78 Sqn RAF Official Stand Up Ceremony

[TheWizard]

Finally feeling up to typing something legible. Yesterday was a big success and at least now according to the article the pressure on the SH fleet has now been given a 'substantial boost'!

The article does the explaining
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/MoreMerlinsBoostHelicopterForce.htm

[minigundiplomat]

Hallelujah! We are saved! Thank you 78 Sqn!

I don't know what we would have done if you hadn't come to our rescue. We'd probably have had to 'just get on with it' like we have done up to now and like we we will do when the Army realises that more Merlins may look good to Daily Mail readers, but translates into nothing at 50 C and 10000 feet when Kajaki needs 10 troops and 3 tonnes of food/water/fuel/ammo.

Nice thought though!

[minigundiplomat]

And whatever, at least your not Freaks!

[TheWizard]

Well, well, how predictable that the broken record from Odiham is spun again.
It is true what your guys say about you. No-one can come to your rescue mate, you are well past your sell by date.:rolleyes:

[HeliAviator]

Hurrah, the Cavalry appear over the hill just in the nick of time.

Minigundiplomat, correct on the DA side of things, but +50 deg C at 10K -not really.

[minigundiplomat]

Minigundiplomat, correct on the DA side of things, but +50 deg C at 10K -not really.




With any useful payload?

Wizard

Whatever

[StopStart]

expected to be in service at Benson later this year once they have been brought up to RAF specifications by UK manufacturer Agusta/Westland.

Surely, as with anything else I've ever seen in the RAF, this should read:

....once they have been brought down to RAF specifications...

Just wondering.......

[Rigga]

I read the Bul...Blurb from MOD and came up with this:

So what are the remainder of the FI's former 78 Sqn called now?

And whatever happened to 78's Griffin? (i.e. Griffin Way) - Has Merlin managed to turn a Griffin into a Tiger?

[Tigs2]

minigundiplomat

And whatever, at least your not Freaks!

Well if you are referring to what I think you are referring that was certainly minigun diplomacy. Whilst i guess it was meant as a bit of banter I actually think its teetering on the red card mate, and should the person it is aimed at frequent this site (very possible) I can only imagine the deep personal hurt it will cause.

[GasFitter]

been brought up to RAF specifications by UK manufacturer Agusta/Westland

Does that include the proper flooring?

GF

Btw, is the reformed 78 Sqn an 'aircrew only' club?

[TheWizard]

Rigga
So what are the remainder of the FI's former 78 Sqn called now?

1564 Flight


And whatever happened to 78's Griffin? (i.e. Griffin Way) - Has Merlin managed to turn a Griffin into a Tiger?

Never has been a Griffin in the crest! I guess someone got their mythical beasts muddled up :}

From the Heraldic website A heraldic tiger rampant and double queued - approved by King George VI in November 1939. The theme of the badge was based on the Squadron's aircraft at the time, the Whitley, which had Tiger engines and twin tails.


GasFitter
Btw, is the reformed 78 Sqn an 'aircrew only' club?
Yes, as is 28 Sqn. The 'groundcrew' are part of their own big club now called Merlin Force. Bit like Odiham and Lyneham have done.

[GasFitter]

The 'groundcrew' are part of their own big club now called Merlin Force. Bit like Odiham and Lyneham have done.

OOhhh!! That's sounds quite exciting! Does it work better that way?

[TheWizard]

Only time will tell!!

[minigundiplomat]

Well if you are referring to what I think you are referring that was certainly minigun diplomacy. Whilst i guess it was meant as a bit of banter I actually think its teetering on the red card mate, and should the person it is aimed at frequent this site (very possible) I can only imagine the deep personal hurt it will cause


Freaks(Plural) I apply that collectively. But very JHC of you nonetheless.

[normally right blank]

....once they have been brought down to RAF specifications..
Very true, in fact! That strange nose - "stiff upper lip"? - of the Danish EH-101 contained systems that are now taken out or "not maintained" in the HC3A.
The RDanAF litterally went overboard with every imaginable system on their new SAR (and troop transport) helo. (Can't blame them. It was 1965 when they last got 8, then state of the art, Sikorsky S-61A's. And another 40 - 50 years before the next one?). Very fairly (?) they then said: We won't accept it, till it works! Some years later it worked, was delivered, and - oops. 14 EH101's! Can't utilise them. Result: Of the 3 SAR stations, 1 is EH101 and 2 S-61A. (Sea King to be kept for another two years!). And in the last defence agreement the Danish Navy got 4 "Merlin types". Added to their 8 Lynx. When will they be allowed to "get their act together"? :ooh: So Denmark very graciously parted with their troop transport EH101's - for a couple of years - :p

[minigundiplomat]

A chinook vrs merlin pi**ing contest


Ask the Army. There is no contest.


minigun spouting more crap anyway


Sorry AIDU. Didn't mean to tread on your toes.

[Evalu8ter]

Unlike the Pumas, I don't think the Merlin HC3As are being totally "dumbed down" . Whereas some of the gucci toys will not be supported in service, they will, I believe, be getting BERP IV blades and some other UK specific kit.

It will be interesting to see the performance figures, but let's not fall into the hackneyed trap of comparing a Merlin to a Chinook. It isn't the same, live with it. More relevant is to compare the Merlin HC3A to the Sea King 4+, which by all reports is making a meaningful contribution in the Stan.

Anything that offloads the Chinook fleet to allow it to concentrate on core duties is important, so we should welcome 78 Sqn to the party.

We wanted more Chinooks, none were available, this was the next best thing.

[Pilot Pacifier]

none were available

Eh, I beg to differ. Boeing were literally throwing them our way, it was a political decision to buy Merlin, pure and simple. The RAF wanted Chinook, the Army wanted Chinook and the MOD told the politicians time and again that the Chinook was "The Helicopter Of Choice". For the original number of Merlin's brought, you could have got nearly TWICE the amount of Chinooks.:ugh:

But how many times in all three services have we been lumbered with kit that the users have not wanted?

[Evalu8ter]

Pilot Pacifier, whilst you are correct with regard to the spitefully political 1995 purchase of 22 Merlin HC3 and 14 Mk2A/3 Chinooks, the UOR procurement of the Danish Merlins was a direct consequence of no Chinooks being available in the same timeframe. Boeing could not deliver CH47Fs with a UK Release until 2011/2012, the US Army could not release CHAPS aircraft until 2010 due to their overstretch and nobody else was selling s/h D models to buy. Maybe could of got the dregs of the Agusta C models in Libya, but the UAE got the pick of the "best ones".

So, sorry, the Danish Merlins were available (The Portugese ones weren't), we needed some headlines and extra SH (in that order....) so the HC3As were bought and Mk3 Fix to Field was shelved in favour of Mk3 Reversion.

Bet they wish they'd bought the Portugese Pumas as well now...

[Navaleye]

Good to see a "new" squadron formed rather than the reverse. Hope we have enough aircrew to fly these birds.

[TheWizard]

Finally, after 20 posts somebody finally sees the positive side:ugh:
It doesn't matter what type of helicopter it is, it is the fact that it is EXTRA helicopters that counts.
The fact of the matter is, JHC is not all about one helicopter type. The clue is in the name. Each one has a different role and capabilities. If we went by the bleatings of some people, why don't we just let the Chinook force get on with every Op, exercise, deployment there is? How long do you think it would be before it was on its knees?
Once more for the hard of thinking, extra helicopters = extra capability whether that be freeing up other types to go elsewhere (eg SK4) or supplementing existing fleets.
The mix may not be perfect but it is what we have- fact - so lets just get on with it and quit bleating and moaning (I know that will fall on deaf ears in some circles:hmm:)
In this day of the ever shrinking Armed Forces, I for one welcome the restoration of a Sqn rather than the usual disbandment we hear every year.
Have a nice weekend!:)

[Pilot Pacifier]

Evalu8ter...

I bow to your superior knowledge! :ok:

[GasFitter]

Good to see a "new" squadron formed

Why does the addition of 6 airframes (2 or maybe 4 at a push fielded due to mods, servicing etc) require a 'new' sqn, when 22 only needed one sqn?

Jobs for the 3-ringers?

[TheWizard]

From Wikipedia
The term squadron (sqn) can be used to refer to an administrative sub-unit of a station, e.g. Air Traffic Control sqn, Personnel Management sqn; there are also ground support squadrons, e.g. 2 (MT) Sqn.

The primary use for the term is as the name of the flying squadrons which carry out the primary tasks of the RAF. RAF squadrons are somewhat analogous to the regiments of the British Army, in that they have histories and traditions going back to their formation, regardless of where they are currently based, which aircraft they are operating, etc. They can be awarded standards and battle honours for meritorious service.

Whilst every squadron is different, most flying squadrons are commanded by a wing commander and have an establishment of around 100 personnel and 12 aircraft, but 16 aircraft for Tornado F3 Squadrons.



Before 78 reformed, 28 Sqn was the biggest in the RAF, with 22 aircraft and 3 Operational Flights plus an OCF equalling some 120 aircrew alone. Now there are 2 Flights on each Sqn plus the OCF. There are two Conversion courses running this year with output (all being well) in double figures from each. So no, 'not jobs for the 3 ringers'. Those posts were already there.
You cannot base the number of crews you need on the serviceability of the aircraft. If you have the aircraft allocated you need to have the personnel trained to fly them.
Simple logistics, nothing more.
The groundcrew/engineers are combined under the title of Merlin Force as mentioned in an earlier post.

I hope this information helps answer your questions and alleviates your terribly suspicious mind!! http://forums.airshows.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Biggus]

Wizard,

Honest question, not trying to start/continue a pi**ing contest, but on what basis was 28 Sqn the 'biggest in the RAF'? You said in post 11 that 28 is an 'aircrew only club' and you state it had some 120 aircrew. Was it the biggest Sqn when it had it's own groundcrew as well?

If you are just going on the basis of 120 aircrew I think some of the multi engine Sqns could run you close, or even beat that. C-130K Sqns, when there were 4 of them, use to avearge about 25 crews, so that is abour 125 ish plus Flt Cdrs, etc. Current Nimrod and E-3D Sqns are probably in the region of 120+, and I saw on an MOD website the Stn Cdr at Brize say there are 16 Tristar crews. Assuming that means 16 x flight deck and rearcrew we are talking about 16 x (3+5ish?), which would be about 130 including Flt Cdrs etc! Not sure how many aircrew are on 101, but I heard that was pretty big too.

Or was 28 Sqn the biggest because it had 22 aircraft?

[TheWizard]

Biggus,
I did say 28 Sqn was the biggest in the RAF. That included aircrew, groundcrew, and all support elements. It is only since 78 Sqn stood up that both have become 'aircrew only'.

Hope this clarifies things a bit more for you.:)

[GasFitter]

Thanks for that, Wiz! Nice answer!