Federation involvement at Jetstar and one pilot union

[Lawrie Cox]

Due to some misinformation published on this site the Federation wants to state clearly and unambiguously our position at Jetstar, also our position as to one union for all pilots in Australia.

First, the Federation has had and continues to have about a third of the pilots employed at Jetstar as members. Our involvement goes back to the days of Impulse and Oxley Airlines. We successfully put an end to the sham employment arrangements that were in place at that time. We did this through many hearings in the AIRC and courts. Ultimately the shareholder process was removed.

Shortly after this the 717 arrived and during one of our visits Capt Chris Manning (AIPA Pres) arrived and also addressed the pilots. He advised that whilst they would assist there was no coverage by AIPA and the Federation did have coverage. Unfortunately that acknowledgement was rescinded when McGowan sold out and Impulse became part of the QF group. This has effectively restricted union organisation to this day. It is ‘spilt milk’ but if AIPA had stuck to its own area then we would have had better organisation in Impulse and now Jetstar.

In recent years we have had involvement on behalf of our members at Jetstar through individual matters and occasionally more general matters.

We acknowledge that the in-house committee (IPC/JPC/JPA) have over the years attempted to do the right thing for their fellow pilots. Occasionally we have disagreed on the best direction.

In the end it has always been the Jetstar pilots who determine their future. We have always respected this. It is why we became a party bound to the current agreement certified (PR963622) under the Workplace Relations Act on 6th October 2005.

In our battles with the Company they have constantly used the Committee as their defence for not resolving matters or making decisions that affect our members. The current simulator case is an example.

We met with the Company last week after many of our members followed advice and forwarded the representation letter to the Company. The meeting lasted 1.5 hours and they advised in writing the next day that no delay was acceptable to the Company on the deal proposed. Accordingly we have advised members of the deficiencies we have identified and would like to see fixed in the proposal. It is fair to say that the money has moved significantly although not enough for some. However, it’s the conditions to be applied over the next five years that will impact. That is why we have advocated a no vote.

It is still not for the Federation or anyone else for that matter to make the determination on the Jetstar pilots that is for the Jetstar pilots alone.

The proposed agreement being voted down will lead to further talks and no change to the existing agreement which does not expire till September this year. We will be actively involved in any further talks because the Company has acknowledged the pilot requests for Federation representation. However if the vote gets up then the agreement is in place for five years.

We have offered to sit with AIPA reps at the same table to sort this out to get the best deal for Jetstar pilots but the response has been deafening in its silence.

Pilot Unions in Australia

The Federation position is clear - we want to see one pilot body in Australia but it takes all parties to be involved.

The outcome of the court case only provides an extension to AIPA rules in respect to Jetstar, Eastern/Sunstate and Qantas Freight.

IT DOES NOT PROVIDE EXCLUSIVE COVERAGE FOR AIPA.

This means that the issues of competition continue.

The Federation wants too see a positive situation but that will only come from one body that provides equity between the pilot flying in General Aviation and the pilot flying an A380, or the 737/A320 and the Helicopter pilot, or the 777 and the Flight instructor.

The one thing that stops us today is the individuals that refuse to allow such rights to professional pilots no matter what part of the industry you come from.

The Federation has offered a proposal covering all pilots to AIPA on several occasions. This has been knocked back each time. If pilots want this then they should get the leadership of all groups to recognise the requirement to respect a professional pilot (irrespective of the Company they work for or the type of flying they do).

As Australian professional pilots let’s park the egos and get it moving. There can be many opportunities at this time of shortage to establish benchmarks for our collective futures.
We see and hear a lot about unity.
Question is do you want to be part of it or not?

Lawrie Cox
Manager Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[Capt Kremin]

The Federation has offered a proposal covering all pilots to AIPA on several occasions. This has been knocked back each time.


What was the details of the proposal, Lawrie?

[Lawrie Cox]

Capt K

There were several versions but the basics (please note this is without prejudice to the Federation) related to councils with a Master Executive Council. This enables the group to determine their individual policy direction related to contract and conditions. We also proposed group areas such as Flight Instruction; Aero Medical; Helicopter; Regional airlines where company below say 50-80; Qantas International; Qantas Domestic; Virgin Blue Domestic; Virgin Blue international; Jetstar Domestic; Jetstar International; Eastern; Sunstate; REX; National Jet; Night Freight; Tiger; Alliance.

All would be dependent on a practical number for formation of a council. We also stated for it to work would see both AIPA and AFAP to disappear as entities in their own right.

The funding issue of the overall group as regards Technical needs to be addressed.

The real problem comes down to voting strength and capped terms on the major office bearers (no one group to dominate the positions) to which the card vote structure of IFALPA maybe an option.

The above has been rejected repeatedly as there is no recognition of the non airline group. The Federation position is clear that they are professional pilots and we should be encouraging our future rather than distance ourselves.

Hope that gives a simple answer to the question.

Lawrie Cox

[genex]

well this certainly gives all those saying that "AIPA has changed" a chance to ensure that AIPA shows its interest in ALL pilots.

I have spent years flying all over the world to places most AIPA members have never heard of and they never once contacted me to see if I needed coverage as an Australian International Pilot. The AFAP did, from day one.

That aside, I am more than happy to join an enlarged union if it covers all pilots and allows individual pilot groups to determine their own future. That is democracy after all.

Now the next move is in AIPAs court. I await the outcome............

[apache]

Don't care WHAT the union is called, as long as they FINALLY grow some F**king BALLS, and stand up to management!
No more of this "ok we'll talk to them" crap, which then comes back as "let's just see what they decide next month" BULLSH!T

When the EBA states a date for a rise etc... ENFORCE IT!!!!!!! it is WRITTEN in black and white, what is there for the board to "discuss"??? I reckon they go into these board meetings, talk about how the union caved again, then piss themselves laughing for the next 1/2 hour whilst drinking moet or chivas.

i'm not bitter. I'm not bitter. I'm not bitter .....

[I'm Driving]

Ok genex. But Until recently (unless you worked for Qantas),AIPA couldn't represent you anyway. There was a well known court case that was talked about on this forum, I believe.

[VH-JJW]

Excellent post, thanks Lawrie.

I believe the USALPA and BALPA models work well and could serve as templates for AUSALPA (call it APA - Australian Pilots Association) to become the ONLY union representing professional pilots in Australia.

Question is - will enough people in the right places recognise the time has come?

[newsensation]

Lawrie why don't the AFAP put your plan into action, you might be surprised of the number of Qantas pilots who would join a more relevant union, i have noticed that the AFAP seemed to have picked up their game now they have a little competition...:rolleyes:

[OpsNormal]

I would really like to see someone identifiable from the top of the AIPA pile reply to this thread so that the average Australian pilot might learn the stance of the AIPA on this matter.

I suspect Lawrie may well have hit the nail squarely upon its head when he alluded to one of the main issues in play:

...let’s park the egos...

I certainly hope that any selfish notions that a continued situation of fractured industry representative bodies being a good thing for any of us are dispelled quickly and finally and that there is a greater good to be achieved with a single representative body.

Lawrie, I wish you the best with this, but you do need to start raising the AFAP bar higher too if you really want to take advantage of these times here and now. You must build strength through unity and presence.... and that starts at the grass roots of GA. Here's a couple of reasons right off the top of my head, I'm sure others could help both join the dots and expand the list further...

1. No GA pilot ever sees an AFAP rep walk through their employers door "just to check on how things are going in their workplace"- even once a year.

You know, that by seeing to be seen in the workplace (and a little sabre-rattling from time to time), that alone would be enough to raise the awareness level of the people employed in GA and it follows that a person thinks (not misguidedly I hope) that joining an organisation that will do its best for them is a good thing to do, then it will happen.

2. Start enforcing those that are roped-in to the award to pay it.

Sort of goes hand in hand with visiting workplaces there Lawrie. You might find that there is an alternate view on the meaning of the word "collective" held by this government that differs markedly from the previous. I would implore you to explore that further....

3. Who cares what it is called, but I know for certain that it must be capable and willing to represent (not just advise) all members at all levels of this industry. Yes, those at the higher end of the payscales will be certainly helping to support and foster the lower end, but look at it this way... It's altruism and mentorism without getting your hands dirty. By helping the lower end of the industry you will be ensuring that the industry as a whole benefits from greater pay and working conditions across the board for all.

That can only come from one thing.... Everyone pulling in the ONE direction and at the ONE time. Mr AIPA and Mr AFAP, do you think you can manage that together?

All I will say that if you can manage that together, then you will become stronger than in your wildest dreams. The strength lays in the total being greater than the sum of the parts.:ok:

Regards,

OpsN.;)

[Capt Wally]

A lot of excellent posts here about a very sensitive subject.

The word "UNION" or "UNITY" is pretty basic in it's meaning. Without TOTAL unity then there will always be a 'leak' in the ability to unify the masses. Remember the employers in any field of employment almost rely on the fact that humans rarely become totally united in anything. You will always find some that simply feel different.
The big boys at the top love the fractured nature of the human workers desires as far as getting things such as T&C's advanced. So as long as we gain momentum here and get total unity thru the efforts of some powerful people/unions then we have a fighting chance. We've seen tactics that nearly bought this country to it's knees, that plan of action we can ill afford to let happen again. We need to do it smarter these days. The so called 'boffin's at the top didn't get there thru idle threats, they got there thru being clever,ruthless whether we like it or not.

'opsnormal' puts together a good post as others have shown also.

Go forth & mulitply, those words couldn't be better said in this case.

Stay strong guys, the pilot world now turns in a different direction, but sheeez, hang on ! :)


CW:)

[chimbu warrior]

I'm all for it.

Ops Normal for President.

[Spaz Modic]

:rolleyes: Lawrie mentioned the removal of egos.
Impossible, in the case of Quaintarse. :cool:
The late Captain ******** Westwood led the charge out of the AFAP on an ego trip, basically on the premise that the QF pilots didn't produce stools that stank.:uhoh:
If pilots were such geniuses, each would realise that unity through one union is logical and powerful. Unfortunately they are just as stupid as the rest of the community. :E

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Good post Lawrie. You have clarified what many have argued hasn't happened. A solid united stance is a must from a 380 captain to a 152 instructor. I'm crossing my fingers and toes that this document goes down and gets filed where it belongs. If this happens, we have the best chance ever to refresh our thinking and start again. Properly.

Doug.

[Pinky the pilot]

Ease up a bit if you please Spaz Modic!:= Tarring all Qantas Pilots with the same brush is a bit unfair, don't you think? A bit like saying that all young low-time CPLs are prepared to work for virtually nothing, which of course is total nonsense!

The last thing needed in this industry is to get anyone in the various groups of Pilots offside and/or continue the us and them situation that has existed in recent years.

Without TOTAL unity then there will always be a 'leak' in the ability to unify the masses. Remember the employers in any field of employment almost rely on the fact that humans rarely become totally united in anything.

Thank you Capt Wally!:ok:

[Intenleftblank]

Something that all might be interested in ( I'm back form the publishers without being proof read) I'm told that the J* pilots are indeed voting via their own forum about this very issue -who and what to join and how in would be intergrated. It is always been in the best interest for all to band together, the ego's need to be left behind:ugh:

[Pundit]

Airline Management has the pilot movement exactly where they want it. Divided. And the likelihood of any change to that in the short to medium term seems highly improbable.

In September 1981, the then AFAP President, Captain Fitzsimons remarked, “It is certainly in the best interests of all pilots to be represented by one industrial body, For many reasons it is also an advantage to present one concerted view on aviation matters to the rest of the industry and to other interested parties”. In November of the same year the AIPA President, Captain Westwood, noted that the TAA contender for the 1982 AFAP presidency had, “pledged his support for a restoration of relationships with the Qantas group”.

And here we are in January 2008. Divided!

With the formation of AIPA, Qantas pilots were understandably inclined to turn inwards and attend to their own priorities. A cosiness developed between the Company and Association that became unhealthy. A pathway from union leadership to operations management was established and the Company controlled the agenda. But AIPA are now imprisoned by new circumstances – the dynamics of semiautonomous business units that are responsible for their own profitability. The company / association relationship loyalty shown in the past has been dismissed by Qantas in the interest of shareholder value and personal bonuses!

The economic consequences of the semiautonomous business unit have been experienced by the Qantas pilot group who were ‘displaced’ when their high-wage jobs were transferred to cheaper labour. This transformation, and the AIPA president’s gross strategic error not to embrace pilots in the new business units (made almost immediately prior to his move to management), more than anything else is what has led to the declining power base of AIPA. The deleterious impact on pilot wages and conditions is likely to continue for many years to come.

But the economic effects are inseparable from the real world consequences. Global industry competition for cost advantage will not slacken and, not unexpectedly, is the rationale for the Qantas executive promoting fierce competition among the business units. It is this real world behaviour that has effectively weakened the positioning of the Association. If one semiautonomous business unit’s workers are prepared to accept lower wages and conditions, the jobs will move to them! Taken to the ultimate conclusion, all jobs will move to them.

For ordinary Qantas pilots, independent and insular, the challenge requires them to think anew their place in the world.

The only plausible way that we – the total pilot population - can defend ourselves against the “forces” of the of semiautonomous business units is to link our interests cooperatively with the interest of the each other pilot group.

AIPA will have to be prepared to create new alliances with those they view as being less significant but caught in the same dilemma.

The challenge, in other words, involves not taking the meaning of cooperation to a higher plane, but restoring it; restoring it to the plateau where we were prior to 1981. This awesome task does not begin by examining AIPA’s own complaints about the new system, it begins by grasping what will happen to all of us if we don’t impose a united position on management.

[G Cantstandya]

Just heard a quiet whisper than Joyce's new EBA may have been unsuccessful,

more to come.......

[Doctor Smith]

IMHO the AFAP has well past its use by date.
It is high time we had a pilot body that represented the well being of the pilots and not that of self concerted individuals.

AIPA have made it clear they are not interested in looking after GA, instructors or Helicopters.

So how's it gonna work, boeingmad?

[Night Hawk]

AFAP..."It's the best you'll get so you'd better take it."

Too many times have I heard that in the past 10 to 15 years. :mad:

And so T+C's all started to go...:eek:

Sorry LC the AFAP's history of even just the last 5 years shows little movement, IMHO!!!

NH

P.S DR Smith, what has the Fed's done for GA T+C?.....zip. Hence the number of new pilots coming through are a tenth that of 5 to 10 years ago.

[apache]

AFAP..."It's the best you'll get so you'd better take it."

Too many times have I heard that in the past 10 to 15 years.

And so T+C's all started to go...

Sorry LC the AFAP's history of even just the last 5 years shows little movement, IMHO!!!

NH

P.S DR Smith, what has the Fed's done for GA T+C?.....zip. Hence the number of new pilots coming through are a tenth that of 5 to 10 years ago.

second that!!!! which is why I am no longer a member

[TurbTool]

Hey LC. have the Feds considered opening up membership to international pilots, or can you already do that? Sort of playing the AIPA game. It would seem to be quite relevant now with VB and J* both commencing International operations. As another poster has said maybe a stack of QF pilots would be interested in joining a Union that does care about all pilots in Oz not just the QF group.

[five dogs]

You are forgetting history.

The AFAP has lost more members than it has gained over recent years.
Ask yourselves why? :confused:
I suspect the main reason they are jumping on the 1 pilot union band wagon is simply due to the deteriorating numbers and possible demise of the AFAP all together. :D

They are simply out chasing the big groups which = big $$$$ with the style of rhetoric pilots want to hear. They appear to accomplish 0! :yuk:

If LC and the AFAP were serious, they would start by looking after their current members :eek: and the GA community in general. It is the best opportunity in years for GA to make some gains and the AFAP is silent.

1 pilot union may be good for pilots, the AFAP is not. Let them struggle in the quicksand. If it weren't for the LOL there wouldn't be an AFAP at all.

[armslides&crossdress]

For all Lawrie and the AFAP preaches History tells its own story....
IE: 2001 , lots of AFAP members / senior Kendell pilots out on the street bacause CRJ's parked - did you get us back on our saab's/metro's .. inline with seniority .. NO, even after we offered to fund all re-training ourselves .... and what else did you do for us loyal AFAP members after taking our contributions for years and prommising protection in such an event ... ZIP
SO for all the AFAP current members ....Good Luck

[KABOY]

The AFAP have been and still are the only body that STILL represents a wide section of pilots in the aviation community. Industrial relations have changed significantly in the last 15 years with various governments, leaving the AFAP to deal with industrial issues on different platforms(mostly weak).

Until recently, professional airline pilots outside QF mainline have had nobody else to represent them, why has there been a change? The ONLY reason there is a choice now is because QF mainline is under threat from another group outside of their current members! THEY DIDN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE AND THEY STILL DON'T CARE ABOUT GA, YOU ARE NO THREAT!!

Several years ago I was privileged enough to talk with AIPA seeking assistance in a huge industrial mess within the QF group. They politely listened to our pleas, but it fell upon deaf ears. Please understand that AIPA are protecting their own conditions from deterioration, to do this they need to represent their competition.

I have suffered from the relentless industrial campaign QF has undertaken to lower conditions, the only people who could us were the AFAP. Don't write them off just yet.

[Defenestrator]

Mr Cox,

Anything???

You parade in the defence of us but you're lack of action is appalling. I Have been with the Fed for years. You're a joke Lawrie. Stand the **** up. And if you can't then let someone who can. Get some balls. Saddens me that it's come to this.

D:suspect:

[OpsNormal]

I am surprised that Mr Cox has been so quiet, however what doesn't really surprise me is the lack of even a murmur from the challenge I threw to the AIPA in my previous post on the subject last week.

I guess that sets the scene and is a very strong indicator/marker for the direction of which the wages, terms and conditions will continue to spiral in the forseeable future. The AFAP seems somewhat without teeth/spine and the AIPA/QF group representatives cannot see the wood for the trees nor give a rats about the rest of the industry now that they have their "cushy job/s".

Take a long hard look at yourselves AFAP/AIPA. Your egos are the reason employers are getting away with this crap, because of your splinter group/I'm-alright-thanks-Jack mentality that allows it to run unabated. You've allowed the industry to bend itself over and shaft itself with your apparent inaction. Your bleating now falls on the deaf ears of the many now more attuned to your continued irrelevance. No wonder the TWU is attracting membership from within your ranks and you keep doing nothing.

There are second and third level airline pilot groups that have asked for your help when presented with CA's and it hasn't been forthcoming, apart from "take-it, that's the best you'll get" when what is offered is less than what they were getting now in a period of massive growth.

Australian Aviation is bleeding profusely, you just keep coming up with band-aids as solutions. Lawrie, don't take this post personally - you know who I am if you want to talk about it.

Regards,

OpsN.;)

[apache]

It is a pity in a way that the MEMBERS do not get to negotiate the T&C's of the AFAP/AIPA "negotiators".

[CaptCloudbuster]

Take a long hard look at yourselves AFAP/AIPA. Your egos are the reason employers are getting away with this crap

What a load of bu@#$hit.

How about the fact Pilots keep voting yes to crap T & C's in contracts / EBAs presented to them.

AIPA/AFAP/JPC or TWU are only as strong as their members resolve.


Talk about a "gen y" mentality:rolleyes:

[OpsNormal]

I'm not going to bite, save to say apart from that try to play the ball, not the man in your arguments.... :=

Name calling or (very incorrectly) assuming that because I have an opinion that differs from yours then I must be a "Gen Y" does nothing to re-inforce your argument.

What I have been trying to say is that without complete unity in our workforce then there will always be a wedge that can be driven amongst all of us. A pro-active union would have seen to this years ago to (at a minimum) ensure their own continuity of existence.

OpsN.;)

[Erin Brockovich]

I think we’re all missing the point here. It’s time to forgive the past and get our sh$t squared away once and for all!

As said by Lawrie, this IS a golden opportunity so let’s not waste it. The only ones that care about the industry are us. We’re the only ones that actually want to be here everything being equal. The rest just use it as a stepping stone and push it deeper into the mud, and we’re up to our necks in it.

There is one fundamental that keeps being overlooked – A union is only as strong as its members.

You can’t expect any union to work miracles without proper backing. To think otherwise is fantasy. We need everyone on board.

These should be wonderful times. There is more money floating around than ever before yet we are still getting screwed. The landscape has changed. We’ve now got thousands of tanks instead of a few guns but are still pointing them at each other, not the piss ant army that is the ‘stone stepping cost cutting collective’!

We’ve got them by the balls but are still powerless to fight them.

I agree with OpsNormal. Lawrie we need to see you and your staff in person visit every operator with an AOC. That includes every backwater aboriginal community to mainline. There are a lot of newbies that need to get onboard. They are the ones that can help us or screw us in the future.

GA is the key. The AFAP support for the Northern Air Charter pilot’s was great. They swiftly helped even though most of the pilot’s weren’t members. In the end, it still came down to the pilots, and they won!

The Jetstar guys know what to do. At least hold out until Rudd rolls back the IR laws. Good luck to you all. The year of the Pilot.

[Capn Bloggs]

How about the fact Pilots keep voting yes to crap T & C's in contracts / EBAs presented to them.

Well, NJS pilots just signed their ECA with absolutely no involvement from the AFAP (despite what is implied in the latest Air Pilot): in fact the AFAP said the NJS pilots didn't have a hope in hell of getting a collective agreement. They did get one: with the TWU's help. When the premier pilot's union says you don't have a chance when in fact you do, how can they be credible?

Apparently, all the AFAP did was help some individuals renew their AWAs.

They are getting some serious money in fees but don't seem to be coming up with the goods as far as I can see.

The AFAP needs to lift it's game and credibility before it will go anywhere. :ugh:

[RENURPP]

Capt Bloggs is spot on.

The AFAPs assistance with NJS consisted of advising 'them that chasing a collective agreement was like looking for "Pixies in the garden" well guess what Lawrie, we found some pixies and thanks for your help! NOT

He sarcastically referred to the pilots involved in the negotiations as "IR experts" again those Pilots, who are NOT IR experts, achieved more in twelve months than the AFAP, who are supposed to be IR experts, did in the last ten years, and it was all against the advice offered by this lazy unproductive organisation (AFAP) :yuk:

[max autobrakes]

BRIEF HISTORY ON THE ORIGINS OF PILOTING UNIONS IN AUSTRALIA




The first pilots union in this country was the Australian Air Pilots Association (AAPA)
It was registered with the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission in 1946, the same year QANTAS became a government entity..
Australian pilots expected that they would enjoy legal and professional recognition as a result .However pilots soon became discontented with arbitrated decisions that were handed down by this body of the Menzies’ Government

This discontent ultimately led to the dissolution and withdrawal of the AAPA from the commission in 1959 and the formation of the Australian Federation of Air pilots (AFAP) based in Melbourne with an overseas branch formed and affiliated in Sydney for the Qantas Pilots.. A new constitution was drafted which allowed for support between the domestic pilots and overseas Qantas pilots, but not necessarily joint strike action. This new association was not a registered Union , consequently it was outside the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Court. This now allowed Australian pilots to challenge a rigid system within a comprehensive framework of compulsory arbitration that had existed in various forms since 1901. It would seem the AFAP had achieved what it wanted, Collective Bargaining. Unfortunately for the pilots, events were to prove otherwise.

Airline Management of the day again employed delaying tactics wherever possible when negotiating with the AFAP. Invarably the Domestic operators would reach agreement with their pilots but Qantas under CEO ,C.O..Turner became more and more intransient. The period between 1961 and 1964 saw legal manoeuvres, threats and counter threats from both sides .Gradually the AFAP gained the upper hand through being outside the legal procedures of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act.
The AFAP succeeded in 1965 in having the Secretary of the Department of Labour and National Services, Henry Bland, introduce a neutral, independent, dispute-settling body.
The” Industrial Relationship Procedures Agreement “,was established, as a form of collective bargaining with mediation procedures in the industrial arena. This new agreement was highly successful and became known as the “Bland Procedure”.

By 1965 the domestic pilots of Ansett-ANA and Trans Australia Airlins (TAA) finally negotiated a bidding style contract into place which included provisions for stability throughout their working life. It is because airline pilots are not in a position to freelance their special skills in the same manner as other professional people that they pushed to define specifically their career expectations through hard contractual terms. Qantas management however opposed any form of collective bargaining methods because they were outside the control of the Arbitration Court and stated that they would face additional pressure from other aircrew unions. Eventually through industrial pressures applied by the overseas branch of the AFAP Qantas reluctantly agreed to an 18 moth trial of the Bland Procedures.
Once again because of, the intransient nature of Qantas management and their “management prerogative” ideology, they reneged on the deal and appeared to purposely fan the flames of conflict, the result being the big strike of 1966. Both sides dug in and a long drawn out industrial dispute resulted. However, through the solidarity of the pilots, Qantas management capitulated with a new offer to negotiate on collective bargaining arrangements based on the North American Bidding Style contract that the domestic arm of the AFAP had negotiated into place nearly two years previously for the Ansett-ANA and TAA pilots.

What did the numberous strikes in the late 50’s and early 60’s achieve? What were the benefits of this North American Bidding System (NABS) and why did the pilots of that era go to such lengths to obtain it? Major benefits to evolve from this period were collective bargaining, comparative wage justice,contractual obligations affecting both parties,orderly career progression for pilots airline expansion and stability due mostly to the North American Bidding System (NABS)
The North American Bidding System ensured contractual conditions for pay that departed from a calendar monthly system. NABS was based on a 56 day bid period which, in turn constituted a 28 day pay cycle and 13 pay periods per year and guaranteed duty free periods between flying duties. Pilots had the ability to bid for suitable holiday periods and promotion, based on seniority. Holidays could be delayed or accumulated. Grievance procedures ensured that a fair hearing would be obtained where a pilot could elect to be represented by a Pilot Liason Captain who was a member of the AFAP. Paternalism and nepotism no longer determined promotional opportunities .It basically created a descriptive contract that unscrupulous management could not manoeuvre around.


The following was written by Sir Hudson Fysh about the 1966 strike upon his retirement

“Now the pilots’ trouble is over for the time being, they have been accorded virtually all they have asked for, even the North American type contract. They were fought by Turner over many years. The key point is that practically all that the pilots have been given should have been conceded years ago and $14 million in one year saved and much more good will. All right! Why were no concessions given? That is the question. It goes back to my bitter row, week in, week out with Turner. Also with Taylor. Both hated the pilots and accused me of being on the pilots side.
Sir Hudson also wrote the following about C.O.Turner:

“…he is completely, absolutely money and power mad…ruthlessly ambitious…flies into a temper…we are poles apart and antagonistic…never once can I remember Turner responding to a suggestion by me…on the other hand his mind is brilliant.”



.This escape from arbitration in 1959 and the subsequent success of the AFAP was the only example of a union circumventing the Government mandated monolithic industrial system. This led the Menzies’ Government to move to enforce it’s authority with an amendment to the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill on 19 October 1967.. This Bill amendment became known as the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal.. This legislation aimed to bring the AFAP back within the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Act and rendered the pilot’s choice of non-registration irrelevant. .The Flight Crew Officers’ Industrial tribunal, was chaired by Professor J E Isaacs who strongly encouraged negotiation and conciliation in preference to arbitration, which improved the industrial relations between Airline management and their pilots.
This escape from arbitration and the forceful adoption of collective bargaining in 1967, under the watchful independent umpiring of the Flight Crew Officer’s Industrial Tribunal ensured stability at a time of industrial instability for the rest of Australia.



That was then, what have we now? The AFAP a poor geriatic union that can barely lift a finger to help it's members, and it's prodigy the AIPA the old" International branch" if you like that hasn't won over too many friends in the past ,either. Is this due to a successful Government campaign to emasculate unions thanks to Work Choices, or has the fire in the bellies of our union reps died thanks to being too successful in the past and the shock of the "89 dispute. One too many battles using the same game plan?
Whatever the reason, who cares, what we need now is vision and the two main pilot unions to start working together again (which shouldn't be so tough considering their common past) so the piloting profession will no longer have to go with wooden bowl in hand to the artful dodger and ask "please sir I want some more".
Once a united pilots' union is once more representing the interests of all pilots in this country we may see a little less pissing in the wind shall we.

[Lawrie Cox]

Good to see some of the usual suspects vent their spleens. To answer those who might actually be thinking collectively as one pilot body lets deal with some of the points.

The Federation does nothing for GA T&C’s well then I will advise our staff who have been active in some of the following that have been doing nothing:
Jetcraft/ Alliance/ O’Connors/ Aero Rescue/ Network/ Skippers/ Cape York Air/ Civil Flying School/ Jayrow/ CHC Heli/ Bristow/ RFDS (all sections)/ Pearl Aviation/ M**Air/ Mangalore Chinese Flying/ Bush Flight/ Helicopters Aust/ Australian Helicopters/ Direct Air/ Police Air Wing WA/ BAe Tamworth just to name a few.

Also look at the cases we have run on Bond issues and you will see the majority relate to GA/ Regional airlines. We do always talk to our branch reps about meetings and I suggest any member who wishes a meeting at their port or company only needs to contact one of the industrial staff to arrange.

Yes we would love to able to visit many more off the cuff around the country but it comes down to the dollar.

Turbo tool yes we have been approached by QF pilots to join but have encouraged them to work through the issues at AIPA. It also does nothing to advance the position of joining the groups by encouraging poaching but in the end if that is the way we have to go then so be it.

And despite ‘rumours of our demise’ by some here in the low point of the nineties we hit around 1200 members we are now just under 2500 so we are obviously disappearing as an organisation. Ah that’s right wishful thinking on your part perhaps.

As for NJS I said that if thought an immediate change would deliver the union collective agreement (you promised that one Peter not me) then you were dreaming. Yes there is an employee collective agreement but not the big bold TWU you touted so hard for.

As for Max you need to do a little more homework yet on AusALPA this body was created out of threat by AIPA in Cairo at the IFALPA conference to which we regularly encouraged AIPA to attend and as usual tried to take over and remove AFAP as a founding member organisation.

But more importantly you seem to know so much about the grand plan pity AIPA still will not have all professional pilots in one body. Ask the question I have time and time again with no positive response.

To the ex Kendells CRJ I suggest you relook at the facts we did not walk away read the s 127 decision and collective view at the time. If you still do not understand it I am always available to go through the files and transcripts to show you the full process.

We operate within our rules and carry out the direction from pilot leaders and by the way Apache pilots do set my salary and conditions.

Again it is up to pilots to make this work but I dare say reviewing the responses to date here it would appear to be a lost cause if we continue to fight amongst ourselves.

Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations AFAP

[Capn Bloggs]

As for NJS I said that if thought an immediate change would deliver the union collective agreement (you promised that one Peter not me) then you were dreaming. Yes there is an employee collective agreement but not the big bold TWU you touted so hard for.

There were no promises by Peter. A pilot-negotiated ECA was a better outcome than the AWA alternative. That's what negotation is all about: you go in demanding a UCA, threatening PIA and then take what you consider reasonable. The AFAP didn't even try to get to stage one.

[armslides&crossdress]

Thanks for the words of wisdom lawrie ??, however I am compelled to suggest You do not try to justify your inactions with the pearl's of advise such as ..ie: ... so and so go look at X - Y or Z to understand the AFAP's (AKA) LCox decision...
We do not have to buddy we lived and suffered as a direct result of your decisions made at the time and sure as h#@$ do not need to examin documents to understand it.. a little less arrogance would go a long way, however from all the ill feeling here I expect the writing is on the wall..

[ShockWave]

Well said LC.

Dr Smith... If QF does go ahead and send S/Os back to GA as instructors Aipa will have no choice but to be involved.

IMHO, Aipa will be of little use initially in dealing with anything outside of their sphere of operations. However times do change and now, what they thought could never hurt them, is biting them on the backside they too must react.
The days of a guaranteed management position in QF following your stint as Aipa president should be well and truly over.

[blaster666]

Bloggs Quote "There were no promises by Peter. A pilot-negotiated ECA was a better outcome than the AWA alternative. That's what negotation is all about: you go in demanding a UCA, threatening PIA and then take what you consider reasonable. The AFAP didn't even try to get to stage one".

Absolute bullsh*t Bloggs ...... One I can tell you for a fact that Peter paraded the TWU mutiny on the basis that they would become party to a CA to show NJS who's really running the business around here and .....

Two.......The pilot negotiated ECA is better than the AWA alternative .....give me a break...... you are going backwards boys...... it's just with the chest beating you had no viable alternative without thinking a little.......

But then Bloggs............ you would never think about win / wins would you ....just milking the cow for as long as you can ?

[Capn Bloggs]

Have a Bex and a good lie down Blaster. Your'e too close to the edge!

FWIW, I never took what Peter had to say as gospel. Maybe you did. More fool you. It's all about negotiation, which you of course know a lot about as you did it, one on one, for an AWA (I wonder if the teamwork-centric AFAP was involved?). You've got a few cobbers over in Jetstar, I see...