've said, although you did say as much. The thought that this women was some sort of snob with an axe to grind seems a bit far fetched personally.Indeed, it would be - if I had said that but I did not. I said something else entirely.

Sorry but I find it very hard to believe that a crew, and ultimately a Captain, would offload a group of passengers on the say so of another for no good reason. In fact, I find the whole idea ludicrous.Often in my life, work and social, I have seen a simple act miscontrued. The next person takes it up as given and you have Chinese Whispers. Bear in mind that crew (of all categories) are under great pressure to get the flight away on time. If they are presented with a single female that is (apparently) behaving strangely and ten Scottish men (apparently) behaving strangely - which is going to be presumed the guilty party?

When similar sorts of problems have been discussed in here before, we have heard that cabin crew will often take the problem to the Captain for resolution but the Captain must rely upon their representation of the problem. If the CC - for what ever reason - have misunderstood the situation, the Captain will start off with the wrong information.

Further, if the Captain is too busy to come out and get embroiled in a boarding dispute and decides to accept the advice of the senior CC and instruct them to do as they think best but, crucially, now with his authority ...?? This kind of misunderstanding by people under pressure can happen so easily and must happen every day.

Therefore, if the client considers themselves to be the injured party, then they must go to court. As I say, not just threaten. The airline will only respond when hard money and it's public reputation is at risk. Perhaps, not even then.

[Contacttower]

Sorry gillemor, it would appear you beat me too it with the article...although I don't know how I missed it. :ugh:

Do tell us aScottishBloke how you get on with any legal action you may wish to take...we would be interested to know.

[Sensible]

The airline didn't make the decision, the Captain did
Topslide, the captain IS the airline representative! decisions made by him are the decisions of the airline!

Apart from that, I would try a claim by one of the party in the small claims court to 'test the water'. If the airline buckles and pays up because either they can't be bothered to defend the action or because they don't want the adverse publicity then the gate is open for the others to make similar claims.

Quite frankly, I think you are on thin ice, neither I or I'm sure the Judge would be easily willing to accept that a captain would eject passengers for no good reason!

[jammydonut]

Hasn't the Flying Lawyer been promoted to more important things ?

[SpamFritters]

Any a simple input from me..
That I find it extremely hard to believe that a lady just took dislike to you.. if you had done NOTHING. It sounds rediculous and I am sure your holding something back.
People don't just take dislike and risk themselves being offloaded for no reason! Maybe you didn't do anything.. but |I think it is highly likely one of the companions you were travelling with did.

And yeh.. wouldn't have though a CC would go the captain on a PAX say so WITHOUT them seeing that you were unruly.. They normally go asnd check out the PAX being companied about and then go to the captain, don't they?

So yeh.. If your not being.. please be honest about ALL the cirumstances.. otherwise you will just look like a fool in court.

If you really are being truthful then that sucks.. :rolleyes::ugh:

[hellsbrink]

SpamFritters, it does happen. I had the same in various parts of London, especially if alcohol/narcotics/drugs of any kind or even just stress can do. Both male and female, don't matter what their "ethnic origin" is. It was just bad luck that ascottishguy and his group appeared then, and it would be nice to know if any of the ground staff passed on any of the "conversation" before they showed up.

[aScottishBloke]

Topslide,

I'll repeat for the last time, neither I or my group did anything wrong to eject us from the flight, neither did we do anything to alarm this woman. Perhaps she had had a bad experience previously, however I would have expected the captain/cabin crew to investigate further, taking account of ground crew staff observations. Had this been carried out, then I'm confident we would have remained seated, with only the female passenger ejected.

Ironically, took less than a couple of minutes for us to be ejected, with only hand luggage, all walked off peacefully, albeit shocked and stunned. No one fancied a night or more spent in a foreign cell.

Is anyone familiar with reporting of incidents by ground staff regarding denial of boarding. Are observations recorded ? The reason I ask, is that on the following day ground staff mentioned that they had still to file a report on this matter and would be supporting my iew (of course they can only relate to the ground incident). Is there a right of access to this data ?

Co-incidentally, the captain may have just demonstrated the same ignorant characteristics that the chief executive of the airline has shown in the past.

[perkin]

I don't know which airline you flew with, but I've just scanned through Ryanairs Conditions of Carriage and, quite frankly, I don't think you have a leg to stand on. The conditions of carriage are worded very much in favour of the airline, so you're probably best just to forget about it this time and move on. Complain to the airline and dont spend your money with them in future is what I'd suggest.

[dollydaydream]

To satisfy my curiosity I would like to know which airline it was - you are now talking about the chief exec as though you have had previous dealings.....????

In all honesty though - just move on:ugh:

[aScottishBloke]

Already decided not to use the airline again.

The chief exec remarks are a reflection on a public outburst by the man, discriminating against a whole nation.

[Bealzebub]

The problem ASB is in your expectation.

The Captain doesn't have to investigate further, or indeed investigate at all. He/she has the right to refuse carriage as they see fit. They cannot be compelled to carry anybody or anything that they are unhappy with. Certainly the carrier can replace the commander if they wish, but that would be highly unusual and certainly impractical. The captain as well as their statutory powers, are also representatives of the company. Away from base, they are often the senior representative of their company. If you believe their action has been detrimental to you, then you might have a case for breach of contract against the company concerned.

I understand your annoyance, and your distress. However having tried to explain what happens generally in these type of circumstances, you seem to be going round in circles. From what you have said, the captain made a decision to exclude you based on the information provided to him. Clearly that decision affected you adversely. The action he took was nevertheless lawful for the reasons already given. You claim that the captains decision meant that the airline with whom you had a contract, failed in its fulfillment of that contract.

You need to speak to a solicitor for advice on how to proceed.

Co-incidentally, the captain may have just demonstrated the same ignorant characteristics that the chief executive of the airline has shown in the past.

Maybe, but provided he has acted within the legal framework of his authority and has safely operated the aircraft and safely conveyed the passengers, crew and cargo to a destination, then he has done his job. In consideration of this, he has the right to refuse carriage to any passengers and cargo he sees fit, and he is under no obligation to operate the flight unless he is absolutely satisfied to do so.

[aScottishBloke]

Bealzebub,

I agree, I'm going to seek legal advice on my position. It just seems the t&c's are fully loaded against me, and as I behaved in a fully compliant manner all round, I deem them to be unfair, but you're right, one for the legal profession.

As per my aim of the post, I seek precedent's I could call upon, however and rather alarmingly, they seem very thin on the ground.

[perkin]

Seriously fella, I'd just let it go and get on with your life. Put it down to experience...

In over over 150 sectors commuting to AMS & occasionally ABZ, I've only ever seen one person off-loaded by a Captain (with 2 burly baggage handlers lurking about...!) and that was for some seriously obnoxious behaviour towards the lone cabin crew on an EMB145, so I'm quite convinced that something precipitated this situation and you may just be prolonging your misery by pursuing this in the courts as the airline was well within their rights to eject you.

Same as a pub landlord can basically refuse you entry to his premises for whatever reason he wishes.

[bealine]

Yes, it's strange! aScottishBloke must feel that the airline's decision was unjustified.

Putting the boot on the other foot, I was working at Gatwick at the time we had the "nutter" storm the BA2069 NBO flight with a knife and the 747 aircraft went out of control while the Flight Crew and the Upper Deck Club passengers fought him. The "nutter" acted suspiciously all the way through the airport and was assessed by check in staff, the police and the flying crew - all of whom thought he was screwy but well enough to fly!

Given that instances of "ground rage" and "air rage" are at unprecedented levels, the airline and the captain must retain the right to offload a passenger on suspicion. The collective safety of the crew and the other passengers must come first. Similarly, if a passenger appears unwell, the captain should refuse to take him/her (a) because of the risk of other passengers becoming infected and (b) the risk of diversion, together with the costs involved and the inconvenience to other passengers.

In giving the airline, through its staff, the right to deny boarding, for sure the odd mistake is going to happen! (It certainly did in the fallout from 09/11 when anyone who wore a long beard might be offloaded or relegated to a rear seat where the crew could keep an eagle eye on you!)

Now we can see the angle from both viewpoints. The answer I think lies in people behaving "normally". All too often, groups of lads going to stag weekends behave in the airport like yobs and either receive a stern "talking to" or are denied travel with no hope of refund! Sometimes, in a big show of bravado, they try to steal life-jackets from the aircraft - as far as BA is concerned, that is serious and can result in a travel "ban", if not prosecution, for interfering with the safety of an aircraft! We even had a group of Italian schoolchildren trying to vandalise the interior of a B737!

Given that most captains will have been involved in a fair few serious incidents involving passengers, and most members of our judiciary will have read about the growing problems of air/ground rage, I think you have an uphill climb to prove you were discriminated against unfairly!

Keep us posted on what Flying Lawyer thinks and what outcome, if any! :ok:

[Leezyjet]

That I find it extremely hard to believe that a lady just took dislike to you.. if you had done NOTHING. It sounds rediculous and I am sure your holding something back.
People don't just take dislike and risk themselves being offloaded for no reason!

It certainly does happen, although not as often as it used to post 11/09. It was mainly on flights to the USA where gentlemen from certain parts of the world are onboard. It was usually some middle class white American passenger boarding the a/c, seeing the gentleman and then coming up with some story that I'm sure you can work out without ever having seen them before !!.

If I were you aScottishBloke, I wouldn't waste my time going to court, in this case it seems like you would loose anyway as has been stated, the odds are heavily against you. Trial by media would probably have a much better result. Get on to the Daily Record or other similar paper. The bad publicity may well loose the airline more business from other football fans than it would have cost them to re-imburse you and your group.

:ok:

[naughtynurse]

You have proved yourself to tell stories and mistruth's on many forums on other sites.I like ur dating agency profile btw.
PS:I would have also refused to board with horrible inbred lout like yourself.Much lve from you know who!:ugh:

[Abusing_the_sky]

Oh dear....
Anyone up for Jeremy Kyle/ Jerry Springer?:}

Stand by, don't start before i get me popcorn and the required fizzy drink.





(mins later)

Got them. Let the games begin!:}

Rgds,
ATS

[TightSlot]

naughtynurse has now joined the outer realms of darkness

[hellsbrink]

Spamfritters

I've seen people ejected from various premises because of the say-so of one person when they have done nothing wrong.

I've seen people escorted from Heathrow on the say-so of one nervous passenger despite doing nothing whatsoever.

I've seen people taken off trains because one person said "he tried to grope me/said things sexually offensive" when all he did was hold out a hand to stop her falling or she heard a conversation that was nothing to do with her.

Let me put it this way, if you have a nervous/ panicky/tipsy/drugged/whatever woman and she says something, whether she claims it was abuse/they are drunk/whatever then most times they will believe the woman, especially if anything sexual is involved. For all we know, ASG could be lying. But, on the other hand, the woman could have taken offence because she tried to chat up one of his friends and he told her he wasn't interested. It is as simple as that, and what happens on the streets of London DOES have bearing on the actions of the crew as it is EXACTLY the same scenario no matter where it is.

Yes, they had been drinking but how do you know she wasn't under the influence or suffering the after effects of some sort of drug, legal or otherwise? After all, if ASG is to believed, she had already been refused carriage so that should have set alarm bells ringing with the Captain.

Peace