PA31 in trouble at YSBK this evening

[Ultralights]

what happened with the PA31 in trouble at YSBK this evening? i was listening on the live feed and heard all got down safely. great work form the ATC's in giving everyone options.

[Lasiorhinus]

Ultralights, it wasnt you who called in the media, was it? The last thing the industry needs is uninformed reporters beating up a minor incident with their "plummeting", "seconds from disaster", "doomed plane", and "fearing for their lives" claptrap.

If it wasnt you, I apologise for the insinuation.

[apache]

Saw on the news last night what looked like a MOJAVE, which landed OK, till the nose wheel collapsed.
Looks like the pilot did a good job. Kept it straight on the runway, and had the props stopped when the nose collapsed.

[Bendo]

But who iss goink to pay for ziss?

[Bankstownboy]

Whoever it was who called the media is a bloody bastard, the 7 Chopper kept itself above my house for a while!! :mad:

Nah I'm no NIMBY.

But a chopper to cover an emergency landing after the 6 O'clock news has already been on? Hmm, 7 must have been having a slow news day....

[Pinky the pilot]

especially feathering the props on landing which saved alot of potential damage to the engines.


Hmm, interesting. Years ago now when I did my M/E endorsement (in a Seneca 1:eek:) I was told that given the circumstances which started this thread that you should not feather the props but just 'unload' the engines by cutting the mixture, ie to idle cutoff.

The reasoning was that a feathered prop won't bend all that easily and may transfer the stress of contact with the ground to the engine mounts. It was better to just cut the mixture and allow the prop tips to bend backwards.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"especially feathering the props on landing which saved alot of potential damage to the engines"
Were the props feathered, or just stopped?

As indicated above, feathering the props in these circumstances is now considered to be contra-indicated.

There was an incident in Fiji about 20 years ago where the pilot of an Aztec had a gear malfunction and was faced with a wheels-up landing. He tried to feather the props and position them horizontally (two blade props) prior to touchdown. He didn't manage to get them into a horizontal position - on belly landing the props dug into the runway and flipped the aeroplane onto its back - crushing the cabin and killing the pilot.

Dr :8

[JetA_OK]

Dieter isn't having much fun lately - a couple of broken Metros and now a Sheeeeftan.

[wessex19]

gees, they might have to put the price up for doing ICUS on T**L bankruns :=

[Peter Fanelli]

The pilot did a great job - especially feathering the props on landing which saved alot of potential damage to the engines.
WRONG!

As others have said, NEVER NEVER NEVER feather the props!

Another incident I remember hearing about years ago in England, an Aztec with a nosewheel problem landed from a glide after the pilot feathered the props on short final. One of the props dug in and flipped the aircraft onto it's back, killing all five occupants.

Think about it, a non feathered propellor will just bend, but if you turn that blade 90 degrees or so and it happens to find something to catch on(such as the gouge in the runway left by the last guy who feathered his props for a gear problem) it won't bend, it will either tear the engine out of the airframe (duchess at PF some years back) or it can throw the aircraft onto it's back.

Never Feather!

[mustafagander]

To continue the thread drift -
Would not the rather large distraction and general buggering about to feather and position the props optimally tend to overload any mortal pilot? Think about it, you're highly stressed already and now you want to judge just when to irrevocably shut off all your power, then mess with the props, all the while operating an aircraft with flight characteristics that you've never experienced before, and this at a time of enormous stress.
Not for me! My pax and I are worth much more than a couple of props and engine tear downs.

[Duff Shark]

Peter ,

you are correct i was told never to feather unless you have to, the risk of rollover due to props not bending is too great. Also an engineer told me that even if the props bend at low speed ie idle they can usually be rolled back to straight providing they do not exceed a certain angle reletively easily.... dont know how true that is tho but he is licenced and did it ...

DS

[Ultralights]

no i didn't call the media. i was just listening to the ATC feed via itunes while surfing the net. just listened to it all unfold.

[StickWithTheTruth]

It was Darren Masters that called the media.
http://ultralights.shorturl.com/ (http://ultralights.shorturl.com/)

Photos taken by Bob Bell
http://www.airsearailroad.com (http://www.airsearailroad.com/)

http://www.recreationalflying.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=7167 (registration required)



http://users.netconnect.com.au/~njah1/xgw.jpg

[Lasiorhinus]

My apologies, ultralights. I jumped to conclusions.

Now, this Darren Masters fellow... :=:=:*

[Jabawocky]

SWTT
you are a cheeky bugger now arent you.........:E

J

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Seems silly to try and "save" the engine at the risk of not saving the occupants....as soon as there is a gear problem, the aircraft effectively belongs to the insurance company anyway; get yourself and pax out safely then let QBE or whoever deal with it.

(spoken as one who has, not one who will )

[Bendo]

Nice photo of a cyclone fence. In the background, out of focus, there appears to be an aeroplane in a spot of bother... what's the story there?













:8

[Led Zep]

One of them barbed, terrorist proof fences, no less.

[Pinky the pilot]

A bit hard to tell from the photo but I'd hazard a guess and say that the props were not feathered.

[Critical Reynolds No]

bad post.:mad::mad::mad:

[Capt Wally]

On close inspection of that photo you can see off in the distance a Piper PA28 waiting to go to the outhouse!:).
You can see the pilot of the busted plane being booked, probably by 'Dano' of Hawaii 5-0 claim with the muscle man standing over the lot of 'em!:} Pilot saying "you can't be serious, your worried about me not having my ASIC turned around the correct way for display when I've just pulled off this amazing ldg?":}

The cyclone fence post is as bent as the props are !(I know there meant to be that way)

Fiery standing beside firetruck has in itch !:)(hands in pocket/s)

Man in dark clothing wearing no safety vest, 'Dano' will book him next!:}


Oh I just noticed a plane that's bowing to the press !:}

CW:)

[apache]

was GS the pilot ? looks like it!... Not an ASIC issue, it is a parking issue!
"as soon as we can turn this runway into a westfields, you will HAVE to have a parking ticket to exit the building! I will let you off with a warning this time"

[Desert Flower]

A bit hard to tell from the photo but I'd hazard a guess and say that the props were not feathered.

I'd hazard a guess & say you're right there Pinky! And the aircraft is VH-XGW, a PA-31P-350 owned by Wingaway Air.

DF.

[Harry Cooper]

I don't know, i reckon by the looks of the left engine that the props are feathered. The top blade is clearly gray whereas the next blade around CW appears to be black (i.e the back of the blade), which could only occur if the blades were feathered.

[Peter Fanelli]

CW appears to be black (i.e the back of the blade),


That would actually be the front of the blade. :)

[Dog One]

XGW used to be ownwd by the former Airlines of Tasmania and used as a air ambulance.

[equal]

feathered to the max.

[Capt Wally]

.............I equally agree equal:)

CW

[PA39]

HO Hum Another PA31 Nose gear failure due to lack of proper maintenance.......and the beat goes on.

[Stationair8]

****ty paint scheme now, compared to when it was privately owned at YMMB back in the 1980's. She had a very flash paint scheme and a very smick leather interior, not to mention the best cockpit layout of any Piper/Cessna twin I had flown including the RNAV setup,no GPS back then!

[Bankstownboy]

Went past on my bike ride this morning and XGW is now parked (with nose gear attached) in an area near National Parks & Wildlife Authority.

EDIT: Went for another ride this arvo and the prop on the starboard was in the feathered position.

[The Original Jetpipe]

Hi

Another U/C problem?????? Thats the second one for Airtex in the last few months! How many "problems" does that company have to have before CASA move in and close that place down!!! The level of poor maintenance in that company is :ugh:

TOJP.

[RatsoreA]

The original Jetpipe -

Are sniffing jetfuel out of your jet pipe? I am utterly agasht at your uninformed and inflamitory post. If you actually knew what you were talking about you would not have embarassed yourself publicly like that. Same for you PA39. Engage brain before offering your OPINION in future, might be some good advice....

:mad:

[The Original Jetpipe]

RatsoreA.

Thank you for your interesting post!!! However I have first hand experience of the level of poor standards that is offered by there maintenance depart! To quote a case..... The SR22 that crashed last year (Near the M7) due to the engine failing and the last undercarriage failer they had!! All these aircraft where maintained at Airtex. I can also mention the "poor" standard of hangar standards, all add up to a company that needs to be looked at by CASA.

Take a look a round the place and you will understand! there is NO place for poor maintenance in Aviation!!!! :ugh:

TOJP.

[Atlas Shrugged]

The Original Jetpipe,

Unless you were the individual whom last worked on the nosegear of XGW, or to a lesser extent the pilot who flew the aircraft at the time (which I have a more than fair idea that you weren't), then you have nothing other than an ignorant speculative opinion to offer at this time, nor indeed any idea whatsoever that the incident was maintenance related.

If you were, then perhaps you may care to explain yourself. If not, please restrain your opinions and wait for the final report.

[airmuster]

I think the fence has two barbed wires.

[bizzybody]

"BRING BACK THE BIFF!!!!"

yes they have had a few incidents over the last few months but look at the amount of flying they do.

Compare it to Qantas or someone like that. They get incedents most days of the week. Some big some small just take a look at the ATSB site. Playing the numbers mate.

Having said that, there are a lot of old PA31's out there getting around and they aint getting any younger

[The Original Jetpipe]

All

I have no intention of turning this in a personnel @$£$% match!
I can only quote from the figures released by the ATSB and from aircraft owners, pilots and suppliers that I have dealings with. They have all stated about the general poor standard of the aircraft that Airtex maintains. I understand that their aircraft do a large number of hours flying per year. However this is NO EXCUSE for poor standards!! I am not commenting on the cause of the last accident, that is a job for the ATSB. Just the general standard of there fleet! I know of parts that are swapped between aircraft with no traceability, and simple things like nav lights not working is a cause for concern! (Its just stopped working now) can only be used once!! Not every night!!

[Atlas Shrugged]

It's not your place, nor is it mine, to comment on the cause of, likely cause of, or any reason for or how the incident may have occurred without knowing ALL of the facts. Nor is it your or my place to comment on any organisation in the manner in which you have in your previous postings.

There are more appropriate places to voice your concerns than the internet.

[RatsoreA]

Well said Atlas. Couldn't agree with you more.

As for TOJP...

I happen to have first hand experiance at the company in question, and have found them to be nothing short of the finest GA company I have ever dealt with (No, I don't own stock and I am not related to Dieter! :} ).

These 'figures' you quote of, I am assuming by your post that you have had time since this incident to run a complete analaysis of all the hours flown by each PA31 on line, compared with every maintence issue ever reported by "the ATSB and from aircraft owners, pilots and suppliers". You must be some sort of statsitical genius, or an idiot savant (or, just the first part I suspect). To survery such a broad range of people, to troll through endless data from the ATSB and coalate all that into one consise brief opionion for us all is utterly amazing.

Oh, no, wait, I am wrong, you are spouting un-informed opinion plucked from the furthest and darkest reaches of your "Original Jetpipe".

Say, by the way the champ are you a pilot, maintainer, or mearly and annorak wearing plane spotter?

[bizzybody]

I agree mate. Airtex (a competitor of mine) are a great outfit and i wish we flew as much as they did.

To be honest though, lets say RatsoreA you work there, there will be things happening behind the scenes that you as a pilot would not know about. Management would not want to let the flight crew and other staff know about CASA problems because it will cause dramas in the ranks. Think about it.

I know people at Airtex and other people that are very close to the company and I know that there are problems there, they may be wild rumours but given the incidents they have had, it would be crazy to thing everything was 100%, A1, rosey nothing could be better. If anyone does think that they are an idiot.


BB

[RatsoreA]

Yes, Bizz, I agree with you there. I am sure if you went deep enough through QANTAS, you find them not to be 100% what thier corperate image team would have you believe they are! I think that would stand true of any company.

But I would like to pull you up on one thing... I don't work for em. I work for the Federal govt for a department I am loathe to mention on this medium... (Minds out of the gutter people!) but I do have some assosiations with them.

Nobody is perfect, but to go sprouting wild accusations as TOJP did just boils my blood... :mad:

[bizzybody]

Very true RatsoreA

BB

[The Original Jetpipe]

All,

None of my posts have been a personnel attack on any members of this network!!! so why do you feel the need to do so? Can you not comment is a professional manner???

I can comment on Airtex like anyone else, you do not need to be a genius to see from the reports that the ATSB have released, that they have had a large number of incidents relating to poor maintenance. BB is correct in stating that the management will not let any problems relating to CASA issues be know to the workers, however you would be walking round with your eyes shut not to see the problems!

To say they are the finest GA company (RatsoreA) is complete and utter B*****KS!!! :ugh:
You need to pull your head out off your a***se and look around!!!!!

TOJP.

[Chief Air]

Jetpipe
You may be interested that PGW Mojave landed at YSDU today with a feathered engine!! May be same engine that had a bandaid put on it at YORG a few weeks ago after blowing a cyl off. Pilot of that flight has now left the company because of maintance concerns.

[The Original Jetpipe]

Thanks Chief Air.

And with that posting.....................I rest my case!!! :D

TOJP.

[nasmablue]

chief air - i'm not sure who your sources are but they aren't particularly accurate. If you don't know what you are talking about you really should resist spouting rubbish

[kimwestt]

The Original Jetpipe
Whilst the Igarden gnomeH is still calling some of the shots: ie everyone is dispensable, esp pilots,: the morale and care factor will continually strive, and succeed, to sink to new and lower levels.:ugh::yuk:

[RatsoreA]

WTF??

:confused:

Anyway,

Exactly what I was thinking Nasma

[loopylarry]

TOJP,

I don't know where you got your information from but Airtex didn't do the maintenance on that SR22...

[TurboOtter]

SR22??
Not sure about that but I heard that Airtex are in the final stages of gaining maintenance approval for the SR71. Applications are being accepted by the chief pilot for flight crew positions as we speak.
Also heard the Aerostars are being fitted out with tanks to conduct inflight refuelling on the SR71. There is talk of running them 55% over MTOW for this ops. CASA approved 60% from Sydney, however thats not available during Curfew ops. The one conditioin they have stipulated is that the pilot must be less than 60 Kgs. So I guess that leaves me out!:}

[kimwestt]

The Original Jetpipe
Can't you count? That would make about FIVE u/c related incidents in the last three months !!:mad:

[wessex19]

the word I am hearing is the blame game is being placed on "the king".