Using handheld GPS on commercial flight

[crozzy]

On a resent flight with Ryan Air I was asked to turn off my handheld GPS I asked why! but the cabin crew just said you couldn't use on the aircraft or near the airport. I do understand that 737 800s have more intricate avionics than the PA28 I use the unit in but I can't see that the gps could cause any problems to the aircraft! The cabin crew said laptops and handheld gaming systems could be used after take off so I just thought that GPS wasn't a problem!

Can anybody tell me the reason why I couldn't use the unit (Garmin 196) or is this just Cabin Crew not understanding what GPS is or even just a Ryan Air thing thanks in advance!

[crozzy]

I answering my own post because I have received a reply from RyanAir stating that GPS can not be used because they can interfere with the navigation equipment on the aircraft thanks RyanAir for your reply!

[rossym]

Also, if you search, you'll find there was a big topic quite recently about this too! ;)

[SpamFritters]

Even if the GPS didn't mess with the systems.. I'm sure they would still enforce the rule as if everyone else are told not to use electrical components... why should you :rolleyes:

[I Just Want To Fly]

All airlines require devices which transmit or receive data be switched off or be turned to Flight Safe Mode. It would be impossible to list every single device, or train cabin crew about each device.

A cabin crew member asks you to do something.

Why?

Because they said so!

[moggiee]

Given that GPS receivers are entirely passive, and that the signals from the satellites are in and around the aeroplane already, this is clearly nonsense.

Bluetooth, wireless LAN etc are different - they transmit - but if your GPS was not usung bluetooth or wireless LAN, then it could not have caused any harm.

[radeng]

moggiee,

What about receiver local oscillator radiation? And intermodulation products caused by differing receivers having different frequency plans? LO radiation is limited if we're talking about a receiver that really meets FCC or European regulations, but where a CE mark can mean 'Chinese Export', who knows? And if you count a GPS as a broadcast receiver meeting EN55013, it can legally emit a VERY big signal.

[strake]

Oh God no, please,please no...not another GPS in the cabin thread.

"Is the safety briefing really necessary?" thread can't be far away, followed quickly by " Why can't I use my mobile phone immediately after landing?" and then all topped off with a nice "Where are the cabin crew after dinner/first drink/10 minutes etc?"

[PAXboy]

strake, you should know by now that the topics in this cabin come around as frequently as that forlorn back-pack on the carousel, whose strap is loose and flapping along - just waiting to get caught and rip the bag right open.

One of the reasons that this forum is so quick to read is that there is so little new to read. :zzz:

[Contacttower]

Done to death over the years....


LO radiation is limited if we're talking about a receiver that really meets FCC or European regulations


Not really a problem considering we are talking about the Gamin 196 which is designed and approved for use in aircraft. If I remember correctly from the last thread Aer Lingus for example do allow the use of GPS units so this


All airlines require devices which transmit or receive data be switched off or be turned to Flight Safe Mode


is not really true.

[strake]

And it's you, me, and a few others who fumed and foamed and fought the original fights who come back again to shake our heads wearily.
Maybe it's time to retire gracefully and leave it all to Tightslot, whom, I'm beginning to realise, has the patience of a saint....;)

[Contacttower]

Tightslot, whom, I'm beginning to realise, has the patience of a saint....


Indeed, :D:D:D

Although to be fair to those who do ask questions that have been 'done to death' the PPRuNe search function could be a lot better...I mean for an industry that uses so many TLAs having a four word minimum length for search terms is so irritating :ugh:.

[SpamFritters]

Fair points above.

But if someone sees someone with a GPS going.. they will think "oh goody... I can use my X device...."

And so on.

thus everyone thinks it is ok!


Just don't do it and don't argue with the CC.
Whats the point? I certainly don't think you need it to navigate...

:ugh:

[radeng]

Now, Now, you people are forgetting that we get the same safety briefing every flight. In the same way, we get the same topics re-appearing here!

How do the CC know which GPS are good and which aren't? They DON'T! For that matter, if something is marked 'Garmin', is it really, and not a Chinese rip off?

[Contacttower]

How do the CC know which GPS are good and which aren't? They DON'T! For that matter, if something is marked 'Garmin', is it really, and not a Chinese rip off?


Well quite, this is what I think on the subject:

Would a decent GPS system made by the main brands, designed and certified for use in aircraft interfere with other avionics?

Answer, No.

Should GPS systems be allowed on board?

Well arguably not...for exactly the reasons the last two posts have cited.

[Eboy]

Radeng is right. In the process of receiving, receivers "transmit" a low-level RF signal that can cause interference. I understand the BBC uses this phenomenon to detect if a television is on in a home, for tax purposes.

[Contacttower]

Radeng is right. In the process of receiving, receivers "transmit" a low-level RF signal that can cause interference. I understand the BBC uses this phenomenon to detect if a television is on in a home, for tax purposes.


That may once have been true...but nowadays the BBC just seem to make the assumption that all addresses should have a TV licence (making the assumption that every house must have a TV :ugh:). Rather than actually bothering to check whether an address actually has a TV or not :rolleyes:.

[TWApilot]

The idea that a hand-held GPS can cause interference with the airplane or it's instruments is absurd.

Of course, it must be off because the airline's policy says so.

But you must have to think....

If portable GPS devices can legally be used to navigate airplanes in the cockpit (and they are), then how much of a problem can they cause?????

[Eboy]

I generally agree. The RF emitted by such devices, however, adds up. The more portable GPS devices in operation, the greater the level of unwanted radiation. At some point the level is reached when objectionable interference is caused. What is that point? I don't know.

[TightSlot]

The idea that a hand-held GPS can cause interference with the airplane or it's instruments is absurd.

Please, Please, Please... take the trouble to search and read previous posts on this and other threads before posting: Doing so will prevent embarrassment to yourself such as that caused by the above quote. There are people posting on this forum who know what they are talking about, and have the credentials to prove it - Ignoring what they have taken the time and trouble to post simply wastes everybody's time and our server space.

[TWApilot]

Tightslot,

Are you being serious?

Are portable GPS devices not sold specifically for use as aircraft navigation?

I've been a professional airline pilot for almost 20 years. I've used many such devices. I know my passengers have as well.

This whole idea of interference from a GPS which only receives signals (no transmitting capability whatsoever) is ridiculous.

These things ARE USED FOR AIRBORNE NAVIGATION. LEGALLY! Get in practically any general aviation aircraft and you'll see that. They are built for aviation use.

I don't think a passenger switching on the same thing on a commercial flight is going to change things up.

[TightSlot]

TWApilot - I have simply asked that you read previous posts: This may involve your acceptance of the possibility that you are not a definitive authority as a pre-requisite.

There are numerous threads on the subject, in this, and other forums. Most particularly I would draw your attention to posts by radeng (http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?searchid=2544495) who can speak with some experience.

I would further draw your attention to previous threads/posts where the difficulty of effectively policing the use of electronic devices that may not be fully understood either by the crew, the airlines, the passengers, the manufacturers themselves or most commonly some combination of them all, is discussed.

In short - there are a number of intelligent views on the subject. No one person has a monopoly on correct answers, including yourself. Taking the time to actually read previous threads/posts will explain further.

[TWApilot]

Tightslot,

I do not pretend to be an authority on this or any other subject.

Also, it is not required or even suggested that one be an authority on anything to post on this board or any other public board.

I also do not have time to read the scores of back posts on whatever subject I choose to post on. I have a job and a life.

When someone reads a thread and chooses to comment on it, they should feel free to do so without having their feet put to the fire because they are not as versed in the subject as the "experts."

It is people such as yourself cause most people reading boards like this to be lurkers instead of posters. That is a shame. Prior to posting, should a person make certain they've spent sufficient time reading endless pages of back postings and perhaps even outside study to make certain they are not berated and accused of embarrassing themselves since they don't know as much as the "experts" on the subject who read the boards?

That would be absurd. This is a public board for the exchange of RUMORS (as stated in the title) and OPINIONS. I do not say facts, because anyone taking something posted on any public message board as a fact does so at their peril, and that borders on foolishness.

Persons such as yourself take the fun out of sites such as this. How many people would like to post, but choose not to because of responses such as yours?

What a shame.

[Contacttower]

There are numerous threads on the subject, in this, and other forums. Most particularly I would draw your attention to posts by radeng (http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?searchid=2544495) who can speak with some experience.



I feel the need to jump to TWAPilot's defence here. What radeng said in a previous thread wasn't actually relevant to the specific question being asked (see I have read the previous threads) which concerned a specific model of GPS system. What radeng did say was true (I take it) in a broader sense about GPS systems and what may or may not interfere but actually was irrelevant to GPS systems designed, certified and used in aircraft.

It's not really a question of being an 'authority' on anything...its simply a case of knowing that a GPS system designed for use on an aircraft can safely be used in an aircraft.

[PAXboy]

Well, at the risk of really throwing A1 on the flames ...

It is important to say that TightSlot very rarely intervenes. I would say that the kind of replies given in this thread are the strongest I have seen from this most mild of moderators.

The reason that this subject has produced a strong reaction is that it has surfaced here many, many times and all of the questions - and multiple replies - are available. TightSlot is operational cabin crew and has to monitor equipment usage in everyday work and can give good information.

Whilst this forum (and all of PPRuNe) is open for people to post their views etc., bear in mind that we are here because others give their free time to keep the whole show on the road. This system was set up for professional pilots and they have made space available for those of us that wish to play by their rules. If we do not like the rules, we can go. Whilst it is a 'public' board, it is privately owned and run.

As I have said, in the many moons that I have been part of this forum, I have seen nothing but patience and tolerance towards all. What may have tipped the balance is the "Are you being serious?" When TS gets back from work (and regular life, just like TWApilot) to moderate this forum for free - it might be rather galling to have people be so disparaging.

[TightSlot]

OK - enough now!

There are so many irritating things about TWApilot's last post that I've lost the will to lose my temper. If you genuinely cannot understand why you should search for and then read the information that already exists, then there will be nothing that I can say that will change your mind.

Since this thread is no longer about the use of GPS it can be safely closed.