View Full Version : Mid-engined P51 project, 1945?

blue up
16th Jan 2008, 14:51
Reading a book from an eng (Eric Clutton) who designed his own homebuilt during the middle of the last century, I saw a section about RR trying to make a mid engined P51 from the bits left over after one P51 was munched by another in a queue for take-off plus the tail from one that was dropped on the nose whilst unloading from the docks at Liverpool.

Anyone got anything on this?


http://www.geocities.com/fredplane/click.htm is his homebuilt

diesel addict
16th Jan 2008, 17:06
I recall seeing a photograph of a mid-engined P-51 - but it might take me a loooong time to find it. If my memory is to be believed the caption quoted Griffon engine and Hucknall.......

16th Jan 2008, 19:53
There is a photograph of the machine on page 88 of Bill Gunston's 'Rolls Royce Aero Engines'
The quality is not very good, and I'm off to work soon, but I will try to scan the image and post it tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it!

18th Jan 2008, 17:27
Re. photograph of the mid engined Mustang.
Sorry I cant post the image, as I only have it on my local hard drive, not on a server.
I could e-mail/PM if you are interested.

blue up
21st Jan 2008, 09:45

care of.....tessa dot thomas at tesco dot net

23rd Jan 2008, 09:50
I've just been reading "Allied Aircraft Piston Engines of World War II" by Graham White and it mentions it:

"If a little is good, then more must be better, right?? This was the philosophy behind a scheme to install the Griffon into the P-51. Unlike the Griffon conversion of the Spitfire, the Griffon-powered P-51 entailed a totally new design incorporating only the flying surfaces from the P-51. An all new fuselage featuring a mid-engine layout with the pilot sitting in front of the engine, a la P-39, driving a six-blade Rotol contra-rotating propeller would have made it a new aircraft"

"Since the Griffon P-51 was intended to be a flying test bed, there was never any intention of placing it into production. Substantial work had been completed with the project was cancelled for the usual reason during this time frame - gas turbine development"

23rd Jan 2008, 12:20
Lots of info and pics here... (http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6529&view=next&sid=0f7ee7f04ff7ac930b7fd8173c9185ea)


Dick Whittingham
23rd Jan 2008, 20:05
No one sems to have commented on the CA (Australia) Griffon engined Mustang - with the engine in the usual place.


Brian Abraham
24th Jan 2008, 00:51
No one sems to have commented on the CA (Australia) Griffon engined Mustang

The aircraft (CA-15 "Kangaroo") was not a re-engined Mustang but a new design from the ground up. It started life with a P & W R-2800 but with the fuselage 60% complete the engine became unavailable. The Bristol Centaurus was considered briefly as a replacement before settling on the Griffon. Following flight trials the aircraft (only one built) was scrapped.


29th Jan 2008, 03:35
Whilst on the subject of Mustangs, was the Martin Baker MB-5 fighter look alike any kind of relation to the Mustang ?

This looks suspiciously like the Griffon powered Mustang spoken of...


There is also a persisting rumour that the Mustang was actually a design abandoned by the Nazis and sold to North American.

Brian Abraham
30th Jan 2008, 01:58
There is also a persisting rumour that the Mustang was actually a design abandoned by the Nazis and sold to North American.

Doubt it. Story may be confused with the fact the 51 was designed under the management of "Dutch" Kindelberger, an American born son of German immigrants. The design team was headed by Raymond Rice and the Chief Designer was a German (Bavarian) engineer who migrated to the US in 1930 by the name of Edgar Schmued. The 51 incorporated American developed technology, first use of a laminar flow airfoil developed by NACA for example and also the drag reducing concept for the raidiators. The basic concept of the 51 was arrived at during the course of a single night.

The MB-5 had no relationship whatsoever with the 51. The fuselage in fact used a construction method patented by Martin Baker.

Dick Whittingham
30th Jan 2008, 09:37
There's an interesting example of "form follows function" Three independent designs that finish up looking the same.

I saw an MB5 at AMSDU at Wattisham, in 1950, I think. The fuselage as indeed an MB patent, interchangeable steel tubes built into a girder with unstressed cladding, Meant to survive battle damage better and be easier to repair.

I wonder how CA got 2,500hp through that small propeller?


Brian Abraham
31st Jan 2008, 02:52
The CA-15 was fitted with a Griffon 61 rated at 1,540HP at take off (+12 lb boost), 2,035HP at 7,000 feet (+18 lb boost) and 1,820HP at 21,000 feet (+18 lb boost) and swinging a four blade Rotol compressed wood prop of 12 feet 6 inches diameter. In comparison some Spitfires fitted with the same mark Griffon had a four bladed prop as small as 10 feet 9 inches diameter.

Dick Whittingham
31st Jan 2008, 17:27
Sorry Brian, it just looked small and with a small chord. I suppose the aircraft is quite tall. I also suppose that earlier designs with ground clearance problems would, by the end of the piston era, have been using props with a high disc solidity - wide chord or 5 blades or contraprops