ALTP test in a 1900

[fly1981]

Hi,
could anyone please give me some more info on doing an ATP test in a B1900. Aparently, the CAA have said that is does not qualify in terms of the new regs?and advise would be greatly appreciated!

[Beech19]

Did mine on a 1900, but it was a few years ago. Why don't you give them a call and get it straight from the horses mouth.

[Lt Gonville Bromhead]

Hi there,

Did my flight test on a 1900D on Friday and had my green book on Monday based on over 500 hours in the 1900D.

Good luck!

[south coast]

Why wouldnt it qualify?

On what grounds does it not qualify, I thought it only had to be a complex, multi-engined plane?

[Propellerpilot]

Not sure, maybe it depends under which Part you did your hours, a Part 121 Ops would count whereas a Part 135 wouldn't. LT Bromhead probably did his 500 hrs in a Multi Crew environment with CRM and the works-I think that is the point. You should then be able to do your ATP in any ME with true 2 crew ops but not a Captain with a dummy co-pilot.

That would make sense to me.

[Solenta]

61.07.3 (1)
MCC aircraft only.
Seems one ATPL has already slipped through the net.

[buck2rogers69]

Solenta,(CP)

I know you probably still dont have a 1900 rating, yet you know everything, but get your facts right mate, look in the limataions section of the 1900D and just have a nice read in there you will clearly discover something to the effect of, no Autopilot=2 PILOTS, will say again, 2 PILOTS.

The fact that you at solenta don't want people to test on it is BECAUSE you must then pay them an extra 1000$ a month or something!!! Since when does a company tell you that you can't have an ATPL, please man stop screwing people over, your time will come, just remember that the wheel does turn!!! you only putting com P1's with 1500Hrs TT in the left seat cos it is cheap and no others want to work for you, or you can't find them!!!!!

Speak to the people at CAA and see what they say, stop lying to people, If a 1900 can't be used we in for big S%^&T because that means only the E120 could be used or bigger, there will be no ATPL people around!!!!!

[Vlamgat]

Hey Boeta!!

Carefull, ya might get a royal spanking!! Dont be so aggressive!! If you dont like Solenta, go fly for someone else!! We are trying to answer a good question here!!

I think everyone is confused on this issue and again, we have to revert back to what the CAA's point of view is on this.

Part 61 is a huge mess and I believe untill the CAA starts denying one's right to test on a 1900 still stands!!

So chill out and if it does not work go and get yourself a E-120 rating and do some proper two crew flying!!

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway!!:8

[Lt Gonville Bromhead]

For clarification, the Limitations section of the Pilot Operating Manual for the Beech 1900D states at page 2-29:-

"SINGLE PILOT OPERATION ONLY"

then under the "Remarks and/or Exceptions" column states alongside "All passenger seats in excess of nine (9) must be rendered nonoccupiable by "DO NOT OCCUPY" seat belt tube assembly."

It is my interpretation of this wording that the 1900D must be operated by 2 crew if more than 9 seats are in use.

When I presented my application for registration of my flight test to the the SACAA I had a copy of the above mentioned page with me. The CAA chap at the desk wasn't even interested in it. He just cracked on and registered it. Good man!

[buck2rogers69]

Sorry for vlamgat, but got the multi-crew hours long ago, just stating a few facts with regards to whats happening at solenta, ie trying to screw a few fellows for some bucks, old story hey, penny wise pound foolish!!!

good to you for getting a ATPL fellow, and we know a 1900 is perfect learning curve for the rest of your career!!!! teaches you good principles, and SOP's!!!

[Lt Gonville Bromhead]

Thanks alot old chap.. I would hate people to think that my recent upgrade was nothing more than a vulgar "slipping through the net"...

[south coast]

So am I correct in thinking now that the SA way is the same as the JAR way.

For issue of an ATPL, one must have a Multi Pilot Airplane rating, with 500 hours of multi pilot time logged, plus the 1500 total time etc etc?

However, the initial type rating onto a Multi pilot plane can also double up as the ATPL skills test as it is normally conducted on a level D sim.

[Gooneybird]

I second that question. Could someone clarify this change in the law regarding ATPL/ALTP tests?

More Solenta bashing I see. Even though a single crew aircraft has to be operated with two crew under certain circumstances that doesn't make it a multi crew aircraft. A BN Islander flying IFR engaged in a commercial operation without an autopilot would still require two pilots. Under the old laws Solenta were well within their rights to have CPL captains left seat in B1900s. Under the new law I don't know since I haven't read through it but their insurers lawyers are obviously happy.

[Request FL510]

Ths is take out of the new Part 61:

Experience for Airline Transport Pilot Licence (aeroplane)
61.07.3 (1) An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (aeroplane)
must have completed, in aeroplanes, not less than 1500 hours of flight time of which -
(a) 500 hours must be on multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes that
are type certificated in accordance with FAA Part 25, JAA Part
25 or an equivalent certification standard, or
(b) 250 hours must be as pilot-in-command of which up to 150
hours may be pilot-in-command under supervision;
(c) 200 hours must be cross-country flight time, of which 100 hours
may be as co-pilot or pilot-in-command under supervision;
(d) 75 hours must be instrument time, of which not more than 30
hours may be acquired in an FSTD approved for the purpose;
and
(e) 100 hours shall be night flight time as pilot-in-command or as
co-pilot; and
(2) For the purposes of Sub-regulation (1), In the case of single-pilot
aeroplanes operated by two pilots according to operational
requirements as approved by the Commissioner, both pilots must have
successfully completed the multi-crew cooperation training as specified
in this Part;

Take note of the "OR" at the end of (1), as well as (2). IMHO if you can get an ATPL by testing on a 1900D, go for it.

The CAA have left another loophole for operators to utilize aircraft certificated for 1 pilot with 2 pilots. Keep in mind however that EASA does not accept the B1900 hours as MCC hours....make you think doesn't it.

[Solenta]

Please take the time to read the reference in Part 61 that I posted. It was me, as CP, that put the policy of recruiting pilots with Frozen ATPL's ( even for copilots ) on our B1900's to protect ourselves if the CAA suddenly on 1 Jan 2008, said you need an ATPL to fly as Captain on the B1900. ( btw, you cannot test for ATPL on a B1900 under ICAO Annex 1 nor under JAR FCL ) Solenta WANT our guys to get ATPL's. Of the 36 B1900 Captains we employ, over 70% have full ATPL's, done on the B1900. The FAA certify the B1900 under SFAR 41, and allow single pilot tests on the B1900D, certificated in the Commuter Category, but it still is NOT an MCC aircraft. Just because it requires 2 pilots over 9 seats. The SA CAA ( with whom Solenta worked closely with over the past 4 months, on Part 61 ) issued Part 61 to be gazzetted for 1 Jan 2008. It is now Law. The 26th Amendment ( Part 61 ) does not presently allow an ATPL test on a B1900. ( we are informed that there are moves afoot to change this, and I hope it does change, as there are HUGE implications for SA industry, if it doesn't change ). I suggest asking anyone at CAA Testing and Standards to confirm this. I was purely posting a quick reference to the information we have - straight from the 26th Gazzetted Amendment. ( worthwhile reading, since it is the LAW regarding Part 61. )

[Solenta]

Request FL510, you are entirely accurate with regard the EXPERIENCE required - a B1900 co-pilot who has undergone a MCC course, and operates 2 crew, with the Operator's approved Operations Manual stating that the aircraft is operated multi-crew, then he/she may credit 50% of the P2 time ( or 100% P1 as PICUS up to max 150hrs ) However, reading a little further on, it talks about the actual ATPL FLIGHT TEST requirement - this presently states that it should be conducted on a MCC aircraft as P1. We are also trying to get further clarification from the CAA, to see whether they will still allow ATPL flight tests on the B1900. Solenta certainly hope they will allow it.

[Request FL510]

What I cannot understand is, why the big hoohaa about this.

Solenta, both your and my references are the same. It is the "or" at the end of (1) that throws the spanner in the works and makes it easy for some pilots, DE's and operators to go and look for loopholes. Take away the "OR" and yur problem is solved - no ATP without the 500 hours on a MCC certificated aircraft.

Do we want to improve the standards in our aviation industry? I certainly hope so. I for one believe that the CAA is doing something right in taking the JAA route to require MCC training and experience for ATP.

One problem arises when the legislation contains (in my opinion) loopholes ("or"), which can be interpreted four different ways by four different CAA employees.

A second problem arises when one pilot who has flown a test on a 1900 gets his ATP issued by one licensing official, but the next guy doesn't get his from a second official. Hopefully one day all the guys manning the desks at the licensing section will do the same thing.

In the meantime, if raising the standards by this improves our industry, good. This means that pilots with hours for ATP will have to stay in the RH seat a while longer before getting their ATP's. Should not really be a problem for the guy that moves up from the 1900 to the ATR - 6 months maybe?

In the end we'll end up with better qualified pilots - provided all shortcuts are sorted out....

[south coast]

That is the same as under JAR, however, it says no wehere that the skills test must be done on a multi pilot type airplane.

Just that 500 hours of multi-crew time is required within the 1500.

I used my time on a 1900 and a King Air 200 towards the 500 hours multi pilot time as they were operated with 2 pilots due to the fact they were flown under part 121 which demands 2 pilots and also the customers for which we flew, UN and oil companies required 2 pilots for their insurance.

[QBY]

Hi Guys

This is probably a stupid question or maybe I'm a bit paranoid seeing that I will be doing my ATP renewal next week.

Will this 500hr Multi-crew requirement have an impact on an ATP renewal?

Thanks

Safe flying

[Lt Gonville Bromhead]

Regarding Request FL510's final point (post No. 14) that EASA do not except 1900 time towards MCC, I can add that I have obtained a Certificate from the British CAA exempting me from having to undergo a UK MCC course based on my time (exceeding 500 hours) on the 1900D. I had to exhibit a letter to the British CAA from my employer stating that they operated their 1900 aircraft under part 121 at all times using 2 crew. Just an additional thought..

[south coast]

I did the same and was also exempted the MCC.

[Solenta]

From www.caa.co.za (http://www.caa.co.za), click Acts and Regulations in the left column. the info below is an extract from the 26th amendment 61.07.3 (1)
I've read all the other amendments up to 31st amendment, and I can't find any further changes to this rule...

Skill test
61.07.3 (1) An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (aeroplane) must have demonstrated the ability to a Designated Flight Examiner competency to perform as pilot in-command in an aeroplane type-certified for a minimum crew of two pilots, under IFR,the procedures and manoeuvres as prescribed in Document SA CATS-FCL 61 for the
issue of an airline transport pilot qualification (aeroplane).
(2) The applicant must undergo the skill test referred to in Sub-regulation (1) within 60
months from the date of gaining a pass from all the required examinations. Provided that
in the case of the applicant holding a Commercial Pilot Licence (aeroplane) with an
instrument rating, the examinations referred to in Regulation 61.07.1 shall remain valid for
a period not exceeding five years from the date of expiry of the last renewal.
(3) The skill test may be used for the issue of the licence and an initial type rating or
proficiency check for revalidation of the type rating for the aeroplane used in the test, and
may be combined with the skill test for the issue of a multi-pilot type rating.

[Zoltan]

I visited the good old CAA last week, they reckon u can still only log 50% of your co-pilot time towards the total 1500hrs, and if u were a co-pilot on a B190 or BE20 u have to have a letter from your company stating a multi-crew operation before u can use 50% of that time towards the 1500.

Correct me if Im wrong but I dont see that anywhere in Part 61 ?

[Flyer14]

Provided that
in the case of the applicant holding a Commercial Pilot Licence (aeroplane) with an
instrument rating, the examinations referred to in Regulation 61.07.1 shall remain valid for
a period not exceeding five years from the date of expiry of the last renewal.

With regards to the above statement does that mean as long as you keep renewing your CPL/IR your subjects are still valid for 5 years?

I met a number of guys who've had their Co-pilot time counted in full toward their total time for ATP - it apparently depends on 'who' you get at the offices.:rolleyes:

[Q4NVS]

Will this 500hr Multi-crew requirement have an impact on an ATP renewal?

You don't do an ATP Renewal, you do an IF Renewal which keeps your ATP Current...

[QBY]

Thanks Q4NVS

You are right, I missed the obvious :\

[Flyer14]

In Subpart 7, 61.07.01

d)has, within the previous 60 months completed a multicrew cooperation course.

This obviously refers to something more substantial than a CRM course, but where do you get that in South Africa?

[Patches O'Houlihan]

I spoke to the CAA and they admit to mistake sin the new 61.

One of the testing standards officers mentioned that '61.07.2(1)(a) 500hrs multi-pilot ops' should actually read '500hrs PIC or PIC under supervision multi-pilot ops'. Surely this makes it irrelevant as under (b) only 250hrs PIC are required???

Can dual be counted under the 150hrs PICUS and therefore added towards the 250hr PIC requirement? As I understand it, there was/is no such thing as PICUS in RSA? Our logbooks make no allowance for it....

As for the test, it says the applicant must demostrate ability as PIC in a 2crew a/c. Can you test from the right seat of an ATR / EC120 / Dash8 (or even B737 for that matter) with only a P2 rating??

The CAA have only succeeded in confusing me more, and this isn't good for someone in my fragile, incontinent state. Some clarity would definitely not go unnoticed. thanks

:confused:patches

[Beech19]

I visited the good old CAA last week, they reckon u can still only log 50% of your co-pilot time towards the total 1500hrs, and if u were a co-pilot on a B190 or BE20 u have to have a letter from your company stating a multi-crew operation before u can use 50% of that time towards the 1500.



I wonder how it works for the guys flying P2 on a Caravan?? And how it's logged. Surely P2 on a B190 or BE20 is better experiance???:confused::confused:

[The777dream]

If its your lucky day at the CAA and slip thru then hey....you got lucky, dont think it means you dont deserve an ATP, many people have tested on smaller simpler twin's than a 1900!!! Who really know what happens at the CAA some days !!!
looks like "Solenta" has his ducks in a row about this one !!!
fly1981 get down to the CAA and ask them for yourself so it come from the horses mouth !!! if you still in the country......:hmm:

[Rob#]

Hi,

Does anyone know a place to do a Jaa type rating Beech 1900D accept from Farnbrough?
Thanks!

[Solenta]

Today an AIC was issued.
There is an exemption to do an ATPL flight test on "any multi-engine turboprop/turbojet with fully functional dual instrumentation"

The exemption will be in force until it becomes regulation.

This is good news, now you can all test for your ATPL again on any ME Turbo-prop such as B200 / B1900, as long as it is fitted with dual instumentation.

As I mentioned in previous posts, this is what industry tried to achieve BEFORE the law was published.

[fly1981]

Good news!

[Goffel]

Even better news...you can do it on a Caravan...as long as it has dual instruments.
Goffel

[I.R.PIRATE]

Always thought it had to be at least a twin Goffel, what gives? Proving you can manage the extremely low workload of a van is hardly inspiring confidence in one's ability to carry an ATP?

:bored: