Air ambulance/ Police- winching/ onshore rescue [Archive]

Vie sans frontieres

6th Feb 2008, 06:45

Russell,

Ideas like this always work in theory but the reality is Air Ambulances would have to go from having a pilot and two paramedics to a SAR trained pilot, a fully trained winch operator and a fully trained winchman - rearcrew whose medical skills may be somewhat less than the incumbents. Do you really then have an improved capability?

It's easy fall into the trap of watching videos like the ones posted by TeeS & Brilliant Stuff and think - "I could do that - I'm sure an Air Ambulance paramedic could too". I'm sure he could, after the appropriate amount of training. Training that will come to the fore not on nice days like the ones shown but on sh1tty days where it's all going wrong. Can the Air Ambulance charities afford the 100 hours or so per crew member required to turn them into fledgling SAR crew? Do these charities then have the time and money to devote to ensuring that this fledgling SAR crew have adequate continuation and currency training? These are perishable skills you know. Aviation is littered with the corpses of people who have bitten off more than they could chew and when an inexperienced crew get 'rescue fever' and envisage their names in the papers, common sense doesn't always prevail.

Factor in all the other points about performance, lack of cabin space etc and you'll see that although the Air Ambulance publicity men might get all moist about a proposed winching capability, putting it into practice is somewhat different.

driver attendant

6th Feb 2008, 07:52

Felt compelled to sign up just to comment on the last thread, what a load of PISH!!! how dare you say 'inexperienced crew get 'rescue fever'..... I've been flying air ambs for the last 8 years after a long career in the RAF and SAR. I agree that aviation is littered with corpses but please, do you really think that air ambulance's employ complete nuggets??

I dont see a need for a winch personally on ours but as stated ealier, in places where the geography suits, then why not bring another trade to the table??? After all, can you imagine the flak that would have come years ago even by suggesting taking people to hospital by helicopter.

This forum seems to be filled with a lot of people who feel no one else can achieve what they have done and yet fail to realise that once upon a time they were sat with the student hat on.

Driver attendant.

MINself

6th Feb 2008, 09:12

Air Ambulances would have to go from having a pilot and two paramedics to a SAR trained pilot...

The scenarios being mooted on this and other threads regarding the type of winching would not necessitate the pilot being SAR trained.

The pilot would need to have completed an approved winching course and the recurrent training. If the Air Ambulances in the UK want to winch because they believe it will give them an increase capability and they have completed their own feasibility study and on-going risk assessments then why not? The SAR Pilots course whilst necessarily comprehensive would be unnecessary in length and content for the limited day onshore winching that the Air Ambulances are considering, which would be more than covered by a CAA approved tailored course.

This subject is quite an emotive one with some who would deride the possibility of other agencies expanding into "their" area, personally as this will save lives I'm in the "For" camp.

sunnywa

6th Feb 2008, 09:55

At the risk of offending some of our UK cousins, it seems to me that having your CAA not letting (or putting up roadblocks) in fitting of winches (and thus the use of winches for life saving purposes in areas where you can't land) is extremely daft.

Around the world, civilian helicopters have been successfully winching for 50 years, and most (if not all) EMS helicopters I know of have the capability. Yes, it does cost in the installation, initial and ongoing training but if a charity/organisation wishes to pay for it, then why not. The training is not difficult and the normal crew in Oz for day and night ops is a Pilot (look at me I can hover above these trees without moving too much), a winchman and the paramedic who goes down the wire.

I am suprised the Met's new 145's are not allowed to winch or fast rope as I believed that was what they were purchased for. Doesn't the CAA realise that you don't need to be a wunderbar pilot (or crew) to do the role.

Just my point of view but I would feel a bit naked if I left my winch at home.

[email protected]

6th Feb 2008, 11:01

I believe the problem will come when deciding where to draw the line on when to winch and when not to. The argument about 'where geography suits' is going to mean the Peak District and some of Cumbria as well as scores of other places well inland away from SAR flights and with poor road access.

So, whilst there may be many occassions where it is difficult to land on but easy to winch with 10 to 50 feet of cable, where does the non-SAR trained crew stop and say no? This is the rescue fever that Vie speaks of, if you have a casualty on a steep hillside or cliff on a turbulent day in crappy weather and you have a winch on the side of the aircraft, do you go for it anyway and put the crew and casualty at more risk than on your normal operations or do you wait for a SAR crew?

Do your rearcrew acknowledge the extra personal risk involved in dangling 50 feet or more on a wire?

One argument is that 'If it saves one life then it is worth it' but the counter-argument is that 'If it costs one life then it is too expensive' must also be considered.

If an inexperienced winch-op (since he is the crucial element in winching, not the pilot) injures or kills his winchman and/or the casualty because the crew had a winch and didn't think they should wait for SAR, what damage will that do do the excellent reputation of Air Ambs across UK?

All helicopter pilots can hover over land but winch-opping is a specialist skill that requires lots of training and plenty of practice. If the charities want to fund it then crack on but don't expect miracles. If it were me, I would make sure they all did a full SAR winch-ops course with annual competency checks.

tecpilot

6th Feb 2008, 13:29

Sure the friends and enemies will find a lot of pro and contra but winching or shorthaul are normal procedures for not so few air rescue units across Europe and believe me the conditions in the UK are not so different compared to other countries from Scandinavia to Italy.

Flaxton Flyer

6th Feb 2008, 14:42

It's important that people realise exactly what's being considered here before jumping to conclusions. A HEMS tasking can be either transporting a patient or delivering medical aid to the incident site.

All that has been asked for is the ability to deliver a member of the medical aircrew or equipment to an incident where the aircraft would not be able to land, and get said medical man back out again if necessary. In other words, winch him down and maybe back up again.

That's it. No winching up of stretchers, patients etc into the aircraft. No night winching, no cliff-face winching, no IFR winching, no maritime winching, no winching off seamen from capsizing yachts in Force 10 gale 70 miles out into the Atlantic, no "poaching" of patients from the RAF, MCA or any other acronym you care to mention. No anything else at all.

If it proves to be a white elephant that takes up lots of funds for training and is never used "in anger" then it will be dropped and funds channelled elsewhere.

If it works and actually adds something to the service then great – build up experience and maybe later add a little bit more like lifting the patient/stretcher out of the inaccessible area when necessary and placing them in a more suitable area from where they can be physically lifted into the aircraft if transporting is deemed necessary.

whoateallthepies

7th Feb 2008, 03:50

Flaxton
I think you've answered my question!
Good luck with it.http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[email protected]

7th Feb 2008, 08:03

Flaxton - if your AA is going to take this task on then surely you have a weight of evidence to support using these funds in the first place. There must have been sufficient numbers of jobs (rather than just the odd one or two) where the winch would have significantly enhanced your ability to provide medical care. If not then it would seem irresponsible to use donated funds on the off chance that you might use the capability.

If all you intend to do is save the paramedic/doctor a bit of a walk then the extra risk is, in my view, unjustified. Will they get paid more for the added reponsibility of winching/being winched and will their extra life insurance premiums be paid by the charity?

Tec-pilot the main difference is that there is a fully established SAR system in UK for onshore work as well as offshore to provide this capability whereas in many areas of Europe there is not.

jackjack08

7th Feb 2008, 08:34

Crabb

I thought that the primary role for Mil SAR UK was recovery and rescue of 'downed' sevice personnel. It seems because the SAR have 'winch' capability that 'in time of need inland' no rescue agencies had anybody else to turn to for winch capability, it has now become apparent that 'flaxton flyer' is painting a diffrent picture. i don't know of any ruling that the mil SAR has overall rights to do all the uk winching inland unless you can advise me any different ! :=

It seems times are changing and there is a need to put specialist teams, Ie USAR www.usar.org.uk (http://www.usar.org.uk) personnel into areas that are inaccesible. Mil SAR are not always available. It seems we overlook the patients who are 'time critical' or who would benefit from intervention within the GOLDEN HOUR

[email protected]

7th Feb 2008, 08:48

jackjack - that downed military personnel was the original concept of ops but we have moved on from WW2 - 95% minimum of our jobs are civilian rescues and more than half are inland. It may still be our priority but it is not a very regular occurence.

We don't have automatic rights to overland winching but we are the only ones to do it at night and will be in the future, regardless of how many AA get winches.

This is not a protectionist standpoint, SAR and AA fulfill different roles with a small amount of capability crossover - I believe the need for AA winching does not justify the cost or the extra risk to the crews.

USAR teams are likely to be at least as big as MIRG teams and therefore you need a big helicopter to get them and any kit in, so SAR (whether mil or not) will still be the answer. Some Fire Brigades have mooted the idea of having their own dedicated helicopters but, since government funding for normal Fire Brigade ops is dwindling, this is unlikely to come to fruition since the capability (in the form of SAR) alrerady exists.

Flaxton Flyer

7th Feb 2008, 09:53

Crab -

We have a traction splint on the aircraft on on the off-chance we might need it. We have a KED on the aircraft on the off-chance we might need it. (I can remember using it once in two and a half years)We will have a winch on the aircraft for the same reason. Different finances, same concept.

Saving the paramedic a bit of a walk...The whole point of the initial phase of this trial is to get the paramedic and kit to the inaccessible patient in the shortest time possible. I'm sure you would have no trouble fighting your way up 200 metres of steep, wet, boggy, bracken covered hillside carrying a 30lb+ rucksack full of gear, but the average paramedic does. Discounting the time involved, they would probably be needing medical care themselves. How is that helping the patient?

As said, if it proves feasible, safe and a useful addition to our service we will look at lifting the patient to a more accessible location for loading.

Very public-spirited of you to question the use of "donated funds". But then again you don't know how the funding for this project was raised, now do you? Assumption can be a terrible thing, Crab.

Any funds donated from the public to run the operation (which I guess is where you are aiming with this) are freely given to spend as the Trustee board feel is appropriate. If the public don't like what the money is being spent on, they have a right not to donate.

Risk and expense justified? We'll have to wait and see. But even if it only helps to save one life a year wouldn't that be justification enough? (For the expense that is - I appreciate your earlier comments about balancing possible saving of life against possible loss of rescuer's life)

Oh and consider this - every hour we spend sat on lonely hillsides waiting for Fell / Mountain resue teams to arrive to help extricate a patient from a difficult location is an hour off-line where somebody else may need our help.

And no, that is not a dig at those agencies who, do a stirling job, it' s just a fact.

nodrama

7th Feb 2008, 10:31

It's not winching, but it's a 135 that's got the fittings.

It's yellow and is based south of the A303.

jackjack08

7th Feb 2008, 12:06

It sounds like someone has done a lot of research on this subject and somebody will of put a solid case forward to the CAA for approval, whichever AA or 135 it is !
I can only say that having options for treatment of patients is paramount and if this extra 'add-on' gives the team that, then I say Well Done. Thinking ouside the box helps develop new and innovative ways of dealing with patients.

The echoes of 'It can't be done by civvies' is obviously going to change.

Well done to those who carried on fighting through the CAA red tape and came out the other side smiling.

[email protected]

7th Feb 2008, 15:32

Flaxton - if you use the KED or the traction splint inappropriately you don't put the crew at increased risk nor do you endanger the life of the patient so your analogy is invalid. As it happens ours get used quite a lot.

My remark about saving the paramedic a walk was intentionally flippant but you haven't answered the question about showing a need for the winch before spending the money on it. Yes the trustees can use the donations as they wish (we've been round this buoy before) but what will you do if the winching goes wrong and the public stop donating? Your remark about the public having a right not to donate is rather arrogant - have you asked them all if they want to pay for the extra capability?

You are also changing your tune since you stated previously that the winch would only be used to deploy the paramedic, now you talk about repositioning the casualty as well - this is the sort of mission creep that turns into full blown rescue attempts.

And you want to do the fell/mountain rescuers jobs for them as well - if the casualty is in an inaccessible place then call a SAR heli while you maintain your standby for jobs you are equipped to do.

As I strive to remind our crews, knowing when to say no is the most difficult part of being in the rescue business - I think the addition of the winch to AA will make it far more difficult for your crews to do this.

3D CAM

7th Feb 2008, 15:45

FF wrote

We have a traction splint on the aircraft on on the off-chance we might need it. We have a KED on the aircraft on the off-chance we might need it. (I can remember using it once in two and a half years)We will have a winch on the aircraft for the same reason. Different finances, same concept.

So just how often go you propose to train with the hoist? Once/twice a blue moon?
I can just imagine the conversation in your aircraft. Something like, " I've seen them do this on Seaside Rescue, no problem for us! O.K. left a bit, a bit more, whats that noise?? Oh S:mad:t!!"
It's not a dark art but does need regular practice.

jackjack08

7th Feb 2008, 16:48

Crabb
if you use the KED or the traction splint inappropriately you don't put the crew at increased risk nor do you endanger the life of the patient

Your comment above shows how little knowledge you have of the devices you say you use.

The KED is an inline immobilisation device for the extrication or rescue of a suspected spinal injury patient. used incorrectly, permenant disability to the patient can be the end result.

The traction splint is used for long bone fractures, any other associated fractures can be compromised by this device, IE fractured pelvis. using this device with a long bone injury and a pelvis fracture can cause that much blood loss that the patient could die in your arms. Not nice ! :ugh:

It seems that everyone is centred around the recurrent training. I would think that whoever/whenever this begins the CAA will have already approved a recognised training programme and put in BIG black letters the amount of minimum recurrency training for each winch operative per month/per annum. :ok:

timex

7th Feb 2008, 16:50

FF, I take it that if this goes ahead you will then have to carry a winch op in the back of the A/C as well as the Medic? Will you have the space and the payload available, or will the front seat medic also do the winching?

Just curious as I drive a 135 and don't think that the Police cabs would have the capability without taking a big hit on the fuel.

tecpilot

7th Feb 2008, 17:25

Crab,

only in the very small countries of Europe we find not an immediate military SAR system. But from Norway to Italy and from Poland to Portugal military and civ air rescue units working hand in hand. And nearly everywhere the military decrease his engagement due to other problems in the last years pleased about mor civ power.

In the UK it seems more like a struggle about future funds? I don´t feel rescue times of 60 minutes like in the military SAR system in some areas are ok. Civ rescue operators are able to bring help in 10 to 15 minutes.

But there are no questions, the mil have done a superb job in the last decades and it will need years for civ operators to reach the same power and skills. But it´s possible, why not?

Timex,

(rescue) winching is done regularly by police units in Europe, also and especially with EC 135. Also under NVG and in high altitudes. Of course with limited weight.

Flaxton Flyer

7th Feb 2008, 18:56

timex - one of the medics will be the winch-op. On arrival at the scene, we will land at the nearest suitable spot as usual. If the cas is within a sensible walking distance, and accessible, it will be treated as a normal HEMS tasking. IF it is thought appropriate to use the winch, the aircraft/crew will be prepped accordingly with both medics in the cabin.

Crab said " You are also changing your tune since you stated previously that the winch would only be used to deploy the paramedic, now you talk about repositioning the casualty as well - this is the sort of mission creep that turns into full blown rescue attempts"

No, I talk about "looking at repositioning the casualty" Here's my earlier tune in case you misheard it.

"If it works and actually adds something to the service then great – build up experience and maybe later add a little bit more like lifting the patient/stretcher out of the inaccessible area when necessary and placing them in a more suitable area from where they can be physically lifted into the aircraft if transporting is deemed necessary"

As for showing a need to use a winch, that's not up to me, fella. If the trustees feel it is warranted - for whatever reason - that is their decision.
They may ask me if something is feasible operationally and I'll give them my honest opinion and that's it.

"Your remark about the public having a right not to donate is rather arrogant - have you asked them all if they want to pay for the extra capability?"

Have you asked all the UK taxpayers if they want to donate to your operation??

The fact is that when people donate money without any stipulation on how it is to be used, it is up to the trustees to spend it on what they consider appropriate for the service. If people see what it is being spent on and don't like it then they will vote with their wallet. I don't see how stating that is "arrogant" ??

Were the public asked if we should upgrade the Bolkow to an Explorer? Were they asked if we should invest in the Airdesk technology? Or the purchase of the second Explorer? Or the RRV for use when the aircraft is off-line? NO of course not, but they were all decisions that have helped move our service forward. Decisions made by the Trustees. Trustees. the name says it all.

And you want to do the fell/mountain rescuers jobs for them as well - if the casualty is in an inaccessible place then call a SAR heli while you maintain your standby for jobs you are equipped to do.

Getting aid to the casualty (and getting them to hospital if necessary) is our job, we are quite aware of that. However, if having a winch on the aircraft helps us do that in some way, then we'll have one, thanks. We do call fell rescue and we do call SAR and we will continue to do so when necessary. And I'm sure you will continue to come. Provided of course, you are not trying to blag your way onto some RTC that you are not equipped to do....:)

One day we will get our winch. Then we will be trained under a CAA-approved program by professional instructors until we are considered competent enough to safely winch a paramedic up and down. We will then continue to train as much as is necessary to keep our skills sharp. We will monitor the whole program for as long as necessary to make an informed decision about where - if anywhere - to go with the program.

Everybody involved is acutely aware that it has to be done correctly otherwise a complete cluster-*** will ensue. If it does not work, it will not continue, period.

Or in the very carefully considered and thought-out opinion of 3D Cam
" I've seen them do this on Seaside Rescue, no problem for us! O.K. left a bit, a bit more, whats that noise?? Oh S:mad:t!!":rolleyes:

[email protected]

7th Feb 2008, 20:04

Flaxton - looking at repositioning the casualty and actually repositioning the casualty are so close to each other as to be almost identical since the intention is clear but if that's the way you want to spin your statements then fine.

What is arrogant is saying if the public don't like your idea then they can just stop donating. Our job is the responsibility of government to discharge iaw the Chicago Convention and they are elected to spend the taxpayers money - can you say the same for your trustees and your operational remit?

You say you will train until you are capable of safely winching a paramedic up and down - you have only just told me you intend to winch the casualty as well if appropriate, extra training or cuffing it?

Jack jack - inappropriate use of the KED won't kill someone and it is always possible for a fractured pelvis to go unnoticed - I am well aware of what the kit is and how it works I was just highlighting the weakness in FFs analogy.

Tec pilot - the siting of SAR bases is designed to meet govt requirements for response times, much like the positioning of ambulances - do we need more money if we want a gold plated service? yes but I can't see it happening. There is nothing wrong with civilian rescuers but they must be properly established and trained specifically for the job if it is to be done properly and above all else they must keep current and proficient which is where the extra costs come in.

Thud_and_Blunder

7th Feb 2008, 20:26

An enjoyable read so far. Who...pies, could this tempt you away from 70,000 tax-free per year and back to your spiritual home?!

Nodrama, you'll have gathered that the main protagonist here is a newly acquired 902 based oop north. Mind you, a winch-equipped heli might've helped with this job not a million miles from Henstridge a couple of years ago...

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa61/Rough_and_Toothless/DSC02830.jpg

... or perhaps not (it's a paraglider pilot stuck 80 feet up a tree. We flew in the Fire & Rescue Service specialist team and left them to it)

FF, all the best with the idea; I'm sure you'll do what's best for the patients. Don't worry too much about trying to convince Crab about anything; you might recall the recent discussions about carrying doctors as part of the crew.

Russell Sprout

7th Feb 2008, 20:46

Flippin eck guys, yet another Prune pissing contest,

Crab,

I don't think for one moment you were born with a yellow helmet and i see through your threads that you ooze the ethos of being the dogs dangles that the military drummed into me too, by hinting that only you and the military can do it but no one else can. I also see you standing in line one day, queuing for a police/ AA job just like the rest of us..... What i'm hinting at is that when you do, you will realize that you got the job due to your experience level and that the skills you use positioning a helicopter feet away from a motorway light stantion at a big smash is the same proven skill that you use in your current job...... Just remember that one day you too will be a Civvy w&*nker that is more than capable of doing the job like the rest of us.

Flaxton,

Sign me up for some of that winching malarkey!!!! It's about time that Air Ambulances became useful emergency service platforms....... any sniff of a fire bucket too?

Jackjack,

:ok:

Vie sans frontieres

7th Feb 2008, 22:19

Sign me up for some of that winching malarkey!!!! It's about time that Air Ambulances became useful emergency service platforms....... any sniff of a fire bucket too?

God help us.

driver attendant asked if I thought Air Ambulances employed complete nuggets. Er, sometimes, by the look of it.

[email protected]

8th Feb 2008, 05:43

Russell - I have not turned this into a pissing contest - others jump to the conclusion that I am saying only SAR can winch which is not true at all.

If you read what I have said, the pilot skills are almost irrelevant in this situation - if you can't hover then get out of the cockpit - it is the winch op training that will be vital. Unlike us drivers, there are not hordes of experienced winch ops who are qualified paramedics and willing to operate in an air ambulance - that means training them from scratch. This will take time and money and may produce good operators in time. BUT just consider what it is like with a brand new winch op, straight off the course, how many mistakes will they make and how many can you afford for them to make? It is a big training burden any anyone who thinks differently is deluding themselves.

Thud - it takes a reasoned argument with some proper evidence to convince me - not just an attitude of 'we want to do it and we can so there'. In this case particularly the risk assessment seems flawed.

whoateallthepies

8th Feb 2008, 08:20

Thud
Nice pic and it would be nice if UK emergency service aviation paid better! My "spiritual home", as you say.

I've done Crab's job and I've done Flaxton's job and I understand the problems. It's true that when you are the dedicated SAR bunch you feel that no-one can come near your high standards and it is also true that RAF SAR are the best trained and equipped for the job. However, the point has been made that there may be significant delay in them attending onshore jobs. Equip the AA with a winch and there will be situations where they could get on with the job without having to tie up a significantly larger heli. I can remember just such a situation back when I was with AA. Car down an embankment through some trees. Long walk and scramble to the location, nowhere to land close by but space to winch and pop a paramedic down and winch up again if needs be. An easy place for a winch op to talk the pilot to. We had to wait for our mates from Leconfield SAR to bring their Seaking.

At Yorks AA we perceived a need for delivery of equipment underslung. I set about training the paramedics on basic talkdown "patter" for positioning and picking up loads. They quickly grasped it. The cost of the extra training flights was approved by the charity as there was an obvious benefit to the operation. The paramedics would, I'm sure, make excellent winch ops for straightforward overland operations.

I understand the concern about attempting rescues which may be beyond their basic capabilities but the pilots involved in AA are not mugs and they know when to say "No". And as far as I remember, paramedics are an intelligent bunch who put flight safety first. If any member of my crew was unhappy with a situation, we would pull off. No questions.

I wish Flaxton and his crew all the best with their new skills.http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

thorpey

8th Feb 2008, 08:28

Well said, i too thought paramedics were bright people and am sure under proper instruction ,from the right people, will learn the tasks involved, and am sure will walk before they can run. Highest respect to dedicated SAR crews but me thinks it`s possible. Good luck, oop north.

Flaxton Flyer

8th Feb 2008, 08:31

Crab -

What is arrogant is saying if the public don't like your idea then they can just stop donating. Our job is the responsibility of government to discharge iaw the Chicago Convention and they are elected to spend the taxpayers money - can you say the same for your trustees and your operational remit?

Of course not. But I can say that just as the Government are elected to spend our money, the Trustees are entrusted to spend the money raised by the charity. I have no say at all in what my tax money is spent on, and I cannot withhold it. Our benefactors can and will if they don't like what we are spending it on.

Have you ever donated to a charity? Did you specify how your donation was to be used?

"You say you will train until you are capable of safely winching a paramedic up and down - you have only just told me you intend to winch the casualty as well if appropriate, extra training or cuffing it?"

Careful, slipping into 3DCam mode there. Why do you have this impression of AA crews as incompetent devil-may-care flyboys?? You really should get out in the real world for a while and have a look around. We all have families to go home to at the end of the day and nobody is taking this lightly. The CAA may have their knockers, but the one thing they will always do is cover their backsides. IF they approve something, you can guarantee that it is as safe and comprehensive as it possibly can be.
Nobody is intending to "cuff" anything. Shame on you for suggesting otherwise.

Just to re-iterate - I have not told you we are intending to winch patients, I have told you we will be looking at it. Same as we will be looking at full-time doctors on board, night transfers etc etc. Things evolve, that's how we get better.

Thing is Crab, we're never going to agree on this, so I'll wander off to some other thread and find somebody else to annoy. Be careful out there.

P.S.
I guess this is probably a bad time to mention phase 3 - our plan to parachute-deploy our lightweight 4x4 rescue buggy through the rear loading door?

Russell - I'll knock up a quick winching DVD for you. Just sign the enclosed slip to say that you have watched and understood it, that should do. Bring your own gloves and you can start Monday.:ok:

Ref the fire bucket.....I'll have a word with the Trustees and get back to you.

Bertie Thruster

8th Feb 2008, 10:32

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/nmhsu/1199740301_TN.jpg

..not to mention the excellent nose mounted radar that allows useful overwater IMC/night letdowns!.........

Flaxton Flyer

8th Feb 2008, 12:47

Er.... best keep that quiet Bertie..We bought it primarily so that as well as doing the jobs of SAR and Fell / Mountain Rescue, we can also put the radiologists out of work with our on-site X-ray capability.
http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/aol/redir?src=image&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretfunspot.com%2Fblog%2FB LOG01b.jpg&moduleId=image_details.jsp.M&clickedItemDescription=Image Details

HAL9000

8th Feb 2008, 16:44

[email protected]

8th Feb 2008, 17:38

Yaaaaawwwwnnnnn.........still waiting for your justification eg numbers of jobs that needed a winch to improve delivery of care.

So once you train to winch the paramedic and then LOOK at winching the casualty, having decided you do want that extra capability will you go and retrain to winch stretchers and the like or will you just try it and see. What have the CAA actually agreed for you to do - winch paramedics in and out or casualties as well, paramedics are crew - do the casualties count as passengers?

Lots of guys I flew with are now out doing AA and police work so I know it is not populated by numpties but you assume that your bright paramedics will have enough other skills and aviation awareness to pick up winching just like that. How long do we take before we let winchops out on jobs without supervision?

HAL9000 - well said chap:ok:

3D CAM

8th Feb 2008, 18:02

Thud.
Nice piccie...
a winch-equipped heli might've helped with this job not a million miles from Henstridge a couple of years ago...
errrr. howabout Portland?:confused:

JimL

8th Feb 2008, 18:18

This thread started with a question asking about winch-fitted HEMS helicopters in the UK. The question I would have posed would have been "is there an operational requirement for winching by HEMS helicopters in the UK and would it add a cost-effective capability".

If a comparison with HEMS operators in Europe was required one could look to JAA TGL 43, paragraph 1.7.6, where it could be seen that HEC flights (that is both winching and long/short haul) occur in about 20% of the missions - not surprising really as the operational area is the Alps.

It would therefore appear that geography plays a large part; as does the presence of a large transient population conducting recreational sports - which indicates a certain amount of risk.

There is nothing in the extant regulation that prevents winching by UK HEMS operators; it can therefore probably be observed that: the reduction of payload; the additional cost of equipment; and training (which in the UK has to be at HEC Class D Standards), outweigh the potential benefits.

The fact that there do not appear to have been any cost benefit analyses (or none that I have heard of) probably indicates that the sums can be done on the back of a 'fag packet' - or put more scientifically, qualitatively.

Jim

MINself

8th Feb 2008, 18:45

The AA unit in question have conducted a review of the previous occasions when a winch would have been useful and have decided that this figure, whatever it is, warrants beginning winching operations, all be it in a limited capacity.

Besides a winch there are other pieces of equipment that may not get used on a daily basis but when on the occasion they are required they still help to achieve the task. Does their lack of regular use make them any the less important, no of course not.

...let the civvy helicopters fit whatever rescue kit they like and take on whatever roles they like.

you might just be on to somthing here :ok:

[email protected]

9th Feb 2008, 05:40

In which case maybe FF would like to detail the extensive winching experience he has that allows him to fly in the face of what would seem common sense. FF if you are an experienced pilot with lots of winching experience, you might just make it work safely since you would be the arbiter of what is acceptable and not in terms of winch op performance.

Could you also detail the planned working patterns of the guys who will be winch opping in terms of flying continuity and planned winching currency and practice.

Still haven't found out what that magic number of jobs is that prompted this drive for extra capability.

So far it still sounds like 'back of a fag packet' to me.

Flaxton Flyer

9th Feb 2008, 08:30

Crab -" Yaaaaawwwwnnnnn.........still waiting for your justification eg numbers of jobs that needed a winch to improve delivery of care"

Err..why do we have to justify anything to you? Who put you in charge?? :confused:

psyclic

9th Feb 2008, 08:39

Still haven't found out what that magic number of jobs is that prompted this drive for extra capability.

You already have a record Crab......it's the total number of jobs that RAFSAR have been called to do in the Peaks.:ok:

Daylight of course.

The night winching will come in due course.:}

HAL9000

9th Feb 2008, 08:52

At the moment I believe that almost all the AAs/HEMS conduct what is, effectively, flying from point A to point B in Day/VMC. Therefore, even in this very narrow role there is no all weather, day/night provision of a AA/HEMS service.

When blowing their own trumpets whilst waving a collecting tin under our noses, the fact that they shut up shop when the weather gets bad and/or it gets dark, leaving the military (RN and RAF) to do the more difficult stuff, is conveniently ignored.

My question is, why not learn to walk before you try to run. Develop a day/night/IMC med-transfer capability first and then build on that?

psyclic

9th Feb 2008, 09:22

My question is, why not learn to walk before you try to run.

Quite a few ex "runners" out here in the UK HEMS world; from the CAA to AOC holders and the 'workers'.

.....and one or two new steps to learn for 'ex-runners'....

for example, at a job you actually have to get out of the front seat and help!

Droopystop

9th Feb 2008, 13:55

HAL,

I believe that HEMS are already walking..... all the Scottish AA are H24 IFR, yes even the helicopters. The problem with doing that though is availability of H24 airports with IAPs. And I am sure that someone will come up with the argument that a winch increases capability more than an IFR capability - who's to say they are wrong? Besides flying in marginal VFR conditions as HEMS often do is far more challenging than IFR.

As for your comment which if I'm not mistaken amounts to giving the HEMS guys enough rope with which to hang themselves. What sort of person are you? That's like me saying why don't the RAF remove their SAR capability from the country and send all the crews to front line taskings to get shot at. Afterall only 5% of UK SAR taskings are for military operations. And no I don't think like that.

What really annoys me is this RAF attitude that they are the only ones worthy of any interesting flying. You may well be the best (although some Pongo mates would contest that and I'm not talking pilots) but you are not the only ones capable of quality training and training is the bed rock of capability.

Wake up guys, civillian operators have been winching for decades. We are not talking having the ability to winch to heaving decks or big cliffs. How much of the SARTUs winch ops course is devoted to winching to decks 50%? more? Basic winching is not a black art, all it takes is training, practice and some money. If the charities and ultimately those that donate deem that to be worthy of their cash then so be it. It is not for any of us to question the ethics.

ShyTorque

9th Feb 2008, 16:06

In order to raise the level of debate here somewhat, I say let the civvy helicopters fit whatever rescue kit they like and take on whatever roles they like. Only by learning the hard way will they ever learn to take advice.

You just can't save some people from themselves.

For goodness' sake, think outside of the box!

One AA pilot, right here in this debate (now flying a little yellow low-noise signature Hoover) used to be the RAF's SAR Sea King Examiner, although he doesn't blow his own trumpet...

To the folks who think that civvies can't do the job - Does that put it in perspective a little better?

FiveSevenAlpha

9th Feb 2008, 16:07

Speaking as someone who's a Trustee of a UK AA charity, I remain to be convinced that fitting a winch to one or all of our aircraft is something we should consider. Some of our paramedics asked about it a few years ago, but when I pointed out the not insignificant number of hours that would need to be spent in achieving and then maintaining currency, the subject was dropped. Speaking personally, I can't see the financial costs being outweighed by the occasional benefits of having a winch-equipped aircraft and I'll say as much if ever the Trustees are asked to consider funding for such a project.

That's not to say that other charities shouldn't go down that route - I just know where our current financial priorities lie and equipping our a/c with winches isn't on the list. I suspect the AA community will be watching any developments in Yorkshire/anywhere else with great interest.

On a related matter, I remember being told by a SAR flight pilot that there was no way they could support a fundraising "heli-day" in the very early days of the charity, since "you'll soon be taking most of our jobs". Nothing could be further from the truth, as it happens, as our paramedics know full well that an early call for a SAR cab is almost always beneficial for the patient. There are certain regular incident locations (a popular set of waterfalls, for example) where experience has shown that the patient is usually accessible to the paramedics after a short-ish walk in, but that the best way of removing said patient is usually via winch.

57A

Russell Sprout

9th Feb 2008, 17:00

Now that we are 20+ years down the line of air ambulance operations any charity that is happy to sit back and plod on with a normal 10 hour DAY/ VFR shift pattern should really be thinking about if they really are providing the best service they can.

The charities have all come along way since first shaking the tins years ago and are probably all now multi million pound businesses that are probably now in the position to start pushing forward with the advancement of air ambulance operations....

By adding a winch to any air ambulance will only serve one purpose, and that is to upgrade the service that they offer, o.k not all AA need one but there are quite a lot of hilly areas that make up the UK.

As for All weather Op's, SAR can not provide anything more than a AA can when the weather sets in apart from operating over the sea where there is nothing to bump into. If anyone can explain how IFR hill side rescues work then please crack on......

Regarding night HEMS, i'd suggest that a combination of lack of funds/ crews, the fact that most people are in bed at night coupled with the risk to crews out weighing the benefit to patient prevent such ops..... but as already mentioned night transfers are already in operation and once all the AA are on board to provide national coverage at night will advance things greatly.

Thud_and_Blunder

9th Feb 2008, 18:55

...not forgetting, Russell, that 2 operations (Wilts and Sussex) already provide night HEMS to PAOM limits thanks to innovative arrangements twixt 2 emergency services.

Russell Sprout

9th Feb 2008, 20:19

Your right, and what a great balance they have too, maybe we should be looking at emergency service platforms instead of individual AA/ Police machines, having worked on a combined operation before it certainly makes for a busy day, chasing chazs then scooping them off the road after having a front row aerial seat at their demise.:eek:

ShyTorque

9th Feb 2008, 22:16

chasing chazs

Any daves?

Rigga

9th Feb 2008, 22:29

The trouble with winches, when fitted to civil helicopters is...

Can you afford to dedicate a helicopter to this role?

Despite the publicity most winches will require a licenced engineer to fit them - Have you got an engineer on-shift and a spare to replace a duff winch?

How many winches will you need to keep a serviceable winch on a serviceable helicopter?

Winches are governed by "Lifts" - most maintenance programs do not cover Lifts?

Who will attend specific Winch Maintenance Courses? Contract Engineers?

Who will turn the duff winches around quickly enough for you?

Who will pay for your winches? and finally...

Why?

jackjack08

9th Feb 2008, 23:28

Five seven alpha

insignificant number of hours that would need to be spent in achieving and then maintaining currency

Can you expand on the above, What were the initial training costs and currency requirements for your AA that were so bad for you to sideline it ?

Crabb
I see you are requiring statistics from Flaxton flyer that prompted the consideration of hoist ops for the AA.

What amount of jobs should the Air ambulances be doing, that require hoist operations ? Please answer per annum, before YOU think they should consider it to be a viable option to apply to the CAA to do hoist ops themselves. :ok:

FiveSevenAlpha

10th Feb 2008, 08:42

jackjack

You missed out the word "not" from my quote, which makes quite a difference I think you'll agree.

I'm not a HEMS pilot - merely a lapsed PPL(H) - but I am a Trustee of one of the AA charities. Together with my colleagues, I'm responsible for the financial side of the charity and, as I mentioned, the argument for fitting our aircraft with winches isn't one I could currently support. I have limited experience of SAR operations and am well aware that AA winch operations wouldn't involve nights or decks, for example, but there would still be a need for a NOT insignificant number of hours spent ensuring all the paramedics were current at both ends of the winch. That's money that could be used in other areas of the operation.

Russell

You're absolutely correct in that AA helicopters have been operating in the UK for 20+ years. The charity with which I'm involved, however, is one of the newest, having only been formed in 2000. We currently operate 3 helicopters - all Bolkow 105s, which will need to be upgraded to new generation aircraft within the next few years. We're in the fortunate position of not having experienced the kind of funding issues that have haunted some of the other AA charities, but that doesn't mean we can be complacent.

Our priorities are ensuring that our newest airbase becomes a 7 day a week operation, then the new generation helicopters. Fitting winches, and the necessary extra flying hours needed, are currently a long way down the list.

As I said in my earlier post, that doesn't mean I think fitting winches is necessarily a bad idea - just not one that we can justify in the short to medium term. I hope this clears up any confusion.

57A

John Eacott

10th Feb 2008, 10:09

Is anyone else outside the UK viewing this with incredulous amazement? I find it difficult to believe the assertions that seem to be implied here: are we really to believe that winching can only be carried out by the Military?

Since just about every Police and HEMS operation here in Oz is winch equipped and capable, and many have excelled in their ability, I suggest that Crab's claims be taken with a pinch, nay a jar full, of salt.

A few references to look at:

Air Ambulance Victoria. (http://www.ambulance.vic.gov.au/Main-home/What-We-Do/Air-Ambulance/Helicopters.html)

Victoria Police: Air Wing. (http://airwing.uplink.com.au/index.cgi?act=page&f=aircraft)

More VicPol Air Wing. (http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=172)

Queensland EMQ AW139. (http://www.emergency.qld.gov.au/emq/news/view.asp?id=1685)

West Australia Police Air Wing. (http://www.police.wa.gov.au/OurServices/PoliceAirWing/tabid/1006/Default.aspx)

RAAF SAR provided by CHC civilian S76. (http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2004/Feb/260204.cfm)

1998 Sydney Hobart yacht rescue citation, Snowy Hydro Bell 412. (http://www.snowyhydrosouthcare.com.au/page/43)

Wiki entry for 1998 Sydney Hobart. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Sydney_to_Hobart_Yacht_Race)

The list is endless: crab, please research a little bit more outside your fiefdom, and see how it's done around the world: this is but a small example.

Civvies are quite professional, and quite capable. :ok:

Been there, done that, RN & civvie, got the T shirt......

Thomas coupling

10th Feb 2008, 10:47

I find it incredulous that a police/hems driver hasn't mentioned the real reason for NOT winching from civvy cabs.
At the end of the day the Uk operator working under EASA regs [and this is the crippler - unlike our european friends who have seen the light and practice paramilitary ops] - we have to comply with JAR 3005.(h) as JimL said.
It's one of those paras anyway!
It requires those who winch for real, to train to winch in SSE mode. Plain and simple. You have to maintain SSE while trng to rapid rope/winch/etc.
All current light and medium twins in operation on mainland Uk are incapable of sustaining safe single engine in the hover while conducting training winch sorties including the 145. If you stripped it clean of everything including the kitchen sink, you moght be approaching somewhere near SSE but i doubt it. Certainly the 902/135 stables - forget it it is a non starter.

Failing that the emergency services are easily capable of doing everything necessary to offer winching/rapid roping as an option.

Interestingly - an operator is entitled to winch "in anger" in that IF they just happened to find a winch and attach it to their a/c for a regional disaster (flooding for example), they could save peoples lives that day, but it couldn't be sustained as a 'role' because they are not allowed to train in that role unless SSE!!! NUTS. Thats european law for you.

The met cab can't even come to the hover unless it's below a certain MAUM never mind winch!!!

John Eacott

10th Feb 2008, 10:57

TC,

That makes a more compelling reason than the stuff I've read so far: thanks.

Without too much thread drift, but bearing in mind the title of the thread isn't UK exclusive, I dug up the statements from Darryl Jones, the VicPol pilot of the Dauphin during the Sydney Hobart (much like the Fastnet tragedy many years ago).

Darryls record of interview. (http://www.equipped.com/sydney-hobart/Vol%2001%20Docs/JONES%20Darryl%20Anthony%202.PDF)

Darryl's statement. (http://www.equipped.com/sydney-hobart/Vol%2001%20Docs/JONES%20Darryl%20Anthony%201.pdf)

Read and admire what they achieved. Lessons to be learnt all round :D

HAL9000

10th Feb 2008, 13:13

Misrepresenting and misquoting Crab seems to be very popular. Here is what he actually posted earlier:

"If an inexperienced winch-op (since he is the crucial element in winching, not the pilot) injures or kills his winchman and/or the casualty because the crew had a winch and didn't think they should wait for SAR, what damage will that do do the excellent reputation of Air Ambs across UK?

All helicopter pilots can hover over land but winch-opping is a specialist skill that requires lots of training and plenty of practice. If the charities want to fund it then crack on but don't expect miracles. If it were me, I would make sure they all did a full SAR winch-ops course with annual competency checks."

Are his comments really that unreasonable to justify the rabid responses of some posters on this forum?

jackjack08

10th Feb 2008, 13:21

Thomas Coupling

Certainly the 902/135 stables - forget it it is a non starter. :ugh:

Don't you think you missed the point a bit ! i'ts already been approved by the big house at gatwick. They will of seen the business case put forward which included the initial training and recurrency training.

Try; http://www.atlasreed.co.uk/resources/New+HHO+Courses+Outline.pdf

:D

Thomas coupling

10th Feb 2008, 15:00

Jackjack: Of course - anyone can train winch, 3005(h) allows it and thats why external agencies like atlas advertise their courses.
All you have to be able to show in your AOC is that you can comply with the JAR reference.
If your stripped 135/902 can hover on one engine - go for it and good luck.

I challenge ANY UK police 135 to be able to meet the perf specs and would hedge my bet that even the air ambulance light twins couldn't do it either?

By the way, it's not up to the CAA to agree ones "business case", they simply regulate the arrangement you have in place. If you comply - gold star, if you don't they tell you to remove it from your OM.

Following on from this main theme about whether one can winch or not, surely what is the point of a light twin winching anyway - how many people can they fit inside? They'd spend half their lives transitting to and from the incident dropping pax off and having to return for the rest. Great "first responder" a/c but not a proper SAR a/c by a long way.

I would suggest the smallest purpose built SAR cab available today is the AW139. Which we shall see operating off the shores of the UK within months. 3 on the south coast and 2 possibly 3 others further north, very near where I live.:E

Flaxton Flyer

10th Feb 2008, 15:38

Thomas - I guess you could make a case for light twin winches for maritime pilot drops and I'm sure there are other niche markets round and about.

As for the 902, IF I recall correctly we can have HOGE 2.5 min performance at +20c with two paramedics in the back and none of the medikit removed. This with 250lbs (or around 30 mins) useable fuel.

tecpilot

10th Feb 2008, 16:39

JimL, as usual you hit the nail!

It can be done anytime and anywhere in JAA land, it`s only a matter of sense and costs. The ratio between saved lifes or healths and costs. This is only a question to the operator. We are not talking about SAR in ICAO rules, we are talking about winches for AA. There are civil AA helicopters with winches or shorthaul possibilities at least in Norway, Sweden, Germany, Poland, Czech Rep., Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France, Portugal and may be there are some more.

TC, i would advice to inform before talking about "paramilitaries". I know you are living on an island, but it´s all JAA country, and the operators holding AOC`s according to JAR OPS 3. Only the police units have their own (better) rules.

Flaxton, check your possibilities and your needs, make a decision and go ahead. If you need expert help contact IKAR or LAR Luxembourg Air Rescue, also safe in the air with MD 902 with winches regularly used.

[email protected]

10th Feb 2008, 19:51

So, apart from:

1. There still seems to be little actual (instead of perceived) requirement for this capability.

2. None of the aircraft currently in use have the performance to winch in training nor the cabin capacity on ops.

3. FF is deathly silent about his winching experience:)

4. A trustee from another AA charity thinks it is a pointless idea.

5. The paramedics will probably still spend half their time on land ambulances and half on AA (watch the skill fade chaps)

and 6. It will cost a small fortune to train the paramedics to the required standard and then keep them current (and more importantly proficient). And another small fortune to aquire and maintain the hoists.

This is sounding like a really robust and well thought out exercise.

For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly and so far this plan stinks.

Actually, I would rather you got yourselves a bigger helicopter so you can do all the interhospital transfers (ECMO and the like) that SAR helicopters get tasked for day and night.

Or feel free to join in a multi aircraft Op like Gloucester in a 250' cloud base at night - come on down it's easy.........:)

fkelly

10th Feb 2008, 19:59

Crab, perhaps you have done the one thing the UK emergency services air support services fear most, something involving emperors and new clothes...many well intentioned and undoubtedly skilled people providing services that aren't necessarily, err... as essential as most people think.

Flaxton Flyer

11th Feb 2008, 10:25

Crab – do you ever actually read anything anybody else posts before jumping on your keyboard?

Such tosh doesn’t really deserve a reply, but it’s quiet at the moment so I'll indulge you.

“1. There still seems to be little actual (instead of perceived) requirement for this capability”

As you yourself have pointed out on many occasions, you don’t know the figures that this decision has been based on so you are not in a position to say.

2. None of the aircraft currently in use have the performance to winch in training nor the cabin capacity on ops

Wrong and wrong. As I pointed out in my last post our 902 is quite capable of achieving SSE for training purposes. As we are not planning on winching casualties up and into the cabin (not even LOOKING at it) the “lack of cabin capacity” is not an issue.

3. FF is deathly silent about his winching experience

I have the same amount of winch experience as you did before you went on your winching course. In the words of Douglas Bader – “I expect to be taught, Sir”.

But as you yourself said earlier :
“If you read what I have said, the pilot skills are almost irrelevant in this situation - if you can't hover then get out of the cockpit - it is the winch op training that will be vital”

4. A trustee from another AA charity thinks it is a pointless idea.

So that’s one trustee out of one of what, 23 charities then? A resounding “No” to AA winch ops there, eh? Well, not quite, as even this one voice didn’t say it was a pointless idea. What he actually said was :

“As I said in my earlier post, that doesn't mean I think fitting winches is necessarily a bad idea - just not one that we can justify in the short to medium term. I hope this clears up any confusion.”

So do I, but I doubt it. And –

“Our priorities are ensuring that our newest airbase becomes a 7 day a week operation, then the new generation helicopters. Fitting winches, and the necessary extra flying hours needed, are currently a long way down the list”

We have our airbase and our 7 day a week operation and our new generation aircraft. As you can see, we are a lot further down our particular list.

“5. The paramedics will probably still spend half their time on land ambulances and half on AA (watch the skill fade chaps)”

Which is why there will be a robust currency training regime in place.

“6. It will cost a small fortune to train the paramedics to the required standard and then keep them current (and more importantly proficient). And another small fortune to aquire and maintain the hoists”

I’m glad you at least acknowledge that we intend to properly train our crews. And of course you cannot have any idea how much the training will cost, or how it will be financed so you are not qualified to comment on that.

This is sounding like a really robust and well thought out exercise.
For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly and so far this plan stinks.

So let’s look at this “stinky” plan.

Does the Charity have the desire and perceived need to implement a winch program?
YES.

Is the aircraft capable of training SSE as required under JAR?
YES

Will the training be done according to a CAA-approved training programme?
YES

Will the training program be devised and implemented by an external contractor highly experienced in winch training ops?
YES

Will this programme requires a robust currency regime?
YES

Will the programme be implemented in stages?
YES

Does the Charity have any say in the type or amount of training?
NO. The aircraft is owned by the Charity but run under the AOC of one of the longest established Emergency Services providers. (In fact probably one of the places you will be sniffing around when you get disbanded in 2012..)

So to sum up, the Charity have decided they want the winch capability, and they have the funds to pay for it. The AOC operator, with CAA approval, have engaged an external contractor to provide the specialized training. A staged training plan has been put together and approved, which will include robust currency requirements. The winch operations will be constantly monitored and if the charity are happy with the results, it will continue. If not, I have no doubt they will decide to terminate it and look at some other way of improving their service.

Please feel free to point out where this plan “stinks”. Any constructive criticism would be welcome.

Actually, I would rather you got yourselves a bigger helicopter so you can do all the interhospital transfers (ECMO and the like) that SAR helicopters get tasked for day and night.

There might be some mileage in that at a later date. But then, if we took all those jobs off you, would we really be getting value for our “tax dollars” from you?
Large helicopters are great out at sea or over the mountains, but not really suited to the urban environment where we are required to operate from time to time. And most Hospital LS come to that.

“For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly”

Please…. Crab, If that was your true concern, you would be offering help and advice on how to do it safely and properly. Everybody knows you and what your agenda is, don’t try and pretend otherwise, it’s so……transparant.

nodrama

11th Feb 2008, 11:40

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_75.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxmk121YYGB)

Vie sans frontieres

11th Feb 2008, 13:40

Transparant : if that was a deliberate play on words it was very clever. Well done Flaxton Flyer. :O :D

However, I do tend to agree with Crab.

Flaxton Flyer

11th Feb 2008, 14:20

Vie - damn, wish I had done it on purpose. Sadly I'm just an uneducated stick-jockey who can't even find the spell check button. :)

Russell Sprout

11th Feb 2008, 15:49

Time to call it a day me thinks on this thread...... Flax, good luck with the future training, i'm sure it will pay off and be a big step in the right direction for Air ambs....

Crab, when were you at SAAVN? I'm dying to know your true ID, were you that chap stood at the bar every night with no one to talk to???:ugh:

[email protected]

12th Feb 2008, 10:43

FF - Thomas Coupling is an experienced and well respected Police/HEMS pilot and he says you don't have the performance yet you maintain you do - frankly I would take his word over yours anytime.

So you have NO WINCHING EXPERIENCE but you hold court and proclaim what is and isn't feasible or sensible regarding winching - mate you are an accident waiting to happen because you won't listen. I have been doing winching and instructing it and examining it for over 25 years so I have a vague idea of what I am talking about.

Russell - 94 to 01 if you are interested, ask people from 671 if you know any.

You don't seem to understand that I don't care if FF winches or not - I just want to stop well meaning, ambitious amateurs biting off more than they can chew and hurting someone. If FF is the aviation expert advising the trustees and the ambulance service about winching then heaven help the paramedics.

Bertie Thruster

12th Feb 2008, 11:13

Flaxton; you have done a sterling effort on this thread to explain the detailed process that the AOC holder is going through for the trustees in this matter.

Please don't rise to Crabs latest bait!

tecpilot

12th Feb 2008, 12:44

Could this be a nightmare for the proven SAR boys? ;)

A german civil AA operator (German Automotive Club) winches down a medic to a SAR ship :} Not an alldays job, but it fits so wonderful to this thread! Together we are strong!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/tecpi/news_0506_adac1.jpg

Mind you, a winch-equipped heli might've helped with this job not a million miles from Henstridge a couple of years ago...

Yes Thud_and_Blunder,

this fu...ng paragliders are regularly customers :ugh: To be honest, paraglider rescue is a sucking and dangerous job, but often done in Germany, Austria and Switzerland with helicopter. Nothing for a normal paramedic coming straight from the street into a rescue helicopter. If a operator is interested to do such missions it's very important to train the staff as good as possible.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/tecpi/Hochries20_08_02_92.jpg

Flaxton Flyer

12th Feb 2008, 14:02

Sorry I've been gone so long, just been helping the paramedics try on their new immersion suits. Just something we're looking at....

Bertie - don't worry, I am giving up now. The facts are there for everybody to see, and they can make their own minds up if they are still interested. Crab reduced to personal insults tells its own story.

I just wish I was as important in this procedure as the Lord of The Winch seems to think I am instead of just being one of the drivers waiting for my winching course!

In fact, while I'm waitiing, I'll have to give Thomas a ring and find out about the performance of our aircraft. Incredible to believe that everybody would have gone to all this trouble without actually checking if the aircraft was suitable for purpose! Red faces all round then, typical of those backwoods civvy operators, eh?

Flaxton has left the thread

[email protected]

12th Feb 2008, 14:56

Shall we just see where you are with this in a year's time and see where the red faces are then - there's none as blind as them as don't want to see.

Bertie, you should know better than to encourage this ill-advised activity.

A.Agincourt

12th Feb 2008, 14:59

Or those with tunnel vision:}

Russell Sprout

12th Feb 2008, 16:48

Yep, time to wrap up this thread...... I't been a most enjoyable bun fight as ever!!!!:ugh:

Thud_and_Blunder

12th Feb 2008, 17:04

Well, as it's reached the stage where Crab will take the carefully-selected (by Crab) word of a (non-902) mainly-police ex(sadly)- flier over that of a current 902 Air Amb operator - as backed by an ex-senior-Yellow Hatter - then yes Russell, I think it's reached its natural conclusion. Taking nowt away from TC and his considerable experience, but he rightly hedged his bets about the weight of other units' Air Ambulances.

FF - I've been chatting to your soon-to-arrive ex N Devon pilot, told him how much I enjoyed my all-too-few shifts in your part of the world. Long may you enjoy working with your excellent crews and the lightest 902 in PAS' fleet!

[email protected]

12th Feb 2008, 17:13

Well maybe I am the lone voice in the wilderness and if I resort to personal insults it is as a result of frustration at trying to save people from themselves.

I do however know a thing or two about winching and it's hazards and if you think that sending a crew out to carry out winching operations when NONE of them have ANY experience other than a basic winching course (whether accredited by the CAA or not) is risky at best and downright foolhardy at worst.

If Bertie's outfit were using his experience to set something up like this I would at least have confidence that there was a mature, experienced operator ready to call a halt if it got silly but FF's outfit only seem to have him and it is the blind led by the partially sighted.

After 25 years plus of flying I have seen plenty of young pilots come up with great ideas, ignore the wisdom of the old and bold and then get bitten on the arse.....let's hope it doesn't happen to YAA.

MINself

12th Feb 2008, 17:49

...Let's hope it doesn't happen to YAA.

All the counter arguments you make for AA's not needing/using winches in the UK makes that statement sound awfully insincere :suspect: and maybe the unit in question don't need saving from themselves by you. Just an opinion of course.

Lokon

12th Feb 2008, 19:54

I have heard the Police at the other end of the runway are training for under slung bucket training in time for the next floods......good luck to you both.

What Limits

13th Feb 2008, 03:22

Crab

When I was Chief Pilot of a Police Helicopter Unit in England, I had sight of a document from MOD that said in summary:

Prepare for the day that no MOD assets are available for Military Aid to the Civil Power or Community.

That is why the far-sighted ES Aviation units are considering all possible options, including Night EMS Winching on NVG.

I take particular offence at your comment about enthusiastic amateurs. Having worked with all three Armed Forces and all three Emergency Services, I can assure you that the Fire, Police and Ambulance services can be far more capable and professional than you will ever be. Lets face it, you haven't moved on since the 1940's when the first downed airman was plucked from the sea with a winch equipped helicopter.

BTW, in your illustrious 25 year career in Military SAR (is that all you have done?) how many downed military aircrew have you rescued?

skyepup

13th Feb 2008, 05:39

whatlimits wrote "Having worked with all three Armed Forces and all three Emergency Services"

Taking nothing from what you say but how very ironic.

There are 7 emergency services and one of those.....the coastguard, yes a civi services, are the only other bunch of SAR folk in the UK who have those jolly big helicopters that HAVE winching capability.

Needless to say they work alongside crab (quite succesfully I feel) therefore for those who are making out he has issues with "civis"......I`m afraid I disagree.........:=

Unless told otherwise of course:rolleyes:

[email protected]

13th Feb 2008, 08:46

What Limits - if there is no MOD involvement then it will be civSAR doing the same job (see various SARH threads) .

However, what you suggest about providing the capability for the police and what YAA propose to do are miles apart.

The well meaning amateurs refers to FF who is going into this with no experience and what seems like little advice.

Minself - you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, but your interpretation of my motives is entirely incorrect.

Clever Richard

13th Feb 2008, 12:36

Crab seems to be getting a lot of stick for giving some sensible advice. What appears to irk his critics the most is the fact he is only basing his advice on many years of experience doing what others currently aspire to, how dare he!

If you don't like advice from the military, ask the civvy experts in the SAR field (ie the boys and girls operating on behalf of the MCA) and I am sure you will get the same message.

Thomas coupling

14th Feb 2008, 21:00

I have had the pleasure of meeting Crab@SAA and I have to say his flying experience and respect by fellow aviators is second to none. He falls down, as many of us do when communicating the message electronically.
Believe me he is very passionate about SAR and knows the trade inside out.
He like many military guys feels threatened by what amounts to a massive upheaval in the industry by a government who really haven't thought this out carefully.
It is policy, it will happen and civilians will dominate the situation. It is the cheaper option and that is all the government care about.

What I would say, especially from a position where I am directly involved in SAR and SAR training, is that it IS a very intensive profession requiring training to the 'nth' degree. Civilians can and will do it, no doubt but ONLY with the correct level of training. There is a wealth of difference between winching a climber off the side of a hill in moderate weather conditions and winching a person off a moving deck in 50+ knots of wind out to sea by 50+ miles.
I would like to see the figures for a 902 in winch mode where the CAT A perf for that machine suggests it can winch train with a pilot and two onboard together with a casualty on the end of the winch with sufficient fuel and still be able to maintain SSE in the hover. And I dont mean 15 mins endurance either.
Either we are talking about comprehensive SAR cover here (albeit inland and coastal) where the 902 can respond in most weather conditions with sufficient fuel to transfer (only the one) patient to a hospital anywhere in its operating region, or we are talking a light twin cab doing some light local work on nice days.
At the end of the day there will always be the need for the heavy guys fully tooled up to do ANY SAR anywhere. And the AA, as much as I adore them, can't and won't.

griffothefog

15th Feb 2008, 03:41

When I worked on AA ops (7 years) we had some of the most challenging terrain in the UK to deal with, and probably managed 90% of extractions without the need for a winch. On the few occasions we could not get the paramedic close enough for effective treatment ( let's not get confused, the primary reason for AA ops is to get medical care to the patient ) we had no hesitation in calling in the guy's from 771. Yep it pricked the pride to sea the big boy's fly off into the distance with "our patient" but at the end of the day the level of skill required to acheive what they provide day in day out is beyond the reasonable budget and requirement of any AA unit. What do the land crews do if they cannot get near a patient on a remote beach? They call the AA unit, NO PRIDE INVOLVED, just common sense. If we could not reach a stranded/fallen cliff walker without putting everyone in danger, we called 771 NO PRIDE INVOLVED.
Maybe our county is unique, but the MOD have had a knack of putting these units in areas where they have been most needed in the past and they have usually got it right. Has something changed since I left the UK?:rolleyes:

Clever Richard

15th Feb 2008, 08:30

:D

Thomas Coupling and griffothefog,

Thank you for your posts which are both informed and informative. You have both hit the nail on the head. Crab is passionate and for all the right reasons, if the government can sit back and let others do their work for them for free (ie charity funded AA), they will.

It is the attempt to do what is potentially difficult and extremely dangerous on what will, by necessity of the funding method, be a shoestring that worries many people.

[email protected]

15th Feb 2008, 11:39

TC - :ok:

....Now how much do I owe you?:{

clearances

17th Feb 2008, 21:14

Hi,

I've read this thread with interest, it's inspiring to read from people who, 1 have a vast knowledge of a topic that I too care about, and 2 are able to keep things mostly professional, without taking personal digs at one another:D

whoateallthepies

18th Feb 2008, 07:11

Crab
You really are the most pompous, arrogant, high and mighty twit on this thread. You are happy to sling names around so take some of your own.
Itis typical of the blinkered "There's nobody else like us" mentality of the custard-coloured arm of the RAF. And I know, because I've been there. Once you step outside that cloistered environment you realise that lots of other people fly helicopters and to high professional standards on a par with you.

To accuse Flaxton, or any member of YAA of being "amateur" is a gross insult. He proposes to do some day winching over land. Look, me Old, all he has to do is hover the helicopter and follow some "Up, down, left, right, back, forward" directions, something which any professional pilot can do. The only "black art" in winching is hovering over water or moving decks. That is not what he proposes to do, as he has said. And paramedics can be trained for the winch op job, no trouble. My God, even the RN get by with their strange "easy, easy" patter.

By the way, how well does your Sea King hover on one engine at training winching weights? So Civvies operate to a higher safety standard regarding OEI when training? Funny old thing!

Flaxton answered all of your bombastic questions eloquently. It's just a shame that you can't accept that any other outfit than yours should be allowed to winch.
Safe Flying http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

Clever Richard

18th Feb 2008, 07:19

Clearances,

Looks like you spoke too soon. Somebody does need to calm down, don't they.

Pies, please read Crab's posts again. He is not anti-AA but has the experience that produces a healthy respect for the potential pitfalls involved in winching. He just wants those who take it on to put the training in place for it to be a success.

whoateallthepies

18th Feb 2008, 07:43

Clever Dick
I'm as calm as you like. Always am.
I know he's not anti-AA but I also know he is maligning Flaxton and the Paramedics on YAA without any first-hand knowledge of their operation. He needed to have his pomposity pricked and I hope that has happened, though I doubt it, from reading his previous threads! He will continue on his "Holier than thou" way because he knows only a very narrow, blinkered view of the helicopter world.

Do you seriously think YAA would consider winching without putting the proper training in place?

I have re-read his posts and they are still arrogant! http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[email protected]

18th Feb 2008, 13:47

Whoate - you are right that day winching over flat terrain is easy peasy and anyone can do it but that is not what FF is proposing. If the ground were suitable, they would land on to deploy the paramedic as they do now so that means the area must, by definition, be inhospitable.

Many of the likely winching scenarios may be straightforward (a casualty on a steep slope for example) but as the terrain gets more difficult (steeper cliffs, trees, wires etc) and longer lengths of cable are required the game gets harder and an inexperienced crew (eg straight off a winching course where they have been taught basic patter and how to use the winch smoothly) may well get sucked into winching when it is beyond their capabilities.

The one element FF doesn't have in his empire is experience which is why I am concerned that it might go horribly wrong. A CAA approved winching course doesn't give you the experience to deal with operations just as a PPL doesn't give you the ability to deal with IIMC.

I have persisted with this thread because I do have a little insider knowledge of FF's operation but I must protect my sources.

Finally - if you think I am arrogant then you don't know me and if you think I have a narrow, blinkered view of the helicopter world based on limited experience then you really don't know me at all:)

PS, as you know the Sea King often isn't SSE in the hover when winching but we can take it at risk because we are in the military, the civilians can't because of legislation - one of the reasons we get so much more training done because we don't have to wait for the right wind/weather to practise.

Thud_and_Blunder

18th Feb 2008, 14:56

Been away a few days and just caught up. Good to see TC's post - if I read it correctly, he points out that there will always be a need for "heavy", fully capable SAR aircraft and that anything else will be "light and local". Spot on; that's exactly what is being looked-at by YAA.

"Can't and won't" do the stuff SAR do so well; I don't believe anyone in the industry or outside wishes AA to get themselves involved with the offshore malarkey. Onshore, I fully agree that with the current regs there is no possibility of any civvy light twin carrying out Performance Class 1 winch training. Whether that is appropriate in the light of other users'/countries experiences (see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3918771&postcount=3930) is for the legislators and any interested parties to hammer out. I hope that any decision that emerges is based purely upon achieving the right mix of aviation risk vs the best outcome for patients and not upon old practices, inappropriate ambitions or wishful thinking. I bear in mind as I write this that there are already exemptions (down to Performance Class 3 if required) for HEMS, so it is not inconceivable that a case can be made for similar performance exemptions for use of winches.

Whoate, it can be interesting trying to exchange views with Crab. You and I may well have well over 25 years in more than one field of expertise; we have to remember that some of the folk who look in here from time to time are the ones that taught us over 30 years ago. P'raps if he (Crab) allowed that other contributors have empirical evidence that directly contradicts his perceptions (I refer once again to the "doctors on HEMS aircraft" theme he so strongly opposes) - maybe even showed a touch of humility :hmm: every now and then - his doubtless-earnest views would be received a bit more coolly. Anyway, get back on convoy where you can count the blats/ enjoy the views.

Crab, I too have insider knowledge of the YAA op and can think of more than one instance where it would have been useful to have a hoist. In this job not a million miles from Sheffield for example:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa61/Rough_and_Toothless/_DCC1339.jpg

...where we were able to find an LS thanks to the small footprint of the 902, but then had to subject the crew to a risky trek over the ridge with all the kit. The casualty then had to await a land team for extraction; OK in this case as the injury was (I believe) just lower limb, but factor-in head injuries, exposure or other medical priorities and the extra time needed could've caused serious deterioration in his condition and potential outcome. OK, there's a risk associated with winching - (aviation) risk management vs patient outcome is what HEMS is all about.

As has already been said, if you think that a UK HEMS operator would let loose an under-trained crew under the circumstances you describe and expect them to cope then you have a terribly inaccurate picture of what we (including ex-mil SAR instructors and examiners) do.

JimL

18th Feb 2008, 16:05

Thud_and_Blunder,

I bear in mind as I write this that there are already exemptions (down to Performance Class 3 if required) for HEMS, so it is not inconceivable that a case can be made for similar performance exemptions for use of winches.As I said in an earlier post, that is already the case.

The HEC Class D (not Cat A - there is no such thing) for training is a UK policy thing - it is not required by JARs. Other States in Europe do not specify this for training; it could be classified at HEC Class B (provided all members of the of the training crew are company employees) which does not require the same performance criteria.

What does come as a surprise is the statement that none of these small twins can meet the HEC Class D performance requirement; I'm sure they can as all of them have been used for Marine Pilot transfer - for which the requirement applies.

Jim

Vie sans frontieres

18th Feb 2008, 16:06

Credit to you all (well most of you)
Hi,

I've read this thread with interest, it's inspiring to read from people who, 1 have a vast knowledge of a topic that I too care about, and 2 are able to keep things mostly professional, without taking personal digs at one another:D

followed immediately by

Crab
You really are the most pompous, arrogant, high and mighty twit on this thread.

Comic timing of the highest order. Ronnie Barker couldn't have delivered it better.

By the way. Crab's right. And if a winch had been attached to the aircraft in the picture shown, I certainly don't think the winching would've fallen into the 'straightforward' category that Flaxton et al are suggesting that YAA would restrict their winching to. All manner of things could go wrong down that slope (if it's at all like the one on the other side of the valley).

Thud_and_Blunder

18th Feb 2008, 16:56

By the way. Crab's right.

Ah well, that's it - discussion's over in the face of such irrefutable logic! :)

I certainly don't think the winching would've fallen into the 'straightforward' category that Flaxton et al are suggesting that YAA would restrict their winching to. All manner of things could go wrong down that slope (if it's at all like the one on the other side of the valley).

Again, I defer to your expert knowledge. Silly me, as the person at the controls of the aircraft you see in the picture who'd just done the recce's and dropped off the crew, to think that I should know enough about winching to think it might've helped here. Plain to see that the situation can be analysed much more effectively from one terrestrial perspective - fancy me not realising that sooner, eh? I shall go and beat myself over the head with my logbooks 'til I see sense. Ooops, nearly forgot - :eek:

[email protected]

18th Feb 2008, 17:26

Thud - the fact that the only example you use to justify the need for a winch did not in fact require one to get the job done and would not have met the need to winch given the casualty's condition speaks volumes for the weakness of the argument put forward to justify AA winching in the first place.

It's full of 'could haves' and 'what ifs' and is hardly an operational justification for the extra cost and risk involved - merely an aspiration.

Who exactly is going to stop poor decision making regarding winching? FF with his extensive experience (is he the senior pilot at YAA?) Once the course has been passed, the CAA will go away happy and there will be no-one to supervise the winching.

I love the accusation of arrogance since all I have done is try to highlight some potential pitfalls of putting inexperienced crews in difficult positions - is it not more arrogant that FF and others see absolutely no merit in any of my suggestions or advice? You decide. BTW are you flying with A&E consultants on every AA yet?

Vie sans frontieres

18th Feb 2008, 17:35

Thud

Well you yourself described it as a "risky trek over the ridge", which suggests that there would've been all sorts of complexities awaiting your paramedics if they'd deployed by winch. You're falling into the common PPRuNe trap of only viewing it from the pilot's perspective. You'll learn...the hard way.

Thud_and_Blunder

18th Feb 2008, 20:31

This is fun.

that the only example you use to justify the need for a winchCrab, extrapolating an opponent's argument ad infinitum ad nauseam might've been amusing in Year 4 but hardly cuts the mustard here. Making out that the one job for which I have provided a picture is the entire case for AA winching is a bit of a desperate shot.

not have met the need to winch given the casualty's condition Ah, if only we knew before launch what the job was going to entail - how simple life would be, eh? Sadly we mere mortals are not prescient and therefore don't know exactly which piece of kit is going to be needed until we arrive on scene. Using your line of argument (careful, Thud, don't extrapolate...) we'd have to assume that every job in Yorkshire required the full SAR capabilities of the Leccy crew and we might as well hand the AA money back to the public and go home.

Who exactly is going to stop poor decision making regarding winching and there will be no-one to supervise the winching. You seem here to indicate that you believe that the world outside the military has no knowledge of, or use for, standardisation, continuous training and periodic mandatory assessment of ability. Is that a fair assessment of your comments? If so, you may well be surprised to find that the reality is somewhat different. Back in post #96 you said that you'd be happy if Bertie's organisation was doing the study and would run the show. Well guess what - they're all part of the same operation, and all assessed to the same standard.

is it not more arrogant that FF and others see absolutely no merit in any of my suggestions or advice? Best idea here is go back to FF's post #83 and re-read from where he says "So let’s look at this “stinky” plan". See once again how he explains slowly and clearly that an appropriately qualified and experienced external contractor is putting together a staged, continuously monitored and assessed programme which will meet or surpass all of your requirements. Then ignore it all anyway and accuse him of arrogance (or better yet, surprise us and actually acknowledge what was there in front of you all along).

Vie, "risky trek over the edge" down 15-20 feet (from memory) to a ledge where you could've held Chivenor's OM Summer Ball in the days when they used to have them (note to self - stop exaggerating). You decide: would a winch allow a much safer delivery of paramedic and kit to patient than having them struggle down the slope? I have an opinion and I bet you can guess what it is. See that building to the right of the rotor head? That was the nearest road access - the team that ended up carrying the patient had to lug him all that way, 'cos the aircraft had to go home as pumpkin time would've been and gone by the time they'd reached the casualty and brought him somewhere the aircraft could've picked him up. OK in this case - not good if his condition was significantly different, eh?

You are quite right about seeing it from a pilot's perspective; however, if in all my time (doing anything from Sea-State 5 CT roping-then-winching with a Chinook through situation winching a third of the way up a wadi in a single-engine Huey through to SAR examining in Borneo... blah, blah swing-lantern-pull-up-sandbag) I had never learned to see things the way my winch-op, winch-man or even diver(!) saw them then I reckon you'd probably have a point. As it is, you don't - in my opinion - although I agree that I'll learn. The day I stop learning is the day I stop flying. Oh, and do I get a prize for the unwieldiest "sentence" on PPRuNe to date with that first one in this paragraph?

To summarise:

An AA unit is undertaking a project to further their ability to improve patient outcomes by expanding the operational capability of their crews and aircraft. People in a near-equivalent military operation and elsewhere have expressed concern; their concerns have been addressed in detail both by the unit directly involved and by other interested parties. Those expressing concern are still not convinced, and are therefore right. I thengyew. :hmm:

Thud_and_Blunder

18th Feb 2008, 20:40

Crab, sorry to have missed this bit:
BTW are you flying with A&E consultants on every AA yet?
No, not yet - and not until it becomes appropriate. Mind you, had an interesting job in the Midlands last week where my 2 paramedics were first on scene but we had to wait for the TWO docs who came in the next aircraft before the patient's outcome started to significantly improve. No pricked pride etc, just the right people in the right place to get the job done. Get the right selection process, the right clinical governance and the right funding and you really have nothing to fear, honest!

XV666

18th Feb 2008, 20:56

T & B,

:ok:

Crab,

Maybe you could stand back and look at why there seem to be so many who see your posts as "arrogant" ?

Have you thought how insulting you can be (and often are), when you strongly imply that a professional organisation would not continue with their standards and training, once approved by the CAA? How would you take such an accusation aimed at your SAR Op? You'd be understandably aggrieved/angry/p'd off if someone suggested that the RAF couldn't be trusted to maintain their standards, once approved: no?

And it has been pointed out already, you have an advantage of not requiring SSE at all times, yet have a fair pop at those who are constrained by civil regs to operate HEC Class D for training. See the reason why you come across to many of us as just a tad arrogant, or out of touch with the civ world?

clearances

18th Feb 2008, 23:15

Vie,

Comical timing alright... I'm not sure why things digress to such a point? This stuff we call winching is not sacred and with quality training you would be surprised who can operate a hoist safely.

Over water at night, pitching and heaving deck... completely different!

Vie sans frontieres

19th Feb 2008, 06:14

Clearances

The point that keeps being made to the AA fraternity (and keeps going in one ear and out of the other) is that winching can be be piece of pi$$ at times but having a winch bolted to the side of the aircraft will inevitably, one day, lead to a crew biting off more than they can chew. Pressure may be self-induced or externally applied and the subsequent decision to just, "give it a go", could lead to all sorts of difficulties for an inexperienced crew - especially crewmen.

The AA pilots list their career achievements with a great deal of self-satisfaction (you can always tell when someone's losing an argument when they start telling you their CV) but they're not the important ones. The winch-op is the critical co-ordinating middle-man and the winchman has to efficiently co-ordinate an often confused situation and without either having sufficient experience things can go wrong...quickly. By their own admission they won't have experience of complex winching scenarios because they tell us that they want to keep things simple but one day they'll feel duty bound to push it that little bit further. If they get away with it, they'll try similar again, so will their peers and before you know it they'll be plucking paragliders out of trees.

[email protected]

19th Feb 2008, 07:46

Vie - far more eloquently put than I have managed but they still won't listen because they don't want to hear.

Heli - who is the service provider, what does the course actually entail, how many hours will they fly, who will ensure maintenance of standards once the course is complete, will the service provider monitor the first few winching jobs? I would like to see the answer to some of these questions before I am convinced this is being approached in a professional way. FF hasn't actually provided any facts, just advertised future capability and training issues that are GOING to be addressed - all these should have been sorted out before starting on about winching on this thread.

Thud - you gave the crappy example of a non-winching job to try and justify the YAA position on winching so don't be surprised when it gets torn to pieces.

FFs outfit and Berties are not the same, primarily because Bertie does have lots of winching experience and would be able to offer the appropriate levels of supervision which FF cannot match.

Please describe how the supervision and maintenance of standards will be accomplished within YAA other than an annual check ride. I keep having to come back to the point that Vie and myself reiterate - with a completely inexperienced crew you run a grave risk of trying too hard to get the job done. That has been the mainstay of my argument from the word go on this topic - all other imagined slights are exactly that - imagined.

Almost forgot - so you are not flying with docs on board every AA, despite you telling me how important it was......In fact you keep the docs in the hospital and only use them when required - hmmm I seem to remember that was what I suggested....but I was probably wrong then because I don't fly AA:)

whoateallthepies

19th Feb 2008, 09:46

Thud- far more eloquently put than I have managed but they still won't listen because they don't want to hear.

I admire your reasoned, careful replies to the strident minority. Of course, it is now obvious that you have lost your argument because you started telling us about your perfect background to take up that argument! Strikes me that Vie must be the complete pilot the way he feels free to criticise all others.

Crab and Vie
Once again, as Thud said, re-read Flaxton's post. It is all explained in careful detail and I'm not surprised he has left the post rather than waste his time talking to those who can't even be bothered to read and digest his posts.

Whereas I have lots of time! http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[email protected]

19th Feb 2008, 12:01

whoate - I understand the pressure that the unit manager will have been putting on FF and PAS to provide this capability, somehow I doubt that the impetus actually came from either the trustees or the paramedics themselves.

I also acknowledge that things are done differently outside the military and that keen and ambitious people try many things to make a name for themselves. When your choice is to do as you are told or lose your job, it maybe easier to accede to a course of action you don't neccessarily agree with rather than rock the boat.

However a fundamental question remains - why, when at the moment the paramedics only get 2 weeks of training before they are let loose in the helicopter and only work 2 weeks a month on it (reduced sometimes to 1 week in 4 because of time off etc), will they suddenly accept other training that takes them away from their core job, the extra personal risk and responsibility that comes with winching and continued assessment in order to maintain the skill levels required.

Don't get me wrong, the paramedics are very skilled in their own field but how many of them have actually volunteered for this extra task and possess the requisite aviation skills for the job?

The 902 may have the performance, just, to winch SSE for training but will inevitably not be SSE for operational winching, can that extra risk be justified? It will be the paramedics that get hurt, not the pilot or the unit manager or the trustees.

Finally, if this does go ahead as planned, no-one - especially FF - has shown any figures or weight of evidence (even anecdotally) to support the need for winches in the first place.

[email protected]

19th Feb 2008, 15:01

Just one more thing on a more helpful note - why not try recruiting some SAR winchmen/radops, you probably only need 2 or 3 and there are plenty who are fed up of the way the military is being shredded by the govt.

You would then have highly trained winch ops who just happen to be NHS paramedic qualified (in the case of the winchmen). Then suddenly you have all the required skill sets and lots of experience in one fell swoop. The only downside is cost - you won't be able to pay them the same £18-25K the paramedics get - you would have to start at £40K and work upwards - but as the AA fraternity never tire of pointing out, they can spend the donated money as they wish:)

Good luck!

Russell Sprout

19th Feb 2008, 16:24

Crab,

You fail to see that both Bertie and Flaxton come from the same pool of PAS pilots, employed like the rest for their wealth of experience in different fields of aviation. There are also a lot of ex SAR trained drivers that operate that very machine and am sure from my previous experience of flying HEMS in that part of the world would gladly welcome a winch ability.

In the past year i can think of at least a dozen incidents where we have turned up on scene and realized at an early stage that a winch equipped aircraft would be needed and requested SAR and gladly received their help. The only down side is that on average it takes them between 1- 1 1/2 hours to pitch up on scene... (Time that some patients don’t have).

Now ask yourself, how as an AA would you progress with an operating area that justifies it, and an aircraft, pilots and crews that are also capable?

uuummm..... FIT A WINCH MAYBE??

handysnaks

19th Feb 2008, 16:40

but having a winch bolted to the side of the aircraft will inevitably, one day, lead to a crew biting off more than they can chew.

The same reasoned line of argument that stopped the issue of parachutes to pilots in the RFC.:p

Vie sans frontieres

19th Feb 2008, 16:50

There are also a lot of ex SAR trained drivers that operate that very machine

How many more times? IT'S NOT ABOUT PILOTS!!!

medihell

19th Feb 2008, 17:14

(quote) You would then have highly trained winch ops who just happen to be NHS paramedic qualified (in the case of the winchmen).

Crab,
for someone who appears to be all things to all men you need to check the source of your information, last time i looked not all winchmen were trained to nhs paramedic standards, just a small point but one i think you should be furnished with.:=

whoateallthepies

19th Feb 2008, 17:19

Crab
I understand the pressure that the unit manager will have been putting on FF and PAS to provide this capability, somehow I doubt that the impetus actually came from either the trustees or the paramedics themselves.

Where is your evidence for this assumption? You demand evidence of training/assessment programs and evidence of aircraft weights , yet you feel free to bandy around "doubts" without any evidence of your own?
Double standards at work here? http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

Russell Sprout

19th Feb 2008, 17:20

Well what’s Crabs beef with Flaxton then?

At the moment when the scene is unsuitable to land the only way an Air Ambulance can get help to a patient is to hover deplane which puts the aircraft in an unsafe flight profile, presents the whole crew with an unnecessary risk and forces the deplaning paramedic to risk life and limb carting heavy medical equipment out of the aircraft and onto the ground........ Now do the sums.....

Add a winch and you substantially lower the risk that is already in place...maybe that’s the reason why the dam thing was invented and why so many emergency helicopters are fitted with them..... Yep breaking news and a first for UK Air Ambulances but get a life..... I doubt that the RAF SAR fleet is at risk from the YAA!!!

Russell,

p.s Maybe they should use mirrors if the pilots aren't the issue....

[email protected]

19th Feb 2008, 17:25

Russell - I cannot imagine why you think I don't know that Bertie and FF are both employed by PAS - it's hardly a secret. My point was and is that Bertie knows what winching is all about and can provide guidance and supervision - FF doesn't and can't. Post Bertie to YAA and it would be a lot safer to add the winches.

As an AA I would stick to doing what you do extremely well and successfully -putting non-aircrew in aircrew posts is asking for trouble.

I presume if PAS get the YAA running with winches then all the remaining AA will follow suit, or is it just YAA that want this capability?

Medihell, ALL RAF winchmen are either NHS paramedic qualified or working towards it - I believe this to be true for the RN and is the intention of the MCA. This is why the College of SAR Medicine (CoSARM) was set up. Even those who are basic trained operate to the same protocols as the NHS and are technician equivalent until the extended IEC course is completed.

whoateallthepies

19th Feb 2008, 17:26

just happen to be NHS paramedic qualified (in the case of the winchmen).

Ah yes, that always raised a laugh with the real NHS paramedics on the Air Ambulance.

Winch ops/Winch Persons: Brave, highly skilled people but they don't get to see and deal with serious trauma injuries to the same extent as the AA paramedics. http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[email protected]

19th Feb 2008, 17:28

Russell - so winching without SSE capability isn't putting the aircraft and crew in an unsafe flight profile then??????And a longer exposure time!!! You don't seem to understand winching either:)

Who ate - no guesswork, just inside information.

PS you clearly know little of winchmen training or are you just relying on what you used to know?

whoateallthepies

19th Feb 2008, 17:32

winching without SSE capability isn't putting the aircraft and crew in an unsafe flight profile then??????

You lot do it all the time. Another double standard? http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

Russell Sprout

19th Feb 2008, 17:54

Crab,

I'd much prefer to be 50-100' above a hill side with a single engine failure than 2', who knows we might have to adopt the same fly away procedure that you use, as for the cobblers with non aircrew in aircrew jobs.... The military quite happily turned me from a 17 year old spotty erck bricklayer into a fully trained safe, professional Day/ night IFR/ VFR winch, heli-absailing, fast roping experienced pilot with an ego that allows me to realize that even a ****wit under skilled paramedic can quite easily be trained to wind in and out a length of rope.

P.s I know of, both you and Flaxton and think you are both sterling gents, my views are not personal but mearly reflect the banter that Prune threads seem to encourage.:ok:

jackjack08

19th Feb 2008, 18:19

Quote Crab

somehow I doubt that the impetus actually came from either the trustees or the paramedics themselves.

Wrong !

It was the medics who brought the idea to the table in the first place, due to response times of other agencies been poor in relation to time critical patients ! Russel :D

It seems they went away, and after lengthy research of their own requests for patients to be winched, they then asked " How & Where would we able to winch, so stopping this uncertain delay in care"

Further meetings and discussion with interested parties took place and a visit to a european operator well versed in winching with light twins helped their decision to put a case together to submit to Gatwick HQ.

Bingo !!!!! Approval

We shouldn't stop people wanting to go forward and better their unit's capability of delivery to the customer/patient , we should applaude it. :ok:

Vie sans frontieres

19th Feb 2008, 18:27

So the patient will be winched then. Mission creep?

jackjack08

19th Feb 2008, 18:33

If you read flaxtons reply he gives in detail how the Big house at gatwick want it delivering initially -no point running before you can walk - Paramedic down Paramedic up.
The idea was merely started like this

3D CAM

19th Feb 2008, 18:34

Who ate

Winch ops/Winch Persons: Brave, highly skilled people but they don't get to see and deal with serious trauma injuries to the same extent as the AA paramedics.

Bloody hell, thats a bit of a broad statement! A car over a 100ft. cliff with four elderly ladies on board is not elastoplast and bandages fixable you know! Not as often as your guys see trauma granted, but still real!!
In situations like that, and major traffic incidents, don't both of your medics attend? How do you propose to do that if one of them is a winch op? He is the one who matters in all this! Not the stick stirrer in the front!
It is the training and continuation training of these individuals that I think Crab is trying to emphasise! Not the ability of all AA pilots to winch!

Russell Sprout

19th Feb 2008, 18:50

This all seems to be going round in circles and turning into yet another Prune pissing contest, I think all the pertinent points have been covered and i for one am withdrawing now because it is turning into a 'I'm better than you' sketch, and i don't want to be in a position that casts a shadow on the great work that both SAR and AA's do.:ouch:
I’m all for a winch, others aren’t……See ya

Bertie Thruster

19th Feb 2008, 19:10

A few years ago on a "Longsar"* exercise to the Swiss Air Force, I was privileged to have the opportunity to act as a 'survivor' during some mountain rescue training.

It all went very well (though after the winching exercise by Alouette, I joined 3 of my colleagues and 2 of our hosts in a Puma to be dropped off, un-briefed, up on a mountain ledge at 13,000ft. The Puma disappeared. Our hosts produced a bottle of champagne and 5 glasses. We toasted the SAF and the RAF. With the alcohol joining the adrenaline coursing through my body, together with the insidious effects of hypoxia and cold (no survival clothing!) , never was I so pleased to see that Puma return!)

The winchmen and winchops were aircraft engineers, tasked as required off the shop floor. The winch 'patter' was interesting; it was a made up mixture of 'baby talk' so it could be easily understood by any mixture of French, German or Italian speaking scratch rescue crews.

They had achieved many rescues in this way, in true mountainous terrain of the highest order! All without direct stretcher or casualty entry which could involve very airy space walks and stretcher carries, to which I can attest!

The SAF alouettes were not NVG cabs and night rescue was undertaken by REGA, a civilian organisation (we also visited), with their many (NVG equipped) bases covering any point in Switzerland within 15 minutes.

Many ways to skin that onshore cat!

*Longsar----an interesting exercise ( 'binned long ago, I expect, in these days of cut backs!) involving flying a UK SAR machine a fair way (for a helicopter) in order to practise navigation and flight planning and meet other rescue agencies. This one was from Leuchars, Scotland to Alpnach, Switzerland.

Vie sans frontieres

19th Feb 2008, 19:16

That's the third time Russell Sprout has left this thread (see his posts on 11th & 12th Feb). Do you think he means it this time? Using the age old get out clause of labelling the thread a pissing contest seems like a recognition of a lost argument to me.

When Crab and 3D Cam start to agree, people sit up and take notice!:O

Russell Sprout

19th Feb 2008, 19:26

Just wanted the last word:ok: but all this baiting is very addictive!!!!

Just to add fuel to the fire.... One of the winchmen on my CSRO's course was an ex VC10 trolley dolly load master.... talk about non aircrew doing aircrew work, think i'd prefer having a qualified paramedic with 5 years aviation experience tugging my rope..... especially one of Berties that are nearly ready to go solo.....

Vie sans frontieres

19th Feb 2008, 19:30

That'll be 4 then.

[email protected]

19th Feb 2008, 19:40

Maybe this flouncing out and leaving the thread when you're losing is an AA thing..............:)

Russell Sprout

19th Feb 2008, 19:51

Right, i'm leaving!!!

Thud_and_Blunder

19th Feb 2008, 20:01

Russell, as the Mental as Anything song said: "If you're leaving me, can I come too?" :ok: :)

Crab, that last sentence about doctors in your "reply" to me was priceless - I'm printing it off now for keeps. As an example of the "All coal is black, some cats are black, so all cats must be made of coal" reasoning method I really don't think we'll see its equal.

What Limits

19th Feb 2008, 23:38

And I refer my learned friends to my post #4

whoateallthepies

20th Feb 2008, 04:28

Crab
You lost this thread many posts ago. But of course you only see it from your viewpoint and will not listen to anyone who varies from that. Fingers in the ears, saying "La la la". Talk about in denial!

3D
Not as often as your guys see trauma granted
Read my post. "To the same extent". So you agree. http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[email protected]

20th Feb 2008, 06:20

whoate - I was never going to 'win' this thread because all the decisions have already been made and YAA seem determined to take on this capability - good luck to them - I will remain sceptical about both the need and the wisdom of this exercise.

Thud - I take that drivel to mean I was right then:)

XV666

20th Feb 2008, 07:46

I wonder what His Crabness would have to say if this was anything but a yellow canary?

:p

http://www.link2content.co.uk/images/Rescue.jpg

oops, silly me: continuation training, of course ;)

[email protected]

20th Feb 2008, 15:51

I'm just trying to work out who it is - it's a Mk3A and post FLIR/MSS modification so it's quite recent.

His hand signals are crap :) and since there is no zapper snapper visible he (as well as the other guy) probably got a good belt of static:)

Sandy Toad

20th Feb 2008, 16:55

Sven Sixtoo

21st Feb 2008, 09:10

How about

Back 2 and right

Sven

John Eacott

21st Feb 2008, 10:00

Crab is obviously right! Leave it to the Service Professionals. Otherwise we'll have 21 year olds with less than 1000 hours winching from single engined helicopters, at night even. Heaven forbid!
Oops! Sounds rather like Portland SAR in early 70's.

21? That old?

The joys of winch training in a Whirlwind 7, with the dulcet Irish tones of CPO Mooney commenting on his feet getting wet: whilst sitting in the doorway :p Then again, 155 hours was a lot for a 19 year old :eek:

1st front line live SAR would have been around 5-600 hours TT, IIRC. Happy days, must stop that lamp from swinging...........

Sandy Toad

21st Feb 2008, 11:37

I'm younger than you John - just - and was ahead of you coursewise - just - but still reckon was 21 by time finished first jungly front line tour and ended up at 771 as Jungly 3!

TorqueOfTheDevil

22nd Feb 2008, 22:27

then had to subject the crew to a risky trek over the ridge with all the kit. The casualty then had to await a land team for extraction

Instead of all this palaver, why did the AA crew in this case not just call for a SAR a/c to resolve this incident?

Of course there will be a delay while it turns up (so call it sooner!), but no more delay than a risky trek over the ridge carrying kit and extraction by a land team. Also would save the casualty the discomfort of a long carry, and save the rescue personnel the risks of trekking over the ridge and carrying the cas out over awkward terrain. And the SAR helo wouldn't have gone home when it got dark!

Team Crab missed a priceless early comment by Russell, perhaps the most untrue statement on this whole long thread:

As for All weather Op's, SAR can not provide anything more than a AA can when the weather sets in apart from operating over the sea where there is nothing to bump into. If anyone can explain how IFR hill side rescues work then please crack on......

Sorry but this is total bolleaux. It would take a while to explain IFR hillside resuces, but it happens frequently. An AA proponent on another recent thread stated that the day wx limits for AAs are 3000m/300', and suggested that surely noone would want to go flying in worse than that - SARBoys train daily in worse weather than that at night, over land and sea! And on a rescue, should the situation demands it, will operate in horrendous weather. This is why Sea Kings often get sent to incidents which an AA has tried and failed to get to due to poor weather. Ho hum...