Letter from AIPA to Jet* Pilots

[Jetstarpilot]

Got my letter from President Woods today. I reckon he's highlighted some very good reasons for the JPC to get together with AIPA ASAP!

The company only opened up the EBA early because of the looming pilot shortage and why would we want to lock ourselves in for 5 years:eek:

Labor is bringing in a new bill during Feb which will include a safety net provision of redundancy of 16 weeks! Our eba proposal only has 8:sad:

Collective agreements will be limited to a max of 4 years... again why the rush to lock in 5 years with our skills now so much in demand:ugh:

If we vote this one up fellas we have a key component of our remuneration dependant on the sole discretion of Jet* management:eek:

Not happy Jan about that one!

WE NEED TO VOTE NO TO ROUND ONE and get AIPA in to make sure we cross all the T's and dot our I's. I also want some professionals looking after our interests when it comes time to fight against the ineviatable push by the company to use 457 visas to employ direct entry captains:=

Come on fellas... are you with me:ok:

[linedriva]

I heard a story yesterday saying that J* had been in South Africa recruiting pilots (Not Dec's, but offering six months to command)on 457 visas. Some are in for interviews soon.

[Capt Wally]

Geeeez I wish you guys/gals well for the future 'battle'. It makes me feel sad to see/hear that being in charge of a craft that requires skill & daring to manipulate is a struggle even before you get off the ground!:bored:
The Co's are leaning on the fact that you/me/I/we love flying & therefore use that love to their advantage when it comes to T&C's by way of giving you the least for gaining the most.
Am rooting for you lot;)
Remember they may take away yr entitlements, they may take away yr stability & they may even take away yr basic rights given enough wearing down but they'll never take away yr freedom !!!

CW:)

[blueloo]

:D I feel like painting my face blue and white.

[CaptainSouth]

:)Been said before,but now is the time for ALL QF group pilots to band together,put aside past resentments and stand united against this most devisive of management teams.
AIPA's push for a Group Opportunity List has the best chance of success in this current environment of pilot shortage.Only a very short sighted management would not be able to see the advantage to be gained in retaining it's key staff...it's pilots...and providing it's pilots with the ability to move from type to type, shorthaul to longhaul, LCC vs mainline, regional to mainline etc.
As a group, rather than sneering at each other and resenting the LCC guys...or sneering at the mainline "legacy carrier" doomed pilots, let the NEW AIPA help to acheive the best result for ALL QF Group pilots.

Here's hoping!!

[rescue 1]

why would we want to lock ourselves in for 5 years

Because aviation is cyclic, and given the recent Share Market collapse off the back of less than exciting US economic data, the demand for travel will/may be scaled back.

Lock in the good stuff during high demand periods, rather than risk re-negotiating during an economic slump.

[Capt Basil Brush]

I don't know if the offer has appeared on here yet, but a mate of a mate in J* (so may not be 100% accurate) told me it was very ordinary, and it's no wonder J* would want it locked in for 5 years, nearly a year before its due.

The guts of it was;
3% increase on signing - A320 145K and A330 165K,
6% retention bonus paid every 2 years,
A profit share plan for Capts initially, and FO's after 3 yrs,
a couple of more days off per month,
overtime above 75hrs at something like $200/hr for Capt's.

There is more likely more to it, one would hope so.

Its no wonder V Aust are only offering 180 - 210K for 777 Capts, when they look at what the opposition are accepting.

Vote it down and get proper representation. (if that's possible these days?)

[Capt Kremin]

According to IFALPA in their latest mag, there are 350,000 airline pilots globally and they are retiring at a rate of 15000-20000 p.a.

Their replacements are coming through at a rate of 3500-5000 p.a.

IFALPA has done the figures on the pilots required to fly the aircraft currently on order from the major manufacturers for delivery in the next few years and they will require 108,000 pilot to fly them.

Some of those aircraft will be for replacements of current fleets, but IFALPA makes the point that most older fleets got shaken out in the aftermath of 2001. They estimate that 30% of these aircraft are replacements and the rest are expansion. That would generate a need for 75,000 pilots over and above the current population.

If 50% of these aircraft are replacements, then the new pilot requirements numbers are still 55,000, in a time of actual declining numbers.

Even the US going into recession will not be enough to lessen the impact of these numbers.

Jetstar pilots, it's time to take a small punt on your futures... say no to this offer and sign any counter-offer under the new workplace laws, not the current Workchoices insult.

You have nothing to lose. If the Group allocation list gets up then you still get your Jetstar commands before anyone else plus, as a bonus, a number on the mainline and Qantaslink lists.

As a by-product, the mainline FO's and SO's who eventually come across to fly with you will thank you. It is a no-brainer if you ask me.

[Mstr Caution]

I wonder what it would take for the J* pilot group to transfer to AIPA in droves?

A loss of job security or potential growth perhaps?

How quick can the rug be pulled to potential expansion?

How often is the Qantas group flying plan reviewed?

Did someone say Australian Airlines.:8

[Just Relaxin]

Can’t help but agree with most of the sentiments expressed above with the following reservation. AIPA’s proposal for a Group Opportunity Allocation List and push for each of the industrial councils to work together is not about a grab for power.

AIPA is not out to start a turf war but rather is attempting to ensure the lawn is made bigger for everyone to stroll on and is made of a (insert here a nice type of grass – as I am no horticulturalist!).

There was a comment on another thread, which is now locked, to the effect that the proposals are aimed at QF mainline pilots usurping all of the commands in Jetstar. Nothing could be further from the truth. A GOAL ensures that any pilot within his own airline is guaranteed first refusal on any promotional position before anyone from the other group airlines can bid for it. Further he always retains that right and seniority even if he does not take a slot when it is first available. This is exactly how it works in mainline with the Q and A pilots combined list.

I would also take this opportunity to again point out that in the EBA vote that is about to commence that Jetstar pilots are voting on a non-union collective agreement. Make no mistake; no union has any respondency to the proposed agreement. If the EBA is voted up you will be specifically locking out any union representation for 5 years. Think very carefully before ticking the yes or no box.

[TurbTool]

Just Relaxin, your view is in direct opposition to the AFAP's view that they are currently a party to and bound by the current Jetstar Agreement. Do you know something that they don't?

How do you know that the proposed Jetstar Agreement would lock out union representation. Friends of mine there tell me that the agreement provides for representation from a Union or any other person of the pilots choice. They say it does not lock out union representation. Are you certain of this fact?

Mstr caution, we have already seen what it takes for Qantas pilots to transfer to Jetstar in droves. Droves so big that QF management put a stop to it. But you are right of course, when push comes to shove, most pilots will do what they think they have to in order to ensure their survival.

[Mstr Caution]

Turb Tool,

I hardly think there was a max exodus from QF mainline to Jetstar.

Do you really think that management put a stop to the transfer fearing they would loose mainline pilots in "droves" or was it because:

1. They know the master plan & know where the massive expansion (read: establishment numbers) will ocurr in the next few years.

2. Already manage who goes where within the group.

3. Have realised the value of the individuals they have trained & developed within mainline & recognise their importance to mainline expansion.

4. Are planning for the actual pilot shortage of current & potential recruits.:8

[Just Relaxin]

TurbTool

If you click on this link http://www.airc.gov.au/awards/tracee/agreements/pdf/AG843278.pdf (http://www.airc.gov.au/awards/tracee/agreements/pdf/AG843278.pdf) you will see the current Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005 which does not expire until 29 September 2008. This has been opened early and is the vote that is about to take place for the new EBA.

Search the document carefully and you will see there is absolutely no reference anywhere to the AFAP. Why, if as you say, they are saying they are “currently a party to and bound by the current Jetstar Agreement” is beyond me and is quite simply not borne out by the facts. The AFAP is not a party to the current Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005.

If you search the new offer you will similarly see that there is no mention of the AFAP in that document either. There is an incredible amount of mis-information being peddled by parties at the moment and I believe the JPA should be clarifying to all Jetstar pilots what they are actually voting for before the vote takes place.

[Packs on]

Just voted "NO".

I hope my colleagues follow suit. We can then sit down with both unions and the JPA to nut out a better deal. This is a wonderful opportunity which could be the catalist for both unions to work together for the first time.

Vote wisely fellas.

[Jetstarpilot]

Just heard from a mate in QANTAS mainline that Allan Joyce and President Woods agreed to meet mid February to discuss AIPA's coverage of all Qantas Group Pilots and the Group Opportunity Allocation List.:eek:

We have never been in a better bargaining position guys... lets VOTE NO to round one and give AIPA and our mainline collegues a show of our good faith (and something to bargain with;))

[Wingspar]

Wise to get the best deal and a combined effort is essential considering we are about to enter the downward side in the economic cycle.
I think the proposed JQ expansion will not proceed as planned unfortunately so best to use all you've got.

[fearcampaign]

Some good posts here.

I can only think of positives for both Jetstar and Qantas pilots.

A group opportunity list will provide more options for everyone whilst keeping a united front.The Qantas group would love us to remain divided and to fight between each other. Lets F%#@ their plans to keep us divided.

If you want to stay on the A320 for years then you have that choice but at some point individuals may feel like a change and this will make it possible.Greater choices are a bonus for both groups.

A united union will be stronger and have far more influence on Qantas management.To jump in now to a collective AWA seems daft.

There will always be sceptics but the majority of both Jetstar and Qantas pilots are hardworking good people who both deserve good union representation and decent conditions to go with it.

Here is a great chance to unite all Qantas Group pilots.Time to grow up, ignore the company spin and the moaners and move forward for the good of all group pilots.:)

Perhaps we should organise a piss up and a BBQ with both JQ and QF flight crew. I'm sure then we would all realise that there are great guys and girls in both Jetstar and Qantas.:)

[drshmoo]

About time the QANTAS group started to act like a group.

I'll bring a case of beer to this BBQ MR "fearcampaign". I'm sure we can arange some of the Dash boyz too.

In fact why don't the Jet* boyz bring some of those flash young hosties and I'll help work on some intergroup relations:}:ok:

[toolish]

Just voted "NO".

I hope my colleagues follow suit. We can then sit down with both unions and the JPA to nut out a better deal. This is a wonderful opportunity which could be the catalist for both unions to work together for the first time.

Vote wisely fellas.

Well said Packs On I agree completely lets VOTE NO get the unions involved and watch them sweat a little.:D

This type of thread should have been the norm for the last 3 years, you get my point boys

[Flava Saver]

I also just voted NO.

It seems bizzare that the JPA are recommending a yes vote, and yet BOTH AIPA and AFAP are recommeding a no vote.

Hopefully when this gets voted down next week, there will be an internal election amongst Jetstar pilots, and we can get a new pilot council that we an have some faith & trust in, instead of selling us out for a minor monetry gain. Aligning ourselves with AIPA and making the QF GROUP pilots a force to be reckoned with against Dixon & Joyce.

Big picture stuff here guys. The Low Cost is behind the flight deck door, NOT forward of it. :D

BTW, the vibe now after Lawrie Cox and Ian Woods wrote to us, has opened the eyes of quite a few of the yes voters. Here's hoping!

[Bazzamundi]

Would it not be good to see the executives sweat if both the Jetstar and QF longhaul EBA's are together not done and dusted (ie. voted down) in the coming months. Especially if they are at least talking to each other (not saying they have to be in bed together, but a start would be good). Look at the improved deal QF shorthaul got after voting theirs down twice.

Why did QF spend so much money opposing AIPA in the courts in being allowed to represent all QF group pilots? Would it not be because they are concerned about the impact to themselves if it occurred? No doubt it is in the interests of the company if the current situation prevails. Lets learn from that at least.

Time to get together, even if the two bodies still exist, to at least share resources and goals. Together we may achieve more.

[G Cantstandya]

I just voted NO and it felt good......

i hope my fellow workers follow suit..

We have been at the mercy of B.A, and the rest of his mates on the JPA/C whatever the call themselves, for too long and i'm hoping that a NO vote will mean the endd of the JPA as a stand alone entity.

At present there is a poll going on, on our private forum, so far the overwhelming majority has chosen to have some kind of union represenation, with AIPA ahead of the AFAP.

I hope the sellserves on the JPA are listening and they start working for the entire pilot group, not just themselves..

[SubsonicMortal]

Gentleman

Ive been following threads in the D&G zone recently as I have never done before. I am expecting some fire and harsh comments to come my way given the fact that I am one of those "outsiders" being looked at for joining JetStar. I have recently been invited by JetStar to attend a selection process in South Africa and given the facts that JetStar is a growing company and based in Australia, I am finding the idea very attractive to move accross.

However, I can see there are a lot of unhappiness here regarding a so called recent letter from management. I lost track of the subject being discussed after I got down to the first page of this thread. I would be grateful if someone could explain what the issues are that the pilots are facing at the moment and what the cause for frustrations are right now.

The company only opened up the EBA early because of the looming pilot shortage and why would we want to lock ourselves in for 5 years:eek:

What exactly is this about?

If we vote this one up fellas we have a key component of our remuneration dependant on the sole discretion of Jet* management:eek:

And this?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

SSM

PS, In the event of success, I will be no DEC!

[SumFingWong]

I have no doubt that appathy will win the day, many wont vote and the silent majority will vote YES for not other reason than they believe the threats ("this is our final offer") and are desperate for the 3% (about 3 grand for a skipper after tax).


What amuses me most is that for the last twelve months, after beer and girls, cockpit conversation invariabley turns to "how the company farked me over last month"/"joycie is a prick"/"howard is a prick"etc etc etc and after all that chest beating and d!ck waving, these exact people are going to lock us in for 5 years to a "workchoices" EBA when legislation to reverse some of it goes to parliment in a matter of months !

Is it worth rushing into an average deal that locks us in for yrs for 3k ?!

No but pilots are weak as piss when it comes to a ballot.

[VH-JJW]

Hey G,

Can't wait to see your name on the list of nominees for the next JPA. :D

[G Cantstandya]

Hey JJW,

I take it your a JPA member or one of their mates.......

I won't be applying for a position on the JPA becasue i'm a pilot and that's it...

Maybe if the JPA boys took that stance and stopped pretending they are anything other than pilots maybe we would get somewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the work they do, but I feel they are way out of their league, and for their members to continually tell us that this bull**** EBA4 is a good deal and sign it or the world will stop spinning, I feel questions the intelligence of the pilot group!!

[VH-JJW]

I take it your a JPA member or one of their mates.......

Good mates actually, Guilt by association eh.

I won't be applying for a position on the JPA becasue i'm a pilot and that's it...

Yes its called Jetstar PILOTS Association.

Maybe if the JPA boys took that stance and stopped pretending they are anything other than pilots maybe we would get somewhere.

Maybe, Maybe Maybe. By the way, when did the Presidents and Committees of AIPA and the AFAP stop flying?

So if you don't pretent to be anything other than a pilot, and that is what you believe the JPA should be, then why again would you not put your hand up? You are obviously an expert, in touch with your fellow pilots, after all why else would you be posting your drivel here rather than webgroups.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the work they do,

Yeah right, more like slag them off anonomously like a gutless prat.

but I feel they are way out of their league,

I would reverse that.

and for their members to continually tell us that this bull**** EBA4 is a good deal and sign it or the world will stop spinning, I feel questions the intelligence of the pilot group!!

Well, I am certainly not questioning yours. :E

[G Cantstandya]

JJW

Question....

If everyone is so happy with the JPA, why is the overwhelming majority choosing to have union representation on the poll currently being conducted? (i think it's around 90%)

The JPA have a conflict of interest, therefore a union is must when it comes to dealing with the company..

Lets face it, Joyce and his crew have been trying to screw us for years, i'm fine with that, its their job, so we have to have someone who willing to fight them at their level!! That's all i am saying.

[VH-JJW]

Something about arguing with................

G. - how about not distorting the facts.

The results of the poll so far are that the VAST MAJORITY of pilots want JPA involvement, mostly in conjunction with a union.

I believe that the JPA have been seeking to achieve this for some time, however with the pilot group split between AIPA and the AFAP the question has always been which one.

Do not post personal opinions and pass them off as facts. I assume you are reading the same poll results I am or are you running your own secret personal poll? :8

By the way, nice to know that you are fine with being screwed. ;)

[VH-JJW]

Hey G.

How come if you are a Jetstar pilot, your public profile lists you as a 747 pilot?

You know Jetstar only have Airbus, dont you?

[Keg]

By the way, when did the Presidents and Committees of AIPA and the AFAP stop flying?

AIPA's president traditionally has flown about a 1/3 of a line and possibly less. I'm not sure how much flying WoodI is doing at the moment given the fact that the company turned their back on the MoU for flying relief. :mad:

Further, AIPA has a full time General Manager and a bunch of full time staff in the office to support their activities. JPA has???

[permFO]

And AIPA has been in existence for 20+ years and has access to how much money to fund their office and office managers? The JPA are a small group who have managed to obtain for their constituency more money and better equipment than they were originally flying, albeit on the back of some favourable Board decisions.

The time has come however to move to better resourced representation as Jetstar continues to grow. I don't however see AIPA as being the automatic body of choice. I am a little bit cynical about both the AFAP and AIPA appealing to us now about voting no. They were both aware of the EBA's negotiation and of the voting timetable. Why don't they conduct their own roadshows at their own expense if they are so interested in representing Jetstar pilots. Whoever manages to represent the majority of Jetstar pilots stand to gain quite a windfall in subscriptions so I think they should start lobbying personally and not through the expedient of emails.

[gondwalla]

Can you guys in Jetstar or any Yarpie reading this confirm or deny Jetstar is recruiting from South Africa. If so under what immigration status are these pilots coming.
If you guys in Jetstar lock yourselves into this low bar EBA for 5 years then you are doing yourselves an injustice. Q SH guys knocked their first EBA offer back(which was much better than the JStar offer) and were very quickly offered another better deal.
I know a lot of JStar guys come from some pretty rough backgrounds but that should not continue to taint your thinking.
VOTE NO and demand justice, not only is your pay worlds worst but check out your conditions and rostering practices.
Any ex EK drivers in JStar care to inform their work colleagues how much of a bad deal they are on?:ouch:

[permFO]

I assume the QF SH deal that was knocked back was negotiated by AIPA?

[Keg]

G'day permFO. When put to the vote the knocked back proposal wasn't endorsed by AIPA COM- or even the negotiators themselves- as being acceptable. The negotiators said very clearly that they had gone as far as they could at that time and it was up to the members to say yes or no- and that they wanted a resounding 'no' vote. They got that, they went back and the company came up with a significantly enhanced offer.

[Dropt McGutz]

permFO, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about AIPA.

[blow.n.gasket]

Not to mention Qantas too!:eek:

[TurbTool]

GC, could you elaborate on the conflict of interest the JPA allegedly have. I am sure the Jetstar pilots would be interested to find out before they cast their vote.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Perm FO said
Why don't they conduct their own roadshows at their own expense if they are so interested in representing Jetstar pilots

Just like the JPC do hey:rolleyes:

I have knowledge of the JPC conducting "roadshows" in Cairns not using staff travel but on confirmed tickets laid on by the company:eek:

As Keg pointed out - the company reneged on a negotiated time relief arrangement (read paid for in past eba's) for the AIPA President when the company yes men of AIPA past were replaced by the QF pilot body - he (and his reps) now have worked for the betterment of their colleagues on days off and holidays :(

We have been given an insight here that AIPA and AFAP have detailed compelling reasons to vote no in the first instance individually to all Jet Star Pilots.

I have yet to read 1 good reason to vote yes. Have the JPC put forward their compelling reasons to the Pilot body?

[fistfokker]

I have knowledge of the JPC conducting "roadshows" in Cairns not using staff travel but on confirmed tickets laid on by the company

You make it sound as if this a bad thing. How could it be. It is something the JPA negotiated with J*. If the AIPA can't negotiate a deal like that then what else could you expect them to negotiate.

As Keg pointed out - the company reneged on a negotiated time relief arrangement (read paid for in past eba's) for the AIPA President when the company yes men of AIPA past were replaced by the QF pilot body - he (and his reps) now have worked for the betterment of their colleagues on days off and holidays

The JPA have a bank of days for time relief, something else thay negotiated. It is used for JPA/pilot purposes. Where there are mutual J*/JPA business, e.g negotiations, roadshows etc the Company provides the days. Something else they negotiated. Seems to me the JPA were able to swing a better deal than AIPA here too. At no cost to the J* pilots. Before you all suggest they must be in the Company's pocket consider what would the advantage to the individuals be, to have travel and time provided by the Company. Certainly no personal gain.

We have been given an insight here that AIPA and AFAP have detailed compelling reasons to vote no in the first instance individually to all Jet Star Pilots.

I have yet to read 1 good reason to vote yes. Have the JPC put forward their compelling reasons to the Pilot body?

Of course they have. I would imagine they just don't feel the need to post on this forum.

[CaptCloudbuster]

The JPA have a bank of days for time relief, something else thay negotiated. It is used for JPA/pilot purposes. Where there are mutual J*/JPA business, e.g negotiations, roadshows etc the Company provides the days. Something else they negotiated. Seems to me the JPA were able to swing a better deal than AIPA here too.

Do I need to point out the obvious again Fistfokker?:ugh:

Let me say again S L O W L Y. AIPA negotiated the same type of deal with QF which QF has chosen to UNILATERILY withdraw


Before you all suggest they must be in the Company's pocket consider what would the advantage to the individuals be, to have travel and time provided by the Company.

What I am highlighting is that QF management had a similar deal with AIPA which was withdrawn when AIPA stopped trotting out the company spin.

Are the JPC currently pushing Jet* Management spin? From my point of view (and I have seen the EBA proposal) it appears sadly so.

I don't know what their motivation is to wholeheartedly support this rushed EBA when balance of power rests in the hands of the Jet Star pilot body.

From a Mainline perspective we have seen a past President of our negotiating body become Chief Pilot. Knowing our employers past tactics they could have been offered anything to get this EBA over the line.

Open your eyes Guys / Girls. We Mainline Pilots ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY

[fistfokker]

Let me say again S L O W L Y. AIPA negotiated the same type of deal with QF which QF has chosen to UNILATERILY withdraw

Was it in your EBA as it is in J*'s? I get your point however my point is that the AIPA are saying to us we can save you from.....??????? but AIPA cannot even enforce its own agreement with QF. How is that supposed to give us confidence.

I do not consider mainline pilots to be the enemy, nor do I consider AIPA to be the enemy. I just don't like outsiders assuming and posting that our JPA is the enemy or that we as J* pilots are the enemy if we choose a different path to you. As for your SLOWLY comment, if condescending lecturing is the best I can expect from an association with mainline pilots or the AIPA then we surely have a long way to go before we can work together for the common good.

You, of course are entitled to your opinion as well.

[gondwalla]

Fistfokker, some of us on this website have been flying for 20 years plus most of which has been with the major airlines.
What you guys need to understand is that you are being taken for a ride by AJ.
You will all eventually work it out but it normally takes 5 years + by which time you have not only stuffed it for yourselves but for Q pilots too.
You can never trust airline management in this country they have lied and cheated for a very long time and thats not about to change with GD and AJ at the wheel.
Please Jetstar pilots wake up and take these people on. What have u got to lose....your birthday?
VOTE NO....Go for a better deal. Talk to AIPA not JPC...they are towing the AJ line!!!!

[mustafagander]

Fisty, time relief for AIPA officials was in the EBA but AFAIK there was some sort of legal problem so it was agreed that some items (I think it was 2 but can't remember the other) were to be transferred to MOU without further negotiation. That guarantee was in the paperwork sent out to the troops and the EBA was voted up on that basis. As we now know, GD simply reneged on the deal, making him a liar and a thief - after all, we pilots paid for the time relief in earlier EBAs.

As for enforcement, AIPA has been in court on this one for some time. I fail to see why it is taking the bewigged people so long, it looks pretty clear to me - you guys do this (vote up the EBA) and in return we (Charlie Q) will do that, including (explicitly) time relief MOU. There isn't much more AIPA can do under the still current industrial law.

[gondwalla]

Jetstar pilots....be aware a yes vote introduces a B scale for new intakes. This is not a good idea in any airline particularly one that has worlds worst conditions.
The rot starts at the bottom guys....VOTE NO!

[CaptCloudbuster]

I just don't like outsiders assuming and posting that our JPA is the enemy or that we as J* pilots are the enemy if we choose a different path to you.

Unfortunately Fistfokker the conditions you guys at Jet* agree to will directly affect my working conditions.

The Impulse pilots had a gun put to their head.

The Jet* International conditions were negotiated in secret by the JPC unnecessarily.

This time round there are no excuses.

*we don't have to like each other to understand we need each other*

I'm prepared to work together for our common good, will you join me?

Vote NO and let AIPA help you guys get a better deal

[genex]

"Vote NO and let AIPA help you guys get a better deal"

Ha ha...best laugh I've had in weeks.

Those guys have been in lotus land for over 20 years, wouldn't know an industrial tactic if they fell over one and simply want everything on mainline T & C with big white rats on every tail.....while outside in the real world....the growth and jobs go to other carriers.

It was funny but why do I feel like crying?

[ACMS]

Well then Genex, you deserve what you get. Good luck.

For the sake of us here at CX I hope you get a good deal, although with guys like you in J* I think I know what to expect.:D

[Chimbu chuckles]

For the sake of us here at CX I hope you get a good deal

Anyone else notice how these threads on J*'s EBA are all about everyone else's want list, notably QF pilots and those currently wishing to return from OS be it CX, KA or EK?

Now far be it for me to suggest they are prodding strangers from behind to go out and do their bidding with no attendant risk to themselves but I seem to remember CX pilot's, in particular, have a little history in this respect.

If, by some bizarre aligning of the stars, the J* pilot group actually voted down this EBA based on this prodding from pilot groups not currently employed by J*, and it blew up in the faces of the current J* pilot group and they ended up on worse/no better T&Cs what do you think would be the reaction of these disparate groups?

It would be "Oh well, **** it...I have still got my current CX/KA A/B scale so it aint a biggy...shame they couldn't pull it off though...I'd would have been great to move back to Oz and live in my nice house with my kids in private school on mainline QF T&Cs"

Meanwhile the QF mainline boys and girls would be going "Oops...well bugga...that didn't work...doesn't effect me thank god"

This is a turf war between AIPA and AFAP...both sides are lieing and the J* pilot group are the bunnies in the middle.

[Keg]

Meanwhile the QF mainline boys and girls would be going "Oops...well bugga...that didn't work...doesn't effect me thank god"

Here is where you are wrong Chim Chuck. It does and will not just QF drivers but all pilots in Australia- no matter what the result.

There is no doubt that J* will continue to expand and require more crew. I'd like some of the F/O gigs that are going to be created to go to our hard working S/Os- many of whom have been in Qantas for longer than J* has existed. When seniority allows (so that we're not gazumping those already at J* but I would like to see a line in the sand drawn soon) it'd be great if some of our F/Os could get a command slot. I also happen to think it'd be great for a J* F/O to get a look at a mainline type also when their seniority allows. If/when this all occurs then all QF drivers have a direct interests in the conditions at J* being as good as possible.

The second reason why this affects everyone is because a J* pilot group with under done conditions threatens all of us in the industry. If they remain a very low benchmark then this impacts on not just QF drivers but DJ drivers also. Australian pilots need to try and remove this wedge of 'but the pilots in the other airline don't get paid much and we need to be competitive'. Competitive J* conditions make that much more difficult.

Finally, I have a huge moral issue with people doing essentially the same job for significantly differing conditions- especially when it is the management wallas who get the bonuses for this travesty. J* pilots should have better conditions- as should DJ pilots also- and I fully support them in that endeavour. J* pilots have at their possible disposal the combined assets and talents of 2500 QF pilots. Whilst AIPA isn't perfect and doesn't always get it right I'd prefer to be one group working in the same direction then two or three different groups all heading off in different directions.

One horse on it's own can pull 800 kgs worth of goods. Two horses together can achieve two tonne. There is strength in pulling together in the same direction. Now is the time.

[Scumfish]

I think that some of you Jetstar people ought to wake up and realise that management really are screwing you. Management will take advantage of a disenfranchised group, such as yourselves, and that group will be the poorer for it. Think about it this way. Do you really want management to get bigger bonus's because YOU voted for a lousy deal? Why should the money go into THEIR pockets rather than yours? Wouldn't it be better that it went into YOUR pocket rather than theirs? You would have to be naive to think that this offer is all the company could afford or has planned. Any company going into an EBA wants the cheapest outcome but they also budget for a greater outcome. If they don't have to shell out for that greater outcome, obviously the company (and execs) sees themselves as having an unexpected, and in their eyes, favourable bonus. BE CAREFUL.

[tenretni]

To some of the critics out there in Jetstar, have you ever sat down to think why it was that Qantas and Jetstar both appealed the decision by the IRC allowing AIPA the right to represent you guys?

Think about it!

For those trying to decide between AIPA and the AFAP just remember that what we at QF are about is solidarity, a united front.

Choose the AFAP and we might as well forget about it!

So please think very carefully.

[QFinsider]

Wedge politics nothing new..

Throw in some envy and you have the recipe that Dixon(hence the lil fella) via Oldmeadow has been mixing for nearly on 20 years...:=

[Condition lever]

For the sake of us here at CX I hope you get a good deal, although with guys like you in J* I think I know what to expect.

Does anyone else see the hypocracy of a CX pilot asking every one else to protect their pay?
The home of B scale and now C scale pay - perhaps if you hadn't bent over and allowed DE-FO pay in Aus to drop to $92K the J* pilots would have had more ammunition to bargain for better conditions.
The same position at J* under the offer would attract a $106K base pay and the potential for a command in 2 - 4 years.
So at least when CX was paying $120K there was the opportunity to compare less favourably the conditions on offer.

[Veruka Salt]

The home of B scale and now C scale pay - perhaps if you hadn't bent over and allowed DE-FO pay in Aus to drop to $92K the J* pilots would have had more ammunition to bargain for better conditions.

Actually, Condition Lever, the CX Pilot body voted down the original $92K deal in late 2006, but the company imposed it anyway effective 2008. Labour law is different in Hong Kong! CX Pilots had no say in the matter...

[genex]

Chimbu has encased it all in a nutshell. Read it a second time. Everyone wants JQ pilots to make the world better for all of us.

Keg, in his inimitable well-meaning way has shown some of the key the logic underpinning AIPA thinking. Let's all have more pay....let our "hard working" S/O s have some of those choice JQ slots (I'd work hard too for 150 k and no actual responsibility) and lets limit JQ growth then....(this bit is implicit) fold it back into QF mainline.

Problem is....JQ is a different business. Much more rapid growth....no Heritage fleet units (744, 743, 767, 737) and no "we've always done it like this". Maybe this is what it felt like in the British Army 100 years ago when the Colonel Blimps were desperate to ensure that those bright scarlet jackets and horse cavalry would always stay. But THE WORLD HAS CHANGED. It change for them, it has changed for us. There are jet jobs for everyone. That is unprecedented and wonderful. And for Qantas S/Os too timid to jump and build a decent future....stay with the Heritage fleet. Based on past practice QF will operate the 747 for another 30 years so you'll get the career you wanted.

Anyway....to get empirical....if there are 2500 QF Heritage drivers and there are say (I have no idea as I don't fly for them) 500 JQ drivers. Then if the Heritage drivers all committed to a $2000 a month levy that would give each JQ pilot $10,000 a month strike pay if they go out to ensure that the Heritage drivers lifestyles are supported in perpetuity. Cathay drivers could kick in.

If I get a 320 job with JQ (have no interest in that but let's pretend) then I personally will join any strike where the Heritage pilots put their money where their mouth is and support my lfe the way they would want me to support theirs.

Fair enough? Read what Chimbu said again.


And the "foldback" option is a green light for VB, Tiger et al.....to really go to town.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Genex said
Then if the Heritage drivers all committed to a $2000 a month levy that would give each JQ pilot $10,000 a month strike pay if they go out to ensure that the Heritage drivers lifestyles are supported in perpetuity.

What a load of :mad: hyperbole!

No one is asking Jet* Pilots to strike. What we are asking is Jet* Pilots vote no to round 1 of negotiations.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your faces:ugh:

[genex]

So....we are all trained to have good Situational Awareness. Let's see....on this very thread the CX pilots announced that they had been royally done over by their management. And in a similar way AIPA was unilaterally rolled by GD.

But you'd both like the JQ drivers to go for a "Third Time Lucky" approach which will ensure you guys, the Heritage drivers.....get the vicarious pleasure of pushing for someone else (they are not in your union, they are despised by your members and in a completely different business) fto take some form of action (which to win hands down could end in a strike) in which you pay no price, and take no risk. And the "Hard working" Heritage drivers get all the best jobs whatever happens.

Hmmmmmm.....I must be missing something. Or maybe not. I think I'm going to have to buy shares in Tiger, Virgin, Singapore, Lion and Emirates. The true winners if JQ pilots vote to join the past. A few years before deregulation hit Australia the Heritage drivers left the AFAP to ensure they could go it alone. Well please do so. I think most of the rest of Australia would rather have the jobs than stand at the airport fence watching the white gloved and silk scarfed Heritage drivers give a regal wave as they taxi past.

[OneDotLow]

Have a think about that response to a perfectly reasonable post from a fellow professional aviator.

Brgds,

Much Ado

[Gnadenburg]

Here is where you are wrong Chim Chuck. It does and will not just QF drivers but all pilots in Australia- no matter what the result.

I agree. Set a bench mark and it affects many near and far.

I recall on these pages years ago, pilots stating the conditions of service they were accepting wouldn't affect anyone- the Virgin Blue driver paying for his endorsement or the Impulse 717 pilot working for bugger all.

Mesh the two and you have the situation now! Pilots paying for their endorsements and being paid a low wage.

But it doesn't affect anyone! :ugh:

[genex]

Gnad....add to that list the QF Heritage drivers being way too gutless to ensure they had a working Scope Clause which would have ensured that everyone in the Group had a single list and single T & C.

But even having said that....what does the Group as a whole do, safe and secure in its little introspective world.....when Tiger comes? Virgin? Lion? SIA? Nothing?

I still can't quite see why JQ pilots have to secure the T and C of all pilots. The EBA from what little I know doesn't seem horrible. All the pilots are volunteers as far as I know. If it causes grief to AIPA let them start an action programme involving themselves. It might take a lot of grief and pain and lost days form mainline pilots to get that Scope Clause back (because that's what we're really talking about).....but it would give AIPA what they want. It wouldn't stop there being several Jetstar clones but it would at least enable all Heritage pilots to be paid the same as the good ship Qantas sinks slowly in the west.

[Capt Basil Brush]

Chimbu says;

If, by some bizarre aligning of the stars, the J* pilot group actually voted down this EBA based on this prodding from pilot groups not currently employed by J*, and it blew up in the faces of the current J* pilot group and they ended up on worse/no better T&Cs

Thats exactly what management want pilot groups to think - if it gets voted down the sky will fall in.

Virgin pulled this tactic out of the bag for round two, and unfortunately 53% fell for it. (many who are now saying "what was I thinking!!)

[VH-JJW]

Nice try Genex and Chimbu, however logic has no place in the land of Mainline.

Funny isn't it. People normally considered intelligent putting forth arguments which make no sense, on subject matter to which they have no idea, and attempting to pervert an outcome to which they are not directly affected by.

Sort of like playing God for sport.

Perhaps the QF band here would like to tell us all WHY AIPA are recommending a NO vote for the Jetstar EBA?

I'll give you a hint....... a really really big one....... it is NOT, I repeat NOT because of the money.

I SAY AGAIN..... It is NOT because of the Money.

But I guess you all already knew that.:yuk:

[ACMS]

The CX union Pilot's overwhelmingly voted to reject the C scale on the Oz basing. CX then chose to impose it. WHY? because thet T & C's for Oz Pilot's is going down the toilet fast and they thought they could get away with it.

So my point is valid, I hope the J* Pilot's say NO to their EBA offer.

I don't want CX getting any more ammunition to drag down the pay in Oz.

Ok? Do you get it now?

[fistfokker]

Mustafagander, thank you for your response. Great to see someone who can post rationally. I appreciate that things don't always work out as we have in mind and can be quite difficult to correct.

Cloudy, happy to work with you. Will your offer still be open if the J* pilots vote YES. It will take time to win each others trust, but the AIPA have only just come onto our radar effectively.

gondwalla, your posts are not worth responding to.

tenretni, I agree with you, this appears to be more about AIPA vs AFAP than anything to do with the J* eba. Thank you for your insightful comments. I think they will be very helpful to those J* pilots who have been undecided. After all the controversy seems to be more about WHO negotiates on behalf of J* pilots than the actual content of the EBA.

Chimbu, as always very logical, sadly lost on the emotive posters. I struggle with the concept "CX screwed us, we voted against it, but because of those J* pricks we had no choice but to accept terms/conditions that we did not like, to work in an AUS base. C'mon you J* guys, you must hold out for a better deal for our sake."

genex, great posts, keep it up.

To all other posters on this topic, some rational and others not, I have lost interest in this thread and will not bother with it any more.

Bring on the vote result.

[max autobrakes]

Bring on the Recession I say!
Lets see just how everyone ends up then.
Will the all conquering JetStar/JPC Ansett BBQ Brigade, reign supreme or will the "Heritige Airline" APIA led chappies pip them at the post?:bored:

[fearcampaign]

Genex,

I really find it hard to accept your negative spin with a divide the troops mentality.

You are playing into the hands of Oldmeadow and his divide and conquer strategy.What is your agenda? Why are you scared of a unified group?

Stop digging up old wounds and get on with the future.

A future where Jetstar, Qantas and Eastern pilots are under the one banner and can fight together as a well funded and unified group.
We all fly aircraft of different kinds and most Jetstar, Eastern and Qantas pilots are good, honest, hardworking professionals.

AIPA may have had a bad rap in the past but a dodgy deal was done where the ex president of AIPA told Jetstar pilots to get nicked and was made the chief pilot only weeks later.An appointment made by Geoff Dixon to ensure that the Jetstar workforce was not unionised.
QF pilots hate the chief pilot as most were smart enough to realise that a unified group was essential and saw the obvious conflict of interest.

The company then "spin" us lies that each "group" is the baddie.Qantas is full of old cronies.Jetstar is full of low hour beginners.What tosh!!! Both are untrue!!! Let us not be so stupid as to take the bait and infight.

It is a new day with a unique opportunity to unite our workforces.

Take a look at military and industrial history for the results of divided units.Unity will always provide a stronger force.

Let us all grow up, unite the Jetstar and Qantas group pilots and look positively toward a united pilot group with more options for all

[QFinsider]

Exactly max...

Furlough that yucky US word has never raised its head at Mainline. I wonder why :E

[Normasars]

FEARCAMPAIGN:


TOUCHE:ok:

THE BEST post on this thread.

[Capt Kremin]

I agree. Very good post. Maybe if some of the anti-AIPA brigade here started thinking with their heads we could get somewhere.

By using your heads I mean this; the company's main industrial tactic post Workchoices is going to be divide and conquer. That will only work if your allow your predjudice's to be confirmed by what you choose to hear.

But consider this;

AIPA is the only organisation that has legal coverage of the Qantas group. If we are ever going to be united it cannot be with a mish mash of representational organisations. If that means going to the BALPA umbrella model where every company has its own council which does the industrial negotiations for its particular company, so be it. At least the negotiations would be to a master plan of refusing to allow pilots to be played against each other.

Those of you who bring up ancient history in your zeal to keep AIPA away are playing into the hands of management. No-one is saying that AIPA couldn't have done it much better with the benefit of hindsight. But if we are ever to break this cycle that management plays on ad infinitum, then pilots are going to have to be as smart and professional industrially as the forces pitted against them.

That means using your heads for once.

[permFO]

"If that means going to the BALPA umbrella model where every company has its own council which does the industrial negotiations for its particular company, so be it. At least the negotiations would be to a master plan of refusing to allow pilots to be played against each other."

This would be the best suggestion out of all the postings on this subject. It would allow for differences in issues facing Group airlines to be sorted out at a "local" level while strategic issues can be decided at higher levels. As a start to try and get some unity then the idea of a roadshow by those wanting to represent Jetstar pilots would be welcome. At the end of the roadshow some drinks at the bar where all Group pilots could come along would allow some of the barriers to be broken down.

[Capt Kremin]

PERMFO the organisation already exists. It is called AusALPA but it is toothless at the moment due to the turf wars that have raged up until now.

If anyone reading this post is thinking that the umbrella group is the way to go, lobby your reps and lets get this thing finally doing what it should do, look after the interests of all Australian pilots.