Importance of 500 Multi Command.

[Mail-man]

Morning All,
Im currently GA charter flying light twinies round the sticks, and the hours are coming. The question is, how important is the 500 hrs multi command milestone?
Is piking out with a couple of hundred into a Multi IFR FO job (not airline)-(not interested) a better way to travel?
Essentially just want to get my night and thats not happening here, just wanna get this atpl in paper, ay.
Any advice always appreciated,
cheers lads, lasses.

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

Now from what I understand, the 500hrs Multi CMD are a requirement to Command anything OTHER than high Capacity..

I understand that if you are an F/O for HIGH capacity then you wont need the 500 to jump over to the left seat.

Now, can someone please correct me if Im wrong. From what I've read of the CAOs the Appendix stating the 500 Multi CMD is for OTHER than High Capacity

The CAO for High Capacity states; that only the number of flight crew in the flight manual required is needed to operate the aircraft. Therefore the only requirement to Command a High Cap acft is an ATPL ( no need for ANY of the 1500hrs for an ATPL to be twin)

Rex aren't High Cap so if you have less than 500 you'll never get command. I think Qlink are High Cap (atleast the Q400s are) and obviously the Jets are too.

my two cents worth..

My own personal aim though is to stay in GA and get the 500hrs. Unless I can get into a Jet with less. But at this stage they still all want the 500hrs (The ATPL subjects shouldn't be forgotten in all of this 500hr stuff either... get BOTH)

:ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

For as long as operators can get people with multi command, they will probably give them preference. As they probably should because it shows that the applicant has been out in the real world for a little while at least. 500 hours still being bugger-all in the grander scheme. But when the pilot supply dries up, that will change to whatever is on offer. A pulse, a nav-bag and a pair of Ray Bans may well do it, if the shortage gets any worse. Also the multi-crew licence will change it all, probably in favour of a few thousand hours co-pilot time in relevant types or 121 type operations before upgrade. Then that Baron time won't be worth diddly, so I would say keep trying elsewhere and take the 1st airline job on offer even if they do currently have a 500 hour multi command requirement for upgrade. If they bring up the 500 hour thing at the interview, tell them all of the above. If they still don't hire you, they are the ones being short-sighted, or maybe they don't have any confidence that their training over a few years would prepare you adequately for command. Or your Ray Bans didn't work.

[PLovett]

It's worth diddly squat as more than a few transport category airline pilots have said to me over the years.:ooh: There is no relationship between flying a Baron, C310, C402, PA31 and any transport category aircraft except perhaps the number of levers.

It may have had some sense when new F/Os went into the right hand seat of a DC3 but ever since training standards came into the 21st century (unlike management which is still in the 19th) the need for 500 hrs multi command has gone out the door. However, CASA still retains this condition (must be the only country in the world - but there again I wouldn't wish CASA on any other country) so now airlines must find a way around it.
It (the legislation) does include ICUS hours which I believe is how it is done.:ok:

[DUXNUTZ]

I fly a transport category twin and its really not different than flying a cabin class twin (just a bigger cabin). A plane is a plane.

[Towering Q]

Remove the 500 multi requirement and there will be many twin charter operators struggling to find willing candidates to fly their equipment.

[Capt Wally]

I believe the opposite to 'plovett' the 500 hrs twin was a good grounding for all things aviation where decisions where/are made purely on experience. All the senior Capts now nearing retirement flying beside you F/O's would have done it the proper way, where do you think they got the experience from? Sure the early planes flew into the ground with very experienced Capts aboard but in those days there was little in the way of accurate navigation etc., these guys who learnt the hard way paved the way for where we are now. Even today with the advanced technology their still flying into the ground, complete with Uni degrees! You can have all the degrees under the sun from uni's etc with a zillions hrs in the sim but the aussie aviation backbone was built purely from real experience, that only comes from getting out there & learning where it actually gets done, & that's in the air not in the comfort of an airconditioned room. There is just so much you can learn from 'books'!

Sadly the true pilot will no longer be needed in the future. Probably in a hundred years from now if we are still producing fossil fuel burning monsters then they will all be driven by 'book' people & there'll be little need to even look out the window anymore, real pilots will only be in museums, stuffed, like we are fast becoming now 'cause of the so called 'managers' in aviation !:bored:

As usual these are my personal opinions like every one elses in here

CW:)

[Stationair8]

I agree Capt Wally, it just one more thing to achieve in moving onto the next job/rung, just like night hours and turbine hours etc.

The only blokes that whinge about requirements are the ones that are to lazy to move out to the bush to work for an operator, or that bottom feeder that exists in the industry the one who likes to buy ICUS time, and has a multitude of endorsements but no real experience in any.

So Plovett lets look it this way you drive up to NW Australia,in the mid 80's with your newly issued CPL and you start of in a C206, and then you move to an Islander and then down the track to a Baron, must make you a reasonably well rounded pilot after a few scares on long the way. Move onto the next operator down south and you get sent of in Chieftain to night freight(no deice and no wx Radar), and then moved onto RPT all character building stuff.

So you would happily give a young guy ago in your C402c with a brand new CPL and IFR rating and say 20 hours twin time and let him loose with your best client on a dark stormy night!

Tamair gave a lot guys a start but they started off in C210/C310 on bank runs first, then onto the Metro. I think from memory about 1000 hours was needed in your logbook before moving off the bank-runs and into passenger charter

Like wise Airnorth sent them off in the C210 on night freight, survived that you went into rhs of the Metro for a while and then into the C402. Airnorth seem to cop a bagging from Pprune experts but at the end of the day seem to produce a good pilot who seem to be able to move onto Qantas, National Jet, Virgin etc.

[Mr. Hat]

Mail man - as tempting as it is to leave... (and trust me I'v been there) stay!

500 multi command is still a minimum for some operators around the world and once you've got it your done buddy. Noone can take those hours off you. In todays market it will be your last GA job and if times get tough at least you'll have that box ticked.

If the hours aint clicking over quick enough for you then go somewhere where they will but don't get "lured" out of GA until you have it.

Its a ticket to anywhere - its money in the bank.

[PLovett]

Stationair8

The difference is between flying single pilot GA IFR and multi-pilot transport category. The points you and Capt Wally make are valid and have stood the test of time in the past for GA.

I just don't think the 500 thing is valid for multi-crew operation where the FO is going to be learning from someone far more experienced in the RHS.

The world is changing rapidly and GA is going to be hard put to find someone with 500 multi in a few years. Already company promotion to twins is happening faster and with lower hours than ever before.

[c100driver]

Mr Hat what other parts of the world require 500 hours multi command?

As far as I can find out this is only an Aussie thing.

So at 499 hours you are not good enough, so that last hour must be a magic hour of flight experience?

Whilst I mourn the loss of pilots with a well rounded experience, the world has changed and pilots should be interview and employed as a result of attitude and ability not what you have in a log book.

[Howard Hughes]

pilots should be interview and employed as a result of attitude and ability not what you have in a log book.
The most important ability for a pilot is 'decision making'! This is something that needs to be acquired over a period of time, the more experience you have, the more chance that you will have developed good decision making ablities, of course there are some exceptions!;)

Let me tell you EXPERIENCE COUNTS, perhaps not when you are a 'passenger' in the right seat, but when the buck stops with you, you need something to fall back on!:ok:

[160knots]

It's like everything in flying once you have it it's not important, but it's very important if you don't. My 2 cents worth. I'm glad I have it.

[Sir Donald]

Please can we compare apples with apples.
Whilst the argument about command experience gained on twin will hold its worth in gold depending on the type of operation, let’s not confuse ourselves that the same principle will hold true let’s say in a high capacity aircraft like 320’s or 73’s for two applicants with different experience levels.
If you employ a 1000 hr guy with no command experience on multi engine’’high performace’’aircraft such as the mighty Chieftain, do you still think that he will not cut the mustard after say 3 years in the right seat to be a skipper on that aircraft? Unless the operator fosters Howard’s mentality towards FO’s then yes the said FO’s will not cut it because he’s merely there for the ride and law not for development. But since these types of aircraft are single pilot operation, then the said experience is required undoubtedly.
But if the said FO now joins a multi-pilot operation that fosters a developmental climate as it is in most carriers then he shouldn’t have a problem changing seats at all,say after 3 years.
That fact is clearly demonstrated in countries where operational decisions that go beyond the 1.5 K vis with no HIAL or a TAF appended with a PROV for example.
So keep it simple, to be a commander on a Baron or King Air or Citation then your argument about multi time experience holds valid indeed and will carry its weight in gold. Hence why CASA has that reg in place which I think is a good and valid reason. I don’t think it would be wise for the Authority to allow an operator to have a 200 hr commander blast off on a regular all conditions ME charter sorties.
But to dismiss the fact that someone with less experience in said environment will not cut the mustard in say a 737 is another thing and completely untrue, as these operators hire on the premise that the said applicant will progress to be a commander one day and foster a culture of personal development (at least that’s how it is in our operation)
So this argument or post rather will serve as who’s is the longest rather than a comparison of pro’s and con’s for either camp.

[Mr. Hat]

c100 have seen a few job ads here and there asking for it.

At the end of the day do whats right for you.

For me, once i had the 500 me cmd doors opened.

[Icarus53]

What is it that determines if an operator is 'high capacity'? The way I understand it is that its the type of AOC which is issued to them.

I suppose you're right, but it's only half the answer.

In order to operate a high capacity aircraft, the operator requires a high capacity AOC. CAO 82 defines a high capacity aircraft as one with a maximum seating capacity exceeding 38 seats or a max payload exceeding 4200kg.

Read that as 38 passenger seats - other wise you would require a high cap AOC for DH8 A/B and Saab 340.

CAO 82 definitely doesn't require 500 multi comd for High Cap aircraft (but does otherwise for RPT), but I have a feeling that is stated somewhere else - I thought QF and others got a dispensation for cadets going on to Comd??? I'll keep looking.

Icarus

[Howard Hughes]

Unless the operator fosters Howard’s mentality towards FO’s then yes the said FO’s will not cut it because he’s merely there for the ride and law not for development.
Sir Donald, normally I wouldn't bother with replying to such an ill directed post, but your observations about me on this occasion are not even close! I have always fostered the development of anyone I have flown with, of course I myself am limited by my own abilities and knowledge!

Probably the highlights of my career thus far, have been when people have called me after completing their airline training, to thank me for instilling disciplines into them that have helped them get through their initial training! It's moments like that, which make it all worthwhile...:ok:

PS: You will notice I said that experience counts, not an arbitrary number of hours!;)

[Stationair8]

A mate of mine finished up with a job on transport category aircraft with a brand new CPL and IFR rating, job lasted a number of years and then he had to go a fly a PA-31 on night freight to something better came along, he always maintained the transition to multi-crew was difficult but is was a rude shock and a lot of hard work and disciplined required to go back to single-pilot operations.

Likewise so did a number of domestic "Skygods" found stepping out their shiny big jet comfort zone back to single-pilot IFR Charter in a ****ty old C402 or Pa-31 was quiet a culture shock to them in 1989.

[MajorLemond]

"Agnus, i don`t want to get on this plane, sure the captains got 6000hrs on type but he never got his 500 multi-command.... i guess we`ll go to bingo instead where i can tell stories about how i did the "hard yards" :p

[Capt Wally]

hey "Maj" you state a vaild point but I think where going off the track a little there mate:) Would be like you lying there on the operating table awaiting the Dr to remove yr appendix when you over hear one nurse say this is the Dr's first appendectomy, but he is qualified & done 6000 other operations !! We all have to do it the 'first' time sometime but hopefully with experience in other area's!:)

CW