CX/FTA Instructor Secondment

[PapaGolfIndia]

I've heard rumour that CX and FTA have some new scheme coming into play where potential future CX pilots go on 'secondment' to FTA to instruct for 42 months before joining CX as JSO. Apparently a note has been sent out internally about this scheme, but there's nothing on the website about it yet. Can anyone out there give me anymore info? I have a CPL already but not much flying experience...thought this could be a good route to take rather than doing the cadet scheme. Cheers.

[EngineOut]

Basically it is aimed at Junior pilots (even without a CPL yet I believe). If you are successful, you are employed as an instructor in ADL and given a seniority number whilst you are an instructor. After 42 months you move to HK as an SO and it seems a reduced time of about 12 months as an SO before you are upgraded to JFO, as you will already have a seniority number from when you were instructing. The advantage of this is that you are employed on Direct entry SO conditions, which means you get housing etc; a big difference compared with cadets as your housing is nearly as much as your salary as an SO. You will also probably have about 2-3000hrs under your belt. Good move if you ask me, a guaranteed career before you even start! How the industry has changed!

[Oz_TB10]

When i thought the guys at FTA could not get shafted anymore this comes up??? Good luck to the guys and gals both down the road and up the road at Parafield

[skywest_xr]

Made official this week and advertised in Australia.

Open to all nationalities....including Australians, go figure.

www.flighttrainingadelaide.com

Details link from the first page of the website.

[kskc83]

Wow... this is another great opportunity and opened to all nationalities!:ok:

both CX and FTA will gain from this!

[Dub-U!]

Looks like you need to have the right to work/live in Australia though, no talk about visa sponsorship. Great program for ppl living in Australia.

What about the current/future cadets? Are they given the option of staying on as an instructor?

[404 Titan]

Dub-U!

FTA And CX will sponsor candidates for 457 visas if they need to so right to work/live in Australia isn't a requirement.

[futurexpat]

Will FTA accept someone for the program who already holds an FAA Certified Flight Instructor certificate? ( i am assuming this is equivalent to a class 3 certification) . since this program is open to all nationalities I am wondering if it is possible to apply for direct employment as a flight instrucor and complete the grade 2 and 1 certificate at FTA. Anyone know anything about those who are already instructors and want to get into the short term program and transition into CX? Any info will help. Also, any advice on certificate conversion?

futurexpat

[LionRockRSM]

That's a joke!! Stuck for 42 months at Parafield Airport.... I would suggest all of you considering to pass on that one. Or at least visit the place before you sign your lives away. Do your training privately or something, then go out and get a job flying a Navajo or a Metro. You'll get your prerequisite Cathay time way before those 42 months are up and at the end of the day you can say that you have some real experience.... Not experience that entails flying in the circuit all day or doing "IFR" flights in VFR conditions until you are blue in the face....

[NewEssO]

but the advantage of this is that you get a seniority number when you start teaching at FTA, which means at the beginning of the 42 months.

this is like a guaranteed path to cathay from scratch with benefits.

[MidgetBoy]

Wouldn't you be stuck there for more than 42 months.
Convert License
Get instructor rating
Get class 2 instructor rating
Have Cathay Pacific offer you a job.. (they might not still)
and THEN, 42 months.

[MidgetBoy]

I'm not saying it isn't worth a try. But from what I've read on these forums and learned in life is, there's no guarantees. Even if CX says they'd hire you in 42 months, they might not need you anymore. Or something could go wrong in those 42 months.
Wouldn't the license conversion + instructor rating be on our own dime too?

[futurexpat]

Im not sure what the conversion cost is , but Will FTA accept an FAA CFI for the partnership with cathay? I would be willing to convert certificates if I was accepted for employment or further training. Do CFI's who are hired get any connections with Cathay if they do not do the short term program and apply to FTA just to instruct for FTA?

[ReverseFlight]

Regarding MidgetBoy's question, my (uneducated) guess is that the instructor rating for the Short Course should be paid for by CX as is the normal case for the Long Course which includes CPL and MECIR thrown in. The short course candidate would mean much savings for CX even before start anyway. Not so sure about the licence conversion though, that's really your own problem, not theirs.

A question I have is : are these courses a one-off or are these going to be a regular feature after the deadline of 2nd March ? If so, how regular ? Anyone got any idea ?

[MidgetBoy]

But Cx hasn't yet guaranteed you a job yet until you hit class 2 where they then recheck up on you. Why would they pay an instructor rating for someone they aren't 100% sure on hiring. I can understand if they pay for cadets to fly to Adelaide for flight grading, but a whole instructor rating? They'd also have to get you your ME-IR since cadets get trained on those too. That's practically the cost of doing PPL, CPL for a person who isn't yet guaranteed a job but just passed some tests and interviews.

[crwfpo]

Good luck Chaps, but please read the Fragrant Harbour Forum first, take it with a grain of salt and then understand that fine print with CX means, "we are out to screw you when we wish". If it suits them they may employ you, if not, then you've wasted alot of time at a time when the job market in Aus is going ballastic.
CX was a great employer in a previous time, but I have never worked for any company that has treated their pilot body with such incredible disdain.
Seriously sign-up by all means, but to sell your soul to these guys before even getting in the door, good luck and with 20-20 hindsight I would certainly be doing something else.
It 'aint no dream job.:=

[PosClimb]

I think it's risky.

You're basically committing to be an instructor for about 4 years.

A LOT can happen in 4 years.

If it was a two year commitment, it would be good.

But why would anyone lock into 4 years when you can instruct for a year then go fly something big.... maybe not as big as a 747, but big enough.

[ReverseFlight]

Too bad the current market for Grade 3s ain't great, so I'm looking further afield.

I think you're right, MidgetBoy - maybe I misled myself when reading the title "Scholarship Program" on their website. In any case, I knew I had to do my own ME/CIR - anyone who hasn't got it won't get approval to train cadets in ME/CIR as Grade 3 or 2 - that's under the CAOs.

Even before we get there, my worry is that whether you get a Grade 3 rating in the first place is judged by FTA and them alone (advancing to Grade 2 is more a matter of numbers). If you somehow find you've been left out of the loop during the Short Course, it's probably too late to realise that you've already signed a piece of paper saying you can't pull out before completion of the course ... that's after you've already shelled out a small fortune. Besides, it's no skin off their noses if you break off and go elsewhere ... your training records can't be transferred to another school unless they consent. What a nightmare.

Nothing against FTA at all - it could happen at any school where you have to sign a piece of paper.

[MidgetBoy]

My parents are telling me to stop coming to this forum if everything I hear about Cx is making me think badly of the company, thus leading to me never having a good attitude for an interview (I still want to get in to Cx though), but this is just commonsense here. You could spend 4 years as an instructor and get in as an SO, OR, you could spend 4 years working your way up in a small charter or bush flying and logging more multi hours and possibly get a job flying some smaller jets for awhile. And then maybe in 6 years you can go DEFO.

Nothing wrong with this program if Cx can guarantee a job, but they probably can't, they might just not need you in 4 years (unlikely). And odds are you'd get promoted to Class 2 pretty fast with all the recommendations (assuming the older instructors let you claim all the recommendations).
If FTA pays decent, it doesn't hurt to get hours anyways and if Cx doesn't hire you after those 4 years for any reason, atleast you have a decent amount of ME hours. If all else fails, come to Canada and apply to work for Transport Canada. $90k CAD a year ain't bad for someone who does a few flight tests a month..

Guarantees are always good, they just rarely come unless a company is REALLY desperate.



Off topic: What's 401k?

[wowpeter]

I think it's risky.

You're basically committing to be an instructor for about 4 years.

A LOT can happen in 4 years.

If it was a two year commitment, it would be good.

But why would anyone lock into 4 years when you can instruct for a year then go fly something big.... maybe not as big as a 747, but big enough.

You get lock in for 4 years but you get expat benefits when you return to Hong Kong. I think it is rediculous especially when you already have your seniority number after maybe 1 to 2 years at Adelaide. Also with CPA and FTA paying 80% of your training, you still get expat benefit. You only pay about A30,000 to A35,000 which with expat benefits, you will get that money back within 1 year t CX. It is a rub in the face of the cadet program. Because of this, Cathay is going to get a lot of dis-satisfied local pilot for sure.

[takamasa]

can anyone think about the reason why they set up this program??

firstly, they are desperate for pilots, that's for sure
second, i think they want to limit their batches each year. if i were the company, i would prefer hiring instructors instead of cadets with 200 hrs.


third, they want to reduce the expense on cadets.

there's rumor saying Da11 will be last CPP.


for me, i will definitely try coz i want to leave canada and have a new start somewhere.

i will e-mail for further info.

[ReverseFlight]

I don't think the new scheme is merely to let you build your hours. With the expected introduction of the MPL, airlines need a new generation of pilots who can instruct as well as fly. By the time the products of the MPL come fully on stream in a few years' time, the MPL newbie would be kicking off with less hours than the average cadet of today, which means a lot of hand holding in the early stages.

Just my 2 cents' worth - I stand to be corrected on this.

[sgsslok]

Contrary to what people might think, this CX/FTA partnership actually allows CX to hire more cadets and reduce expenses in the long run.

Courses in ADL are being delayed due to a chronic shortage of pilots worldwide. Regional airlines are hiring at record low minimums, and instructors are the first ones to go.

This program keeps the instructors at FTA for 42 months, which won't solve the pilot shortages at CX anytime soon. However, it does solve the instructor shortage problems at FTA, which allows FTA to train more cadets for CX.

Local pilots in CX are on a salary package that is significantly lower than the DESO package. Although the initial investments are higher for cadets, CX saves money in the long run.

It's true that CX will be sponsoring some costs of training for the instructors, but it will be offset by the tremendous amount of savings by having more pilots on the local package.

Overall, I think this will be financially beneficial to CX. They will end up hiring more cadets, less DESOs, and reduce salary expenses for pilots.

[MidgetBoy]

Yeah, I've been told that those rumors of having 3 CPPs this year isn't happening due to lack of training staff at FTA. But Cx could ofcourse just have people do this, pass them through, let them convert licenses, get their instructor rating, and then get REALLY picky when they eventually get their class 2. They could get lots of students trained during the time between an instructor's time from class 3 to 2 and then not giving them a job.

And Cx doesn't save money if the cadet pilots are so fed up with the substantially lower pay they leave soon after the program. =P

[PosClimb]

Has anyone seen the full list of Terms and Conditions for the Short Program?

I'd be very curious to see what the details are.

How much money does the instructor have to pay?

What if you quit the program after 1 year? Do you have to pay money back?

What's the package like?

When are they going to make selections?

[Cap'n Arrr]

http://www.flighttrainingadelaide.com/scholarship-program/scholarship-welcome

Found it here.

[wowpeter]

can anyone think about the reason why they set up this program??

firstly, they are desperate for pilots, that's for sure
second, i think they want to limit their batches each year. if i were the company, i would prefer hiring instructors instead of cadets with 200 hrs.


third, they want to reduce the expense on cadets.

there's rumor saying Da11 will be last CPP.


for me, i will definitely try coz i want to leave canada and have a new start somewhere.

i will e-mail for further info.

No offence Takamasa... the reason why they set up this program is not to reduce expense on cadets... in fact FTA/CPA will be paying for most of the instructor training... ie: you don't even need to know how to fly to join this program and it will only cost you AUS30,000... to get the whole PPL/CPL and instructor training at FTA, it will probably cost you upward of AUS100,000... so FTA/CPA will sponsor you to become an instructor and pay for most of your training, just so that you can train more cadets.

Also your comment, "if i were the company, i would prefer hiring instructors instead of cadets with 200 hrs", is a little degrading to the cadets scheme. I highly doubted any instructor with a few hundred hours on a single engine aircraft will be any better than a cadets with 200 hours. At Cathay, you need to reach a certain standard (be it during your time at Adelaide or back in Hong Kong), so if you don't meet the standard, you are out, doesn't matter if you are a cadet or someone with a few thousands of hours. In fact, I have heard some expat SO get wash out because they did not meet the Cathay standard. So it does not make any difference if you are an instructor or not. Also, the fact that with this new program, those same instructors will probably start instructing with probably less than 200 hours in their belt, that actually reduce my confidence on them on doing a good job.

This program is simply a desperate act of FTA parts to retain instructor. It is also a way for Cathay to ensure FTA will output enough Cadets for the airlines and also have a hand full more pilots each year for Cathay from the instructor side...

What's really bad though is the fact that those instructor will now get expat benefits. There used to be a saying that, the reason why cadet don't get housing was because Cathay pay for their training and that they get to join directly into a major airlines instead of having to work their way up through the regional routes. Now, you will get people who will join Cathay with experience similar to cadet but with better benefits. What will everyone say about employment equality now? I have always been very understanding on Cathay prospective of not providing expat benefits to cadet but now, with this new scheme, I think cadet should be getting the same benefit as those who join from the FTA/CPA sponsor scheme. It is a matter of fair treatment!

[Dub-U!]

Heard that the LPA recently went to management asking for housing/pay similiar to what the DragonAir cadets are getting. Management responded saying that if they gave housing, they'd have to give it to all the secretaries then...

[takamasa]

sorry for my previous comment, no offence to anyone or any companies.
the reasons why i asked coz they will spend extra money on other program so that's why i was wondering if they cut budget on other stuff.

but will the instructor taking that program be focusing on training CX cadets?? or for everyone in the college?

i can't believe the college is so desperate for instructors same as CX. Since they don't have further info coming out. don't know what's the possibility of being hired by CX after 42 months? will they offer a contract to state the terms??

anywayz, it's good opportunity for everyone since CPP is not the only opportunity to get into CX.

i applied already see if i have the chance to be one of them.

[PosClimb]

To me the big issue is how many instructors will actually be able to complete the full 42 months.

That's a very long time to spend in a 152 or a Duchess or something.

I can easily see the instructors being eager to begin with, but after a year or two, their enthusiasm for the job will really wane just from the tedium of doing circuits all day.

I've seen it a million times before in instructors...

[takamasa]

depends .

if u have to sign a contract in order to work for them
u have no way out
unless u pay some money to break the contract.
otherwise, it's a possibility
besides, if they are young enough, just be patient, 3,4 years is not too long if u know u will be flying a big jet in the future.

[forever_beachboy]

hey guys Im currently holding a frozen FAA CPL (muti engine instrument rated) but heard that its kinda hard to convert it into their licenses. Just wondering like if its possible to convert it or I gotta do it all over again. Thanks n good luck bros!

[WaldoPepper]

If you're a "starting out" pilot then I see it as a good thing.

So what if you spend a few years at FTA, at least if nothing else comes up in the meantime you have an instructor job that pays well, probably the best paying one in Oz. If you get the nod from QF or VB after 2 years, take that job. People have spent far more time than 3.5 years in the bush doing crappy jobs waiting for that illusive airline job.

I know that if when I worked at FTA they had this scheme, I would have done it for sure.

[Swush]

Apparently it takes about 8 months to get your grade 2 instructor rating and since your 42 month secondment only starts at grade 2, that puts the entire course duration at about 5.5 years! :eek:

[404 Titan]

Swush

Incorrect. It should take about 6 months.

CAO SECTION 40.1.7

4.2 An applicant for the issue of a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 2 must:

(a) hold or have held a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 3 for at least 6 months; and

(b) have logged at least 200 hours flight time, in a registered aeroplane or a recognised aeroplane, instructing in other than the navigational sequences specified in the aeroplane syllabus that are relevant to the private pilot (aeroplane) licence; and

(c) have logged at least 50 hours flight time, in a registered aeroplane or a recognised aeroplane, instructing in navigational sequences specified in the aeroplane syllabus; and

(d) be recommended by the chief flying instructor; and

(e) have passed a flight test conducted by CASA, an approved testing officer or an approved person in accordance with the Grade 2 instructor rating
flight test report form.

4.2.1 Before recommending an applicant for the issue of a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 2, the chief flying instructor must be satisfied that the applicant is capable of instructing to and assessing the standard required for pilots to fly solo.

[Swush]

Fair enough, I just got that figure from FTA. However you slice it, its a looong time down there.

[MidgetBoy]

I'd like to point out something that might seem a little obvious, but Cx probably won't be looking for people under 20 for this program. It seems awkward to be taught by someone who is 19. It's hard for someone that age to command respect. And if you did get in when you were 19, you'd be living off somewhat horrible wages for 4-5 years. It's going to hurt.
Though cadets don't have a choice, but it would be really weird to be taught by an instructor who maybe at the same age or younger.
Currently I'm deciding whether or not to get my instructor rating in Canada. I'm 19 and from what I've seen, no one likes getting taught by someone too young, even if they're 15 and their parents are forcing them into flying, they'd rather fly with the older instructors.

[sgsslok]

Age should not be an issue.

This is an industry where there could be a 30-year-old Captain flying with a 50-year-old First Officer.

One of FTA's instructor just turned 20 last week, and he has been instructing cadets for at least 6 months. There are training managers who are in their early twenties.

I had students who were twice my age, never had a problem with respect.

It's all about how you carry yourself.

[WaldoPepper]

Midget,

you'd be living off somewhat horrible wages for 4-5 years. It's going to hurt.

You are probably not from Australia then as the wages at FTA (when I was there) are the best wages you'll earn (as an instructor) in Australia.

It's OK to say it doesn't pay very well when you are already in an airline job, but remember this is aimed at those starting out, and I think it pays well (for that level).

I also worked at an Australian Regional which was only a AUD$6000 p.a. pay rise!

[Wing Flex]

Midget,

you'd be living off somewhat horrible wages for 4-5 years. It's going to hurt.

I'd have to disagree. For those starting out, just like I did, is was good pay and great experience. It didn't hurt one bit!

I'm 19 and from what I've seen, no one likes getting taught by someone too young

Many instructors at FTA (and other companies) past and present, are younger than their students and there was never a problem.

[MidgetBoy]

Really, okay then. Canadians must be really different then. Or maybe it's just like that when it comes to Asian instructors.

[takamasa]

even in canada, some instructors are pretty young,
like my college, there are couple guys aged about 19to20.
they are still capable to teach.

i think, my personal opinion.

even when being hired, u won't be teaching the cadets.
u will probably be teaching the locals at the beginning and then jump further.

[hyg]

at the moment doesn't look like they have sorted out the issues with DIMIA yet...

and i would really be surprised they would hire hk local for this program as if they haven't pissed off the cadets grads enuf when they brought this out....

PS if u look further on the deal, the graduate will be working in AFTC doing private students before joining FTA teaching cadets

[MidgetBoy]

Another thing to point out, they could just mess with you and not give you a recommendation for class 2. Then either you stick with it until they do give you a recommendation, or you leave.

And odds are you wouldn't want to leave if you had to pay back a lot of the training to them, so you're on puppet strings until they want to recommend you. (might happen if they're still short on instructors)

[PosClimb]

Basically you're going to be an indentured slave for about 5 years.

And they'll be holding the Cathay carrot over your head the entire time.

They'll be the like the woman who controls the supply of sex, and you're the horny guy. Total power imbalance.

[WaldoPepper]

But if you have no other job, what's wrong with this one until a better one comes along?

You could just as easily be a slave to a dodgy GA operator and wait a hell of a lot more years to get an airline job...maybe even never.

Sounds a lot like sour grapes. I'm sure if this had been around when you started out you would have jumped at the chance.

[MidgetBoy]

Oh, out of curiosity, when you people say age doesn't matter as an instructor. Be honest, when you're paying $200 an hour to fly a C172 and $50 of that is going to an instructor, would you rather pay $50 for a Class 1 or a Class 3? (or even a lower class depending on which country)
I'd rather pay my $50 to the instructor who knows the best way to teach, doesn't miss the occasional field for PFLs, doesn't attempt to spin an aircraft with power off the 'wrong way', has experience in teaching, knows how to get a point across in multiple ways incase you have problems understanding it one way, gives you control long enough for you to fix your errors instead of them taking over early.
I've seen way too many instructors with students doing circuits, the student is off the centerline and instead of having the student fix it, the instructor just takes over. I've also seen instructors attempt to spin a C172 without power to the left (i think left is the harder way..its been awhile) multiple times ending up wasting 30 min of a student's time.
When you pay someone $50 an hour, you pay for the best, not the ones who just want to be up there longer to build up their hours. (Yes, that's what all young instructors want to do)

[WaldoPepper]

Midgetboy,

FTA is a little different in it's approach. At most GA flying schools (Where I started out), the emphasis was on letting the student fly as much as possible. This meant that the method of teaching was rather more "Direct-Monitor". This invariably leads to more directing and monitoring. The reason being that the student feels he/she is getting more for their money because they are getting more time at the controls.

In Adelaide at FTA, the students are not "off the street" as such, and are cadets from various airlines. There are the odd "private" student who joins one of the main courses though. The teaching mentality is different. You are able to spend more time "DEMO-Direct-Monitor" and so as an instructor, you get more hands on.

This may not matter to all, but I found my personal flying skill improved considerably simply because I was Demo-ing more. You might end up doing hours of circuits, but as you move up the ranks you will also do 2-3 instrument ratings at a time. You get quite good at hand flying an NDB approach whilst failing the inboard engine.

The point to all of this and to respond to your post, is that even though the instructor is younger than you, this in no way means the level of instruction is inferior. At FTA they do a LOT of flying and they demo everything. This can't be said for most GA flying schools.

[PosClimb]

But if you have no other job, what's wrong with this one until a better one comes along?I haven't seen the fine print, but it sounds like you're going to be bonded in some way shape or form. Jumping ship may not be as easy as it sounds.


You could just as easily be a slave to a dodgy GA operator and wait a hell of a lot more years to get an airline job...maybe even never.True, but so much could happen over the 4-5 years that could go wrong. Things change so fast in aviation that to say with firm certainty that 5 years from now you'll be a Cathay SO is dicey.

In 5 years Cathay might not even be around. Who knows.

Who is to say Cathay's staffing circumstances won't change? As Rummie would day, there are a lot of known unknowns and unknown unknowns involved when you're dealing with time scales such as this... :}

Sorry if it sounds like sour grapes, but it's more like cynicism. Things rarely work out as you expect them...

[MidgetBoy]

@Waldo, ofcourse FTA would be different, I was just pointing out how hard it might be sometimes for a young flight instructor to work at other flight schools, especially when the student is paying themself and they won't just fly with any instructor. For obvious reasons, cadets at Cx won't complain who they're flying with, they can't.
It's just that, I work at a flight school (not as an instructor) and I've noticed so many horrible instructors. I know Cx and FTA won't hire horrible instructors for this program, but like I said, the rest of the world isn't like that. When you see instructors who get afraid of coming within a mile horizontally from a mountain in a C172, you know it's your time to jump out of the plane with a parachute.

[hyg]

Midget,

who told you cathay cadets aren't allowed to complain who they're flying with??? there's something call personality clash and sometimes it just doesn't work out with one specific instructor, and for the benefit of the cadet, the school will make such arrangement to find another instructor for him/her to get the best of out the cadet.... and there were instructors who had some major issues with instructing cadets properly at FTA too....

[Cap'n Arrr]

Just a side note, after 5 years at FTA I would expect that with the hours they fly annually, even without this program you would be eligible for an SO CX position anyway. The only difference I can see is that you have already done your interview before you start, so you know the job is yours once your time is up. And either way you'd be an expat, so by definition if you're an expat you'd certainly expect to get expat benefits...

Again, as far as I see, the only difference is that you've done the interview, which by the looks of it you MUST PASS before being hired. Then you do the time working at FTA, and when the times is up, doing the max hours a year they seem to expect, youd certainly be more than eligible to apply. But, from day one you know the job is yours unless CX go bust. Don't quite understand how that annoys cadets, but anyway.

[OhForSure]

My question:

When they claim "secondment" back to FTA... does that imply that you are still employed by Cathay and paid by Cathay? Or are you somehow "released" to FTA and employed (and therefore paid) by them? What I'm getting at is who's paying the bills here? Furthermore, considering that you are issued with a CX seniority number after 6 months (issue of grade 2), is there any chance you'll be on SO pay? :D I know, I know, highly unlikely...


Also: They seem to be having problems with foreign licence conversions. FTA aren't sure how they're going to handle the logistics of this program. However, there will be interviews and testing in ADL and a second interview with CX in HKG.

[Kelvs]

Cap'n Arrr, the reason for the FTA secondment scheme annoying present, past and future cadets is that the program is open to anyone, expat or not. Yet the company did not think to give this opportunity to the guys and girls who have gone through the cadet program and are currently employed. If given the choice to pay AUD$30,000 and then instruct at FTA for a few years before getting the FULL package at CX over being employed on a local contract and earning 50% less than what the expats get for doing the same job for your entire career within the company.... what will any sane person choose? Not to mention that the majority of most cadets these days are expats anyway. I think you will find many expats actually being more 'locals' than a lot of the cadets.

The other issue is that the people going through this program will be jumping the queue in the seniority list without actually working for CX (ie: flying a CX aircraft). But this is an issue for the AOA to take up.

[takamasa]

looks like this program is not that popular here.

[MidgetBoy]

@hyg, another cadet told me.

[sgsslok]

Midget-

Probably the same cadet who told you there are 25 CX cadets this year? :ugh:

Cadets at FTA are allowed to complain. All they need to do is to talk to the their respective training manager.

Don't take this personally, but please get your facts straight before posting. Thanks.


Everyone-

Back to the topic. If you guys look at the website about the program, there are "subject to satisfactory performance and behavior" everywhere.

I would go as far as saying that the program is essentially a 6-year interview process, which starts from training for the licenses all the way until the last days, 6 years from now, as a flight instructor at FTA.

6 years is a long time. 6 years ago, the airline industry around the world were still suffering from the wake of 9/11, where tens of thousands of pilots went jobless. Then there were SARS, and now, the world is experiencing the worst pilot shortage in 30 years.

As a few others have pointed out, no one knows what happens in these 4, 5 or 6 years. Even if there are no major events that hinder the industry growth, a lot could happen to you as an instructor.

If you screw up just this much, you might not be flying rubber dog s**t out of Hong Kong! :E

Flight instructors don't need to work 5 years to land an airline job. It would be a regional airline job, but they would at least get turboprop or jet experiences under their belt. On the other hand, not many major airlines look at applicants with only piston experience.

There are compromises if one were to join this program. It just depends on if you are willing to live with those compromises.

[404 Titan]

sgsslok

I gather from your profile you are probably a cadet so I will answer your points based on this.
If you guys look at the website about the program, there are "subject to satisfactory performance and behavior" everywhere.
And you don’t think this is what it is like when you join CX? Every promotion you will get here is subject to that and in some cases if you don’t perform you will be fired.
I would go as far as saying that the program is essentially a 6-year interview process, which starts from training for the licenses all the way until the last days, 6 years from now, as a flight instructor at FTA.
And again you think it will stop when you come to CX or any airline that matter. This is an industry where you will be scrutinised and micro managed until you are blue in the face. I suggest you get use to it now because it will never stop.
As a few others have pointed out, no one knows what happens in these 4, 5 or 6 years. Even if there are no major events that hinder the industry growth, a lot could happen to you as an instructor.
So what you are trying to tell people here is that if they don’t go this way but instead go and pay for their own licences etc and do the years slogging it out in GA that it will be different? I’ve got news for you buddy. This industry is a hard slog and there are no guarantees what ever way you may decide to go.
Flight instructors don't need to work 5 years to land an airline job. It would be a regional airline job, but they would at least get turboprop or jet experiences under their belt.
And more debt to pay for the turbo prop endorsement. The way the pay structure is with some of these regional’s you’re better off staying in GA because you will earn more and that isn't much either.
On the other hand, not many major airlines look at applicants with only piston experience.
That’s funny. The last time I looked at QF for example there were many DESO getting in with only piston engine time. I got into CX with only piston time back in 2000, mind you I had a s**t load of it and the right type as well.
There are compromises if one were to join this program. It just depends on if you are willing to live with those compromises.
Yes there are, just as there are compromises with every path to a major airline job. If it’s GA it’s living in s**t hole places, crap pay and flogged out aircraft as well as paying off a huge debt to get your licence in the first place. If it’s the military you have ROS issues and possibly being shot at and killed.

If you think AUD$30000.00 is a large debt, my training costs were about AUD$20000.00 more than this and I learnt to fly in the mid 80’s. To learn to fly today with all these tickets you won’t have much change out of AUD$100000.00. If you then go to the regional’s it will be even more when you add on the endorsement costs that most of them seem to charge these days and possibly ROS or bonding just to rub the salt in.

Quite frankly I see way more positives to this scheme than negatives and I have been in the industry 22 years now and seen them all.

[hyg]

Well said Kelv, especially even though it's only open for aussies atm, I am sure there are heaps of past cadets who are aussies and wouldn't mind paying 30K-35K ...

404Titan, both you and sggslok have some good points, but the dude knows what it's like in GA, the dude has done part of the hardship before going to parafield anyway....

[404 Titan]

hyg

I think you have to look at it from a minimum cost point of view for the applicant. If they have more than 2-3 years already in GA, I wouldn’t bother with this CX/FTA scholarship deal. You’re better off slogging it out for another 2-3 years and applying to CX or what ever airline and take your chance then. If you have less than this it is a very good deal from a cost and time prospective. Less debt, living in a capital city, good pay for GA standards and an almost guaranteed path into a major airline.

Current DESO’s coming into CX have already done on average about 7 years in GA excluding training time so the idea of doing about 4 years at FTA, having most of your training paid for and having a guaranteed job at CX at the end of it if you perform is very appealing indeed.

[sgsslok]

404 Titan-

I know that I am not as experienced as you are in the aviation industry, but I can also assure you that I didn't arrive at YPPF with zero experience either. In fact, the cadetship is not even my first job as a professional pilot.

Anyway, I think somehow you have mistaken the intend of my post. I was not trying to say that one way was better than the other. I was merely pointing out some of the things where applicants for the program need to consider.

In fact, I agree with almost everything you said. These are things that are universal to the aviation industry. What you said and what I said didn't contradict each other. I was just stating the specifics for the program, while you were looking at the bigger picture.

This program is targeted at people with little or no experience in the aviation industry, and they simply might not have considered some of the things we've brought up. I want them to be able to make an informed decision.

For me, if you give me 6 years, I would much rather spend 2 years instructing and 4 years at a regional, then 6 years instructing. I would have less risk of something going wrong, as statistically, airline flying is the safest way to fly, while GA is 9 times more dangerous. I would also have accumulated more experience by the end of that period of time. On a personal level, I sure as hell would have enjoyed carrying people around doing 5 sectors a day, more than I would have enjoyed doing stalls and steep turns all day.

If I were(am) to be given a choice, I wouldn't have taken it. If I wanted the expat package, I would have hung on for a few more years and applied as a DESO. There are reasons why I didn't, but that's another story. ;)

Of course, I am not too familiar with the GA/regionals situation in Australia. I was speaking from my experience from the few years I've spent in the US.

I think this is a good program overall as well, especially with the scholarship. It gives more people more opportunity than before. My conclusion remain the same tho: figure out what the compromises are worth at a personal and professional level, and act accordingly.

P.S. I've just read your reply for HYG, and I think you would understand my point of view if you know my prior experiences. :D


HYG-

Thanks for sticking up for me! Hope all is well and you will pass your you-know-what without much fuzz!

[404 Titan]

sgsslok

Mate I do apologise if I came over as a bit harsh. That was never my intention. We all have to make decisions based on personal, financial etc reasons and I have no problems with the direction you have taken. One thing I have learnt though through this job is that you must look at it from the big picture point of view. Trying to micro manage your career will drive you insane. You must look at all the variables and do what is best for you at the time.

Having said all that and I may be wrong, (I haven’t read all the posts here), but I get the impression that some here, i.e. existing cadets and instructors may be very bitter because this wasn’t offered to them? While I do feel sorry for them the reality is that this scheme wasn’t on offer when they signed up. It’s really no different to someone who bought a car yesterday finding out today the same dealer is offering a thousand dollar discount plus a free tank of fuel. Would they be pissed off? You bet they would. Should they get the discount and free tank of fuel too? No. “Caveat emptor”, Let the buyer beware.

[Cap'n Arrr]

Adding on to what 404 said, the fact that some people are upset about not being able to do this program should speak volumes about how good or bad it is...

[willnotcomply]

Get your own qualifications, be your own man(or woman). This will ensure better all round experience IMO. Don't waste your youth by over committing to CX and HK before you have a chance to figure out the world that awaits. Always be free to move and choose your own terms as much as possible. Aviation is changing at a rapid pace now and for the foreseeable future. Take advantage of many available choices. Always remember, there is more to life than shiny jets, trust me.

[404 Titan]

willnotcomply

I seem to recall a couple of cadets recently quitting just after they arrived in HK from ADL and going off the HKA. Remember bonding in HK is illegal.

[MidgetBoy]

So then loyalty must be very important to Cx when hiring cadets. So it makes me wonder though, why don't most cadets leave after getting a type rating? Atleast then they get full benefits. One of my friends told me Cx couldn't care less if you applied again after quitting just after the cadet program since Cx is a business and if they need you, you'll get hired. Or is that never the case?

[PapaGolfIndia]

Just a quick post about this whole issue of an instructor's age. I completed my CPL down in South Africa last year at age 32. My instructors ranged in age from 22 to 27. Never was I concerned about their experience or ability to fly. Some of the younger ones did seem a bit immature in terms of general conversation, which was at times a little irritating, but when it comes to the flying itself, it doesn't matter if you're 22 or 222 - you know that instructing is a responsibility and you therefore you act in a responsible manner. An instructor with half a brain is not going to put his life - and that of his student - at risk.

At my age I have to say this scholarship scheme is very appealing. Yes, I won't be far off 40 when I finish at FTA, but coming in at my age beggars can't be choosers and I'll take what I can get. Hong Kong is home for me and if something like this means that I will end up staying in the Territory after 42 months (not guaranteed, accepted) then that suits me. It may seem unfair to some of the cadets, and I appreciate that, but just think - some years back a HK pilot that paid his own way through training would have been very annoyed to see that CX started the Cadet scheme the following year. That's life. As they say, :mad: happens.

[takamasa]

for those who appllied

got any news？？

[PapaGolfIndia]

Nothing yet. The registration form wasn't that in depth. Just basically asked what type of licence you hold (night rating VFR, CIR) but no mention of how many hours you had under your belt.

[MidgetBoy]

An instructor with half a brain is not going to put his life - and that of his student - at risk.

We need more of those with brains out there now don't we? Wasn't there a story awhile back where a 7 yr old was trying to fly across USA with an instructor and her parents in the back seat to break some record. The 7 yr old ended up going into a spiral dive. The instructor didn't take control assuming the 7 yr old could do it because he didn't want to mess up the record. I think all but the 7 yr old died.

[wowpeter]

Quote:
you'd be living off somewhat horrible wages for 4-5 years. It's going to hurt.

I'd have to disagree. For those starting out, just like I did, is was good pay and great experience. It didn't hurt one bit!


Quote:
I'm 19 and from what I've seen, no one likes getting taught by someone too young

Many instructors at FTA (and other companies) past and present, are younger than their students and there was never a problem.

Really, okay then. Canadians must be really different then. Or maybe it's just like that when it comes to Asian instructors.

Guys... instructor respect is earned. There's a lot of instructor that is younger than me that I respect while I am down in Adelaide. There's others who are older than me that I will never respect them. Simple as that.


Just a side note, after 5 years at FTA I would expect that with the hours they fly annually, even without this program you would be eligible for an SO CX position anyway. The only difference I can see is that you have already done your interview before you start, so you know the job is yours once your time is up. And either way you'd be an expat, so by definition if you're an expat you'd certainly expect to get expat benefits...

Again, as far as I see, the only difference is that you've done the interview, which by the looks of it you MUST PASS before being hired. Then you do the time working at FTA, and when the times is up, doing the max hours a year they seem to expect, youd certainly be more than eligible to apply. But, from day one you know the job is yours unless CX go bust. Don't quite understand how that annoys cadets, but anyway.

Hum... even without this program you will b eligible for CX DESO? There's a few excepions which this quote holds true (I can name 6 names that I personally know, they get hired because they are good and the CX manager knows them personally). Other than that, if you have been an instructor for 4 or 5 years and send in your application to CX. You will not even get your first interview. So with the few exceptions aside, do you think it is fair to give someone with a few years of instructor experience the full benefit of the expat package, while at the same time, not giving such benefits to the cadet themselves? Especailly when you think about it, if an instructor and cadet starts their program at the same time, the cadets will have 3 to 4 years of experience at CX, flying in a multi-crew environment, verse someone who have just instructed... In terms of airlines experience, cadet will hands down beat the instructor any day. Also, the fact that an instructor will be getting a seniority number so soon will be a concern to all pilots and future DESO and DEFO joiners. The whole FTA/CPA program is flawed and it is just going to piss everyone off. Sometimes you wonder, why do the CX management need to piss everyone off before they are happy... I think the Cadets are probably the last remaining groups of pilot who are sympathic towards the company but with program like this, the goodwill from the Cadet are fading quickly. I think all of the CX manager need to go take a course in "Employees Relations 101" or something, maybe they will realize, a good relationships with their employee is actually a good thing.

[Cap'n Arrr]

If you think about it another way peter, if an instructor just finishing their 4 years and a cadet just finishing their course both start at CX on the same course, which one has more real time command flying experience???

I can see how the seniority number issue would annoy some, but I don't believe that theres anything else about this program that is unfair to the instructor or the cadet. Could be wrong, as I don't have any first hand info, just calling it as I see it.

[takamasa]

any news yet??

[sgsslok]

There is currently a group of applicants at FTA at the moment, going through the first stage of interviews.

I am not sure if they are applying for the long course or the short course, since I haven't conversed with them.

From what I heard from others, it seems that they are planning to hire 10 of them.



On the side note, the rumor that a few CX cadets jumped shipped after they went back to HKG from ADL was not true. There were a couple of FTA private cadets who have joined Hong Kong Express, and that might be the cause of confusion!

[takamasa]

On the side note, the rumor that a few CX cadets jumped shipped after they went back to HKG from ADL was not true. There were a couple of FTA private cadets who have joined Hong Kong Express, and that might be the cause of confusion!

How could those cadets joined HKE with limited experience??

btw,

i applied the short one, waiting for reply.
is there any way u can tell when they are going to invite us for interview or selection??
thz!

[ReverseFlight]

Here's Take 2 of the (revised) scheme:

It's a "unique scheme for young people", i.e. "individuals who have little or no prior flying experience". (So gone are the instructor-only scholarships : the commercially experienced need not apply.)

"Successful candidates will be asked to contribute A$30,000 - A$35,000."

"Flight Screening will comprise of a 7 to 10 sortie flying program designed to assess a candidates’ potential to assimilate training in terms of their rate of learning and retention of learning in an airborne environment."

"For candidates with less than 20 hour previous experience they will undergo the 7-sortie program and the cost will be A$867 incl. GST. For candidates with more than 20 hours previous flying experience an extended 10-sortie program is required and the cost to the candidate will be A$1059 incl. GST."

Closing time is 0000 hrs LMT CST on 13/04/08. Read it all at:

http://www.flighttrainingadelaide.com/scholarship-program/scholarship-welcome

[takamasa]

any news for the short program??
i have bee waiting for weeks.

[azamat69]

I just had a read of the website and the course content, it seems that it might not be as great as i had thought initially...After getting the Grade 2, thats where your seniority number is allocated to you, not earlier as i had suspected and also, you have to give back 42months to FTA AFTER you get your grade 2.

The whole process from starting at FTA until you get to Hong Kong: 65 weeks for training, possibly upto another 1-2years to get to grade 2, another almost 4 years after Grade Two. Thats 6years minimum, maybe upto 7years before you get to come to hong kong and then spend upto 3years as a Second Officer before upgrading to FO.

Seems to me that for shorter time period you could do your flight training, get a job and work for less than 4 years and then apply to CX...just me thinking out aloud

[404 Titan]

azamat69
The whole process from starting at FTA until you get to Hong Kong: 65 weeks for training,
Why include the training time? We all had to go through that. Compared to some already in CX, 65 weeks is short.
possibly upto another 1-2years to get to grade 2,
Actually it is more like six months.
CIVIL AVIATION ORDERS
SECTION 40.1.7
4.2 An applicant for the issue of a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 2 must:
(a) hold or have held a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 3 for at least 6 months; and
(b) have logged at least 200 hours flight time, in a registered aeroplane or a
recognised aeroplane, instructing in other than the navigational sequences
specified in the aeroplane syllabus that are relevant to the private pilot
(aeroplane) licence; and
(c) have logged at least 50 hours flight time, in a registered aeroplane or a
recognised aeroplane, instructing in navigational sequences specified in the
aeroplane syllabus; and
(d) be recommended by the chief flying instructor; and
(e) have passed a flight test conducted by CASA, an approved testing officer
or an approved person in accordance with the Grade 2 instructor rating
flight test report form.
another almost 4 years after Grade Two.
3.5 years to be exact.
Thats 6years minimum, maybe upto 7years before you get to come to hong kong
Again you’re distorting the figures to suite your argument by including the training time. The minimum ROS to FTA after you have completed your instructors rating is 4 years, i.e. 6 months to achieve Grade 2 then 3.5 years secondment back to FTA. The average DESO in CX today has in excess of 3000 hours total experience and 1000 hours turbine when they join. They have generally spent 5-10 years in GA, a large proportion of this in the bush living in sh*t conditions on sh*t pay. They are probably also trying to pay off a loan in excess of AUD$60,000.00 which they used to pay for their license in the first place. From my perspective to have most of your training paid for then have a guaranteed job, first in GA and then in CX as a bonus, not to mention being able to live in a capital city.
and then spend upto 3years as a Second Officer before upgrading to FO.
As we all know upgrade times can’t be guaranteed, but based on the length of time it is taking DESO’s to upgrade today (3 years from DOJ), you would spend one year as an SO.

[azamat69]

404,

Looks like i rattled your cage, all i was trying to do was give the guys and gals an idea of what sort of period of time they were looking at, so they can make up there own minds if this was a good deal or not. Sure there are alot of pilots in every airline that has had to go bush bashing to get the time under there belts, and had to work for free to get there, i did it just like alot of guys but it doesnt necessarily make me a better pilot than someone who is going to go through this FTA system.

And your numbers, whilst i agree that some are more accurate than mine, to have a go at me over 6months i think is a bit extreme but hey the more accurate the better for the ones looking at this thread.

To me it seems that you dont agree with airline pilots being instructors only when they join and if this is the case, i have flown with quite a few of the guys from FTA and they are all top class pilots. Some have never touched a turbine or jet plane but hey does it really matter at the end? I dont think so, but again its just my own opinion. All of them have also passed through there Command courses with no problems whilst other very experienced guys have failed.

[404 Titan]

azamat69
Looks like i rattled your cage
Not at all. I know spin though when I see it.
Sure there are alot of pilots in every airline that has had to go bush bashing to get the time under there belts, and had to work for free to get there, i did it just like alot of guys but it doesnt necessarily make me a better pilot than someone who is going to go through this FTA system.
I never said they were.
And your numbers, whilst i agree that some are more accurate than mine, to have a go at me over 6months i think is a bit extreme but hey the more accurate the better for the ones looking at this thread.
Ah no. It was more like 1 year difference in numbers at FTA after ignoring training time and 2 years difference as a SO prior to upgrade.
To me it seems that you dont agree with airline pilots being instructors only when they join
I don’t know where you got that. I have also flown with some of the ex-instructors from FTA and have no problems with them.

Now lets make a comparison of the various cadetships available to Aussies at the moment:

Cathay/FTA
• CPL training
• ME-CIR training
• Grade 3 Instructor Rating, followed by a period of employment in this role
• Grade 2 Instructor Rating, at which point a Cathay Seniority Number is issued
• Employment as a Grade 2 instructor for an agreed period
• Full time permanent employment with Cathay

Total cost to candidate = AUD$30-35K, approximately 20%, with the other 80% of the cost "subsidised by Cathay".

Qantas
• CPL training
• ME-CIR training
• Full time permanent employment with Qantas Group

Total cost to candidate = AUD$100K+

Rex
• CPL training
• ME-CIR training
• Full time permanent employment with Rex flying SAAB340 with a ROS of 5 years but if you resign before seven years the balance of the training loan + interest becomes immediately payable.

Total cost to candidate = AUD$80K

QL Link Pilot Trainee Program
• ME-CIR training
• Multi crew training
• Full time permanent employment with Qantas Link on Dash8 with a 4 years ROS. If the Pilot remains employed for less than the 4 year period, then the Pilot will be required to repay a pro-rata amount of the total training costs.

Note: Minimum licensing requirements are an Aus CPL and ATPL subjects

Total Cost to candidate = AUS$0

[venturi101]

It sounds like a good program but there are alot of other avenues you can take at the moment.
As stated in other posts, there is a pilot shortage like no other at the moment and who knows how long it will last.
A 4 year commitment is a long time, and in that time elsewhere in the industry you should be able to achieve some 2 crew turboprop and possibly even a command in which case CX will still look at you.
The main difference being that you have got more realistic experience dealing with different operational pressures.
Having said that FTA is not a bad place to do some time, atleast thats how I found it when I was there.
I would advise exploring GA a little more before going down this road.
The oportunities are out there, you just need to tap into them.

[preset]

Look at all the different avenues you like but they won't get you on a major airline seniority list any quicker, wake up and smell the coffee !!! Speculate as much as you like as to what might happen over the next few years but it will still be speculating, go with what you know now.
Don't let short term thinking get in the way of your long term goals.
Need I remind some people that a lot of airlines want <you> to pay for the endorsement not the other way around. What does it take to wake some people up ???

[venturi101]

Your right, it will not have anything to do with a seniorority list.
FTA did something similar with China Airlines not that long ago and the deal was that you do your time at FTA and then you got recommended to CAL for an interview process.
You were in no better poisition than any other interview candidate and I believe to date only 2 have gone through in the past 3 or so years.
Im sure it will be alot more structured with Cathay being involved, but my main point is that you can get more realistic experience within that time frame doing charter flights, where if the WX is crap, you go within the bounds of safety and not cancel at the discretion of the student.
Its not about short term thinking for longterm goals.
Its about getting off your arse and getting a job where you deal with all kinds of problems where your decision making and circumstances will assist you in your future, decisions and circumstances that you may not have to deal with as an instructor for 4 years waiting for a Cathay gig.
Dont get me wrong, instructing is good to get into.
I have been an instructor and dont regret any of it but I think its a good idea to get a mix of experience before an airline.

[preset]

I agree, a mix of experience would be desirable & in a perfect world could be done. The trouble is this industry is so variable that one cannot usually pick his time to join an airline but must take the opportunites when they present themselves. It's a very brave pilot who would continue to gather varied experience in GA <then> apply to the airlines or choose his own start date :uhoh: I know right now the industry is ripe but I have seen it change nearly literally overnight, eg SARS, 9/11, and the downturn in the US economy may release some US pilots onto the international market etc. I'm not trying to sound pessimistic but this industry can be brutal & the general public think we get paid too much :rolleyes:

[venturi101]

I know the industry can be brutal & the general public think we get paid too much, :sad:I also saw the days of sars and 9/11 and it was than that I only had instructional time and they were hard days for limited experience pilots.
Do you think that I could get a charter job at that time?
It was near impossible because the industry was flooded with pilots.
If I had some Multi-engine charter up my sleeve it may have been a different story and this is why I suggest getting a mix of experience while you can do it easily.
Atleast then you are safegaurded a little more if it does turn bad again, which could happen as fast as it turned good for pilots.
I dont think you sound pessimistic, if things stay as they are right now then what you are saying is spot on.
But if they don't, :ouch:

[vicleecy]

Does anyone know how much does a Grade 2/3 instructor at FTA earn?

Do instructors down there receive free food and bed?

[venturi101]

Grade 2 or 3 instructors I believe are on min award only but Im not sure on the exact numbers .
A G2 MEIFR is about 42k I think.

I think instructors still recieve food and bed within the first 4 week of employment then they start paying or they get their own place.

Hope that helps.:ok:

[GlobalAdventure]

Hi Guys!

I am new to this site and had a question in regards to the interview process in HKG for the long course program.

I am curious to what TRAX testing is? I see what it says on the FTA site but am stumped on what it entails.

Does anyone know what Cathay is looking for at these interviews out of their applicants? Any tips or information?? I hope some of you might have either been though this process or have heard a little bit about it. ANy insight would be greatly appreciated. :ok: