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Olendirk
25th Jan 2008, 08:30
For all new captains on a new airplane: its ok to be aware, but let the copilots do their job and dont adjust the descend planning with your amazing hints and tips. this goes on our nerves. when we are flying 3000ft high with a good overspeed, say something, but when to reduce, what rate to sink we shall use, is not necessary. there are several ways to do it.

thanks for listening

OD

Dream Land
25th Jan 2008, 08:53
Olendirk, as you gain more experience you will better understand the short comings of new L/H seaters, my suggestion is to be as accommodating and patient as possible, try to help them out without making it an I'm right and you're wrong situation, when you make the move, having a helpful FO makes all the difference, happy flying!

Ringi
25th Jan 2008, 09:28
Has any new captain had the experience of flying with a fo that previously was turned down for command prior to you getting the upgrade? Just wondering was it difficult? Did the fo think they could do a better job and feel they should be in the left seat instead of you?

Looker
25th Jan 2008, 09:59
As a captain promoted from the RHS all you need to remember is that you can do the FOs job - some FOs may think they can do your job but they have not yet proven that is the case.

I'm happy to say all of the FOs I flew with after I became a captain were helpful, proficient and gently corrected my shortcomings.

wobble2plank
25th Jan 2008, 10:14
Looker,

Having done the RHS job, moved the the LHS and then, after a lifestyle change, gone back the the RHS, I know I can do the FO's job and I know I can do the Captains job, and have proven it so.

Remember, the world is not black and white, there are some grey bits :)

W2P

Oooop,s sorry, just re-read your post and noticed the 'some'. Apologies if the above seems a touch hasty. Must RE-READ post :ugh:

Nice Touch
25th Jan 2008, 10:50
For all new captains on a new airplane: its ok to be aware, but let the copilots do their job

Looking in your ops Part A and see what your "job" is.

Then try to think of a the people behind you-your ego/comfort comes last. The safe conduct of the flight is first.

Display exemplary airmanship/CRM and be sensitive to the other pilots concerns. Only this way can you claim to have the most "aware" crew.

And remember todays new Captain is tomorrows new Training Captain so if you want to get out of the RHS don't upset him/her.

Now go and get the weather!

Pilot Pete
25th Jan 2008, 10:53
Has any new captain had the experience of flying with a fo that previously was turned down for command prior to you getting the upgrade? Just wondering was it difficult? Did the fo think they could do a better job and feel they should be in the left seat instead of you? Yes. He was a gentleman, much older than me and was a real nice chap. However, it became apparent during the descent why he had not got a command.......:)

PP

Edited to add;

For all experienced F/Os flying with a new captain on type: its ok to be aware, but let the captains do their job and dont get upset when you take the new captain out of his comfort zone with your descend planning with your amazing experience. This goes on our nerves. When you are flying 3000ft high with a good overspeed, we will say something, but when to reduce, what rate to sink we shall use, is not necessary in your opinion, but is going to be said by the inexperienced captain who has signed for the jet. There are several ways to do it. There is also good CRM and explaining beforehand and updating the new captain with what and why you are doing it will go some way to alleviating their discomfort and making you a better F/O than you think (know) you are.:ok:

thanks for listening

PP

BOAC
25th Jan 2008, 13:35
Olendirk - I think from your post you speak as a F/O? Can I suggest you wait until you are a 'new' Captain and review your post with the benefit of hindsight? Dream Land's advice is sound.

You also, of course, have the option of discussing this in the cockpit and not on PPrune.

wobble2plank
25th Jan 2008, 15:42
BOAC,

Very true. It is also worthy to note that the Captains signature is in the tech log. In many incidents the FO gets reprimanded/retrained the Captain gets the sack!

So 'conservatism' is, in many ways, a very good thing when you are just finding your feet.

The other thing to consider is that the job of a Captain is not 'just' to fly the aircraft there are many other external variables that have to be thought of. Not all of which are obvious from the RHS.

So give them a break, we are all there to achieve a safe operation.

W2P

dkaarma
25th Jan 2008, 15:48
Olendirk
Can I suggest you have a listen to this podcast.

Episode 10 of Fly With Me
http://cdn.libsyn.com/joepodcaster/fwm-010.mp3

It is presented by First Officer Joe d'Eon talking about his experiences upgrading to Captain.

wee one
25th Jan 2008, 15:54
The thread starter is probably about 1500hrs.sstr, dutch belge or scandic, and probably not as slick as they think. The attitude dispalyed in the post screams the above.
I never say anything unless it needs saying. Therefore it should be safe to assume most new captains do the same. Its only the comfort zone that varies with time.
Poeple like olendirk make me uncomfortable mostly because they are so slick they cant think lateraly or see the holes lining up.
Wind yer neck in sonny. Hows that for crm.
He probably sees us of speedbrake as a fail item.

Just checked the profile. Seems I was right

BarbiesBoyfriend
25th Jan 2008, 15:55
Olendirk

Suspect you had a bad day at work.

Don't be a baby. If you have 'an issue' with someone over prompting you (as I've had myself as an FO!) best to speak up AT THE TIME about your annoyance in as direct a fashion as you can manage.

Don't be abusive but keep your cool and state what it is that you don't like. Most captains will take what you say on board- if not the first time you say it, maybe the next or the next time!

It's not one sided tho. See how you get on when you get in the LHS.

Some FO's are a pain-in-the-ass too!:ok:

kwachon
25th Jan 2008, 16:15
Now lets see, It used to be that the Captain was an overpowering god on the flight deck, then came CRM, we learnt to be nice and listen to all the crew, after all it did prove to enhace safety. Now it seems we are to be directed by an F/O and told not to pass on our experience to them.. ?

PGA
25th Jan 2008, 16:21
@ Wee One

Why would this individual be Dutch, Belgium or Scandic?

haughtney1
25th Jan 2008, 18:00
Dutch...Nice but over confident to the point of arrogance
belge.. obsessed with visual approaches as being cooler but usually outside their real as opposed to their percieved ability.
Scandics..generally arrogant.despite having PAID|for their line trg in turkey and adopting those bad habits as achievments.

A tad harsh? but probably quite accurate as well.......:E

Personally, I can't stand Ozzie captains myself.....full of all the qualitities described above...AND Australian:8

Bearcat
25th Jan 2008, 18:28
to the orig poster....you have no respect for the guy sitting in the LHS. Why do you want to be 3000 feet high purposely on the profile and scream in....to show the guy in the LHS you are an ace or a tool?

arrogance comes before a big fall and i've flown with tons of folk like you. They also invariably end up croppers in their command checks.

My final piece of advice is grow up as that skipper you have slated on the net will remember you as a cheeky pup. When s/he gets a bit of time in the LHS and you fly together again the experience I would imagine will be uneasy for you.

OPEN DES
25th Jan 2008, 18:51
Why can't we all just be friends?

Time for a group-hug.

:)


FACT: there are pains in both seats. You will be surprised there will even be pains outside of aviation. But you should have learnt that.

In the likely event that the mentioned capt is just 'new' to his seat.
OD: time to loosen up. Just try to accomodate the new guy. His comfort-zone will increase with time. Who cares, as long as the company pays you on time. What matters is that you are on the ground safe and on-time to enjoy your life, the rest is details.


OPEN DES
(who is not ashamed to use speedbrakes as they are a flightcontrol, they even come out a bit when you roll!)

BTW: I am Dutch

cupoftea
25th Jan 2008, 20:00
Olendirk, Your Part A will say that the Captain is the final Authority on the airplane.That does not mean he can play God, but he will be the one that is responsible for the safe outcome of the flight, like it or not . If he judges you to be on the high/fast side you just have to accept what he says. Your limited flightexperience has probably prevented you from forseeing the potential problems your captain has. That is why he is in that seat and not you.
Instead of whining about your new cautious captain, you should assist him by doing what he says. If the airplane goes around due to you being high and fast, the captain is getting the phonecall and fills in the papers. Thats why we captains(not only the inexperienced ones) interfere when we fly with co-pilots who's arrogance exceeds their flight experience. Luckily there are not to many like you around, most play their game as they should:Be assertive but leave a bit of respect for the old boy/girl in the left seat. one tip(I know you like tips) if you go on like this the captains you fly with will not recommend you for upgrade:)

Earthmover
25th Jan 2008, 20:06
Well I've flown with all the nationalities listed variously above - and the Scandics were bl00dy excellent. This goes to prove that we can all justify our prejudices with our personal experiences. The truth lies ... well, I don't think there is a truth. Sure, I've flown with some really arrogant Dutchmen and yet one of the best, and most pleasant, pilots I know is from Amsterdam. On the other hand I have flown with some really monumental British :mad: (my own nationality)and some who I would be happy to let fly my kids anywhere anytime.

One thing is true though ... if you treat your F/O well and with courtesy, you don't often get let down. As you sow, so shall you reap.

Olendirk
25th Jan 2008, 21:22
hmm guys,

this develops the wrong dirction. there are cpts which fly through the fo, when they are pnf. you know, like telling you what to select in the mcp mode. so this was what i had enough of. high and fast and i did not recognize, i want my captain to say something. so dont misunderstand that and interpret wrong things. i love crm, i live it. maybe i was too angry when i wrote the post. so please forgive me. thats also crm

cheerio:ugh:

Admiral346
25th Jan 2008, 21:28
Olendirk,

i have gotten command half a year ago. So you may consider me unexperienced or whatever.

Now I do fly with many FOs, that have been on type for many years, just as I fly with brand new ones, who have more hours operating lawnmowers than pasengerjets. I usually leave a very long leash for my FO, letting him decide on the fuel on his leg, fly with or without flightdirector, by hand or on autopilot,... but only as long as I can cover the situation s/he puts me in. If for any reason I feel my plan doesn't hold up for the type of situation I am being put in, i will exercise my authority.
This works the other way also, when flying with a brandnew FO, who is not even able to judge his/her own abilities. If I find myself acting too fast, and have a feeling that my FO looses the ability of oversight and wouldn't be able to recover by himself, I need to do something to get him back into the cockpit, preferably even ahead. That might be to fly a 360, to level off intermediatly, or just to simply tell the tower we are not ready for departure, even if a slot is about to run out.
This is what makes flying safe.

Now as an FO, you get told by the captain, if s/he doesn't like what you are doing. As a CPT, sometimes you get told, and sometimes you have to use all your antennae to sense the unspoken. You have to order an overconfident FO to shift down a gear, and take some time to rethink the plan.

I find your attitude very immature, and I believe you have not given enough thought to the fact, that airliners are being flown together, not one guy there and the other back.
You need many more years of selfreflection, social competence. It's not just the hours on type that count.


Nic

edit: you just posted, as I was writing. Of ycourse there is no sense in talking down the FO, but if the old man feels uncomfortable whith how you are flying? Keep him in the cockpit with you, maybe he can't think the way you do, still is too busy with the new aircraft. What is the problem for you to switch to a mode, the other guy likes? Then you will be flying the thing together again, go home and have a beer - instead of having a one man show with a :mad: up approach in the end..

Right Way Up
25th Jan 2008, 22:50
This problem is symptomatic of underconfident Captains. New captains will be for a short time feel slightly uneasy in their new position and will be aware how much they have to lose if they get it wrong. Therefore they will quite rightly be a little more controlling. However as they feel more comfortable they will release their grip. The problem is with the longer term Captains who never seem to gain reasonable confidence and basically use f/os as an autopilot.

Shanwick Shanwick
25th Jan 2008, 23:05
Olendirk

Any First Officer must fly within the capabilities and comfort zone of whichever Captain they fly alongside as he's the one who has to recover any situation. Once you go outside these parameters, as the chap with all the liability, he will say something and eventually take control if necessary.

LeftHeadingNorth
25th Jan 2008, 23:38
Wee one,

I must say I laughed at your post! Am a Scandi myself with 1200h on type. Obsessed with visuals, overly confident and probably arrogant as well! Thoroughly enjoy flying fast for as long as possible! My flying habits have been formed by various captains in my present company (which is most likely the same as yours).

Bealzebub
25th Jan 2008, 23:40
As Shanwick shanwick has said, each Captain ( and F/O ) has a comfort zone. If you will it is a box. Within this box there is an individual acceptance that they can cope adequately with their own performance and the performance of other crew members. This box is not rigid, and it will expand to some degree, with experience and it will change shape with experience. A Captain will only be confident if at any given time the operation keeps them within this box. Sometimes situations will occur that take an individual towards the edge of this box, and it is natural and usually desirable that caution will steer the individual back to a safer position.

For new Captains this box is understandably going to be restricted. This will be the case when the individual is new to the role and again if they are new to the type. A good and experienced F/O will recognise this reality and hopefully adjust their own responses to accomodate this. This is part of the learning curve, because F/O's also have dynamic comfort zones that an experienced Captain will need to recognize and hopefully will try to accomodate.

Sometimes you just have to be patient.