Help! - Start from scratch avionics

[Warbo]

If you had a blank instrument panel, eg a rebuild project, for a high performance Cessna single, what would be your preference for avionics? Is the Garmin stack cheap enough second hand?

This is for mainly VFR, some IFR.

I have been scouring Airliners.net looking at different panel layouts, but have little idea of factors such as cost, reliabilty, etc between brands.

These are the only decide things so far:
1. Autopilot will be STEC 50
2. Must have 2 comms
3. Will have HSI linked to GPS of some sort

Any help/advice appreciated.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Warbo

You can't have a "some IFR" panel. If you are going to go IFR then you need to have a safe IFR panel.

Here's a couple of suggstions for you based on my experience.

1) Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Comm + decent Nav/Com, or 2 x Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Comm, or Garmin 530 GPS/Nav/Comm + Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Com (if you are feeling rich)
2) ADF
3) Decent transponder (Garmin?)
4) Decent audio panel (Garmin?)
5) Something in the panel that will run Jeppesen FliteDeck wired to a 530/430
6) The usual standard flight instruments - air driven AH/DG
7) Electric AH with ball (removes the need for a T&B and frees up a spot on the panel)
8) Shadin digital fuel flow
9) EDM-700 all cyclinder engine monitor
10) electric chronometer
11) intercom

If it were me, I would go for a 16W 430 and a 10W 430 and skip the 530, provided I had something in the panel to run a moving map like Jep FliteDeck.

If I had room in the panel I would also panel mount a Garmin 296/396/496 as battery powered backup to the 430s.

Dr :8

[Warbo]

Thanks FTDK,

-what does 16w & 10w mean?
-never heard of flitedeck, will investigate.

Agree with your correction on IFR panel. Apart from the avionics, I would have thought 2 AH's would be without question to say the least.

Not so sure about the engine monitor. I am yet to find anyone who has saved any money, lives, cylinders, etc by using an engine monitor. (Mind you I don't cast a big net). A JP instruments fuel flow monitor - I can see the sense in that.

Anyone got anything against bendix? Do bendix have a nav/com as good as garmin's 430/530?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

-what does 16w & 10w mean?
You can get Garmin 430/530 with 10 watt (W) VHF or 16 watt (W) VHF (ie 430a/530a). I have no idea of the difference in price but more power in the transmitter would be useful in my part of the world where VHF can be marginal at times.

-never heard of flite deck, will investigate.
Jeppesen FliteView/FliteDeck are electronic flightbag and moving map programs. If you look in the last couple of pages of the "More photos" thread, I have posted some photos of these running on a tablet computer I have on the yoke of the Bonanza. You can get gear to run this stuff that fits into the panel - great for IFR, and useful for VFR.

Agree with your correction on IFR panel. Apart from the avionics, I would have thought 2 AH's would be without question to say the least.
Yep

Not so sure about the engine monitor. I am yet to find anyone who has saved any money, lives, cylinders, etc by using an engine monitor. (Mind you I don't cast a big net). A JP instruments fuel flow monitor - I can see the sense in that.

Hopefully Chimbu Chuckles will see this and take over. He is the guru on all-cylinder engine monitors. I would put one in the Bo if I owned it.

You can also get some nice EFIS panels that replace the standard flight instruments etc. Been searching on Google to find the brand. CC could answer that also as he is having it installed in his Bo.

While I am spending your money - it occurred to me that some sort of TCAS would also be useful.

Dr :8

[morno]

Or you could just install a Collins Proline 21 Suite, :}

[Chimbu chuckles]

Oh warbo, warbo, warbo....no engine monitor?

Just put a fecking engine monitor in it and accept my written assurance that having flown with one you'll never want to go without again...it are dat simple.

If it was within my budget I would be replacing all my fuel gauges/MP/RPM/volts/amps etc with an EDM 930...maybe next year.:{

http://www.jpinstruments.com/edm_930.html

Ok clean sheeting a decent Cessna single (206/210/182rg?)...what a fun and exciting project.

One assumes funds are not unlimited and you want great value at a reasonable cost.

GPS/Nav/com

1/. Garmin G340 audio panel.
2/. OHC G430. Personally I don't think we'll ever see WAAS in Oz but a 430 is upgradeable to 430W so an each way bet.

Alternatively OHC KLN90B or KLN 94 IFR GPS + KX155a/165a navcom. I have a G340/KLN90b/KX155/Icom setup in my Bo and am happy with it. I don't like the idea of NAV/COM/GPS in one box that you can lose in 1 hit.

The reason I chose the G340 audio panel is it enables rear seat pax to chat via intercom without the pilot/copilot hearing unless they want to push a button and join in and music similarly...I have a jackplug in my panel for a MP3/apple player thingo.

My set up
http://www.fototime.com/{02974A8A-777B-41DC-A7D7-FEEB33228D76}/picture.JPG

3/. Icom VFR second com.

4/. Garmin transponder. (on my to do list).

I'll leave ADF/HF to you and you already have an A/P picked out.

Instrumentation wise.

Look at the Aspen avionics links below and the decision will be made. An EFD1000 ATP costs about the same as an OHC mechanical HSI (10-13k) but gives you ADAHRS/Flight Director/colour moving terrain map/normal map/HSI/ IAS and ALT tapes/altsel and alert/IAS and Alt bugs for Vref/minima/VSI with emergency standby power (minimum 30 minutes via an internal rechargeable battery), standby GPS and is software driven so updates are just a SD ram card away...will interface with all A/Ps, GPS. GPSS roll steering is incorporated as well as annunciators for GPS approaches.

Not to mention traffic/terrain/weather...:ooh:

Or for close to the same $ (except you'd have to think OHC HSIs are about to become VERY CHEAP) you can get a KCS55A with a course bar:ugh:

ALL solid state and with no moving parts!!!!

http://www.aspenavionics.com/pdfs/Cessna_Pilot_Association_Jan_08.pdf

http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.php/products/efd1000-atp/

Stick an EFIS backup AH (I can't remember the company but Jabawocky has the details- non certified but very good and cheap) and put the steam driven A/H (required by CASA regs:ugh: ) in the co-pilot panel...or the aft cabin fecking bulkhead.

Edit: I found the non certified EFIS backup A/H...Dynon D10A.:ok:

http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D10A_intro.html

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Regretfully, you cannot retro the G1000 kit. You can get the G600

Garmin G600 (https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=153&pID=6427)

Still need the avionics. A couple of 430Ws, an autopilot , transponder and engine monitor plus some steam gauge backups and you are on your way to being very broke:}

[Chimbu chuckles]

You'll notice all my recommendations fit into the current 3 inch holes in your panel...a big money saving plus...and do everything the G600/1000 do at a small fraction of the cost.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Warbo

Almost forgot - the other thing I would like to have in my panel that I don't have is a Stormscope/Strikefinder!

Dr :8

[Miraz]

FTDK - Can you not rig up some way of painting the StormScope data onto one of your various map displays?

Shame the G1000 setup can't be retrofitted, but I suspect that it would be cost prohibitive even if available.....anyone care to put some estimated budgets around the other options?

http://www.miraz.com/gallery/d/7118-2/IMGP3352.jpg

http://www.miraz.com/gallery/d/7115-2/IMGP3351.jpg

[Gear Down & Welded]

Have flown a 172RG with the D10 as a back-up AH in it. Bloody wonderful! If only it were certified then it'd be great as a backup AH for IFR twins.

A Jabiru I've seen has the bigger version of the D10 in it... D100 I think? As well as the little Dynon EMS, pilots rekon it's great!

Local school is due to get a G1000 C182 soon, that will be a nice piece of kit.

Can recommend (from a pilots perspective) Garmin S34 or S32 (I think that's it.) only difference is one's a nav/comm the others just a comm, beauty is that it allows you to monitor the freq selected as stby as well as use the active (priority given to the active) makes it like two comms in one! GNS430 is also a good buy, but that's personal opinion because I like the Garmin display over the King one.

[185skywagon]

The Aspen PFD basic unit lists for around US$5900 at this stage. I reckon I'll be getting one for the 185 when they get to certified stage. Cheaper than replacing AH, DG and Vac pump, at the same time.
The GMA340 audio panel is good unit with excellent intercom, as Chimbu has stated. I have one in my machine. Squelch circuitry is great and individual on each input(although, not adjustable on each inputs).


185.

[Chimbu chuckles]

If I was going for a Garmin PFM box (and I agree they are excellent-just not enough redundancy unless you have two) as a stand alone unit with a second com I'd actually go the G530/530W over a 430...nice big screen so the freq boxes doesn't reduce the moving map part to near useless.

Bigger screen means bigger $ unfortunately and to some extent the ND in the Aspen makes a bigger screen PFM box redundant.

You can of course buy the more basic EFD1000 Pro or pilot and upgrade later.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

You can always rely on getting a diversity of opinion in here (or on anything to do with aviation for that matter).

Having flown with both the Garmin 430 and the Garmin 530, and given that the graphics of both is pretty basic compared with what is available in other moving map gear, I wouldn't waste my money on a 530. Too many other cool goodies that I could buy with the difference in $$!

Dr :8

[Warbo]

Hmmmmmmmmmm... So many options!

Initially my thoughts were:

Avionics stack:

1. Bendix audio panel
2. Bendix/King GPS similar to chucks (already have one withe the red display - can't remember model though)
3. Bendix Nav/Com
4. Bendix Com
5. Bendix ADF
6. GME UHF

Instruments:
1. Standard 6 but replace DG with HSI
2. No second VOR
3. ADF needle
4. STEC autopilot
5. Second AH
6. Fuel flow (which will now be EDM 700, thanks to the insistance of no one in particular...:})

Now these fancy looking Garmins and Flitedeck are looking the goods

Second GPS? Maybe Satloc (ag marking GPS) over on the RHS panel

Now I don't know what to do...

If money was not a limiting factor, I would go Garmin audio, 530, 430, Garmin txpdr, King ADF, UHF + Aspen Pro (when it comes out - that is the sh!t). I heard that Garmin sold overhauled 430's for a fraction of the cost of a new one, but I found out today that they no longer do it because they were selling more of them than the new ones.

Garmin 530 - USD$10000 - new
Garmin 430 - USD$6200 - new

Obviously the goal of a 'start from scratch' panel is to make it neat and not looking like things have been added as an afterthought.

Dr, I never considered a stormscope.

I appreciate everyone's comments so far. Keep 'em coming!:ok:

[VH-XXX]

Copy off this perhaps.

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~njah1/dash.jpg

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ahh a Bendix King man:ok:

That 'red screen' GPS is a KLN89...next came the 90B and then the 94...interestingly the 90B is a more powerful navigator but the 94 is colour and while not quite as loaded with features is a little more user friendly.

Bendix King built the 90b and 94s to be pin for pin identical to the 89 so you can buy an OHC KLN94 with the nice colour screen and just slide it into the rack and go saving substantial cash on installation. Not certain but an OHC 94 would be about $2500-$3000. Bendix King have suggested that a WAAS upgrade could be in the 94s future. That is about what I paid for my OHC 90B 4 or 5 years ago...the 90B when new was considered a top shelf/feature rich and very expensive unit (like 10k new)...then along came Garmin.

The air data computer in the EFD1000 will fill out all those empty TAS/Wind etc pages in the KLN nicely.

Personally I am not into big moving maps and 18in wide PFDs...I actually don't like the G1000 cockpits at all. The aspen gear pushes all my buttons though:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Warbo

It would be interesting to conduct a straw pole in here of people who are qualified to fly GPS RNAV Apprs using both the Bendix/King GPS and the Garmin 430/530, to see what there preference would be.

I'll kick it off - GARMIN EVERYTIME!

Dr :8

PS: I'm with Chuckles on the G1000. I wonder how long it would take to have one of those big screens replaced when it suddenly goes blank - and at what cost.

[Warbo]

Good point, Dr. We had a screen that is roughly 8"x6" replaced for a satloc - $4,500!!!!!!

I am with chuck about the G1000. Looking on airliners.net at the new 172/182s: The model/option with normal instruments and a neat avionics stack looks heaps more attractive than the G1000 job. It seems to me that the latest cessnas are trying to put pilots into the airline flight deck from ab-initio, which is fair enough, but not what most of us are after. A bit OTT, to use an acronym that seems to be popular amongst some.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Here we go again , GARMIN can do no wrong.... when we all know they are really just overpriced, no longer state of the art and monopolistic with indifferent customer service...

Take a squint at these - should give 'em a run for their money for under 10 Grand! - presuming the evil empire don't acquire the company first.

http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.php/products/efd1000-pro/

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj238/Tandate/EFD1000Pro.gif

[Capt Fathom]

Take a squint at these ... Aspen Avionics

As previously pointed out by Chuckles! :ok:

Focus people, focus! Follow the thread now! :ugh:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"As previously pointed out by Chuckles!"

No, Capt, in acutal fact it was pointed out by the Dr. I just had to refer to the Chuckler for the details.

"You can also get some nice EFIS panels that replace the standard flight instruments etc. Been searching on Google to find the brand. CC could answer that also as he is having it installed in his Bo."

Try to keep up, man!

Dr :8

[Capt Fathom]

Sorry Doc. for giving Chuck the credit for your suggestion.

I must focus in future! :uhoh:

[Warbo]

Nearly finished...

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n153/dwarburton/100_0496a.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n153/dwarburton/100_0497a.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n153/dwarburton/100_0507a-1.jpg

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

What the f...!

G530/430 in a 185? I hope you plan to do some serious IFR in that thing Warbo!

Dr :8

[VH-XXX]

You'll be lucky if that thing takes off with all that gear! Impressive!

[Horatio Leafblower]

You have built my dream aircraft - congratulations - nice job.

:ok:

[sprocket check]

Warbo, you didn't build that, did you?

Who's the hands behind that work of art?

[Warbo]

I hope you plan to do some serious IFR in that thing

IFR is certainly the intention (but go easy on the serious bit)

[Warbo]

Warbo, you didn't build that, did you?

Who's the hands behind that work of art?


No, the man with the hands is certainly not me. It is his second 185 rebuild. He kept the first.

I just get to do the fun stuff like picking a colour & scheme or the avionics etc!

[sprocket check]

He's the welding guy isn't he?

btw, I noticed the Aspen is now certified, so yep I guess it's all on for IFR!

Sexy!

Oh and so is your 185 ;)

[Warbo]

Yeah that's him.

It was this thread that is to blame for the Aspen! I have also read about it on the Cessna Pilots website and the yanks all love them. A few glitches at the start but most of these have been ironed out now. There is still a minor problem with the built in GPS roll steering but it is expected to be fixed with the next update. Looking in the manual, it really can do some cool stuff.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Warbo, are you able to have an AP with Alt hold in the 185 these days (STec?)?

My recollection is that you could not have it with the Cessna 400 gear that they originally came with.

Dr :8

PS: Yeah, yeah, so what if I am jealous of that panel!

[Jabawocky]

Forkie has a hard on and ready to change camps! :}

Love the panel!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Oh damn...I think I jus' came in my pants.:{

Love the EDM/Aspen/G530/430...want ya gonna use the ADF for:ok:

[Cloud Basher]

Latest Aerotrader has the following (all certified and in $US)

Garmin G600 (EFIS/MFD)
GMA-340 (Audio)
GNS530W (Comm/Nav/ILS/IFR WAAS GPS)
GNS430W (Comm/Nav/ILS/IFR WAAS GPS)
GTX-327 (Transponder)
SAE-5-35 (Encoder)
Installed for $US62,995

ASPEN EFD1000 PRO
Installed for US$14,500
combine with
GNS-430W
GTX-327
GI-106A
Also $14,500 installed. Add another comm etc as CC and FTDK advise above (and Warbo has done on the C185) and you would have an awesome IFR semi glass capable panel for around US$30-35K, a nice clean sheet design, very modern and redundant.

Cheers
CB

[Warbo]

are you able to have an AP with Alt hold in the 185 these days (STec?)?

The STEC 50 & 30 are the weapon of choice for 180/185's in the US. You can't put the electric trim on them however.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Ultralight instructor and Welder, eh?

At least he knew his limitations (for a change) and brought in plenty of qualified blokes to do the work! :}

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Its interesting to go back and read this thread from the start!

Warbo, could you be the first person to have actually taken notice of advice given on Ppr**ne and acted on it?

That's gotta be a first!

Dr :8

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

From a recent post on the Beechtalk site -

My IAS dropped to about 60kts and the AI on the aspen pro 1000 fripped to a 90 degree bank angle. No problems with the auto pilot though because it is run off the original AI. flipping on the pitot heat immediately restored IAS to 150kts but aspen Ai was still in 90 bank angle

Could be a few cliches to iron out with the Aspen gear!

Good to see you have kept a steam driven AH Warbo, just in case!

Dr :8

[Warbo]

From the CPA forum, a list of answers from Aspen regarding some of there common problems:

Since I am nearing the end of my very expensive entire panel make-over, I also pumped Aspen full of questions. I have arranged their answers so they match Mike's earlier comments (makes it easier to follow). Here are their answers regarding some issues:

Reliability:
Quality and reliability issues are being worked daily. EFD1000 factory production, yields through final test, and field reliability have all improved tremendously as a result of various hardware/software refinements and process changes made over the first 500 units built. Additional improvements will be made as we gain more operational experience and data.

Heat:
Heat issue resolved with latest hardware/software mod status.

GPS not coasting:
GPSS refinements will be incorporated in Version 2.0 software release scheduled for 2Q2009.

VLOC disables GPSS:
GPSS refinements will be incorporated in Version 2.0 software release scheduled for 2Q2009.

GPSS tracking poor:
GPSS refinements will be incorporated in Version 2.0 software release scheduled for 2Q2009.

Attitude depends on airspeed:
This will be mitigated to some degree with Version 2.0 software scheduled for release in 2Q2009. It will incorporate a more robust algorithm for computing attitude. Version 2.1 software scheduled for release in 3Q2009 will add GPS aiding, effectively resolving this issue.

Accuracy:
A field calibration procedure for the EFD1000 air data sensors is under consideration. In any case, both the mechanical altimeter and the EFD1000 altimetry should be within the tolerances specified in FAR Part 43, Appendix E. Please note that these tolerances are positive and negative and that they increase with altitude. For example, the acceptable tolerance at 10,000 feet is +/- 80 feet. At this altitude, the mechanical altimeter could have an error of - 50 feet and the EFD1000 altimetry could have an error of + 50 feet. This would appear to the flight crew as a 100 foot difference between the two altimeters. Nevertheless, these errors would still be within the tolerances specified in FAR Part 43, Appendix E.

Calibration:
The procedures in Section 10.5 of the EFD1000 installation manual have yielded acceptable magnetometer calibration in nearly all of the installations completed to date (over 1,100). However, magnetic interference in the vicinity of the RSM will often cause unacceptable results. Eliminating or mitigating the magnetic interference, or relocating the RSM will permit acceptable magnetometer calibration.

I wish all manufacturers would be so willing to discuss their products, and engage in meaningfull communication with their clientele, as Aspen. Kudos to them!

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Hi all,

I also have seen 2 aircraft with big big problems with the Aspen installation (uncontrolled aeros from the beast - makes for funny videos!) - at first we thought it was related to angle of attack issues (skydiving turbine) but I have just recently been told that the problem has finally been nailed down to how far south in the southern hemisphere we are. Apparently it can't (well couldn't - there is supposed to be a fix available/coming) handle the latitude down this far and the software freaked out.

Hopefully once this is sorted then it's rightful place as a good value alternative will be able to be proven.

UTR

[Tinstaafl]

A Navajo I fly (in the US) has nice equipment. It's had one of those Panther mods so not only have the avionics been upgraded but it gained 350hp engines + a VG kit giving more speed and a gain of over two hundred pounds to MTOW.

Its avionics include:

Garmin 530
Garmin 430
Avidyne EX500 MFD which shows nav data including airways, XM satellite weather downlink, traffic alert uplink from ATC, stormscope and weather radar. Traffic alert shows on both Garmins too.
Glass HSI which has some nice functions built in
Mechanical flight director
Shadin fuel computer
Garmin audio panel - and I think I found cockpit and cabin audio-in jacks the other day. Just never noticed them before :O
Garmin GTX-330 TXDR (this is what receives the traffic uplink)
Garmin GTX-327 TXDR (for reduncancy. I use the various counters & timers on both TXDRs for flight time, approaches, alternate tank use, night flight if there's a day/night mix, and the like)
Control column IDENT, COMM select and clear detected lightning functions

and the owner just had a JPI EDM-760 installed to replace the single point digital display EGT on my recommendation. The EDM-760 is a twin engine version of the single engine EDM-700. I showed the owner the ROP vs LOP fuel flow difference & explained why an EDM is beneficial. The price of fuel was around US$5.50 /USG or more at the time so the savings were worth it. 185-190 kts @ 44USG/hr vs 170-175 kts @ 29USG/hr. No contest for his typical 1.5 hr routes.

The aircraft's POH approves up to 50 deg LOP but I wasn't comfortable doing that for any length of time without decent engine monitoring. The OEM T&P gauges would run uncomfortably hot while leaning - so much I'd lean with the cowl flaps fully open. Once LOP temps would be about the same as 100 deg ROP but I was was never sure about the accuracy. With the EDM it's a whole new world! Love the LOP 'Lean Find' function so much I've set it as the default leaning action.

Oh! And it's airconditioned! Lovely in Florida's summer.

[goin'flyin]

Warbo, SLC is certainly looking 1000% nicer/healthier than last time i saw it, which was after its little roll-over on the Sydney northern beaches. I bet plenty of work has gone into that. Nice job...:ok:

[185skywagon]

Love the EDM/Aspen/G530/430...want ya gonna use the ADF for
Chuck, what else are ya gunna listen to the AM wireless with????

Warbo, fantastic job.
Are you going to the flyin?? Would love to have a good look over SLC, especially the Aspen.

me.

[Warbo]

Unfortunately it won't be ready by then. It was always going to be close, but we have now resigned to the fact that it wont be happening.

[NFK4X4]

I fly a TN Debonair and the answer to a new panel is something like this.
Design, think about it, design again. Fly in your mind, buy the equipment you want while you are designing, then think some more. Finally strike a deal with a reputable avionics installer. Work on the design with them and then find a good metal shop to make the panel. Again work on the design and finally commit to the process.
Be patient because an install is going to take up to 2 1/2 months. Make sure you pickle your engine or take measures for corrosion while the bird is on the ground.
Then watch the process unfold and be ready to make decisions that will affect your design in the air. Ergonomics!
If I could post an image of my wip of my G600 install I would, but for some reason I can't find the manage attachments...
NFK4X4