How easy is it to get a job then?

[newstudentneil]

For example:

I am a fully qualified pilot aged 30. Been to one of them training schools and got the lot....!

How easy is it to get a job as an airline pilot?

I'm not specifically talking the big boys (BA, Virgin etc) but any airline anwhere in the world.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its very very hard and about to get a whole lot harder.

WWW

[Anonymus6]

very easy if you are a low time pilot with 250 total time. You just send your CV and you will get invited for an interview and a sim session in the A320. You just do a couple of approaches and you get a job flying 737 or A320.

the hole process takes about 3 weeks and you will make 3-4000 euros a month and get a bunch of girls.


Good luck:ok:

[EpsilonVaz]

"How long is a piece of string." I think is the only reasonable answer.

[Fireboy]

I've been had a frozen atpl since august and the only positive thing I've had is a Ryan air interview and sim ride, I passed but turned it down because I didn't have a spare £25k!!

I keep getting letters saying "we will keep your details on file" how true that is I don't know!

I'm now thinking about doing the FIC to work part time around my current job, that way I keep current and earn a little spending money at the same time. Is that a good idea? I'm still not sure what to do.

Fireboy

[trafficcontrol]

I think if you have no restrictions..ie family etc...and your willing to go to the job rather than wait for it to come to you, then there are plenty of opportunities out there. Globally! Just means you might have to migrate. :-)

Exciting possibilities for sure! :-)

[newstudentneil]

Thanks.

I'm not interested in making lots of money from flying.

My main goal is to fly a 737 or A320 as a full time job regardless of the pay.

I hear the airlines are not interested in those people that have paid to go on a '0 hours to airline pilot' course - How true?

[Fireboy]

I think that is the right answer but I wish it wasn't

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

New Student,

After spending all that money and going through your training, I cannot believe that you have not researched this before you embarked of the quest to become a professional pilot?

Where did you hear that the airlines are not interested in people who go from 0 hours to a frozen ATPL. We are not born with the licence and 1500 hours you know.

Dear on dear. :rolleyes:

[newstudentneil]

CAT3C AUTOLAND (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=7058)

sorry to have made you angry on a monday afternoon but had you of read my message properly you wouldn't of made such a fool of yourself.

The message is an example.

I am a 24 year old student that has just started is PPL training. I am not a pro pilot but I hope that by reading things properly and taking my time with all the training I will fly for an airline one day.

Now get yourself a cuppa and put a smile back on your face.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Oops, I missed the 'for example part' accept my appologies.:oh:

[tom_ace]

it's not easy; infact the training is the easy bit in my experience. but if it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing

[Stpaul]

It was easy for the 19 year old at Titan!

Dad can you get me a job? Yes son but only if you do the dishes tonight!

[newstudentneil]

I wouldn't be worth doing if it was easy....?

Thats the stupidest thing I have EVER heard!!

Do you want to fly planes or do you want people to think you are some kind of hard working bod that only takes on the most complex of challenges?

[tom_ace]

ok, it's really easy, and you will get lots of women, lots of money and will have big parties in fancy hotels around the world every night!

[newstudentneil]

oh Tom its okay matey. Next time just reply when you have something constructive to say otherwise don't bother at all.

[Penworth]

He did have something constructive to say, he said it wasn't easy, and training was the easy bit in his experience, which is bang on imho. The fact is that there will always be more low hour pilots qualifying than there are jobs to go to, and as www alludes to, the imminent financial situation in the uk is likely to make this a whole lot harder.

PW

[Bearing 123]

New Student,
You're really into making friends on here eh!!!!:ok:

[newstudentneil]

Not really no I just want to use you lot for information

you really want to make friends on a forum?? :ok:

[AlphaMale]

I like the way nobody can be bothered to answer your questions anymore ... who needs friends uhh?

I think you should quit before blowing all that money on training. No pilot on here would want to spend 1 sector with you on the flight deck - never mind 6!

[EpsilonVaz]

you really want to make friends on a forum??


I have made many good contacts on this forum, and also some friends that I'm sure I will bump into at an airport one day.

Aviation is a small world.

Your ignorance/arrogance will be your undoing. I suggest if you don't open your eyes and adjust your attitude, you should go away and think about choosing a different career.

EpsilonVaz

[newstudentneil]

Just so your Ego feels better I fully agree with you and alpha male.

x

[Nathan.Hunter]

I personally dont kno as i'm in pritty much the same boat but smaller and further away

i'm 20 and still halfway through an aerospace systems degree

however from what people have said ect it seems to me like if you can get to uni and get a good degree, do that 1st!

then get a good job with a good salary, on you 25 days a year hol do some training bit by bit, i.e. year 1 ppl, year 2 cpl ect

I plan to be able to save about £7-11k a year (if i live in a tiny house and dont eat like i am now as student)

then in a long time probs 5, 6 ish years or somthing (so when your 30) you can apply for your airlines, but while you wait your still getting paid a good wage!

Play the waiting game, never get into debt and do a few different types of jobs

win win surely?


BTW if people think i'm wrong and have a good alternative please let me kno, as i say i dont have any experience on stuff so any info is welcome.

PS. i dont have a rich daddy so cant buy it all in 1 go, and dont fancy having a 60k debt hanging over me!

Nathan :)

[SinBin]

New Student,

for me it was quite easy to get a job when I look back, must be a personality thing I guess, for you I see it not being too easy ifyou go in with that attitude. As a result yes, lots of money, lots of parties and lots of women!!:p

[akindofmagic]

I really hope that this is a wind up. However, on the off-chance that newstudentneil is genuinely looking for advice:
You seriously need to look at whether this is a career that you would like to get into. Jobs are not easy to come by, by any stretch of the imagination, and to be blunt, if you come across in an airline (or any aviation related job) interview like the way you have presented yourself in this forum, then you will be sorely disappointed.

[Rubes]

Have to agree with Trafficontrol's post, see past the shiny jet and do some grafting; lots of oppertunities in Africa.
ru

[enone]

appologies for my inexperiance,are you expected to cough up for type rating/line trainning at ryanair,i only ask as i am a 40 year old wanna be ppl?

[AlphaMale]

Are you expected to cough up for type rating/line trainning at ryanair?

You got it.

I've heard it's between £20k and £30k for a SSTR+LT on a 737.

But if you were bonded for a Type Rating with another airline, for arguments sake easy-jet I think I'd be right in saying they'd bond you for the TR and would take the £20k from your pay over 3 to 5 years?

The risk would be finding the cheapest Type Rating you can find blowing close to £20k on a TR with no written confirmation of a job with any airline. :ugh:

People argue for and against a SSTR and Ryanair in general.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I personally dont kno as i'm in pritty much the same boat but smaller and further away

i'm 20 and still halfway through an aerospace systems degree

however from what people have said ect it seems to me like if you can get to uni and get a good degree, do that 1st!

then get a good job with a good salary, on you 25 days a year hol do some training bit by bit, i.e. year 1 ppl, year 2 cpl ect

I plan to be able to save about £7-11k a year (if i live in a tiny house and dont eat like i am now as student)

then in a long time probs 5, 6 ish years or somthing (so when your 30) you can apply for your airlines, but while you wait your still getting paid a good wage!

Play the waiting game, never get into debt and do a few different types of jobs

win win surely?


BTW if people think i'm wrong and have a good alternative please let me kno, as i say i dont have any experience on stuff so any info is welcome.

PS. i dont have a rich daddy so cant buy it all in 1 go, and dont fancy having a 60k debt hanging over me!

Nathan



Are you a troll or are you really half way through an Aerospace Systems degree course? If the former then Bravo. If the latter then I am very worried.

WWW

[JB007]

LOL!

Yeah, Nathan...not a good plan mate! Just get into debt like the rest of us!

[Philpaz]

for me it was quite easy to get a job when I look back, must be a personality thing I guess, for you I see it not being too easy if you go in with that attitude.


Fully agree with what your saying but surely you have to get to interview before the personality can shine, i thought just getting that far was the hard part?

Phil

[Nathan.Hunter]

Explain?

why's it not a good idea then?

admittedly now doubting how good a job with an an airline will be? bit repetative? where as designing misslie systems say then instructing on the w/e sounds more fun?

any pilots in here that have been there and done that and what do they think of their job? is it just an IT technician?

[BerksFlyer]

Nathan, if you doubt it that much you shouldn't bother!

Get a job designing missile systems, do whatever makes you happy. If you don't reckon flying commercially will be for you, don't do it.

[BongleBear]

yeah don't bother nathan. if you're not prepared to get into debt to do it then it's obv not too important to you. it's effing hard work aswell, no part of the course is easy and i've seen lots of people fail through a cpl because you really need to want it to get through it. doesn't sound like you do want it.

to be honest, designing missiles sounds boring to me. being in control of a 70tonne aircraft with a couple of hundred people sat behind you on a horrible approach, ****ty weather etc now thats a good job to me. not repetitive

And although I have never been an IT technician, I'm pretty sure it's not the same. i'll ask one next time i phone a helpdesk.

good luck

[AlphaMale]

get a good job with a good salary, on you 25 days a year hol do some training bit by bit, i.e. year 1 ppl, year 2 cpl ect

I plan to be able to save about £7-11k a year (if i live in a tiny house and dont eat like i am now as student)

then in a long time probs 5, 6 ish years or somthing (so when your 30) you can apply for your airlines, but while you wait your still getting paid a good wage!

Just to keep you in the loop. Airlines tend to prefer 1 stop modular training to spreading the training over 5 or 6 years. People will argue integrated is the way to go as it shows you can learn to fly an airliner from 0hrs within 200hrs / 12 months. This shows the employer you can take in a lot of information and grasp new skills in a short space of time.

If you complete modular in 12/18 months it's still just as good (in my opinion and what I have been told by others). Stopping and starting will probably take longer and cost you more in the long run.


If you plan to put away £7k - £11k per year then the job must be pretty well paid, considering you'll have a mortgage/bills etc.

£120k house = £700 per month mortgage and then there are say £150 of bills per month to keep the house going. Add car expenses and general living expenses and I'm sure you'll be spending £1k per month.

Saving £9k +/- £2k per year is putting away £750 a month.

To clear £1,750 a month you'd need to earn a minimum (with student loan payments) of £30,426 pa before tax. Is this your expected salary?

[Philpaz]

My bills come to circa £1400 a month and thats before i get a sniff of cessna love. My advice, live with mum and dad till you cant stand it no more!!!

[Nathan.Hunter]

i'm moving about to much to buy a house for the moment so will only be renting and as a master graduate you can get jobs in engineering ranging from £24k to £32k bastic starting pay + your up to 10% bonus salary signing on bonuses ect ect some companies even starting to offer up to 5k intrest free loans, so saving the money isnt a problem.

i want to know if anyone here as been to uni at all and done engineering or are you all fresh from A-levels?

thanks for you advice anyhu

[Nathan.Hunter]

yeah don't bother nathan. if you're not prepared to get into debt to do it then it's obv not too important to you. it's effing hard work aswell, no part of the course is easy and i've seen lots of people fail through a cpl because you really need to want it to get through it. doesn't sound like you do want it.

to be honest, designing missiles sounds boring to me. being in control of a 70tonne aircraft with a couple of hundred people sat behind you on a horrible approach, ****ty weather etc now thats a good job to me. not repetitive

Although a very nice Aero systems can let your auto pilot handle all that for you?

all i'm wondering is, has any1 been there done that and has a view on both aspects, this question should probbaly not be in the wannabe's forum but its good to know what other people think

How bigger debt are people in? are people paying it back yet? how much a month? what job do you do whist waiting for an airline job to come about?

ect ect any ideas people?

thanks

nathan

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Is your first language English?

WWW

[Nathan.Hunter]

who me? yes? why are you trying to say i cant spell?

dont worry i know i cant!

[AlphaMale]

Is your first language English?

That comment just made my day at the office a little brighter. :E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Are you aware that reading and writing are far more important skills than engineering understanding for the modern pilot?

Seriously. The ability to read a set of poorly written rules and apply them to a unique situation is both a difficult and common task on the flightdeck.

If you think that designing missile systems is fun then you've probably never met a missile systems designer.

The debt and loss of earnings that your degree will cost you is unlikely to be repaid by higher graduate earnings for many years and as such the plan is poor based on a purely financial view.

WWW

[Nathan.Hunter]

I can read fine! i just type to quickly and never go back to correct anything.

do you have no idea of student debt, its all a big loan that you pay back about £5 a week its nothing!

Engineering jobs are fun ... if you understand them that is, and yes i no many weapon systems folk along with aerospace systems and aerospace engineering.

our Avionics Systems modual covered alot of navigation and various things and it all seems a doddle compared to say thermo dynamics

anyway getting off track here,

no one with an engineering background done any pilot training in here then?

[AlphaMale]

do you have no idea of student debt, its all a big loan that you pay back about £5 a week its nothing!

As an ex-uni student who took out a student loan .... Yes.

Check it out, see how much you pay back.
http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

£15,500 pa means you pay back 87p per week
£20,000 pa means you pay back £8.65 per week
£25,000 pa means you pay back £17.31 per week
£30,500 pa means you pay back £26.83 per week

Not exactly £5 a week if you're earning a tidy wage is it? ;)

[Nathan.Hunter]

ok so i was slightly wrong on my estimate but say you on £30,000pa then 9% on 15k is £1350 a year £112.50 a month is hardly going to break the bank is it? plus you calculator thingy says you'd be taking home £1700 a month say 700 for rent (i'm currently paying 275) 100 for food 150 for fuel 100 for bills and stuff.

the other £650 a month go go on what you want practly £8000 a year,

if ive missed anything then my over estimation on rent will make up for it.

not having a go or anything just trying to show my idea on the best way to some flying quals

within 4 years of a masters you could become a charted engineer and be on lots more money so even more to spend on training.


What course did you do at uni btw? and did it help?
how far are you through your training? and what you doing now as regards to working, training, ect ect

thanks

nathan

[AlphaMale]

Nathan your maths seems to be about right.

As I said working backward from what you want to save you'll need to earn £30,500pa. And that's living on a shoe string budget.

Having a Masters in Engineering is going to be a bit of a waste if you planning on becoming a pilot really - 3 years is long enough to bee seen as 'educated' and to give yourself a safety net.

I'm not aware of the pay in your industry for graduates but is £30k a realistic figure for a graduates pay?

I did my BSc in IT and £30k is not a realistic figure for an inexperienced graduate, after 4 years or so it is possible but not straight out of Uni.

I am currently working on a number of jobs, I am a web designer / graphic designer / small amount of programming / IT support / Training co-ordinator for a growing company. And I work freelance at weekends :sad:.

Starting my PPL+Night with B-F-C this summer, starting ATPL exams via BGS by the end of the summer along with some hour building, then Multi-IR/CPL with B-F-C in summer '09.

I had most of the money to start it last summer but decided to put it down as a deposit on my apartment due to ever raising house prices :(

I've decided to take out a small loan to fund my CPL as I estimate I will run out of funds during/after my Multi-IR. If I delay it any longer I'll be sitting my PPL in the winter that will also have a knock on effect for my Multi-IR/CPL which I don't want.

So I have a BSc and 3 years experience in IT with a mid 20's wage packet + benifits. I'll get my fATPL only £5k or so in debt (not including a FI rating or MCC). And I own my own home.

Good luck.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its a big loan which has low minimum repayments linked to income. Its STILL a loan though and you have to pay it all back plus a little interest. Whilst you have that debt it will directly restrict that which you might borrow to fund flying training.

Lets say you leave Univeristy only £12k in debt. You graduate job over the next 4 years will loose £3k a year before tax, £4k a year after tax. So lets say you get a job that pays in year 1 22k, year 2 24k, year 3 £26k and year 4 £28k. Thats a median wage of £25k minus £3k loan repayment which is actually £4k a year gross (you have to pay income tax on the money you use to repay the loan).

So really I think you're likely to be on around £21k average gross after student loan repayment to get you debt free ready for flying training and all its costs and loans.


You seriously could equal that by joining a Modern Apprenticeship scheme or similar in house scheme as offered by major employers in hi-tech sectors.

University is very expensive when you consider the debt repayments and loss of earnings. It probably does pay off over the next 10 or 20 years in that profession but as you are planning of changing career anyway then it really doesn't make much sense.

Of course it is quite attractive to be a student for the next three years lying in bed until 10 with some fellow student and living the University lifestyle. But that's a totally different set of considerations.

WWW

[BerksFlyer]

Nathan, I don't understand what you're trying to do?

You're saying that being an engineer or missile designer is better than being a pilot. Yet you want to continue a degree to become one of the former, only to leave for the 'less hard, less fun job' of being a pilot.

The attitude is hardly the recipe for success if you want to be a pilot is it?

Just be a missile man!

[SinBin]

Nathan, as a former senior systems engineer for our astute UK ATC provider, I can now safely say that being a pilot is much better!! Engineering is dull as dishwater.

How anyone can think that sitting in an office is more exciting than a flightdeck is beyond me! Money and prospects are so much better now too.

My reasons for the way things went with me is my business, but take it from me, I don't dread Mondays anymore!!

[assymetricdrift]

WWW: I agree with your post fully. Except it was never until 10 - during the times of Uni, sometimes it was even later!

But on a more serious note. It is very hard to get a job at the moment. I've sent off around 30 - 40 different applications to different airlines. That figure doesn't include duplicate ones I have sent off after a month of not hearing back on previous applications. And before anyone asks, my training record is what I would define as "good": High 90s Ground school average, 1st time IR and CPL and a good final report to back it up.

As far as I'm aware, at the moment, things are really hard. If people are finding jobs, it's generally with one particular airline, who are expanding.

And most people who think that training is hard! - just you wait until you try the job hunt!

[kenny6pac]

Hey all,

Just wondering, how important is it to graduate from a well know school like OATS? I am planning to go there but after comparing the total cost, i was quite shock due to the price difference with other schools.

I know it depends on the individual's ablity as well, i have read many threads saying how they can't find a job after graduating, which is quite worrying.

Also, i just want to know, how easy is it to get into a big airline like(BA n Virgin) after graduating?

Thanx
Kenny

[BongleBear]

I was just going to write in to say about nathans dream. I love it. Wish my loan was only a fiver a week and my rent was 275 a month. Why didn't I have it that easy when I was a student? Oh yeah, because I was a student pilot.

Get a grip nathan you don't know what you want. Ask Jeremy Kyle.

Kenny, unfortunately you just won't get a job with a large carrier straight after graduating. BA and Virgin will want you to have at least 3000 hours plus heavy jet experience, unless you're lucky enough to be sponsored by BA (see their cadete sponsorships for that). You'll find that most people after graduating are really hard up. I think most people wait around a year to get a flying job, then that's on a smaller aircraft to gain experience and most importantly hours. Then there's the controversial move of paying for your own type rating and going for Ryanair or Easyjet. I won't go into why that's frowned upon, it'll just get a rubbish debate going that is repeated every other day on this site.

Expensive integrated school or cheaper modular? There's another debate that has been clawed to death. If you could look into the future and see the state of the job market after you graduate then it would make the decision alot easier.... Seeing as you asked for opinions, I went to one of the big integrated schools and absolutely loved it. Everything was great there; instruction, aircraft and the general environment. However, most of the people I know work with didn't pay anywhere near what I paid and still got the same job. It's upto you.

[SpamFritters]

Kenny, unfortunately you just won't get a job with a large carrier straight after graduating. BA and Virgin will want you to have at least 3000 hours plus heavy jet experience, unless you're lucky enough to be sponsored by BA (see their cadete sponsorships for that). You'll find that most people after graduating are really hard up. I think most people wait around a year to get a flying job, then that's on a smaller aircraft to gain experience and most importantly hours. Then there's the controversial move of paying for your own type rating and going for Ryanair or Easyjet. I won't go into why that's frowned upon, it'll just get a rubbish debate going that is repeated every other day on this site.

Nathan... if your doubtfull about being a pilot... don't bother :}

BongleBear... your comment about VA is true.. it is commonly said they want at least 4000 hours.


However why do you say that about BA?
You realise that you can apply for them with minimum hours, they pick the best of people training from various schools.
From 252 who got jobs from OAT last year... 42 went to BA.
They do after all have a short haul fleet :):rolleyes:

Oh didn't BA stop sponsoring their chaps ages ago..... ;)

[BongleBear]

Yeah sorry, really meant BA's long haul ops that compete with VA's. Point I was trying to make was that you can't leave training and go straight into long haul, I remember thinking it was that easy!

Sorry for the confusion,

B.Bear

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Year after year I never cease to be amazed that people out there sign up for £80k training courses knowing so little about the employment market that awaits at the other end.

Unless you knew a couple of people in the business then ignorance was common in the 1990's. Then along came this forum and there was light.

If you can't name 10 UK airlines off the top of your head in less than 40 seconds you shouldn't be allowed to sit the ATPL exams.

WWW

[W4LLACE]

help me i will take any debt and starve to become a pilot

[BitMoreRightRudder]

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/about.php?page=JOBS&sec=careers&culture=GB&pos=HEAD

:hmm:

[FlyingNikonian]

BMRR,
That was nasty!:E
Although I see what you mean.:rolleyes:

NathanHunter,
Having gone down the Aeronautical Engineering Degree-route myself, I know that it won't give you a head-start when it comes to getting that first job.
Most, if not all, operators will only be interested in having you onboard as a pilot only anyway.
In that sence, a degree would be a waste of time.

When that's said, I must say that my uni-studies did give me a good preparation for the JAR ATPL-theory, which I found to be a breeze!
But, I would've made it anyway. Degree or not.
It does feel good however, to have something else under my belt, since a "pilot degree" limits your options somewhat.
Especially if you, God forbid, lose your medical or something of that kind!

In the end, it's your choice. I wish you good luck, either way!:ok:

P.S Even engineers have to have the "art of correct spelling" down, so you'd better start working on that one! Now-ish!! ;) D.S

[apruneuk]

Nathan,

Whilst I would be extremely impressed with your engineering credentials if you came to me for a job as a commercial pilot, your shoddy typing skills would, I'm afraid, go against your application.

Lord knows where we would end up if you were to be let loose programming the FMC!

AP

[kenny6pac]

Thanks for the info bongolebear,

Can someone tell me, what are the advantages to go to an expensive integrated compare to the cheaper modulars route?

Well, by loooking into the future, i think the expensive integrated route is a better option, because netjets is look to hire 180 pilots for 2008, and BA excepted mroe than 50% OATS graduates for their self sponsered scheme
last year. But i might be wrong!

Also, i want to know will BA or Virgin hire pilots who are not an EU citizen?

Regards
Kenny

[AlphaMale]

Can someone tell me, what are the advantages to go to an expensive integrated compare to the cheaper modulars route?

You'll find your answer here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218620).

[Cabbage crates]

Its very very hard and about to get a whole lot harder.

www

can u elaborate-

why is it about to get more difficult? are u talking credit crunch / general recession, or specific airline news?