Qantas Unravels

[jetjockey7]

How much worse do things have to get at Qantas before someone at the top realizes that the place is in crisis.
The market has noticed by lopping some 15% off the share price in the last two weeks.
Power failures in BKK,767s running out of water ex HNL and direct LAX services diverting into HNL due to operational requirements.
The Pax notice.
A letter in todays Fin Review suggests that:
"Delays and cacellations due to engineering requirements are now an almost routine occurrence."
"The interiors of many Qantas planes are looking very tired"
"It also needs to address its very obvious staff morale issues"
"Its a sad reflection on what was once a world class company that Qantas is deluded enough to think that some advertising spin will improve its tattered image"
The BNE and PER domestic terminals are unable to cope with current traffic levels.The 743 continually breakdown.Management wonders why customer satisfaction levels between PER/SYD and PER/MEL have plummeted.
The employees are at fault.They are always a soft target
Then factor in the naming of current and former freight exec's who were involved in illegal price fixing and you have a picture of a company that has lost its way.
Qantas needs to fix the basics:infrastructure,equipment and staffing levels before it starts to advertise anything.

[DEFCON4]

QF loses a hull.
Thats the sad,frightening reality.
Then watch the rats abandon the sinking ship.
CASA is totally ineffective.The ATSB needs more info before it can act.
The Australian Securities Commission is still silent regarding the failed takeover.
Dixon must have a lot of photos of a lot of people doing naughty things with Farm Animals

[Short_Circuit]

Q. How do you know when a bolt is tight enough?

A. Tighten it till you strips the threads and back it off 1/4 of a turn.


Q. How do you know when an airline has cut cost enough?

A. When "IT" happens you have cut too much, back it off next quarter.

:eek::ugh:
onya GD

[K9P]

They "the counters of beans" have probably factored "Hull Loss" into the affordable safety equation.

[domo]

They "the counters of beans" have probably factored "Hull Loss" into the affordable safety equation.

they probably have but us engineers have not its up to each of us to maintain safty,we will do our best to maintain the ageing fleet to the best of our ability in spite of difficult conditions introduced by management who do not understand maintenance. In an airline run by accountants you still have pilots, engineers and flight attendants who care.

[Short_Circuit]

Unfortunately the outsourcing of maintenance has taken away our ability to monitor deep rooted
and hidden maintenance, short cuts that do not appear for years to come, ie fuse cracks from
striping paint, staples in wiring, cracks in drip shields,flap tracks, and who knows what else yet.
Yes we have been told QF have factored in that H.L. we do all we can but how can we redo a D chk on transits.

[Clown Act]

I can't argue with any of you about operational problems at Qantas, from a 1st hand point of view, I can tell you that under-resourcing is the problem. As an example, Qantas has a fuel conservation department that continually issues pointless paper directives designed to save a kilo here and there whilst aircraft routinely wait several minutes for a bay (burning in the order of 1,000kg of fuel per hour) because there is no engineer to accept the aircraft onto the bay.

To say the share price is down because of this is silly, however, as the whole sharemarket is down around 15% from November highs.

Cost-cutting is rampant while senior managers stuff their pockets with "bonuses", whilst other employees have to fight tooth and nail just to have their wages keep pace with inflation.

In all ports, particularly Perth and Brisbane, groundstaff are mostly casuals and are stretched to the limit. The "solution" is to cut even more staff.

There is no responsibility taken at a higher level for delays. Sure there are pencil dick delay codes for this, that and the other - but nothing is done - bonuses are paid for fiddling statistics. Most passengers are surprisingly understanding if you merely explain "what" is happening, "what" is being done to rectify the problem and roughly "when" you will get them to their destination. Maintenance defects and adverse weather are a fact of life, but most passengers are surprisingly understanding given a plain english explanation of the reason and it takes only a little thought and a minute of delivery.

I, personally, am sick of explaining to passengers that we are late because there:

1. Is no-one to load the bags or cargo on the aircraft because they are attending another aircraft.
2. There is no-one to extend the aerobridge and let passengers off the aircraft because they are attending another gate.
3. There is no-one to bring a wheelchair down to the aircraft to assist a disabled passenger because they are "busy elsewhere".
4. We have just spent 20 minutes waiting for a loadsheet because of a software upgrade.
5. We are still waiting for passengers because, even though they arrived in plenty of time, there were not enough check-in staff to check their bags in.

plenty more if you have time.


An announcement at the gate 5 mins before an aircraft is due to depart when there is no aircraft at the gate that, "boarding will be delayed because of the late arrival of the inbound aircraft" is NOT an acceptable explanation. Anyone with eyes is able to see that.

It is actually quite embarassing.

I could go on and on and on and on..., but I have a life.

Message to Dixon, Borghetti etc - PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

[watch your6]

We lose a hull?Will management give back their bonuses.
What form of apology will they offer to those who lose their lives?
Probably a DJs gift card.
Thank God for our Lames
The reason the share price has dived is that Merrill Lynch has put a sell note on Qantas stock.The reason is that the aviation cycle has peaked and from here on its going south.
When the hell is Scrotum face leaving ?

[strobe12]

How much worse can things get at QF??

God forbid a hull loss, cant see that really happening though.

So what do people think will happen to QF lets say in the next 12 months.

787 delayed again. A380 arriving late this year. Dixon at the helm till next year, Engineer + LH Pilots EBA's up in the air, V-Australia, Tiger, etc etc

Lets hear the predictions

:confused::confused::confused:

[Capt Wally]

We could all vote to have QF pick their game up with our 'feet'. In other words not fly with them where possible.(sadly this hurts the very people we care about here, the QF employees). Trouble is if it where possible to get the travelling public to understand what we all know very well (which is fairyland stuff I know)then the management would be shaking in their expensive shoes but unfortunetly this is where the management feel safe.

They know that no single body/group has the clout to organize such things but keep this up you guys at the top & you may very well have a riot on yr hands from the loyal staff the likes that will make the WW3 pilots dispute look like a kindergarten tantrum !!!:ugh:Tell us what we can do to help QF employees?

CW

[teresa green]

I know this dreaming and also past tense, but in the eighties QF was in big trouble, financally, bad morale, (seems like it never finishes doesn't it) but the then chiefs Menadue and Yates saw the natives were restless, and called a huge meeting outside H271. everybody who could go went, from the pilots to the seat installers to the engineers to the bloke on the gate, they told us what was happening, we told them what was happening. There had been bad decisions, no apprenticeship schemes, which turned out to be neally fatal to the company, QF was top heavy with middle management (again!) and the company was basically broke. But the amazing thing was we all TALKED, with each other, it did not matter what part of the company you came from, we, that day TALKED. And the outcome? We told management that we would all pull our weight if they did, and you will find this hard to believe in this era of me, me, me, we all did. All power not being used was switched off, all plumbing was checked for leaks, people stayed back but did not apply for overtime, the pilots almost did handstands trying to save fuel, (and this is going to send you over the side) in six months time the company started to come good with higher pax yield, and less money outgoing, and wait for it, these two bosses came around all the hangers, crew rooms, canteens, and offices for a couple of days THANKING everybody:D Of course there were cynics, and those who didn't give a S$#t, but a hell of a lot did care and acted upon it. Off course we are in a different era, but we are still human beings, and if you don't treat people like mushrooms,and you come out of your ivory tower and COMMUNICATE, people will start to listen, and if you behave like Menadue and Yates who included YOU in the running of the company, QF like a huge slowly turning ship will start to change her course with a far happier crew. It is not hard.I know I am dreaming, but jeez the right boss could do it and bring the company back to straight and level. We can all but hope:ugh::ugh:

[sickofqf]

Maybe the board could follow Continental's lead, sack Geoff 'Lorenzo' Dixon and install someone like Gordon Bethune who has turned Continental around by investing in staff morale, amongst other things. ( hasn't improved the cabin crew politeness on the Atlantic run though)


Oh, but wait, this is the board that thought it was a good idea for Qantas to have 11 billion dollars of debt on board when everyone, including Blind Freddy, could see an Aviation downturn within 18 months.......

ah well, better keep digging that deep hole so morale can continue it's journey............

So, who's gonna buy us when we go pear shaped.......Singapore or Emirates ?

[assasin8]

Hey, but at least we have a new logo!!!
:ugh:
Anyway, the rats at the top aren't worried... Even the Centro CEO walked away with 3 million! Too bad about the shareholders...:{

[lowerlobe]

The single most helpful thing that management could do is cease bonus payments to managers for doing the job they are paid to do. If the salary isn't enough for them they should seek employment elsewhere.

.... Wouldn't that be a novel concept!!!!!

[blackhander]

Couldn't agree more zoolander. Or if you must pay bonuses then make them long term so the blokes at the top can't just f:mad:k the place for short term gain then walk away

[wrobinsyd]

The one thing you can guarantee is that if QF do have a hull loss the only QF A/C you will be able to board will be the ones in Longreach...Goooone:{

Remember what happened to the largest airline in the world at the time Pan Am? The hull loss wasn’t even the airlines fault but it started the end...

GD will go down to Wagga to pour some beers to MJ:yuk:

5 proffit upgrades since the sell recommendation.....where are the watch dogs??

[Deck Zone]

Clown Act, your accuracy is brilliant. What you say is happening, day in day out.

Unfortunately the Dixon, Borghetti levels are always sheltered from reality by their Exec's and Managers below. Realistically Dixon / Borghetti and co. direct their Exec's, to carry out what ever. Because of the entrenched culture, these Exec's agree without question and pass it down to their Managers. (The Exec's are now off the hook. All care and responsibility passed on.)

These Managers now pass the order through to their Junior Managers (keen as hell). They appear to care, but once again responsibility is passed on. The directive continues to the Supervisors and they agree without question, as they're told where the directive came from. The directive is then passed down to their Junior Supervisors, Leading Hands etc, etc. These are the people that do know reality but are afraid to speak up, or have spoken up and been ignored, as they have attained the first rung on the ladder and are looking for the second.

The filtering affect continues until it reaches the lower levels of the establishment. When it goes pear shape, the cycle reverses and the blame game starts to travel up the tree. I didn’t know, they didn’t tell me, it wasn’t my fault, I told them. We’ve all heard it.

This is the culture that needs to stop.

You could almost say Qantas is in a dutch roll without a gyro.

Believe it or not, the answer is simple.

It’s not called Business Management, but it is a major part of it.

It’s called people Management.

I could list the any number of ‘units’ associated with this subject, offered by any TAFE or University you can mention.

We, and I mean Qantas as an organisation, are not doing this. Some individuals are, and we thank and respect them but they’re fighting the rest of the organization above and below.

Maybe it’s time to go back to basics, starting at the top?

[Sunfish]

First of all don't blame the holders of MBA's, it's a useful thing to have if you have practical knowledge of the industry in which you want to work, or are prepared for a long apprenticeship.

Deckzone is right, it's about people and recognition.

The trouble with Qantas, from my perspective, is that its been a politically controlled monopoly for a very long time, the big elephant in the room of Australian Aviation, and it's been desperately trying to profit from that fact at the same time as trying to hide itself. By this I mean if you are an Australian Pilot/Lame/CC,administrator/management accountant who are you going to work for?? Qantas or what else?

For example, if you are a Consulting forensic aviation accountant (of the sort the ACCC needs) where do you expect your jobs to come from? It's probably not news to any of you that this is an incestuous business because Australian Aviation is a relatively small community. Go up against Qantas Pal, and you will never work again. Same with the media - Qantas is a heavy advertiser, do you want to piss them off?

The political connections Qantas have are mind boggling and straddle both sides of politics, Federal and State. Simply look at the list of former Directors to get the flavour. Then there is the Qantas "Sydney centric" model which has greatly benefited NSW at the expense of the other states, thats bought them a lot of favours over the years, just like the Presidents lounge.

Now even this state of affairs could be changed relatively easily to the benefit of shareholders, the nation and staff, except that the narcissists snuck in and got control of the Board and Senior Management. Once in, they replicate themselves. Since they got in by arse licking, they are not averse to employing arse lickers to work on their own posteriors. Thats how you got a few extra layers of Executive/group/general/managers - all paying homage up the line.

Now one of the defining characteristics of narcissists (and a dead give away) is a total inability to empathise with people, narcissists instead "calibrate" people and tell them what they want to hear - and this only for people they think will give them self esteem in retunr. As for people "below" them on the pecking order - the don't count and are ignored, just like you are. You are just like talking dogs to them - you will be thrown a bone occasionally, but bite the hand that feeds you and you will be euthanased real fast.

The other characteristics of narcissists is that they will lie and cheat anyone easily and smoothly.

I only see the edges of this but it's telling - giving Grange to your senior managers at Christmas, but F*** all to your staff, writing a dirty letter to the inhabitants of Hamilton Island, throwing your weight around at airports, and trying to steal the company from under the nose of its shareholders are all telltale signs.

So now comes the problem, Qantas needs to change bigtime. It's fat, lazy, it's Sydney-centric, it's monopoly is becoming more and more a wart on the bum of Australia's progress because it is keeping increased competition (always a good thing) from happening.

The trouble is, the last people you want running a change agenda are narcissists because through their lack of empathy and total lack of interest in any sort of feedback that doesn't massage their ego, they screw it up....and according to what I read here, they have comprehensively screwed it up at operational levels.

To put it in simple terms, when you set out a change agenda for a business as big as Qantas, the first thing you do is map where you need to go - the vision, mission and your one, two, through to five year plan. Then you have to decide if you are going to make these changes quick and dirty, or slow and clean. By quick and dirty, I mean wield the axe in a matter of days/weeks/months and get it over with, then get on with life. Slow and clean means lots of staff consultation and feedback, voluntary redundancy, timetables, transparency, touchy feely stuff over years.

Trouble is narcissists always go for the stupid model - "slow and dirty" because it maximises the chances for them to revel in their power and massage their own egos. Thats why the LAMES/pilots/CC have been strung out over their EBA's - because its fun to screw with you, they take delight in your despair and obvious distress, it's amusing to them and reinforces their self image as masters of the universe.

There are other characteristics of narcissists, including a disrespect for the rule of law "Laws are for little people", which has already come out in the freight price fixing cartel, and may eventually come out is the ACCC got off its fat arse, or if one day you have a hull loss.

So I pity you, and I won't allow myself, my family or friends to fly on your aircraft for the foreseeable future.

[VH-Cheer Up]

It's interesting, QF may actually be feeling the glare on the back of senior management necks because this week they were doing some rather unusual market research.

I got a call from a Sydney based MR agency researching the airlines I use for business.

Not only did they ask about the usual things like convenient schedules, confidence about safety, in-flight service, etc, they also asked about my opinion of management, how I perceive management treats QF staff, and so on.

Experienced a lot of MR surveys in my time. Never heard those questions before.

Makes you wonder why, and what they propose to do with the information?

[max autobrakes]

Narcissists?, Sunfish,
I thought Qantas was being run by Sociopaths!:}


sociopath definition

(from the internet)

Antisocial Personality Disorder is also known as psychopathy or
sociopathy. Individuals with this disorder have little regard for the
feeling and welfare of others. As a clinical diagnosis it is usually
limited to those over age 18. It can be diagnosed in younger people
if the they commit isolated antisocial acts and do not show signs of
another mental disorder.

Antisocial Personality Disorder is chronic, beginning in adolescence
and continuing throughout adulthood. There are ten general
symptoms:
not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness
People with this disorder may exhibit criminal behavior. They may
not work. If they do work, they are frequently absent or may quit
suddenly. They do not consider other people's wishes, welfare or
rights. They can be manipulative and may lie to gain personal
pleasure or profit. They may default on loans, fail to provide child
support, or fail to care for their dependents adequately. High risk
sexual behavior and substance abuse are common. Impulsiveness,
failure to plan ahead, aggressiveness, irritability, irresponsibility,
and a reckless disregard for their own safety and the safety of
others are traits of the antisocial personality.

[Fris B. Fairing]

what they propose to do with the information

Approximately nothing - unless it's favourable of course.

[Lodown]

Clown Act, you wrote,

Most passengers are surprisingly understanding if you merely explain "what" is happening, "what" is being done to rectify the problem and roughly "when" you will get them to their destination. Maintenance defects and adverse weather are a fact of life, but most passengers are surprisingly understanding given a plain english explanation of the reason and it takes only a little thought and a minute of delivery.


I agree. To a point! And if there was another airline running the same routes I fly with half the number of flights, I'd be on it. In the past 10 years, I've gone from feeling somewhat welcomed on a Qantas flight to the stage today where I feel like a hostage. There's not a lot of sympathy from me if Qantas (as a company) has a hiccup.

[blow.n.gasket]

Anyone else get the impression that the "Dixon Plan" may not even be worth the paper it's printed on ,is starting to unravel faster than cheap knitwear in a cactus patch.:eek:

[Short_Circuit]

But if his plan is to get 35,000 employees disgruntled and wait for them to
bail out, hand over the the orange star mob, I guess it is working a treat.:mad:

[Capt Wally]

Interesting post 'max autobrakes"

That discription fits a lot of people, not just at the top of the food chain where the management tend to hang out!

From presedents to the average guy on the street those symptons are often seen. Unlike A/C where you could given enough resources make 'em all exactly the same, a lot of humans tend to be unpredictable, uncooperative & see self gain as the main goal. The word "want" is I believe the nucleolus of all humans desires/needs. QF's top dogs are no diff than the rest of 'em! Why do you think they put a monkey up in space first up?...........the human would 'want' something for it !

I guess a slight thread drift there but the QF fight 'them & us" is so becoming tiring !:bored:


CW

[surfside6]

There are are two types of management.......Professional and Domain.
Professional managers can manage anything from a Fish Shop to IBM.They have not worked their way up from the shop floor.They are top down and dont really know the busienss that well.
Domain Managers have "domain" knowledge.They started from the bottom and know the business backwards.
In the 50s in the states almost all successful companies were run by domain management.In the 70s things changed.Managers got a degree and entered the business at management level.American business lost its way.eg.Car maufacturing and Aviation.
Around the late 90s the pedulum began to swing back.Businesses began to re evaluate the way things were done.
Unfortunately in Australia we are always about 10 years behind.
Dixon needs to go (a Professional manger(sic).
He should be replaced by someone like Borghetti.One of a few surving QF Domain Style managers.
Leigh Clifford has been quiet(New QF Chairman).
The search for a successor(to Dixon) is well underway.
He is yesterdays zero
Lets hope that for the sake of the companys health that a Domain Style manager takes scrtotum faces' place
The domestic management skill set has failed.Dixon's adversarial style has failed.
Time for some positive energy.Leigh Clifford is not a fool
I live in hope(again)
"The Puritan Gift " by William Hopper makes for interesting reading

[Sunfish]

Surfer, I disagree. The best Managers have both professional management qualifications and "Domain" management skills. Ferry Porsche, of car fame, was both a "Herr Doktor Ingenieur" and a practical mechanic. Famous story was about a Porsche test car having troubles and Ferry got underneath to have a look. One of his engineers then inquired of Ferry what the problem was the answer was "get under here and see for your ****ing self".

Best senior managers I've ever had the pleasure of working for combined very high level MBA skills plus practical floor level knowledge, and you knew that if they asked you to do something, they could do it themselves if they had to. They knew the questions to ask, and had an uncanny ability to find your mistakes for you and gently (occasionally with a size twelve boot) put you back on the path to salvation.

I know from personal experience (as a dumbass MBA) what its like to run a business you know nothing about, and I'm still doing penance for it.

Best managers I've ever seen were Bondy, Ron Jackson and a few others at Ansett, but the best was a certain senior public servant I had the pleasure of working under for three years, and I think I would not be wrong in saying that his entire staff (including me) would have walked barefoot across broken glass for him if he had asked - and he was highly effective, as were we, in what we were doing.

I've also worked for a Board as a CEO, and had the pleasure of being taught the job by a couple of very experienced external professional Directors.

Having worked for some of the best, it's galling to hear about the antics of others.

[teresa green]

Max autobrakes, sounds like half the people I know! The next question, Dixon cannot stay much longer, the word is he is crook with a heart???? complaint. So who? all of the board were happy to flog QF (thank God they didn't) or they would be up S$%t creek now, so who. The word going around the big end of town (I have some mates there) is Cosgrove, (at least he is a operational thinker,) and safety would be high on his agenda coming from being Chief of Staff, Joyce, and wait for it, Dick Smith????? (Well at least he can fly) Borgetti of course and all the other bean counters, would be considered (naturally) interesting times.

[surfside6]

I wasnt talking about who the best were...I was highlighting the differences and the relative effectiveness of either.
It is axiomatic that taking the best qualities from both and removing the worst from both you will have the best.
Borghetti is a perfect example...worked up from the shop floor and educated himself along the way.
Seen in a toilet cubicle on the Harvard campus.(circa 1978)
Written in bold letters above the toilet tissue dispenser:
MBA ...please take one.

[cudza101]

Somewhat off topic but I saw a great variation on that at my Uni a few years ago. Just below 'Arts Degree - please take one' someone else had written 'Wipe your arse on it - it's now a Commerce Degree!'

In all my adventures across the campus this was only eclipsed by the timeless classic: 'whales are humans too!'