QF pilots make a stand over blocked drains....

[speedbirdhouse]

From todays SMH.

------------------


Qantas pilot given grounds for concern



A QANTAS pilot refused to fly a Boeing 767 jet out of Sydney until a sink blocked by coffee grounds had been cleared because he feared it could endanger the craft.

The coffee revelation comes after a water spillage on a Qantas 747 flying into Bangkok last month led to the plane losing all electrical power and having to land on back-up batteries.

An investigation is under way to discover exactly what caused the leak on flight QF2 to Bangkok but in the interim Qantas has issued stringent procedures to deal with spillages on planes.

Initial reports indicate that on the January 7 Bangkok flight electrical power was lost after water from what is believed to be a blocked sink leaked through a cracked drip tray on to the main generators.

Two weeks ago a Qantas pilot refused to fly a Boeing 767 from Sydney after discovering that a galley sink had been blocked with coffee grounds.

On the pilot's insistence the maintenance staff checked the plane and are understood to have found the drip tray on the plane was cracked in exactly the same place as the one on the troubled QF2 flight into Bangkok.

A Qantas spokesperson confirmed that the sink had been blocked by coffee grounds and that the flight was delayed while engineers fixed the problem.

"The captain of the 767 requested it be cleared, which was done without need for the aircraft to be taken out of service," the spokesperson said.

Flight Attendants Association of Australia international division president Steven Reed said Qantas had reissued cabin crew with procedures on dealing with liquids on planes.

Australian Transport Safety Bureau deputy director of aviation Julian Walsh said a preliminary report into the QF2 flight would be released in the next two weeks.

Boeing spokesman Ken Morton said: "The investigation that is under way will be looking at all aspects and causes because we want to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

"If a worldwide alert was needed on coffee grounds then we would do it."

[Gone Sailing]

It is not just coffee that blocks the drains...

When the Cabin crew pour milk and orange juice down the drain (especially pulpy juice) the milk curdles and you are left with a sludge the consistency of yogurt. This sludge does not flow too well...

The drains are not the best designs either, they are often too small a diameter, poorly routed and difficult to access and clean. There are many low points where sludge and gunk accumulate and block the drains...

[airsupport]

If a worldwide alert was needed on coffee grounds then we would do it.

This problem of putting the coffee grounds down sinks on Aircraft has been known for decades, I just cannot believe some Cabin Crew still do it. :ugh:

We used to get this back on the Viscounts. :ugh:

[obira]

To 'put' something somewhere requires an intention. There is no need to make such a claim in order to explain the presence of coffee grounds in sinks and drains.

On a SIN/LHR sector in each J/C galley the crew would make and clean at least 10 bodums (coffee-plungers) of coffee and a similar number of bodums of tea. If from each of these 12 cup bodums just 5 coffee grounds or 5 tea leaves found their way into the sink, then by the end of that one sector there would be 50 coffee grounds and 50 tea leaves from each galley. Add to that the possibility that when opening the vacuum sealed packs of coffee they can suddenly give way and shower coffee around or a hole might be torn in the side of the packet which makes spillages likely.

The point is that no matter how careful the cabin crew are when cleaning these bodums SOME coffee grounds and tea leaves will inevitably end up in the sink. Even a small number when multiplied will result in an accumulation.
Before claiming cabin crew are being irresponsible and blaming them for blocked drains why don't you put yourself in their position and make up a bodum of coffee, let it brew for a while then plunge it. Come back in a few minutes and empty it and clean it. Make sure there are no grounds left on the top of the plunger as these will end up in the cups of the next drinkers, be they passengers or crew and they will complain bitterly. Try doing it in the upper deck galley on the 747 or in the front galley on the 767. Try doing it with bottles of wine, juice, water etc on the bench.

I have never ever seen cabin crew put coffee grounds or tea leaves in the sink. I have never ever seen cabin crew pour milk or yoghurt or orange juice down the sink. I have seen 'helpful' passengers pour milk or juice down the sink if they take a glass back to the galley on their way to the toilet. Working in such a confined space, it is, however, inevitable that the occasional spillage will occur.


Boeing place drip trays on the aircraft because it is highly likely that spillages or blocked drains will occur. When those drip trays are cracked the swiss cheese is all lined up.

Obira

[airsupport]

I am sorry if you don't like it, but this problem has been around for at least 40 years that I personally have seen, even back on the Viscounts in the 1960s the Hosties insisted on doing it no matter how many times they were told not to. :ugh:

IF what you said is true, then your Employer should provide some sort of container for these grounds to be kept in for the duration of the flight, so you don't "accidentally" put these grounds down the drains.

[Jabawocky]

Take one problem out of the equation

http://www.nestle.com.au/Articles/Archive/NESCAFE+GOLD+-+Now+smoother+and+richer+in+taste.htm

Then try employing some Lames to do the maintenance.....novel idea:ooh:

[obira]

Airsupport, it seems that you have never seen a coffee or tea plunger let alone tried to clean one. The cabin crew must work with what they are given. You may have seen coffee grounds in drains on Viscounts but jumping to the conclusion that they are being put there when there is another reasonable explanation for them ending up there is not helpful.

Jabawocky, I agree that that would be an excellent way to remove one problem from the equation :)

Obira

[Cypher]

Wouldn't a $1 deep plug sink strainer like they have on the Gulfstreams solve the problem?

Grounds, pulp, small children all caught in the strainer, lift the strainer up and empty into the bin.... sink unblocked.....

or would $1 stretch the budget? :p

[Keg]

I wonder if this would have happened if we'd stayed with the drip filter coffee (much better quality in my opinion) rather than switch to this crappy stuff.....probably not! :eek: :(

It's interesting how cost cutting in one area leads to a stuff up elsewhere!

[lowerlobe]

In my time of more than 30 years with the company blocked drains have been around.

Crew themselves have tried to avoid having this occur because they don't want to work in a galley with carpet like a soaked sponge.But this has happened for a variety of reasons....

.Poor drain design even with the new (in my time anyway) of the vacuum disposal system in the 400's which was designed for this very purpose.However,on how many sectors did these not work?

How many times would you have plastic garbage bags with multiple coffee grounds and fluid in them after a 12,13 or longer hour sector and where do you put them for landing.They are easy to tear and then guess what comes out ......water with coffee grounds,tea leaves,orange juice etc...

.Accidents in the galley.When you are rushing with a meal service and there are only a few of you sometimes these things happen.It's true that there are some lazy cabin crew but that is symptomatic of every profession you care to look at including pilots,managers,teachers......any group.

.A build up of foreign matter over time.

The point I'm interested in is why all of a sudden after more than 30 years is this now a problem.

Electricity was not invented last week and although the new aircaft have glass cockpits and other new wonderful toys all aircaft had avionics bays when I started.

We always had the problem of an almost tidal surge coming out of the galleys on descent and used more blankets than you could think of.

Is there something else that the company has decided not to do in order to save money and this is allowing the water to get into places it has the potential to do a lot of harm?

[NAMPS]

Why would you design an aircraft in such a way that the electrical bits are directly underneath the plumbing?

[farrari]

Keg, it wasn't about cost cutting. The change from filter coffee to bodum coffee was as a result of inflight trials. The bodum coffee received better reviews from passengers than did the filter coffee. Everyone assumes that every decision made is about cost cutting, which is not always the case.

[speedbirdhouse]

Rubbish.

It was cost cutting that led to QF's decision to replace the inventum drip filter style coffee with these cheap plastic bodums.

Taste???? You have got to be joking. It can't be kept satisfactorily hot for longer than 5 minutes as it isn't insulated [see other airlines product] and the taste is appalling.

I can't tell you how many cups come back half full.

The other problem that QF ignores are the incidences of burns caused by the inordinate amount of pressure that is needed to plunge these bodums.

On occasions you have to almost stand on them with one palm to plunge only to have them "let go" all at once with the resultant spout of hot liquid erupt out scalding faces, chests, arms and hands.

Does QF know of these issues??

Yep. We are told to discard the contents if they resist being plunged and try again????? :ugh:

OH & S????? Not when it comes to spending money. They don't give a flying F@ck.:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk: :yuk::yuk:

[L5Brassco]

Lowerlobe is correct
We are directed to pour coffee, OJ, milk etc into the garbage bins. These bins, in all galleys, are a hard plastic shell lined with a plastic bag. Often the shell corners have holes in them from rough handling. The plastic bag liners are easily pierced by glass, aluminium foil etc.
The result is leaks in the galley during flight and often a tidal flood on landing.
The ice drawers at door 2 crossover, on the 400, regulaly spill out on landing and they only have ice in them!!!
Good on the 767 Captain for making a stand.

[Nudlaug]

I reckon there is no need to point fingers/accuse any particular party. As with most things in life, the whole issue has not one single culprit, but many.

1. The drain design is probably silly and could be much better

2. Maintenance of the drains could be better, not because of anyones laziness (although that too) but various reasons, time constraints, cost cutting, manpower, you name it, just many factors in this one alone

3. The location of plumbing/galleys over main equipment bays, placement of GCU's in close prox so it can be swamped with water at the same time.

4. Flight attendants putting stuff in the drains that doesn't belong there. So many factors in this one again, sometimes due to laziness, sometimes accidental, most times because of poor procedures/tools, lack of manpower, the whole range...noones single fault. And to be honest the drain system SHOULD be able to handle accidental AND the occasional intentional spills by lazy people. Yes it should never happen, but it always will. And a good drain system has to be able to handle that scenario.

5. cracked driptrays, bad inspections.....

What i am trying to say...... there is no single faction/procedure at fault here, it is a bigger picture problem...no need to accuse engineers for not cleaning, or flight attendants for pouring, or pilots for flaring too high...it is all of us, and management and.... and some more....

[airsupport]

The cabin crew must work with what they are given. You may have seen coffee grounds in drains on Viscounts but jumping to the conclusion that they are being put there when there is another reasonable explanation for them ending up there is not helpful.

Glad to see nothing has changed in the last 40 years. :rolleyes:

Back in the 1960s the Hosties also said it wasn't them that did it. :ugh:

IF you must dispose of these coffee grinds in flight, and the Company does not provide a suitable container, even the toilet would be preferable to the galley drain.

[twiggs]

Nudlaug is spot on, no individual or individual group is solely to blame.

Just noticed another hole in the swiss cheese:

The other problem that QF ignores are the incidences of burns caused by the inordinate amount of pressure that is needed to plunge these bodums.

On occasions you have to almost stand on them with one palm to plunge only to have them "let go" all at once with the resultant spout of hot liquid erupt out scalding faces, chests, arms and hands.

Does QF know of these issues??

Yep. We are told to discard the contents if they resist being plunged and try again?????

We are presently disposing of far more coffee grinds because some of the coffee batches are making the plunger seize; latest cheap brand of coffee.

[mavrik1]

Try telling a qf hostie what to do? They are the main cause for these problems, they are trained but still pour whatever done the sinks because they are lazy, then once the drain is blocked they come bitching to the engineer saying they haven't done their job properly. Engineers have been dealing with this same crap from the beginning! pour the coffee down the toilet and flush the left over ice down the toilets at the end of every sector and pour a couple of mugs of boiling water down the drains at the end of every sector. problem fixed for good, but it will never happen!

[cudza101]

As NAMPS has alluded to, I think we're all missing the point here. Surely the question is why any aircraft (and particularly one with as much in-built redundancy as a 747) is susceptible to coffee grounds blocking a drain.

Am I missing something?!

[ms disengaged]

Quote-

"Am I missing something?!"

-----------------

Obviously not [read previous to your post].

It's ALL the fault of the Hosties.....:rolleyes:

[RedTBar]

Glad to see nothing has changed in the last 40 years.

Back in the 1960s the Hosties also said it wasn't them that did it.

IF you must dispose of these coffee grinds in flight, and the Company does not provide a suitable container, even the toilet would be preferable to the galley drain.

Another suggestion from someone who has absolutely no idea of what it is like to work in the cabin.

"Excuse me....Excuse me....get out of the toilet you lazy passengers..I need to empty this Bodum"
Yeah right ,mate.

How about we have some sort of device where we can jettison the mess out into the atmosphere.Thats about as realistic as the toilet idea.probably some pilot who gets upset when they want their meal in the middle of a meal service and can't understand where the crew are.

As lobey said how about the company gives us the equipment to do the job.Plastic bags are easy to tear,you can't use the galley equipment because it is not designed by anyone who actually has to use it.

Then we get ideas from people who have never worked as cabin crew!!! brilliant.

[mrpaxing]

would be great customer service coming out of the dunny with the rinsed coffee plunger in view of the punters, especially in p/c. good one airsupport.
lets not forget all the glue that comes of wine bottles in the ice drawers. this is a factor on the 767 as well as the 400's with p/c.:E

[PyroTek]

how about in-sink-erators! and cabin crew flushing the crap down to wherever its stored with a bit of water before it clogs the drains!

Prevention is better than fixing a problem which has developed!!

[RedTBar]

PyroTek,Great idea except for..

They don't always work but why that is you would have to ask a engineer.I'm not sure if it is because of a poor design (cheap) or what.I have seen the same aircraft over a 10 day period with the same insinkerator not working.This maybe because the engineers are not given the spare parts or time to fix them but the reality is that then you are forced to get rid of the rubbish in another way which is not ideal and only helps the holes in the swiss cheese model to align.

The location of them is very poor as you have to lean over other areas that might cop whatever it is you are getting rid of. Again it might actually help to get the crew who work on the aircraft to help design the galleys and such.

The part I think is frustrating is the people whop expect cabin crew to do a fishes and loaves trick when they fly.

Give us the equipment and we can do the job but to blame someone when the procedures and equipment are wrong is the real fault and nothing more than pure laziness.

[Short_Circuit]

RedTBar
over a 10 day period with the same insinkerator not working
You are correct. QF don't usually have serviceable spares available.
Broken spare parts removed from aircraft are often not repaired until we requisition a replacement,
then they will start working on it and it may appear a week later. This is done to save money???
- or so they think.:ugh:

[RedTBar]

Short_Circuit,

I think it must drive you guys crazy with frustration when you can't do something because of a lack of parts.

You can see it in the eyes of the engineers as they walk around with the log book and see what they can and can't do.

[Short_Circuit]

Getting spare parts from stores is like waiting for a heart / lung donner to croak.

[airsupport]

Another suggestion from someone who has absolutely no idea of what it is like to work in the cabin.

Well excuse me for trying to help. :ugh:

There is ONLY one way to fix this problem that has been around for 40 years or more, that is for you Hosties to do as Engineers have been telling you all that time "DO NOT PUT COFFEE GROUNDS DOWN THE GALLEY DRAINS" :=

Which part of that don't you understand??? :ugh:

[obira]

Hundreds of different cabin crew have told you the same thing over and over for decades and every single one of them is a liar,
OR maybe they're all telling you the same thing because it's true.

We are not putting coffee grounds down the drains!

Following all procedures and using all the equipment exactly as trained will still result in coffee grains and tea leaves in drains.

Beating up on cabin crew will not help. Listening to the people who are performing a task will help make the performance of that task safer.

Get the things which block the drains out of the service or get a better filter system for the drains or even better do both.

[PyroTek]

i'm beginning to like the idea of mini strainers in sink holes...
we have one here, it's super effective! and not really a thing of engineering.. its a thing of 'when it gets full of crap from washing the dishes', you just lift it out and put the contents in a bin!

I was pretty amazed at the invention too, guys!

[knuckledragger1]

A funny thing is History....Hmmm

85 years of passenger transport and catering.....Hmmm

Standing on the shoulders of our predecessors.....Hmmm

Constant evolution and refinement....Hmmmmmmmm

Same old problems.....Huh???????


What is left??????

Eureka!!!!!!

Redesign the galley drains for the way they are really used not how they are theoretically supposed to work.

When you buy a new aeroplane or upgrade the galleys......specify the drains to handle food waste!!!!!!

Oh and schedule more time for enzyme drain cleaning

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[obira]

There is no procedure in the cabin crew operations manual saying that all galley equipment must be switched off before leaving the aircraft. If I have missed it then give me the reference, otherwise you are just making another false assumption.

As far as the suggestion thing goes, if you did some research you might find that a crew member won a q innovations, or whatever it was called, award for suggesting disposable liners for the sinks at some time over the last decade.

The 'sinks' are not real sinks but shallow depressions about 30mm deep which have a wire strainer basket in them. The wire does not stop finer particles from getting through and there is no plug hole as such for the type of sink strainer you would find at home, instead there is a number of very small perforations which together would cover the size of a 10 cent piece at the bottom of this 3cm deep depression. If anyone were to pour the remaining contents of a 12 cup coffee plunger into this 'sink' it would fill the 'sink' immediately and render it unusable for the rest of the flight. This is why the idea that crew are putting/pouring coffee grounds down the sink is risible.

[RedTBar]

airsupport,
The only one who doesn't understand the situation is apparently you!
Try and stay on the same page and realise that crew do not intentionally put coffee grounds down the sink.
If you are trying to help by coming up with nonsensical ideas like using the toilet then you should keep those ideas to yourself because you risk showing how little you know about the problem.

As with the others here that know what they are talking about the only solution is to get the equipment right in the first place.

[RedTBar]

By the way the problem with the galley power ( thats assuming what you are talking about Stick'm up) is that if you have an oven switched on when you are taxing to the terminal and galley power is switched off from the flight deck it doesn't matter how many times you press the oven switch the oven will come on again when the flightdeck turns the power on again.

[airsupport]

airsupport,
The only one who doesn't understand the situation is apparently you!
Try and stay on the same page and realise that crew do not intentionally put coffee grounds down the sink.
If you are trying to help by coming up with nonsensical ideas like using the toilet then you should keep those ideas to yourself because you risk showing how little you know about the problem.


IF you Hosties ever used the equipment properly it would be okay. :ugh:

These galley drains, be they on a Viscount, a DC9, a Boeing or an Airbus, are NOT a rubbish bin as you all seem to think. IF you use them as they are meant to be used, everything would be okay. :=

[RedTBar]

airsupport,
yeah your right mate, all crew hate the company and don't give a rats about safety or their own life and thats why we all keep throwing the coffee and anything else we can find down the sink.We actually go out of our way to find new things to stuff up in the hope that something big will happen.

Maybe you could talk the company into putting a toilet near each galley for us to clean the bodum's out but not for anyone to actually use as a toilet.:yuk:

Your too good for us sherlock:8

[mavrik1]

Yes we know you dont put coffee in the sink intensionally, and in most cases its not the problem, more the mixture of two different fluids being mixed i.e. orange juice and red wine or orange juice and milk when mixed together forms to sludge rapidly.
The galley sink drains have small lines so they don't take up to much room and run down the insides of the galley walls and save weight.
The same diameter lines have been used for years for a reason! Where the blockage 90% of the time occurs is around a valve which designed to regulate the air flow through lines due to the aircraft being pressurised, we do not want to loss to much air flow to atmosphere, it can also create flexible lines to clapse close on themselves and create higher noise levels in the cabin and extra fuel burn due to increased airflow/pressurisation losses.
There is maintenance being carried out various intervals where chemicals are put down the lines that eat away at the sludge, but due to high utilisation and poor inflight maintenance we are seeing blockages more than ever.

Engineering can not be relied on, the crew need to be educated.

Pouring the boiling water down the drains as regular as possible through flight will eliminate these problems for good.
On the ground is not as effective as inflight due to having no vacuum drawing the fluids and sludge through the lines.

The hosties these days fail to understand after their 6 week course that they are flying in mechanical machine thats doing 1000k an hour at 40,000ft, its something they need to work with and around to ensure good servicability. I think they forget about that and take it all for granted that is a miracle in itself.

Don't even get me started on the physic's of the dunny system blockages.

[airtags]

mavrik1 (btw how's goose?)

well said - fine particles ex the coffee bodums (hate that coffee anyway) and all the other liquids that congeal in the meandering bending narrow pipes all combine to create the issue. I always try to see things from the view of those doing the job and it seems to me (from my obs and speaking with cabin crew) that a lot of CC are quite concious of the problems and do flush with hot water typically during the cabin prep stage - some even use layers of chux as strainers and leave the grounds in the bodum.

That said I'm sure there are some that need educating - maybe the LAME's can send a few photos of what it takes to their CC news etc.,

The main thing is that if something is not 100% right then its a no brainer - we must fix it*. - it's an overt, not negotiable, concious decision: we're either the premium airline in service and safety or we are not. If any airline (or crew member) choses the latter, then frankly they don't deserve to be in the Australian skies.

(*slight diversion but this also applies to the Q carpark gates in MEL which (when I visted yesterday) I was told are still U.S three weeks after the failure and are still being manned by a contract security company - cue the cost cutting bean counters)

[teresa green]

I am the one who originally brought up the problems about coffee and the drains. Why? because as the boss I heard consistent complaints from the E/Os about the coffee. I also spoke to duty engineers in SYD about the problem in both the eighties and the nineties, and I have PERSONALLY seen C/C doing it in front of my eyes whilst on walkabout around the cabin, (you could in those days) To me it was pure laziness, as a bag was provided to which you could tip the drained dregs into. Just about every tech log written out had at least one item about coffee dregs. And they still don't get it!! Or they still don't care. Crap that the bag will overflow DRAIN them first then they won't. Even I, who is useless in the kitchen, has worked that out.

[speedbirdhouse]

Crap, bull**** and rubbish................

QF only moved to loose grounds 2 or maybe 3 years ago.

Up until that point the only issue with blocked drains from a Flight Attendant's point of view was curdled milk.

We were instructed not to empty milk into the sinks together with other liquids [wine, OJ etc] as doing so creates a curdled mess/blockage.

You are sir, full of it.

Oh BTW, a perusal of the main pprune thread on this issue will show many informative posts from one of our current engineers [NSEU?].

He states that investigations into the BKK incident show that coffee grinds had NOTHING to do with the blockage.

[teresa green]

The Tech logs were recorded every flight by the flight engineer. In them he reported all hold items and trans quals. The records are there for all to see. If I could have a dollar for everytime a drain was blocked by coffee grains AND recorded in the tech logs as hold items, I would be able to pay all my wives a lot more. I questioned a female flight attendent about the practice when I actually saw it happen, and her answer: everybody does it! At that stage it was not considered a dangerous practice and it still not might be, but ask any LAME and he/she will soon let you know what they think of the results. Do you throw the damm things down your sink at home??

[speedbirdhouse]

Surely you are not that stupid teresa green??

1. Qantas wasn't using loose ground coffee until 2 or 3 years ago so pouring coffee down the drains prior to this was never a problem and as such wasn't against company policy/direction.

2. If we were not using loose coffee [fact] can you explain to all of us what you mean by "bags" provided for the disposal of [fictitious] coffee grounds as I have been around since the 80's and I know nothing of them.

3. It's the "grounds" that are the problem NOT the coffee.

4. Are you capable of making the distinction??

---------------------------

Why isn't loose grain sugar permitted on the flight deck??

Surely pilots wouldn't be so lazy as to let it spill into the avionics equipment ? :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[NAMD]

Just out of interest, coffee down the pipes was an issue in the particular now non-existant airline that I used to frequent. It had a nasty habit of putting big brown stains down the side of nice white aircraft, and no amount of cleaning gets it whiter than white again.

[RedTBar]

teresa green,
I'm not sure when we started to use Bodums but it certainly was not in the 80's and I'm fairly sure it was not the 90's but I definitely cannot remember ever getting a bag(s) purely for coffee grounds ever.

Certainly over time there will be a build up of material in the sink whether thats coffee grounds from cleaning the bodum into the bin (which is right next to the sink and thats where you get the water from to rinse the bodum out) or sludge from a combination such as cleaning out baby's bottles and juice.

I can tell you one thing though and that is you would have to be completely stupid to empty a bodum into a sink and then have to spend the next 20 minutes trying to clean it up.Crew need that sink and are not likely to block something up that we use every 5 minutes when we work.

Although people might make mistakes and that means all people including pilots this is really a design problem.

[Short_Circuit]

Oh BTW, a perusal of the main pprune thread on this issue will show many informative posts from one of our current engineers [NSEU?].

He states that investigations into the BKK incident show that coffee grinds had NOTHING to do with the blockage.

Well not entirely confirmed. There was one section of heater ribbon inop just before the drain mast. In this very cold area sludge & COFFEE grinds will coagulate together more rapidly and probably did. The flow starts to back up and holds fluids in the cold area. The drain hose/pipe froze completely and ruptured. This would not necessarily happen if just clear water was flowing down the drains.

There was a few problems compounding to the end result, plumbing causing a black out!

[mrpaxing]

bodum was introduced in the 90's through p/c in qf. being a former a/c i never forget one certain chief steward kept asking for a fresh bodum coffee every 5 minutes in the cabin to make sure the coffee is delivered as hot as possible. ;)

[lowerlobe]

I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction...

The Cabin Crew are the same...and the equipment is basically the same....

So why now are we getting a problem with fluids getting into the avionics?

Electricity is the same and water flows downhill now just as it always has.

If it is the actions of the Cabin Crew then why did this not happen when we first got the 747's or even the 707's because water has always come out of the galley's and ice bins since I can remember as well as the drains being blocked?

By the way for those who like to think it is the cabin crew's fault we didn't have Bodum coffee in those days and the sinks blocked up then too....

[teresa green]

Speedbirdhouse, an interesting name, you are either my vintage, or you have family or you have read about Karachi, either way an interesting choice. Ok we will have another go. If you have been flying since the 80s I can only presume you are a FSD/CSM if so you will know that the voyage report was handed to the Flight Engineer, to record any problems up his/her end of the ship. You could bet the problems where always basically the same. Blocked drains, U/S entertainment systems, galley electrical malfunctions, or dunny problems. Now I am sure if you are really interested in past flights and tech logs I suggest you contact A/C documention I will even give you the address H1/271 jet base and ask for some copies of tech logs from the b747/200, the classic, to the 400 regarding problems with galley drains, you will be amazed at what is retrieved out of them. Are you still with me? Now acting on the presumption that coffee grinds, food, etc don't leap in there by them selves, and PAX don't have access to the galleys (or shouldn't) there is only one conclusion isn't there? SOME OF YOUR CREW ARE LAZY. or suffer from poor motivation, or simply don't give a rats, and if you are a CSM this will be no news to you. The majority, the best people you could fly with, it would have been a boring job without them, and I made some great friends in fifty years of flying. The loose sugar or anything else for that matter could spill during turbulence and go into areas around the thrust levers which would need to be vacuumed out, as soon as possible, for obvious reasons, I believe that was your question. Happy flying speedbird.

[lowerlobe]

Talking about curious names Teresa Green.....

I note that you didn't answer my questions....So...

Firstly,we did not use Bodum Coffee in the 80's.....let's look at the next excuse..

Now your telling us about food in the drain and I guess your talking about grains of rice or something like that.Since we don't do washing up in the galley's and the sink is in a food preparation area I guess any normal person would conclude that the sink is ..

Poorly designed and/or
Located poorly.....


If the sink cannot tolerate various fluids that we have to dispose of and there was no company directive or specialised equipment then this keeps coming back to poorly designed and located equipment....

Since you did not work as Cabin Crew then you would not have also known about parents who would walk into a galley and rinse out their little one's baby bottles.That means milk and as we all know what happens when you pour juice before or after....

This may come as a big shock but when you design something from scratch you would think that the design would understand the use that galley sinks get.Boeing as well as customers like QF operated 707's as well and like other aircraft had sinks too.....

As far as I know the airbus has a ring pull like operation that can unblock the sink using some sort of pressure dump.

Instead of just another anti cabin crew post how about you look at the equipment used by people who are not employed to be or expected to be techical/engineering crew.To suggest otherwise shows a certain laziness/unwillingness in that you are not attempting to understand that not all people are engineers or pilots.

Lastly and I note you have not answered this question as well.Why did the power failure on the BKK flight not happen all these years when all our aircraft since probably the Connies have avionics?

Since we have always had leaks from water sources in the aircraft and these flow downhill why have they not had this effect before?

Or Teresa Green are you going to try and blame cabin Crew for every mishap the airline encounters.....

[Short_Circuit]

I just had some girls over for lunch and I made a few pots of filter coffee. Knowing of the arguments on this thread, I was especially careful not to spill any grinds on the sink. By Crikey, there were some grinds that escaped. As the sink was fresh and dry, I could wipe them up. The next pot was needed. I have a plastic reusable filter, but it was covered in old, wet, sticky grinds and sludge. No amount to smacking it would clear the old Bitter grinds. I had to do a quick rinse as I do not like old bitter grinds in my coffee. I guess I could have gone to the toilet with a jug of water and flushed then away, but what would the girls think of that!!:yuk:
Bring back the coffee pillows, problem solved.

[speedbirdhouse]

terasa green,

your bla bla bla post does nothing to answer any of my questions relating to your statements that blocked drains are the result of ongoing problems with lazy cabin crew dumping coffee grains into the sinks dating back to the 80s.

1. We didnt use loose coffee in those days. It is a recent, "enhancement":rolleyes:

2. Tell us about the bags we were supplied with [but didn't use:rolleyes:] to dispose of these non existent grains.


Are you able to comprehend the concept that loose packet sugar is prohibited from the flight deck because it is recognised that DESPITE people's best intentions **** happens ?

The threat has long been recognized and removed ala Reason's swiss cheese model.

Try really, really, really hard and you might just see some similarities between the two issues.

Or maybe not............:rolleyes:

-------------

Short circuit is right and states the bleeding obvious.

"Bring back the coffee pillows, problem solved."

[Roger Standby]

Evening all,

Being ground bound, I have no intimate knowledge of this issue. A curious question tho- I believe that in cases of severe turb, the SOP's are to pour the pots onto the floor. Is this true and if it is, where does the fluid go?

I prepare to be shot down...

Cheers.

[troppo]

Sheesh and I thought that ****e was instant. They could just serve alcohol or carry a couple of bounty and colas cos that stuff cleans out blocked plumbing a treat. Believe me!

[genex]

Hey let's not forget the other item of significance embedded here.....an AIPA member actually standing up for something! Imagine if that became a way of life. The biggest single group in Australian aviation, with the most money, the most clout, and the most to lose. Just imagine if they all took a stand on the blocked drains of industrial life! Instead of hoping the Jetstar, Qantaslink and VB pilots would do it for them. Imagine......

[Taildragger67]

Ummm.....

I've only dealt with small-bore drains on boats, so I'm possibly cruisin' for a flamin' here, but here goes...

Why not simply have a tap running into the sink when pouring ANYTHING into it? That way, grounds get broken up & separated and so have less chance of congealing and other things which curdle together, would have less chance of doing so. Then a blast with a jug or two of hot at the end of every service just to sluice it all out.

Maybe a shot of Domestos or similar (if it wouldn't react with the pipe material itself) with a jug of hot at the end of each sector?

AND make it part of EPs for CC, so they can be tested on it (as it has clearly become a safety, and not just service, issue).

[RedTBar]

Taildragger67,
I pour a few cans of coke down the drain but I don't know if thats an old wives tale or really does something.

As speedbird said with the sugar on the flight deck the company understands that humans are not lazy they are just fallible no matter how well trained they are.

I think a filter in the short term is thw way to but a better design is needed long term.The fact that a pilot said I'm not taking this aircraft in this condition is the start and the only thing the company will react to.

It's too easy for some to take the easy option when confronted with a problem and blame some group.We should be looking at cause and effect and that means we should be looking at how the drain is made and make it so that it doesn't block or is easy to clear.

[Taildragger67]

RedTBar,

I agree we shouldn't blame a particular group - please don't get me wrong, I am not 'blaming' CC by any means - merely suggesting something which could be implemented this afternoon.

But I agree, slightly longer term an easily-removable filter would seem to be able to prevent most things going down the gurgler before an aircraft full of punters does. :eek:

[teresa green]

All the talking in the world speedbird is not going to cover the facts THEY ARE IN WRITING. The tech logs are the aircrafts bible, ok. What is written in them is WHAT HAS HAPPENED on that particular flight, anything from a aircondioning problem to a APU problem to a dunny problem is recorded. One of the most recorded problems were blocked drains in the galleys. Ask any LAME. So if I can believe you, they blocked themselves, or they are badly designed. To my knowledge the coffee used to be in little paper bags which eventually perished and left coffee residue in the base of the coffee pot, that was chucked down the sink, eventually causing blockage along with any other liquid, milk etc. and small food particles. The blockage was known as a "hold Item" after the engineers cleared the drain, he wrote in his report that "coffee grains" had been removed from the offending drain and the drain was now servicable, this in turn is recorded on computer,(with all the other problems recorded)which in turn is read by the "signing out" engineer who states the A/C is servicable and the hold item is removed. My brother was a engineer in QF for 35 years, when I checked with him today about blocked drains in galleys his answer was unprintable, and I wont go there, but he was more interested in why the plate had cracked underneath, where the overflow had come from and how it got into the electronics on that 400 going into BKK, which is really the crux of the matter. That ship could have well gone into the drink if it had been another half an hour out, that speedbird is really the problem and until the problem is solved, I am sure the drains and what they contain are of great interest to all concerned.

[speedbirdhouse]

I was going to but I really cant be bothered...........

[lowerlobe]

It's like talking to your mother in law or trying to explain physics to a 2 year old.....pointless

[Blue Sky Baron]

Would it be far too simple to have the engineering department design a drain system that is big enough to cope with what goes down the drains as the current ones obviously cannot cater for what goes down them - for whatever reason. :uhoh:

All this bickering does not seem to have resolved anything. All crew and engineering need to work together to resolve this issue before somebody gets hurt. :(

BSB :ok:

[RedTBar]

Blue Sky Baron,
Thats what I have been trying to say but it doesn't seem to get through to some people.
if there was some kind of decent filter until a purpose design is finished it would do the job.
but it's just not the drains in the sinks that overflow as some people think it's also the ice draws and the water from other areas as well.

As lowerlobe said why is this all happening now?
why is the shield or drip tray cracking now?
is it because they are not changing it enough and has it got a certain life expectancy as with just about everything else because this should have happened before now.